Instigator / Pro
21
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Topic
#4618
Resolved: On balance, Anakin Skywalker deserved his redemption.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
9
0
Better sources
6
2
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
3
After 3 votes and with 13 points ahead, the winner is...
Sir.Lancelot
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,500
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
8
1309
rating
274
debates
40.51%
won
Description
There is a controversial disagreement in the Star Wars Universe.
Many fans argue that Darth Vader, or Anakin Skywalker is beyond redemption.
Let's explore this in depth and determine the answer for real.
Pro argues that he deserved his redemption, Con argues he didn't.
No new arguments in the Final Round. Only rebuttals/retorts.
Round 1
Pro
#1
While Darth Vader and Anakin are considered the same person, they are two different people from a psychological standpoint. Carl Jung argues that there are parts of a person’s psyche which means they are individual pieces that make up a whole.
In the mind of The Chosen One.:
Persona- “Is the outward appearance a person displays. The Persona is regarded as the mask because it hides the true character of an individual.”
The persona is Anakin Skywalker. Popular Jedi Knight and war hero who is destined to bring balance to the Force. Outwardly, Anakin is an impetuous extrovert with a penchant for melodrama and hopeless romance.
Self- “The self is an archetype that represents the unified unconsciousness and consciousness of an individual. Jung often represented the self as a circle, square, or mandala.”
The Self is the complete version of Anakin Skywalker. Who he ultimately becomes at the end when he rejects his inner darkness and embraces the Light Side and love for his son, Luke.
Shadow- “The Shadow is an unconscious aspect of an individual. Jung argued that the shadow “personifies everything that the subject [patient or individual] refuses to acknowledge about himself."”
This is Darth Vader. The rage and anger of Anakin Skywalker that leads him to commit murders impulsively and pure vengeance.
Both of these make up who Anakin is as a person, but these are two distinct thought forms that eventually became separate identities. Darth Vader hated Anakin and made attempts to destroy him by removing his connection to the past and by obscuring his former identity.
Case in point, they are not the same person because the Self & Persona are separate from The Shadow.
Definitions
Deserves- Do something or have or show qualities worthy of (reward or punishment).
Redemption- The action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil.
Redemption is not something that can be “earned.” It comes naturally when one rejects their evil and chooses to embrace the goodness.
Framework
The resolution is that Anakin Skywalker deserved his redemption. How do we determine if Anakin was worthy of redemption? Firstly, we must follow a stricter definition of what redemption means. We apply a spiritual interpretation of the word, as redemption is not a matter of tallying good acts proportional to crimes/sins/bad acts because the standards of redemption are not transactional.
Redemption is a choice that comes naturally when someone completely rejects their evil and fully commits to being good. As Pro, I must prove that in Anakin’s final moments, he did reject this evil whereas Con must prove that Anakin did not make the choice to redeem himself.
Constructives
l. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are two separate people.
To prove this, we use two examples of dialogue. One scene is from The Prequel Trilogy and the other is from the Kenobi TV series.
- In Revenge of The Sith, Yoda tells Obi-Wan, “Twisted by the Dark Side, Young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained. Gone, he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.” 1 (1:28)
- In The Kenobi TV series, Obi-Wan addresses Vader as “Anakin.” To which Vader responds is that Anakin is gone and he is what remains. 2 (7:11) Obi-Wan addresses him as Anakin once more and apologizes, pleading for his former padawan. But then Vader proudly announces Anakin is dead, declaring himself the murderer. (7:56)
What does this tell us?
Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are not the same person. Anakin died the moment he turned to The Dark Side and that was when Vader was officially born. Anakin didn’t slaughter the younglings, innocent Jedi, or rebels. That was all Vader.
Anakin Skywalker is NOT responsible for the crimes of Darth Vader.
ll. Anakin Skywalker is The Chosen One.
- Anakin was created and chosen specifically by The Force itself to bring Balance.
- It was Anakin’s destiny to put a stop to the ultimate evil.
- This lessens Anakin’s autonomy and naturally means he is deserving of redemption because he was created/designed to be.
lll. The Force is the ultimate authority and foundation for objective moral goodness.
As the Force is the most powerful thing in the universe and lives through all beings, it is not only the foundation but the standard for what objective morality should be.
- The Force declared Anakin worthy of redemption when it allowed him to pass into the afterlife as a Force Ghost.
Since the Force’s judgment is absolute, that means it is a fact that Anakin deserved his redemption.
lV. Anakin fulfilled his destiny, according to the main prophecy.
By destroying Darth Sidious, Anakin has literally defeated The Devil of Star Wars and returned balance to the galaxy. Since this was Anakin’s main purpose in life and the very reason for his existence, he has accomplished his goal and reached self-actualization.
- Self-Actualization: “Self-fulfillment, namely the tendency for him [the individual] to become actualized in what he is potentially.” 3
V. Anakin Skywalker is a good person.
- The most popular Jedi Knight.
- Someone who saved Obi-Wan countless times during The Clone Wars and rescuer of the Senate.
- A devoted and faithful husband to his wife Padme Amidala.
- Free-spirited and open-minded, someone who was resistant to the Jedi’s complacency and dogmatic views.
Con
#2
Redemption by definition is being saved from evil.
If there is nothing which proves that Anakin was saved from evil, then we have no reason to believe he was saved from evil.
There is nothing which proves that Anakin was saved from evil. We have no reason to believe he was saved from evil.
If Anakin Skywalker was much more evil than good, then it is more likely that evil remained inside of him.
Anakin Skywalker was much more evil than good.
It is more likely that evil remained inside of him.
If Anakin did a little bit of good and a lot of evil, then Anakin cannot be considered good by weight of deeds.
Anakin did a little bit of good and a lot of evil.
Anakin cannot be considered good by weight of deeds.
If we cannot know if Anakin killed Emperor due to change of heart or due to another anger outburst, then we cannot know if Anakin was saved from evil.
We cannot know if Anakin killed Emperor due to change of heart or due to another anger outburst.
We cannot know if Anakin was saved from evil.
If Anakin did good deeds and then turned to evil, then doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.
Anakin did good deeds and then turned to evil. Doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.
If doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him, then we cannot conclude that Anakin's last deed being good means that Anakin has no evil inside him.
Doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.
We cannot conclude that Anakin's last deed being good means that Anakin has no evil inside him.
If Anakin did good deeds in episode 2 and then turned evil in episode 3, then we have no reason to believe he wouldnt turn evil again after his good deed in episode 6.
Anakin did good deeds in episode 2 and then turned evil in episode 3.
We have no reason to believe he wouldnt turn evil again after his good deed in episode 6.
If Anakin saved Emperor and then helped him kill children and the entire civilizations, then killing Emperor in episode 6 does not make up for all the evil Anakin has done.
Anakin saved Emperor and then helped him kill children and the entire civilizations.
Killing Emperor in episode 6 does not make up for all the evil Anakin has done.
If Anakin's bad deeds outweight his good deeds by far, then we cannot say that Anakin was saved from evil.
Anakin's bad deeds outweight his good deeds by far.
We cannot say that Anakin was saved from evil.
If it would be better if Anakin was never born, then we cannot say that Anakin is good.
It would be better if Anakin was never born.
We cannot say that Anakin is good.
Round 2
Pro
#3
What distinguishes Vader from Anakin is unattachment and rage.
Therefore, if there if Anakin/Vader has no living relatives that he loves, then he is half Vader. Sidious is what keeps Vader restrained and fuels his rage through constant fear and torment which keeps him on The Dark Side. Without Sidious, we have no Vader.
Rebuttals
If there is nothing which proves that Anakin was saved from evil, then we have no reason to believe he was saved from evil.There is nothing which proves that Anakin was saved from evil. We have no reason to believe he was saved from evil.
As Luke Skywalker says to Vader, "I feel the good in you, a conflict." This is Luke appealing to the Anakin side of Vader.
When The Emperor is finally thrown to his death, that is Anakin taking over and making the choice to kill Darth Sidious and officially renouncing Darth Vader. Without Sidious, there can be no Vader.
As Anakin dies in Luke's arms, Luke says, "I cannot leave you, Father. I have to save you." To which Vader says, "You already have, Luke."
Therefore, we have evidence that Anakin was indeed saved from evil.
If Anakin did a little bit of good and a lot of evil, then Anakin cannot be considered good by weight of deeds.Anakin did a little bit of good and a lot of evil.Anakin cannot be considered good by weight of deeds.
Since Con does not object to my framework, he has by definition accepted that the evils were all committed by Vader, not Anakin.
Con also accepts that redemption is not transactional.
If we cannot know if Anakin killed Emperor due to change of heart or due to another anger outburst, then we cannot know if Anakin was saved from evil.We cannot know if Anakin killed Emperor due to change of heart or due to another anger outburst.We cannot know if Anakin was saved from evil.If Anakin did good deeds and then turned to evil, then doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.Anakin did good deeds and then turned to evil. Doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.If doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him, then we cannot conclude that Anakin's last deed being good means that Anakin has no evil inside him.Doing good deeds does not mean that Anakin has no evil inside him.We cannot conclude that Anakin's last deed being good means that Anakin has no evil inside him.
Yoda lists all the qualities of The Light Side.:
Selflessness, self-knowledge, compassion, enlightenment, healing, benevolence, and mercy.
Now here are the qualities of The Dark Side.:
Anger, fear, aggression, and a lust for power.
We see at the end of Return of The Jedi, Anakin becomes a Force Ghost.:
How does one become a Force Ghost?
"Eternal life…"
"The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only through the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness."―Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn[16]"
"The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only through the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness."―Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn[16]"
The main goal of the Sith has always been eternal life, but none could achieve it. This means the only way to become a force ghost is to show compassion and love. If there were evil in Anakin's heart within his final moments, his transformation into a force ghost would not be possible. This means that Darth Vader died before Anakin did and Anakin's last few moments of life were done, without a shred of evil in his heart.
The Dark Side can be used to sustain one's life past the point of lethal injury, so if Darth Vader remained, it is likely he would've lived rather than died.
So in conclusion, Anakin was free from evil.
If Anakin did good deeds in episode 2 and then turned evil in episode 3, then we have no reason to believe he wouldnt turn evil again after his good deed in episode 6.Anakin did good deeds in episode 2 and then turned evil in episode 3.We have no reason to believe he wouldnt turn evil again after his good deed in episode 6.If Anakin saved Emperor and then helped him kill children and the entire civilizations, then killing Emperor in episode 6 does not make up for all the evil Anakin has done.Anakin saved Emperor and then helped him kill children and the entire civilizations.Killing Emperor in episode 6 does not make up for all the evil Anakin has done.
Without The Emperor, Vader is never born.
The Emperor is the only reason for Anakin/Vader to stay evil. After killing the Emperor in Episode 6, Darth Sidious is dead. Which means Vader ceases to exist. If Anakin lived on, he would not turn evil again.
If Anakin's bad deeds outweight his good deeds by far, then we cannot say that Anakin was saved from evil.Anakin's bad deeds outweight his good deeds by far.We cannot say that Anakin was saved from evil.If it would be better if Anakin was never born, then we cannot say that Anakin is good.It would be better if Anakin was never born.We cannot say that Anakin is good.
Anakin's good deeds outweigh Anakin's bad deeds.
Now whether Anakin's good deeds outweigh Vader's bad deeds is a separate matter, as they are two different people.
It is impossible to determine if Anakin not being born would be better than him being born. It is highly implied that his birth was better for the galaxy, as the true threat was never Vader, it was always Darth Sidious. If Vader was never born, Sidious would've found an apprentice to enforce terror while he eventually became Emperor anyway.
Con
#4
As the Force is the most powerful thing in the universe and lives through all beings, it is not only the foundation but the standard for what objective morality should be. The Force declared Anakin worthy of redemption when it allowed him to pass into the afterlife as a Force Ghost.
At best, we can conclude that Anakin was at the end of his life more good than evil in his heart.
However, if you say that Anakin is more good than evil, then that doesnt mean Anakin had no evil inside him.
You say that Anakin is more good than evil.
That doesnt mean Anakin had no evil inside him.
If redemption means being saved from evil, then person who has even a little bit of evil inside him is not saved from evil and therefore has no redemption.
Redemption means being saved from evil.
Person who has even a little bit of evil inside him is not saved from evil and therefore has no redemption.
If we have no reason to believe that Anakin was saved from all evil, we cannot say that he deserved redemption.
We have no reason to believe that Anakin was saved from all evil.
We cannot say that he deserved redemption.
If Anakin did so many bad things and killed so many people(billions of people) that he can never make up for it, then he doesnt deserve to be labeled as "saved from evil".
Anakin did so many bad things and killed so many people(billions of people) that he can never make up for it. He doesnt deserve to be labeled as "saved from evil".
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Con dropped the framework that Anakin is distinct from Vader, then made a lot of points against Vader... This would be like a prosecution trying to focus on how vile a crime was, and ignoring all the evidence that someone else committed it (a little like The Central Park Five).
Con also tried to argue there is more evil in him than good, and yet the definition we have for redemption is about rejecting the evil. With him dying before he could turn back to evil, redemption was attained; and pretty much if attained than it was deserved (as much as it cannot be earned).
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
After the first round, I was voting for Con. I had no idea how Pro was going to get out of that first round. Con made some great points with respect to not knowing if there was any evil in Anakin's heart after the spiritual death of Vader. The points with respect to how Anakin killed the children, were something I wondered how it could be reconciled.
However Pro nailed it with respect to Anakin becoming a force ghost. I buy that argument. I buy that the evil caused in the name of Anakin was an unconscious development of Vader. I accept that Vader spiritually/consciously died, and Anakin repented in a manner for which he was absent of evil and therefore redeemed.
Con's argument was very repetitive. Sources go to Pro, as they were fantastic and I needed them to reach a decision.
Two great debaters, and a fun read. Thank you to both.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Con provides a lot of syllogisms, which can be a good mode of analysis, but they don't provide much evidence to substantiate the premises. It's made clear that Vader has done a lot of bad things, and even if I don't buy that Vader and Anakin are two separate people (or "identities," I suppose), Con doesn't challenge that framework. Even if Anakin has done more bad than good, Pro argues that redemption is a choice to reject evil, not just a tally of good and bad actions. The fact that Anakin became a force ghost establishes that he rejected evil—even if I buy what Con is saying about Anakin having some bad qualities left, I think it's established that he was more good than bad in his last moment.
Con doesn't give sources, so that point goes to Pro as well.
It was reported awhile ago, so not part of any current heat.
If memory serves, it was reported by some rando I offended elsewhere. Neither a Korean, nor a madman.
Oh no.
Why do I get the feeling that this report was not made by Best.Korea?
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>Reported Vote: Barney // Mod action: Not Removed
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>Points Awarded: 3 points to Pro (Arguments)
>Reason for Decision:
See Voting Tab
>Reason for Mod Action:
The voter explains their decisions utilizing arguments made by each side and focusing on how the points made by Con in response to Pro's setup of the debate (both of his framework and his definitions) are sufficient to award these points. That is sufficient under the voting standards.
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Damn, that was well done! I had not noticed more than one kiss between the twins…
BTW, you ever look up the crazy censorship of Sailor Moon?
Only if they're a Skywalker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFog6enc6HE
Incest in movies is definitely a 70's-80's thing... Like Star Wars and Back To The Future. 😂😂😂
Anyone else notice something strange with the Jedis when it comes to family?
This scene isn't as bad as I remembered it, but come on, you're in bed with Natalie Portman, and get all sweaty thinking about your mother?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v-vMCUvDTE
I completely forgot that Anakin became a force ghost. I only remembered it when you mentioned it in the debate. It did mess up my victory plan for the debate. Still, even if I did remember the force ghost argument before accepting, I still would have accepted the debate since it is a fun topic. People love and justify Anakin because he is fun, cute and hot.
I forgot to mention in the debate Anakin's opinion on dictatorship: "Well, if it works...😁".
What did you think of the resolution?
The Force is supposedly a metaphor for God, I think. But rather than a creator, it is the entirety of the source of creation itself.
Whether it is a separate deity with sentience is slightly unclear, but the lore implies that its intentions for the Future will become a reality.
I haven't read more than a tiny fraction of the lore, but since when is The Force intelligent?
And damn, I hate the idea of midichlorians so much. It goes into racial supremacy theories.
Anakin was created by The Force as a way to stop Sidious.
Darth Sidious and Plagueis were experimenting with midichlorians and The Force deliberately created Anakin Skywalker from Sidious's experimentation to prove the point that it could not be manipulated.
I will agree with con that he likely would have reverted had he lived.
There was some old comic where he lived and became a rebel hero, with his costume painted white... Lame!
However, he basically got Luke to assist in killing himself, before that could happen. And as pro pointed out, he was at the moment of his death good enough to become a Force Ghost.
By the way, Anakin was not created by the force, because Sidious is a mother fucker.
Thx Barney!
Thank you!
Thx homie!
Could you vote on this pls?
Thanks!
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