Instigator / Pro
2
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Topic
#4120
The Gender Pay Gap doesn't exist.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 4 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...
Barney
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
4
1815
rating
50
debates
100.0%
won
Description
This is not my real position, but I will be assuming the role of Pro in this debate. I will be arguing that gender pay gap is not real.
Debate is on-balance.
Round 1
Gender Pay Gap - Systemic differences between the average wages or salaries of men and those of women.
So the idea is that the circumstances which led to the existence of this gap is rooted in misogyny. The pay gap simply doesn't exist.
When researchers and analysts specializing in gender studies factor in their results, very rarely do they consider the following.
- The occupation one holds,
- Their rank in their organization,
- How long they've worked there,
- The education level they had to attain to do the job,
- How many hours they work in the average week.
Even if statistically, women are found to earn less than men, it should be pointed out that correlation is not causation.
Preamble:
I shall both seek to prove that it exists, and that it is of statistical significance.
I shall prove my case across the following sections below
- Explanations do not deny existence
- Small amounts add up
- Same job for less money
Burden of Proof
IF there is no pay gap:
THEN pro wins,
ELSE con wins.
1. Explanations Do Not Deny Existence:
When arguing against the mere existence of something, evidence to explain details about the phenomenon in it of themselves support that said phenomenon exists.
As an example, pro’s own source admits that “We must acknowledge that the gap hasn't entirely been reduced to zero when other variables are factored in.” The adjusted pay gap being ~$0.07 [1].
Were the adjusted gap less than $0.01, I would agree that it has closed; even while such would still not deny the existence of it due to the unadjusted pay gap remaining (even while it could then rightly be called a myth).
2. Small Amounts Add Up:
At my last job my manager (a woman) was paid $2 less than me per hour of work. That comes to $4,160 per year (not counting overtime). That tiny difference made me able to get approved by the bank to buy a house.
3. Same Job for Less Money:
While the size of the gap varies across fields (in some it even inverts), it is measurable when doing an apples to apples career comparison within any field [2].
Parents
This holds across all fields, that women taking time off for children are twice as likely as men to have their careers negatively impacted [3].
Doctors
Female doctors earn less than male doctors, even when their career tracks are mirrors of each other.
According to Timothy Hoff, PhD:
“female doctors earn significantly less than men, often tens of thousands of dollars less annually, despite similar demographic and work-related profiles. This earnings gap is persistent across time, medical specialty, and country of practice” [4].
These differences average at $43K [2].
Rebuttals:
“very rarely do they consider the following”
See argument 1 above. When they do consider those factors and more, an average gap of 7% remains.
“Even if statistically, women are found to earn less than men, it should be pointed out that correlation is not causation.”
You’re not even wrong… [5]
A phenomenon (in this case the wage gap) is the observation within the scientific method [6], while we can come up with many hypotheses for the causation (such as conscious or unconscious misogyny), it does not change the fact of the phenomenon existing.
Rainbows can be explained by light reflecting off water particles in the air, and yet rainbows continue to exist.
Sources:
- https://www.forbes.com/sites/karlynborysenko/2020/03/31/great-news-ladies-the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-myth
- https://www.joblist.com/trends/visualizing-salary-gaps#SIDval-21
- https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/25/gender-pay-gap-facts/
- https://journals.lww.com/hcmrjournal/Abstract/2021/07000/The_gender_pay_gap_in_medicine__A_systematic.11.aspx
- https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
- https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientific_method#How_to_do_science
Round 2
There will be some professions where statistically, men make more than women. But this could just be attributed to the percentage of females in the particular industry rather than the significance of the gender itself.
As it currently stands, there are likewise professions where women make more than men.
- 1. Nuclear Medicine Technologist
Nuclear medicine technologists give patients small doses of radioactive drugs and perform tests to help diagnose patients' ailments.- 2. Event Planner and Coordinator
Event planners and coordinators organize and oversee tasks for various events, such as meeting with clients, booking venues, and negotiating with vendors.- 3. Licensed Social Worker
Licensed social workers help patients manage mental health conditions and problems in their lives with therapy, counseling, and treatment plans and provide crisis intervention if needed.- 4. Psychiatric Aide
Psychiatric aides provide care for patients with mental health conditions, including helping with daily living activities and observing their behaviors and concerns.
The Gender Pay Gap doesn't exist, but the Reverse Gender Pay Gap does.
2. Small Amounts Add Up:At my last job my manager (a woman) was paid $2 less than me per hour of work. That comes to $4,160 per year (not counting overtime). That tiny difference made me able to get approved by the bank to buy a house.
Hopefully, we can organize a boycott for this bank. When their stocks come tumbling down, they'll hopefully regret this error of judgment and reform their ways.
1. Explanations Do Not Deny Existence:
Extend.
2. Small Amounts Add Up:
“Hopefully, we can organize a boycott for this bank.”
Why? The bank has a simple calculation of monthly income vs monthly mortgage. An extra $4k per year put me in better standing than my manager. The bank did nothing wrong. To not factor in ability to pay, would lead to a repeat of the Subprime Mortgage Crisis from 2007-2010.
3. Same Job for Less Money:
Obviously extend. $43K difference between the pay rate of male and female doctors. Across all fields the pay gap averages at 7%.
“The Gender Pay Gap doesn't exist, but the Reverse Gender Pay Gap does.”
I already mentioned that the usual gender pay gap sometimes inverts. That it inverts does not magically transform it into something other than a Gender Pay Gap, since the gap in pay is still directly linked to gender.
Calling the same thing “reverse” is doublethink. Two wrongs do not make a right. If one side of the body is harmed, we do not seek to injure the other to somehow “reverse” the damages via doubling them; rather that tactic just doubles in the injuries.
At risk of committing Godwin’s Law, Neo-Nazis view themselves as the oppressed minority, and yet this intuitively doesn’t make their many deplorable crimes suddenly good and “reverse” or anti-racist. They’re just racist.
When al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11, they did so from a position of comparative weakness; this didn’t transform their acts of terrorism into “reverse” terrorism to somehow decrease the total amount of terrorism in the world (save for a few less terrorists who died).
Therefore, reverse-sexism is just more sexism. Be it harassment in the work place, or the same job for less money.
Round 3
Forfeited
Extend.
And FYI, the Gender Pay Gap gets so very much worse outside the Western World!
Round 4
Closing Arguments:
Illusin of Pay Gap - In different professions, the statistical evidence may very well show that women come to earn more than men or the reverse. This is relative to the percentage of a gender in a certain career rather than the gap being caused by gender-specific roles.
Thanks for the practice debate, Barney!
Illusion of Pay Gap:
It still averages 7% more for men than women in the Western World, adjusted for like items (matching careers, work hours, qualifications, etc.).
From pro’s own source: the largest gap favoring women (also still a gender based pay gap) is a mere 3.3% or $2,600 [1]. Whereas, female physicians suffer a pay gap of $43,000 which is 16.5 times that suffered by men. The pay gap for the average female physician is roughly triple the combined pay gap for the top ten jobs favoring women over men in pay.
Sources:
A safety vote or two would be appreciated.
What Barney said is accurate. If it’s so obvious that one side in this debate was arguing against what you would consider to be a truism, then there should be arguments in the debate that demonstrate that. If it’s only a truism because you say it’s a truism, that’s not a sufficient basis casting a vote in and of itself.
Whiteflame: -> "It is not enough to simply say that the debate is won before any argument is had"
You treated this debate as a forgone conclusion. Which lowers your BoP, but something said in the debate should still be named (quoted or paraphrased). It could literally be: "Pro tried to prove that statistic does not exist because it can be explained, con countered that leaves it still existing." While extremely minimalistic, this shows a sample of the argument tactics from both sides.
But my bias is in FAVOR of pro.
NONETHELESS, I have to aknowledge that con has won that because of the way pro phrased his resolution. The pay gap, as a statistic, DOES exist, even though it accounts for nothing and is no example of patriarchy.
Con pointed this one out with his first argument, well done!
Omg @ your new vote.
😂😂😂😂😂
If that’s the mindset you’re bringing to voting on this debate, then you’re necessarily biasing your view based on information you have and not considering the arguments given by each side. We all have biases, but saying that Pro lost this debate before a word was said is not sufficient for casting a vote on this site, no matter how lopsided you think the resolution is. You will either have to consider the arguments presented by each side, or you can choose not to award points and just post your thoughts here in the comments. Up to you.
Pro could HAVE np arguments, because he was doomed to lose from the very resolution. Resolution proves con right, i can't physically provide any point with either of them
**************************************************
>Reported Vote: Decisively_Conservatist // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 1 point to Con
>Reason for Decision:
As much as I agree with Pro, and it pains me to vote Con, I have to vote him because;
This topic cannot be proven by pro, since the statistic, even if explainable and not an example of patriarchy, still exists, even if it shows practically NOTHING.
>Reason for Mod Action:
The voter has to explain the decision based on arguments made by both sides in the debate. If there is a particular statistic that the voter believes demonstrates the point made by one side so thoroughly that it warrants awarding them the victory on this debate, the voter has to designate what that statistic is and why any responses from Pro were insufficient to address it. It is not enough to simply say that the debate is won before any argument is had.
**************************************************
A more in complex look at these issues and their causes may be found at:
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4165-the-gender-wage-gap-is-not-an-example-of-patriarchy
Dang, that’s high praise. Thank you!
Must warn you though that this debate will be one of my worst.
Man I gotta check in more often... barney is actually debating a good debater.
If you did any writeups, I'll gladly respond to them instead of just extending.
Also do you mind if I edit the tags on this debate? Categories have been replaced with tags, for which it looks like there can be several.
Your next round is due this morning.
I’m up against the highest level of Soresu.
I'll post my next round tomorrow morning.
I apologize if that came off rude, just simply something I noticed. I didn't realize it was "unrated".
Always good practice to put yourself out there once in awhile.
This is just a practice debate.
I'm intentionally putting myself in unfamiliar territory by arguing a subject I know nothing about.
Considering you never mentioned this is specifically focused on the United States (or specific area) has also put you at a somewhat disadvantage. They could refer to any country, state, job and use that as their entire argument. Though you possibly did this on purpose?