Instigator / Pro
2
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Topic
#4120

The Gender Pay Gap doesn't exist.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Winner
2
4

After 4 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...

Barney
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Winner selection
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
4
1810
rating
49
debates
100.0%
won
Description

This is not my real position, but I will be assuming the role of Pro in this debate. I will be arguing that gender pay gap is not real.
Debate is on-balance.

Round 1
Pro
#1
Gender Pay Gap - Systemic differences between the average wages or salaries of men and those of women.

So the idea is that the circumstances which led to the existence of this gap is rooted in misogyny. The pay gap simply doesn't exist. 

When researchers and analysts specializing in gender studies factor in their results, very rarely do they consider the following. 

  • The occupation one holds,
  • Their rank in their organization,
  • How long they've worked there,
  • The education level they had to attain to do the job,
  • How many hours they work in the average week.
Even if statistically, women are found to earn less than men, it should be pointed out that correlation is not causation.

Con
#2
Preamble:
I shall both seek to prove that it exists, and that it is of statistical significance.

I shall prove my case across the following sections below
  1. Explanations do not deny existence
  2. Small amounts add up
  3. Same job for less money

Burden of Proof
IF there is no pay gap:
      THEN pro wins,
      ELSE con wins.


1. Explanations Do Not Deny Existence:
When arguing against the mere existence of something, evidence to explain details about the phenomenon in it of themselves support that said phenomenon exists.

As an example, pro’s own source admits that “We must acknowledge that the gap hasn't entirely been reduced to zero when other variables are factored in.” The adjusted pay gap being ~$0.07 [1].

Were the adjusted gap less than $0.01, I would agree that it has closed; even while such would still not deny the existence of it due to the unadjusted pay gap remaining (even while it could then rightly be called a myth).


2. Small Amounts Add Up:
At my last job my manager (a woman) was paid $2 less than me per hour of work. That comes to $4,160 per year (not counting overtime). That tiny difference made me able to get approved by the bank to buy a house.


3. Same Job for Less Money:
While the size of the gap varies across fields (in some it even inverts), it is measurable when doing an apples to apples career comparison within any field [2].

Parents
This holds across all fields, that women taking time off for children are twice as likely as men to have their careers negatively impacted [3].

Doctors
Female doctors earn less than male doctors, even when their career tracks are mirrors of each other.

According to Timothy Hoff, PhD:
“female doctors earn significantly less than men, often tens of thousands of dollars less annually, despite similar demographic and work-related profiles. This earnings gap is persistent across time, medical specialty, and country of practice” [4].

These differences average at $43K [2].


Rebuttals:
“very rarely do they consider the following”
See argument 1 above. When they do consider those factors and more, an average gap of 7% remains.

“Even if statistically, women are found to earn less than men, it should be pointed out that correlation is not causation.”
You’re not even wrong… [5]

A phenomenon (in this case the wage gap) is the observation within the scientific method [6], while we can come up with many hypotheses for the causation (such as conscious or unconscious misogyny), it does not change the fact of the phenomenon existing.

Rainbows can be explained by light reflecting off water particles in the air, and yet rainbows continue to exist.


Sources:
  1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/karlynborysenko/2020/03/31/great-news-ladies-the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-myth
  2. https://www.joblist.com/trends/visualizing-salary-gaps#SIDval-21
  3. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/25/gender-pay-gap-facts/
  4. https://journals.lww.com/hcmrjournal/Abstract/2021/07000/The_gender_pay_gap_in_medicine__A_systematic.11.aspx
  5. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
  6. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientific_method#How_to_do_science
Round 2
Pro
#3
There will be some professions where statistically, men make more than women. But this could just be attributed to the percentage of females in the particular industry rather than the significance of the gender itself.

As it currently stands, there are likewise professions where women make more than men. 

    • 1. Nuclear Medicine Technologist
      Nuclear medicine technologists give patients small doses of radioactive drugs and perform tests to help diagnose patients' ailments.
    • 2. Event Planner and Coordinator
      Event planners and coordinators organize and oversee tasks for various events, such as meeting with clients, booking venues, and negotiating with vendors.
    • 3. Licensed Social Worker
      Licensed social workers help patients manage mental health conditions and problems in their lives with therapy, counseling, and treatment plans and provide crisis intervention if needed.
    • 4. Psychiatric Aide
      Psychiatric aides provide care for patients with mental health conditions, including helping with daily living activities and observing their behaviors and concerns.

    The Gender Pay Gap doesn't exist, but the Reverse Gender Pay Gap does. 

    2. Small Amounts Add Up:
    At my last job my manager (a woman) was paid $2 less than me per hour of work. That comes to $4,160 per year (not counting overtime). That tiny difference made me able to get approved by the bank to buy a house.
    Hopefully, we can organize a boycott for this bank. When their stocks come tumbling down, they'll hopefully regret this error of judgment and reform their ways. 
    Con
    #4
    1. Explanations Do Not Deny Existence:
    Extend.


    2. Small Amounts Add Up:
    “Hopefully, we can organize a boycott for this bank.”
    Why? The bank has a simple calculation of monthly income vs monthly mortgage. An extra $4k per year put me in better standing than my manager. The bank did nothing wrong. To not factor in ability to pay, would lead to a repeat of the Subprime Mortgage Crisis from 2007-2010.


    3. Same Job for Less Money:
    Obviously extend. $43K difference between the pay rate of male and female doctors. Across all fields the pay gap averages at 7%.

    “The Gender Pay Gap doesn't exist, but the Reverse Gender Pay Gap does.”
    I already mentioned that the usual gender pay gap sometimes inverts. That it inverts does not magically transform it into something other than a Gender Pay Gap, since the gap in pay is still directly linked to gender.

    Calling the same thing “reverse” is doublethink. Two wrongs do not make a right. If one side of the body is harmed, we do not seek to injure the other to somehow “reverse” the damages via doubling them; rather that tactic just doubles in the injuries.

    At risk of committing Godwin’s Law, Neo-Nazis view themselves as the oppressed minority, and yet this intuitively doesn’t make their many deplorable crimes suddenly good and “reverse” or anti-racist. They’re just racist.

    When al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11, they did so from a position of comparative weakness; this didn’t transform their acts of terrorism into “reverse” terrorism to somehow decrease the total amount of terrorism in the world (save for a few less terrorists who died).

    Therefore, reverse-sexism is just more sexism. Be it harassment in the work place, or the same job for less money.
    Round 3
    Pro
    #5
    Forfeited
    Con
    #6
    Extend.

    And FYI, the Gender Pay Gap gets so very much worse outside the Western World!
    Round 4
    Pro
    #7
    Closing Arguments:
    Illusin of Pay Gap In different professions, the statistical evidence may very well show that women come to earn more than men or the reverse. This is relative to the percentage of a gender in a certain career rather than the gap being caused by gender-specific roles. 

    Thanks for the practice debate, Barney!
    Con
    #8
    Illusion of Pay Gap:
    It still averages 7% more for men than women in the Western World, adjusted for like items (matching careers, work hours, qualifications, etc.).

    From pro’s own source: the largest gap favoring women (also still a gender based pay gap) is a mere 3.3% or $2,600 [1]. Whereas, female physicians suffer a pay gap of $43,000 which is 16.5 times that suffered by men. The pay gap for the average female physician is roughly triple the combined pay gap for the top ten jobs favoring women over men in pay.


    Sources:
    1. https://www.bestcolleges.com/careers/jobs-where-women-earn-more-than-men/