Instigator / Pro
21
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Topic
#4618

Resolved: On balance, Anakin Skywalker deserved his redemption.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
9
0
Better sources
6
2
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
3

After 3 votes and with 13 points ahead, the winner is...

Sir.Lancelot
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Rated
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
10,500
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Minimal rating
None
Contender / Con
8
1287
rating
345
debates
39.86%
won
Description

There is a controversial disagreement in the Star Wars Universe.

Many fans argue that Darth Vader, or Anakin Skywalker is beyond redemption.
Let's explore this in depth and determine the answer for real.

Pro argues that he deserved his redemption, Con argues he didn't.

No new arguments in the Final Round. Only rebuttals/retorts.

Round 1
Pro
#1
While Darth Vader and Anakin are considered the same person, they are two different people from a psychological standpoint. Carl Jung argues that there are parts of a person’s psyche which means they are individual pieces that make up a whole.

In the mind of The Chosen One.:

Persona- “Is the outward appearance a person displays. The Persona is regarded as the mask because it hides the true character of an individual.”

The persona is Anakin Skywalker. Popular Jedi Knight and war hero who is destined to bring balance to the Force. Outwardly, Anakin is an impetuous extrovert with a penchant for melodrama and hopeless romance.

Self- “The self is an archetype that represents the unified unconsciousness and consciousness of an individual. Jung often represented the self as a circle, square, or mandala.”

The Self is the complete version of Anakin Skywalker. Who he ultimately becomes at the end when he rejects his inner darkness and embraces the Light Side and love for his son, Luke. 


Shadow- “The Shadow is an unconscious aspect of an individual. Jung argued that the shadow “personifies everything that the subject [patient or individual] refuses to acknowledge about himself."”

This is Darth Vader. The rage and anger of Anakin Skywalker that leads him to commit murders impulsively and pure vengeance. 

Both of these make up who Anakin is as a person, but these are two distinct thought forms that eventually became separate identities. Darth Vader hated Anakin and made attempts to destroy him by removing his connection to the past and by obscuring his former identity. 

1 2  

Case in point, they are not the same person because the Self & Persona are separate from The Shadow. 

Definitions
Deserves- Do something or have or show qualities worthy of (reward or punishment).

Redemption- The action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil.

Redemption is not something that can be “earned.” It comes naturally when one rejects their evil and chooses to embrace the goodness. 

Framework
The resolution is that Anakin Skywalker deserved his redemption. How do we determine if Anakin was worthy of redemption? Firstly, we must follow a stricter definition of what redemption means. We apply a spiritual interpretation of the word, as redemption is not a matter of tallying good acts proportional to crimes/sins/bad acts because the standards of redemption are not transactional. 

Redemption is a choice that comes naturally when someone completely rejects their evil and fully commits to being good. As Pro, I must prove that in Anakin’s final moments, he did reject this evil whereas Con must prove that Anakin did not make the choice to redeem himself. 

Constructives

l. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are two separate people.

To prove this, we use two examples of dialogue. One scene is from The Prequel Trilogy and the other is from the Kenobi TV series.
  • In Revenge of The Sith, Yoda tells Obi-Wan, “Twisted by the Dark Side, Young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained. Gone, he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.” 1 (1:28)
  • In The Kenobi TV series, Obi-Wan addresses Vader as “Anakin.” To which Vader responds is that Anakin is gone and he is what remains. 2 (7:11) Obi-Wan addresses him as Anakin once more and apologizes, pleading for his former padawan. But then Vader proudly announces Anakin is dead, declaring himself the murderer. (7:56)

What does this tell us?
Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are not the same person. Anakin died the moment he turned to The Dark Side and that was when Vader was officially born. Anakin didn’t slaughter the younglings, innocent Jedi, or rebels. That was all Vader.

Anakin Skywalker is NOT responsible for the crimes of Darth Vader.

ll. Anakin Skywalker is The Chosen One.

  • Anakin was created and chosen specifically by The Force itself to bring Balance. 
  • It was Anakin’s destiny to put a stop to the ultimate evil.
  • This lessens Anakin’s autonomy and naturally means he is deserving of redemption because he was created/designed to be. 

lll. The Force is the ultimate authority and foundation for objective moral goodness.

As the Force is the most powerful thing in the universe and lives through all beings, it is not only the foundation but the standard for what objective morality should be. 
  • The Force declared Anakin worthy of redemption when it allowed him to pass into the afterlife as a Force Ghost.
Since the Force’s judgment is absolute, that means it is a fact that Anakin deserved his redemption. 

lV. Anakin fulfilled his destiny, according to the main prophecy.

By destroying Darth Sidious, Anakin has literally defeated The Devil of Star Wars and returned balance to the galaxy. Since this was Anakin’s main purpose in life and the very reason for his existence, he has accomplished his goal and reached self-actualization. 

  • Self-Actualization: “Self-fulfillment, namely the tendency for him [the individual] to become actualized in what he is potentially.” 3

V. Anakin Skywalker is a good person.

  • The most popular Jedi Knight.
  • Someone who saved Obi-Wan countless times during The Clone Wars and rescuer of the Senate.
  • A devoted and faithful husband to his wife Padme Amidala.
  • Free-spirited and open-minded, someone who was resistant to the Jedi’s complacency and dogmatic views.

Con
#2
Redemption by definition is being saved from evil.

If there is nothing which proves that Anakin was saved from evil, then we have no reason to believe he was saved from evil.
There is nothing which proves that Anakin was saved from evil. We have no reason to believe he was saved from evil. 

If Anakin Skywalker was much more evil than good, then it is more likely that evil remained inside of him.
Anakin Skywalker was much more evil than good.
It is more likely that evil remained inside of him.

If Anakin did a little bit of good and a lot of evil, then Anakin cannot be considered good by weight of deeds.
Anakin did a little bit of good and a lot of evil.
Anakin cannot be considered good by weight of deeds.

If we cannot know if Anakin killed Emperor due to change of heart or due to another anger outburst, then we cannot know if Anakin was saved from evil.
We cannot know if Anakin killed Emperor due to change of heart or due to another anger outburst.
We cannot know if Anakin was saved from evil.

If Anakin did good deeds and then turned to evil, then doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.
Anakin did good deeds and then turned to evil. Doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.

If doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him, then we cannot conclude that Anakin's last deed being good means that Anakin has no evil inside him.
Doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.
We cannot conclude that Anakin's last deed being good means that Anakin has no evil inside him.

If Anakin did good deeds in episode 2 and then turned evil in episode 3, then we have no reason to believe he wouldnt turn evil again after his good deed in episode 6.
Anakin did good deeds in episode 2 and then turned evil in episode 3.
We have no reason to believe he wouldnt turn evil again after his good deed in episode 6.

If Anakin saved Emperor and then helped him kill children and the entire civilizations, then killing Emperor in episode 6 does not make up for all the evil Anakin has done.
Anakin saved Emperor and then helped him kill children and the entire civilizations.
Killing Emperor in episode 6 does not make up for all the evil Anakin has done.

If Anakin's bad deeds outweight his good deeds by far, then we cannot say that Anakin was saved from evil.
Anakin's bad deeds outweight his good deeds by far.
We cannot say that Anakin was saved from evil.

If it would be better if Anakin was never born, then we cannot say that Anakin is good.
It would be better if Anakin was never born.
We cannot say that Anakin is good.
Round 2
Pro
#3
What distinguishes Vader from Anakin is unattachment and rage.

Therefore, if there if Anakin/Vader has no living relatives that he loves, then he is half Vader. Sidious is what keeps Vader restrained and fuels his rage through constant fear and torment which keeps him on The Dark Side. Without Sidious, we have no Vader.

Rebuttals

If there is nothing which proves that Anakin was saved from evil, then we have no reason to believe he was saved from evil.
There is nothing which proves that Anakin was saved from evil. We have no reason to believe he was saved from evil. 
As Luke Skywalker says to Vader, "I feel the good in you, a conflict." This is Luke appealing to the Anakin side of Vader.

When The Emperor is finally thrown to his death, that is Anakin taking over and making the choice to kill Darth Sidious and officially renouncing Darth Vader. Without Sidious, there can be no Vader.

As Anakin dies in Luke's arms, Luke says, "I cannot leave you, Father. I have to save you." To which Vader says, "You already have, Luke."
Therefore, we have evidence that Anakin was indeed saved from evil.

If Anakin did a little bit of good and a lot of evil, then Anakin cannot be considered good by weight of deeds.
Anakin did a little bit of good and a lot of evil.
Anakin cannot be considered good by weight of deeds.
Since Con does not object to my framework, he has by definition accepted that the evils were all committed by Vader, not Anakin.
Con also accepts that redemption is not transactional.

If we cannot know if Anakin killed Emperor due to change of heart or due to another anger outburst, then we cannot know if Anakin was saved from evil.
We cannot know if Anakin killed Emperor due to change of heart or due to another anger outburst.
We cannot know if Anakin was saved from evil.

If Anakin did good deeds and then turned to evil, then doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.
Anakin did good deeds and then turned to evil. Doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.

If doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him, then we cannot conclude that Anakin's last deed being good means that Anakin has no evil inside him.
Doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.
We cannot conclude that Anakin's last deed being good means that Anakin has no evil inside him.
Yoda lists all the qualities of The Light Side.:
Selflessness, self-knowledge, compassion, enlightenment, healing, benevolence, and mercy.

Now here are the qualities of The Dark Side.:
Anger, fear, aggression, and a lust for power.

We see at the end of Return of The Jedi, Anakin becomes a Force Ghost.:

How does one become a Force Ghost?
"Eternal life…"
"The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only through the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness."―Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn[16]"

The main goal of the Sith has always been eternal life, but none could achieve it. This means the only way to become a force ghost is to show compassion and love. If there were evil in Anakin's heart within his final moments, his transformation into a force ghost would not be possible. This means that Darth Vader died before Anakin did and Anakin's last few moments of life were done, without a shred of evil in his heart.

The Dark Side can be used to sustain one's life past the point of lethal injury, so if Darth Vader remained, it is likely he would've lived rather than died.
So in conclusion, Anakin was free from evil.

If Anakin did good deeds in episode 2 and then turned evil in episode 3, then we have no reason to believe he wouldnt turn evil again after his good deed in episode 6.
Anakin did good deeds in episode 2 and then turned evil in episode 3.
We have no reason to believe he wouldnt turn evil again after his good deed in episode 6.

If Anakin saved Emperor and then helped him kill children and the entire civilizations, then killing Emperor in episode 6 does not make up for all the evil Anakin has done.
Anakin saved Emperor and then helped him kill children and the entire civilizations.
Killing Emperor in episode 6 does not make up for all the evil Anakin has done.
Without The Emperor, Vader is never born.

The Emperor is the only reason for Anakin/Vader to stay evil. After killing the Emperor in Episode 6, Darth Sidious is dead. Which means Vader ceases to exist. If Anakin lived on, he would not turn evil again.

If Anakin's bad deeds outweight his good deeds by far, then we cannot say that Anakin was saved from evil.
Anakin's bad deeds outweight his good deeds by far.
We cannot say that Anakin was saved from evil.

If it would be better if Anakin was never born, then we cannot say that Anakin is good.
It would be better if Anakin was never born.
We cannot say that Anakin is good.
Anakin's good deeds outweigh Anakin's bad deeds.

Now whether Anakin's good deeds outweigh Vader's bad deeds is a separate matter, as they are two different people.

It is impossible to determine if Anakin not being born would be better than him being born. It is highly implied that his birth was better for the galaxy, as the true threat was never Vader, it was always Darth Sidious. If Vader was never born, Sidious would've found an apprentice to enforce terror while he eventually became Emperor anyway.
Con
#4
As the Force is the most powerful thing in the universe and lives through all beings, it is not only the foundation but the standard for what objective morality should be. The Force declared Anakin worthy of redemption when it allowed him to pass into the afterlife as a Force Ghost.
At best, we can conclude that Anakin was at the end of his life more good than evil in his heart.

However, if you say that Anakin is more good than evil, then that doesnt mean Anakin had no evil inside him.
You say that Anakin is more good than evil.
That doesnt mean Anakin had no evil inside him. 

If redemption means being saved from evil, then person who has even a little bit of evil inside him is not saved from evil and therefore has no redemption.
Redemption means being saved from evil.
Person who has even a little bit of evil inside him is not saved from evil and therefore has no redemption.

If we have no reason to believe that Anakin was saved from all evil, we cannot say that he deserved redemption.
We have no reason to believe that Anakin was saved from all evil. 
We cannot say that he deserved redemption.

If Anakin did so many bad things and killed so many people(billions of people) that he can never make up for it, then he doesnt deserve to be labeled as "saved from evil".
Anakin did so many bad things and killed so many people(billions of people) that he can never make up for it. He doesnt deserve to be labeled as "saved from evil".
Round 3
Pro
#5
Extend.
Con
#6
Extend.