Instigator / Pro
1555
rating
8
debates
75.0%
won
Topic

The Universe is Older than 10,000 Years

Status
Debating

Waiting for the instigator's third argument.

The round will be automatically forfeited in:

00
DD
:
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HH
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Parameters
More details
Publication date
Last update date
Category
Science
Time for argument
Two weeks
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
15,000
Contender / Con
1500
rating
0
debates
0.0%
won
Description
~ 375 / 5,000

-BOP is Shared.
-Please no Solipsism.
-Please no Kritiks.
Definitions for the context of this debate:

-Universe - All existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos.
--Year (Earth) - The time taken by the earth to make one revolution around the sun.

These terms are not to be redefined at any point during this debate.

I look forward to an interesting debate.

Round 1
Pro
  Thank you WesleyBColeman for accepting this debate. I look forward to an interesting discussion.

  The universe is definitely older than 10,000 years. My argument is simple:

1.) The Universe can't be younger than the time it takes for light to reaches us.
2.) The speed of light in a vacuum has been consistently measured to be just shy of 300,000,000 meters per second [1]. 
3.) The distance light travels in a vacuum in one year is a lightyear.
4.) The distance to Standard Candles can be measured accurately, and is used to measure distance to galaxies.[2].
5.) The distance to the standard candle in this measurement is 8.1 megaparsecs, or 26,420,000 lightyears [3].
6.) Therefore, the Universe cannot be younger than 26,420,000 years.

--------------------

  I await my opponent's response.

 







Con

PREFACE

I would like to first thank my opponent Sum1hugme for the invitation to have this discussion on the topic of the age of the Earth and the Universe. Thanks to everyone reading and evaluating the facts brought to the table. I urge you all to look at the data anew and see if either the “Old-Earth '' or “Young-Earth '' theory is best befitted by it. As debate of an “Old-Earth'' and a “Young-Earth'' implies, this is about one area of the Darwinian and Christian worldview. However, in this debate, I wont be arguing for the existence or nonexistence of God or Jesus Christ, yet I will be using the framework (creationary) that the Earth was created, by God, in 6 days and has been around for less than about 10,000 years and my opponent will be using a different framework (evolutionary) that everything was created over a period of approximately 4.5 billion years for the Earth and 13.8 billion years total for the universe. There will be other debates to discuss the God of the Bible, Jesus, or a theistic worldview in contrast to an atheistic naturalistic worldview. We will both put forward the evidence for and against our chosen framework. Decide the winner based on whomever makes the best case for the evidence fitting their appropriate age-framework.

This opening statement is broken up into three parts. The first section, “The Flood”, is one of the most decisive lines of evidence for a young Earth so I will spend the majority expanding on its nuances. It will pertain to evidence in regards to rock sediment layers, the fossil record, polystrate fossils, formations that supposedly have taken billions of years like the grand canyon, rising mountains, or moving continents, and prove how all these phenomena are best explained within a short period of about a year through the process of the flood and the events that took place afterward. The second section, “DNA / Genetics”, will be more or less mentioned here but not in-depth. It will show the theory of genetic entropy, explore research on mutation science, and disprove the form of macro-evolution that most old age apologists espouse. Finally, the “Rebuttal” section will look at evidence that pertains to the creation and development of the Universe and life on Earth. All segments will have the aim to prove that the Biblical framework is a more likely candidate that is trusted historically, and to disprove the theory of an old Earth.

THE FLOOD

This first evidence isn’t intended to prove the Biblical flood, but demonstrate that cultures around the world have a flood story. I am backing up a worldwide flood with corroborating histories and myths. There are well over 300 flood myths. If the creation timeline is true, we can infer the ancestors of all these different people groups were indirectly told the accounts from Noah and his family all the way down to modern time. The stories were embellished by different cultures in different ways, some to an unrealistic mythic extent, but the essence is the same throughout.

For some examples, you can look to the continent of Africa, which has relatively few flood legends, African cultures preserving an oral tradition of a flood include the
Kwaya,
Mbuti,
Maasai,
Mandin,
and Yoruba peoples.

In North American cultures there also have flood myth including the
Choctaw,
Ojibwe,
Menomini,
Algonquin,
Mi'kmaq,
Anishinabe,
Ottawa,
Cree,
Knisteneaux,
Nipmuc,
Hopi,
W̱SÁNEĆ,
Comox,
Anishinaabe,
Inuit,
Nisqually,
and Eskimo peoples.

Then the list goes on all over the world in
Egypt,
the Middle East,
the Ancient Near East,
Mesoamerica,
South America,
China,
India,
Korea,
Malaysia,
Philippines,
Thailand,
Medieval Europe,
Finnland,
Polynesia,
etc.

It took Noah about 100-120 years to build the ark to God’s specifications. The ark’s size was about 154 meters (525 feet) long, 25.5 meters (87 feet) wide and 15 meters (52 feet) high with three decks divided into rooms. Recent studies estimate the total number of living and extinct kinds (Similar to the nomenclature of a biological family in taxonomy) [1] of land animals and flying creatures at about 1,500. With the “worst-case” scenario approach to calculating the number of animals on the Ark, this would mean that Noah cared for approximately 7,000 animals. 7,000 animals in the space of one and a half times the length of a football field, and four stories high. That checks out. [2]

The amount of water recorded checks out. In the Bible it says 'the tops of the highest mountains were overflowed by about 15 cubits (22 feet)'. The tallest mountain on the Earth is Mt. Everest, at 29,035 feet above sea level. As Andrew Seidel, an atheist attempting to debunk the flood, says here:

“That means that there had to be 813,875,076 miles³ of rain for the biblical flood. To put that in perspective, the oceans have about 321,000,000 miles³ of water. All the water on earth only adds up to about 332,500,000 miles³.
So for the biblical flood to have happened, the water on earth had to miraculously multiply by about 250%.”
~ Andrew L. Seidel [3]

Then, it looks like God does provide miracles. The Bible says that the 'fountains of the great deep' were opened and the rain fell from the heavens for forty days and forty nights. In a 2008 study, led by Steven Jacobsen a Northwestern University professor, a research team uncovered an underground reservoir of water within layers of Earth’s crust indicating the amount of water underground as an estimated three-fourths of the water on the Earth.

“If all the ringwoodite in the transition zone is as damp as the samples that Jacobsen and his team detected, that layer would hold three times as much water as all of the Earth’s oceans combined, reducing their share from 96.5% of all known water to a relatively paltry 24.8%. In other words, the ringwoodite discovery could quadruple the amount of water found on Earth. A blue planet, indeed.”
~ Eleanor Nelson [4]

If all the facts surprisingly check out about the Biblical flood, where’s the evidence in nature? The Bible states the waters rose a hundred fifty days until all the high hills under the of the Heavens were covered and the mountains were covered. We’re told that all land-dwelling air-breathing life perished except for those on the ark. We should, therefore, expect to find billions of dead plants and animals buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the Earth? And that’s exactly what we find. Billions of fossils buried in rock layers all over the Earth.

  1. We find whole rock layer sequences deposited rapidly in quick succession. The walls of the Grand Canyon, from the tapeats at the bottom to the kyba limestone at the top, supposed to represent three hundred million years of slow and gradual sedimentary deposition. When the plateau was pushed up, the rock layers were bent and folded - but they were folded without fracturing. They had to be soft, if they were bent without fracturing. That means they could have only just been deposited. Therefore, the three hundred million years could never have happened. All those rock layers had to have been deposited in quick succession during the flood year.
  2. Sea life buried high in mountains on the continents. Marine creatures that live in the ocean are found on mountains like the Makhonjwa Mountains that were supposedly formed 3.6 billion years ago. Plate tectonics is not the answer. These formations all over the world are burials for sea creatures that are not much older than and nearly identical to the modern sea creatures we see today. There are shellfish with limestone minerals contained in them that can only come from salt water i.e. the open ocean. [5]
  3. Long transport distances of sediments. The Coconino sandstone in the Grand Canyon. The same grains are believed to have been washed and transported a great distance far north from at least Wyoming. The Navajo sandstone in Zion National Park, the huge white cliffs, the same grains are believed to have been eroded and washed all the way from the Appalachians right across North America. These sediments travel from large reserves and stretch to a lower geographical position.
  4. Rapidly buried plants and animals. We find fossils of fragile creatures that would require a near instant burial such as plants, bees, bats, fish -- that haven’t finished having their meal of another fish also buried and fossilized, ichthyosaurs -- birthing to babies and they’re fossilized, and delicately preserved jellyfish. These things are found in mass, yet literally necessitate an instant burial.
  5. Rapidly deposited sediment layers across the continents. There are universal layers of sediment such as the redwood limestone layer. In that layer are many fossils. It is most obvious at the Grand Canyon. Yet that same limestone layer is found at the same place over in Pennsylvania, England, the Himalayas, etc. The chalk beds are another example. The Cliffs of David, Europe, the Middle East, Caslick Stan, Texas, the mid-Western United States, Western Australia, etc. The coal beds of Pennsylvania and West Virginia are also found in England and Europe right across the Ural Mountains. So wherever minerals are concentrated, they form identical layers in the expected place. The order of the layers for instance, doesn’t change if a layer is missing or added.
  6. Rapid or no erosion between sediment layers. For instance, in the Coconino sandstone in the Hermit shale there is a knife-edge, flat, featureless boundary between those two rock layers for miles through the grand canyon, yet the evolutionary geologists would have you believe they are separated by ten million years missing at that boundary. What would have happened during ten million years of weathering and erosion? You’d get a topography and not a flat featureless boundary. At the bottom of the Grand Canyon, the tapeats sandstone sits on the pre-flood rocks and we have evidence of huge erosion there. With boulders being picked up from the underlying rock layers indicating rapid erosion. There are many examples of this kind of rapid forming and erosion happening in both Washington (Best seen at Mt. Everest) and New Mexico.
DNA / GENETICS
   
It is first important to recognize, geneticists have proven that genomes rarely can add new information. There are 60 to 70 point mutations per generation on average. Point mutations are mutations through the process of DNA/RNA replication. Of those, 0.002% of them are beneficial to the organism. An even lower percentage of these “beneficial” mutations are agreed to have added new information. In order for a DNA strand to add new information, it must, theoretically, have a genome duplicate in some way and not undergo deletion. Then, it must recover the original strand in some capacity. Based on this common knowledge and an extrapolation of the number of average generations through time, it can be estimated that it would take hundreds of billions of years to evolve an animal to become a distinguishably different animal (what would be seen as a change in family in taxonomy).

“No human geneticist doubts man is degenerating.”
~ Dr. Kondrashov (Personal Communication)

“We’re inferior to cavemen, our fitness is declining at 1-3% per generation.”
~ Dr. Crow (Science)

“We’re degenerating at 1-5% per generation.”
~ Dr. Lynch (PNAS) [6]

“In terms of theory, and of actual biological data, they agree that biological systems should go down - not up. Almost none of those [mutations] are beneficial, think about typographical errors, you always lose information with basically zero benefit. Most mutations are deleterious, but most of them are only slightly deleterious. Slightly deleterious mutations are deadly because mother nature can’t see them and natural selection can’t filter them out so they accumulate like rust on a car.”
~ Dr. Sanford (S & F Podcast)

This proves evolution doesn't have solid footing, and the Darwinian mechanism is fallacious, therefore the theory of 4.5 billion years fails. This becomes more relevant when examining eras such as the “cambrian explosion”. Marriam-Webster defines it “the unparalleled emergence of organisms between 541 million and about 530 million years ago at the beginning of the Cambrian Period.” The issue appears when examining that paleontology has put forth a 1 billion - 10 million year time span for animals to evolve from the Proterozoic layer to the Cambrian layer and there are millions of species that appear in the Cambrian layer that have no obvious ancestral connection to the animals below it.[7,8]

There are also other complications to the time scale including, but not limited to fossilized trees called polystrate fossils that go through multiple sedimentary layers dug-out by archaeologists (polystrates have been found to have formed in weeks), rock compounds as well as fossils have less density and are larger, the higher they are in the sediment formation, and many dinosaur fossils are found with bone marrow and blood cells indicating a recent burial. This all builds a strong case that all these species were in fact alive at the near same time with no reason for billions of years.[9]

"There are 1 over 10 to the 77th power [variations of a genome]. If every organism in the history of the planet is estimated ten to the fortieth organisms. Ten to the fortieth possible mutations against a search space ten to the seventy seventh strong. You can search one ten trillion trillion trillionth of the possible combinations. You are more likely to fail to find one of the functional combinations even considering every possible organism that ever existed on Earth."
~ Dr Sephen Meyer [10]

A QUICK REBUTTAL
   
I commend my opponent for doing good research into the arguments against creation. However, this argument is not a knockout blow. I actually agree with all but the first premise of my opponent's opening argument. The reason I’d argue the Universe can be “younger than the time it takes for light to reach us” is because it is in the creation framework that God created all things in their mature form. This includes creating adult humans instead of two adolescents, plants to produce fruit, animals to coexist with microorganisms and bacteria in their bodies, and life to reproduce. I will admit that pro has a good argument here, but the idea of creating mature life is very Biblically founded and fits snugly into the “Young-Earth” narrative as well. Remember, we are looking at the evidence to determine the best explanation. The fact that light takes time to travel doesn’t prove that God couldn’t have created it in a mature state and the evidence I have provided today sufficiently overpowers this contention.

“When God finished creating Heaven and Earth and the Universe, God looked at all that he had made and said it was good. God had created the perfect environment for man to reside in, for he had created the earth and all that was in it for man. Therefore, God would have created a mature earth.”
~ Jerry Blount [11]

Thank you to everyone reading and considering my position. I am looking forward to Sum1hugme’s rebuttal.



Round 2
Pro
  Thank you WesleyBColeman for your response.

----------

0. GISH GALLOP

  My opponent has opened with a flurry of points about the young earth and evolution for us to discuss. I simply don't have enough space to tackle each individual flood myth and each individual quote mine, so I will instead focus on the main overarching problems with my opponent's case.

----------

1. REINTERPRETING THE RESOLUTION

  "I would like to first thank my opponent Sum1hugme for the invitation to have this discussion on the topic of the age of the Earth and the Universe. Thanks to everyone reading and evaluating the facts brought to the table. I urge you all to look at the data anew and see if either the “Old-Earth '' or “Young-Earth '' theory is best befitted by it. As debate of an “Old-Earth'' and a “Young-Earth'' implies, this is about one area of the Darwinian and Christian worldview"
  Here my opponent has reinterpreted the resolution from "the Universe is older than 10,000 years" to, "the Earth is older than 10,000 years." Here I will succinctly rebut all of my opponent's arguments in a single sentence: The Earth could be only 6000 years old and the Universe still be at least 26,420,000 years old.

"...my opponent will be using a different framework (evolutionary) that everything was created over a period of approximately 4.5 billion years for the Earth and 13.8 billion years total for the universe."
  This is simply not my case. My opponent is using evolution as an umbrella term for all the sciences he doesn't agree with. My framework is that the Universe can not be younger than the time it takes light to reach us. If there is light reaching us from 26,420,000 lightyears away, then it look the light that many years to get to us.

----------

2. FAILED REFUTATION

"The reason I’d argue the Universe can be “younger than the time it takes for light to reach us” is because it is in the creation framework that God created all things in their mature form... I will admit that pro has a good argument here, but the idea of creating mature life is very Biblically founded and fits snugly into the “Young-Earth” narrative as well."
  My opponent seems to argue that the god of the Bible created the Universe in such a way that starlight would simply appear far away. This is completely unsupported and is nothing more than an ad hoc rationalization that dips into the realm of reality denial, when the claim that "the universe is younger than 10,000 years" was refuted. This rationalization greatly increases my opponent's burden of proof, because they must now demonstrate that this god exists. Otherwise, there is no reason to believe he actually created the Universe to look old, but it really be young. I say we should stick with what we can observe to be true, than attempt to rationalize away those things we observe to be true. Additionally, this would make the god of the Bible intentionally deceptive, which I'm sure my opponent would dispute. 

----------

3. ARBITRARILY CHOOSING THE BIBLE

  "There are well over 300 flood myths.  If the creation timeline is true, we can infer the ancestors of all these different people groups were indirectly told the accounts from Noah and his family all the way down to modern time. The stories were embellished by different cultures in different ways, some to an unrealistic mythic extent, but the essence is the same throughout."
  My opponent claims that there are over 300 Flood Myths from around the world, but arbitrarily decides that the Biblical flood story is the only one that is the correct one, since all his "evidences" of the Biblical Flood could apply to many of these other myths.

----------

CONCLUSION

  In conclusion, The Universe is definitely older than 10,000 years. All my opponent did was try to prove that the earth is young, but the earth's age has no bearing on the Universe's age. His best attempt at refuting my argument was shown to be nothing more than a rationalization after his claim was shown to be false. My argument has not been refuted, and observation shows that the Universe is at least 26.420,000 years old. I look forward to my opponent's response.

Con
PREFACE

I would first like to thank my opponent again for this interesting discussion. Sum1hugme brought up several excellent points in his rebuttal which I would like to explore in great detail. I will now reiterate an important point from the preface of my opening statement.

“I will be using the framework (creationary) that the Earth was created, by God, in 6 days and has been around for less than about 10,000 years and my opponent will be using a different framework (evolutionary) that everything was created over a period of approximately 4.5 billion years for the Earth and 13.8 billion years total for the universe.”

It is very important that we not gloss over that point. Both pro and con are using what is known as a presuppositional framework. That is to say, either the naturalist: which includes the “Big Bang”/ Multiverse, abiogenesis, Macro-Evolution via common ancestry, and likely no supernatural element; or the creationist: which includes creation/Creator, adaptation of “kinds”, and Biblical historicity such as the resurrection and the Flood. My opponent does not have to “prove” the Big Bang or any other components so long as they can show they have better explanatory power. In that case, neither do I have to “prove” God or anything in the Bible is a fact. So long as I can show it has better explanatory power (meaning the evidence makes the most sense in my framework), I have won the debate. The same truth applies to Pro if his framework has better explanatory power after the arguments given.

RESOLUTION INTERPRETATION

“Here my opponent has reinterpreted the resolution from "the Universe is older than 10,000 years" to, "the Earth is older than 10,000 years." Here I will succinctly rebut all of my opponent's arguments in a single sentence: The Earth could be only 6000 years old and the Universe still be at least 26,420,000 years old.” ~ Pro

This is a fair point on its face, yet as I explained in the quick rebuttal section, the creation framework has the Universe as created in six days along with the Earth. To quote the Biblical creation framework’s handbook:

“In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.” Genesis 1:1

So in other words, pro claims I am making a compositional fallacy of equivocation when, rather, the age of the Universe and the age of the Earth are synonymously tied in the creation framework.

“This [using the evolutionary framework] is simply not my case. My opponent is using evolution as an umbrella term for all the sciences he doesn't agree with. My framework is that the Universe can not be younger than the time it takes light to reach us. If there is light reaching us from 26,420,000 lightyears away, then it looks like the light that took many years to get to us.” ~ Pro

The evolutionary, Darwinian, or naturalist framework is the only framework that asserts an old Earth and an old Universe. First, in order for an “old Universe” to be practical, evolution and other naturalist processes must work practically in said Universe. If we can prove that any of the critical naturalist processes do not work practically, then we can conclude that therefore an “old-Earth” is not practical. This, however, will only get us half the way there. We also must show that the “young-Earth” framework is practical. You have seen evidence of the Biblical Flood that indicates it is practical. You have not seen any good indication herein that naturalism is practical let alone more practical than creationism.

 “Evolutionary framework” is a colloquial name that is commonplace with the scientifically minded. To say that the Universe is at least 26,420,000 years old you would either demand evolution or coincide God. In which case, if there is a God, then there is no need for God to follow naturalist laws and it is then most likely, based on the flood evidence provided, that the Biblical creation framework is true. In this theoretical scenario, say that you have coincided there is a God. In that case, there would be no need for light to have traveled that estimated amount of time. God could create it all in an instant (and there is good textual evidence that God did).

Essentially, either evolution is true or there is a God and the Universe is young.

REFUTATION

“My opponent seems to argue that the god of the Bible created the Universe in such a way that starlight would simply appear far away. This is completely unsupported and is nothing more than an ad hoc rationalization that dips into the realm of reality denial, when the claim that "the universe is younger than 10,000 years" was refuted. This rationalization greatly increases my opponent's burden of proof, because they must now demonstrate that this god exists. Otherwise, there is no reason to believe he actually created the Universe to look old, but it really is young. I say we should stick with what we can observe to be true, then attempt to rationalize away those things we observe to be true. Additionally, this would make the god of the Bible intentionally deceptive, which I'm sure my opponent would dispute.”

This concept is by no means ad hoc. This is supported by the “literary interpretation” of Genesis. God begins the Biblical framework by explaining that the Earth, Universe, and light were all created on the first “day”. The word day, or in Hebrew, יום (yom) is commonly interpreted as either a 12 or 24 hour day. [1]

“1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.” Genesis 1:1-5

I would contest that saying “He actually created the Universe to look old” is simply speculative and ad hoc since, in the creation framework, God did not create the universe to “look old” he created it to be mature. To suggest, as a fact, something merely of conjecture about the Universe such as ‘It looks old’ does not increase the burden of proof of my argument. You said it yourself, “I say we should stick with what we can observe to be true.” We cannot prove the Universe is young or old with the subjective concept of what it looks like. The God of the Bible is not deceptive, He is in fact very clear about the age of the Earth and how it was made.

WHY THE BIBLE FLOOD-MYTH?

“My opponent claims that there are over 300 Flood Myths from around the world, but arbitrarily decides that the Biblical flood story is the only one that is the correct one, since all his "evidences" of the Biblical Flood could apply to many of these other myths.” ~ Pro

There are many reasons that the Biblical flood myth is more compelling. For instance, it is a world flood. I have provided detailed arguments for why a world flood follows logically based on physical and historical evidence. Also, in the Biblical story of the Flood, all the specific details of the ark and external circumstances are detailed and consistent when taking it as a historical narrative. The Biblical flood likely also came before other well known flood-myths. [2]

By examining the vessel structures of these ancient near-Eastern accounts, you find impractical versions of the arc such as a basket (Simmond’s Ark) or a box (Gilgamesh’s Ark), but in the account of Noah the boat is made to similar specifications of a modern cargo ship. A model of Noah’s Ark was tested on the open ocean and found seaworthy in this study. [3,4]

All the story elements “check out” as I mentioned in my earlier argument. Again, the Noah story is written such as a historical account with no embellishments and a matter-of-factness that sets itself apart from the other classical myths.


CONCLUSION

In conclusion, my opponent has given no reason for any reader to think that the Naturalist framework is better supported by the evidence, therefore the Universe is younger than 10,000 years. If Pro can not defend a critical naturalist process such as evolution, then there is no reason to vote for naturalism here. Again, to reiterate: Without naturalism the only answer is a creator. If there is a creator, there is good evidence provided that the Universe is young. Therefore, by coinciding to any creation process by result of rejecting naturalism, which by definition is coinciding to any form of creator, pro coincides to young-Earth in its entirety.

Again, thank you to Pro for this very fun and engaging debate. Thank you to each and every voter who is considering my position. I look forward to hearing Pro's response.

Round 3
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Round 4
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