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@Sidewalker
"Kim Jong Un's obsession with missles always did seem sexual in nature."
It is most definitely not to liberate south Korea and destroy US imperialists.
Its because he is sexually attracted to missiles.
Pluralism Or Civil War?
Posts
Total:
57
We’ve talked about this before but the idea that there’s going to be a civil war in the United States any time soon is absurd, and no amount of mean words is going to change that. Democrats and Republicans don’t even have street fights at a large scale in the United States, now they’re going to go to war?
Look at the 1860 election which led to the first attempt at secession. Of the 11 confederate states in ten of them Lincoln, the winner, was not even allowed on the ballot and got ZERO votes. In the one state he was on the ballot, Virginia, he got 1% of the vote. And he WON the election. The reason the split happened was because opposition to Lincoln in the southern states was universal (well…among those who were allowed to participate in the decision making process.) Notably Lincoln got virtually no votes in the slave states that ended up sticking with the union but even a small minority of Lincoln supporters seemed to prevent a state from leaving the union over him. In Virginia where he got 1% of the vote, enough counties who hated the guys guts nonetheless wanted to stick with the union so badly that they ended up creating an entirely new state.
Compare this to 2020. In Trumps worst state, Vermont, he got just under 31% of the vote. In Biden’s worst state, Wyoming, he got 26% of the vote. So flip a coin twice, if it lands on the same face both times that’s LESS likely than a randomly selected voter in Vermont or Wyoming going against their state.
On top of that the US of the 1860s was a much different place with much much more poverty, food insecurity, and chronic, uncured disease. Birth and death rates were much higher—the median age of the population was decades younger and the culture matched that. Life was cheap and people had little to lose. Nowadays the people who would only go outside wearing a mask aren’t going to be starting a war any time soon, and the people who don’t even pull their kids out of schools they think are brainwashing them and just angrily post online aren’t going to start killing them. It’s a fantasy
That said the ideal solution for the US is more local/state government. Things seem to be evolving this way naturally as the federal government becomes more incompetent and more hamstrung with ever increasing red tape every year
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@Best.Korea
Its because he is sexually attracted to missiles.
It's penis envy, tiny dick, big missles.
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@Sidewalker
"It's penis envy, tiny dick, big missles."
Weapons have nothing to do with war, defense or liberation of the occupied south Korea by the imperialists.
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@thett3
the idea that there’s going to be a civil war in the United States any time soon is absurd
- illuminating comparison
- good point about state/local representation
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@thett3
I really don't see a civil war between the political parties, rather a split from the neo con/lib uniparty rule.
I kind of see a similar outcome to what happened to Russia in the 80's where the central planners in Moscow declared bankruptcy, and then allowed people to choose balkanization. How many more years do you think the pentagon will get away with losing 2 trillion dollars?
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@Reece101
@Best.Korea
Kim’s a girls name.
The English given name Kim, usually short for Kimberly, is generally considered to be female.
The Korean surname Kim or 김 (also sometimes latinized as Gim) is not neutral or gendered. It is a family name and so doesn't refer to a specific person, but to their heritage.
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@K_Michael
Yeah, I knew there was a difference.
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@Greyparrot
I really don't see a civil war between the political parties, rather a split from the neo con/lib uniparty rule.I kind of see a similar outcome to what happened to Russia in the 80's where the central planners in Moscow declared bankruptcy, and then allowed people to choose balkanization. How many more years do you think the pentagon will get away with losing 2 trillion dollars?
Yes.
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@Greyparrot
Something like the troubles in Ireland could happen but I think being Online tends to exaggerate how extreme the divide is. Most of the time in real life when people with opposing politics are together they just don’t talk about it or if they do they manage to be mostly civil about it. Most people have at least someone on the other side of the aisle in their own family even if they’re the black sheep
I’ll start believing widespread low level civil war type violence is probable when people start trying to assassinate Supreme Court justices and senators since something like that could actually move the needle much more than killing some random innocent person. It happened once in 2017 when that insane lib came within inches of murdering a large number of republican congressmen but fortunately nobody has tried anything since.
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@thett3
I agree, there won't be a violent civil war, but it's likely a balkanization of USA will happen when the dollar collapses under the incompetency of Washington DC.
It's highly likely the USA will experience what the old Soviet Union experienced in the 80's. California alone already has a strong political balkanization movement.
Tim Draper indicated that the initiative was motivated by the belief that California is ungovernable as is with legislature unable to keep up on issues in all the state's regions, especially in areas such as job creation, education, affordable housing, and water and transportation infrastructure. Furthermore, he believed that the current state government is getting out of touch with the people of California. According to Draper, splitting up the state would allow the resulting new state governments to be closer to their people than the current California state government
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@Greyparrot
The smaller the territory, easier to manage it is.
So naturally, it makes sense to divide a country on smaller territories governed by regional governments.
Its an attractive option compared to centralized government that does all the work and gets all the blame.
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@Best.Korea
and gets all the blame.
Never happens. The federal government is about as accountable as a 19 year old American woman.
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@Greyparrot
The federal government is responsible for distributing money to states.
If the money lacks, the federal government gets the blame.
Hence, it would be easier if the states were more independent. Then the state governments would get the blame if they fail to use tax money from their territory for benefits of the citizens.
We are stuck in the cycle where states blame the federal government, and federal government blames the states.
Ironically, the division of power that was meant to keep multiple governments in check resulted in governments being able to blame each other for failures.
With independence comes responsibility, and with dependence comes the blame of everyone by everyone.
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@Best.Korea
the division of power
There is no division of power. The lobbyists control and write every page of legislation, especially legislation 5000 pages long.
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@Greyparrot
Well, the entire point of the constitutional federation republic is that there is division of power, at least in some way.
If division of power fails, one should work to establish it again.
Lobbying is common in democracy, but still there are different groups there too and not all have same interests.
There would be more division of power if states had more economical independence.
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@Best.Korea
If division of power fails, one should work to establish it again.
Hence Balkanization.
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@oromagi
But an honest history of America tells us that's not so. The left is a little more pro-gay, a little less pro-affirmative action than it was 50 years ago but in most ways the leftist majority holds the same beliefs they did 50 years ago.
- Although I may not particularly disagree with you, the Right sees it differently. Practices which are increasingly being adopted by the Liberals weren't a thing shortly prior, albeit the principles & ideals are the same. Hence, practices such as incest & pedophilia, for instance, will eventually be adopted as well, according to the Liberal ideals. It may not seem to you like it, but the Right see these progressive adoptions as a shift away from moderation into extremes. – For me, as an outsider, it's all the same. It's just that the one generation wasn't indoctrinated into accepting the practices that the next generation is, therefore they tend to reject them, & so on.
American Leftism is still in good alignment with the politics of Roosevelt and LBJ. Jimmy Carter is still a beloved grand old man within the Democratic Party.
- I strongly doubt they would agree with what this happening today...
The Republican Party just threw out Liz Cheney, and considers McCain and Romney RINOs with no place in the radically reformatted Republican Party. Bush, Reagan, Nixon have no place in the modern Republican Party. When Barry Goldwater ran for President in '64 he was the absolute extreme Right of acceptable Americanism post-McCarthy and by 1995, that same Goldwater told the GOP" "Do not associate my name with anything you do. You are extremists, and you've hurt the Republican party much more than the Democrats have." Justice John Paul Stevens often noted that he was appointed in 1975 as the most Conservative member of the Supreme Court and retired in 2010 as the most Liberal member of that same court without ever changing a single political principle.The Right WIng can play "I'm rubber, you're glue" all they want but the fact is that the Right Wing has departed from traditional American values.
- "Traditional" huh! What exactly are those traditional values they departed from?
There is a pendulum quality to history across centuries, from left to right and back again but there also a decisive leftist narrative. Greece was more liberal than Egypt. Rome was more Liberal than Greece. The Ummayad Caliphate was more liberal than Rome. The Renaissance was more liberal than the Caliphate. The Revolutionaries were more liberal than the Renaissance, etc.
- All this is pure drivel. But I'm all ears, tell me exactly in what sense were the ones more liberal than the others?
As Martin Luther King noted, “the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” That justice is always more free and more equal and therefore more liberal than the generation before.
- Justice & Equality are contradictory notions, by definition. To have one is necessarily not to have the other.
Authoritarians seize back power now and again but history and technology and sheer fucking numbers make authoritarianism increasingly less effective and every swing right a little bit shorter.
- Yet, the liberal secular modern West is vastly more authoritarian than virtually any government system in History. Public degeneracy is not the sole criterion for Freedom. In fact, it isn't at all.
Obviously false. Look at Biden's recent compromises with Manchin on permitting deals and new oil pipelines. Biden pisses off the Left-wing more than the Right. Pelosi put Cheney in charge of the Jan 6th hearings to make sure that the non-radical Republican party had its say. Only MAGA rejects sharing power, as is evident in the knife fights they are about to have over the Speakership and then the 2024 Nomination.
- This is childish nonsense.
Only radicals obey the law from fear of force. Most Americans don't aspire to criminal acts and see the police as protective.
- Blahblahblah. Law IS force, if you don't like it, then disobey it & see.
That's quite false and quite revealing about your values.
- Doesn't change the fact that "American ideals" is a meaningless label. Sure enough, for someone who hold these values so high & dear you incessantly avoid having to defend them in a debate.
but Georgia is more representative of future demographic trends and swinging left.
- Red herring. You claimed current trends are evidence for future trends. Besides the fact that this is in itself a fallacy, I brought you a counter example. Florida was blues, now it's deep red. Deal with it.
20 million few Americans identified as White in 2020 then 2010.12% fewer Americans identify as Christian than ten years ago
- What does that have to do with what I said? Absolutely nothing.
The very fact that you are willing to call McCain and Romney "enemies of America" and "the failure of Democracy" demonstrates an fast moving and unsustainable radicalism. These statements are totally out of alignment with American values.
- You can't possibly be this self-absorbed & ignorant. 'Enemies' are obviously foreign agents. Democracy shatters under foreign interference, especially from a stronger enemy. Reason why the West are eager to spread democracy across the world, for it's much easier to interfere with elections & spread propaganda to remove disobedient governments in case of democracy, than to send troops when you have a dictatorship.
Yeah but only fascists think that way. Liberals know governments can never live up to individual idealism and don't look to government to represent their values.
- I take this as a concession.
Liberals wrote the Bill of Rights to prevent exactly that. Liberals don't play that.
- You keep forgetting I am not American nor am I bound by American propaganda. I have not gone through the heavy indoctrination you have been subject to all your life since birth. You are trying to defend your system using labels, when these mean nothing to me. The value is in the meaning & reality behind those labels. Whatever label you wish to use, it is still a fact that non-Liberal non-Secular non-Western rational is excluded in all your systemic institutions & Liberal Secular Western rational is imposed therein. If your ideals & values are so good, then use words & convince others with persuasion on a an equal playing field, not by force of law & violence. But you can't, else those ideals will disappear.
Nor is your critique any kind of rebuttal
- There is nothing to rebut, when no case has been made.
Obviously false. All of the longest lasting continuous government in the world today are Liberal Republics. Most autocracies die with their dictator- Russia will soon be wanting a new government, for example.
- This is factually false. Even if true, I am speaking from design, your response is a straw-man. What exactly is your idea of long lasting government? The Abbasids lasted 750 years, the Ottomans 600 years...
Our Republic is older than the notion of "Whiteness" and will endure long beyond that social construct. There is nothing about America that inherently White or Christian or male.
- Are you dumb?! The point is Secular Egalitarian Liberalism is self-destructive, by design, for it necessarily leads to extinction.
Capitalism is an economic describing one competitive aspect in human nature. Capitalism exists whether governments want it or not, as Russia and China soon discovered in the 20th century. You can harness competition or you can suppress competition but you can't kill that human instinct any more than you can kill our instinct for charity or teamwork or self-improvement.
- Does everything you say have to be off-topic! What does any of this have to do with what I said?!! The Western practice of Capitalism is unsustainable, if you disagree then prove me otherwise instead of going into tangents. Maximizing your present self-interests at the expense of everything else, will necessarily result in exactly that. Everything else will be sacrificed, including your future & the future of your descendants.
You think the American Revolution produced "meager results"?
- This is a failed attempt at defending those results. Instead, you can tell us exactly how shouting "all men are created equal" then proceeding to exclude all but some men: Blacks, Irish, Catholics... &/or non-Nationals... is not meager results. I am all ears.
Damn, you really don't know the first fucking thing about world history, do you?
- World History =/= American History. You people live in a giant bubble, you have absolutely no clue. But you feel you're right, then you might wanna defend your beliefs in a debate, which you keep avoiding.
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@PREZ-HILTON
A Laissez Faire system would if done correctly result in a bunch of small independent business owners, similar to what we had prior to the industrial revolution,
- How do you reconcile this with industrial systems & processes?
but with less ability to treat workers as terrible as was done back then.
- Workers were treated worse post-industrial revolution, not prior. This due to unregulated corporate Capitalism, where maximizing profits at the expense of the workforce was seen as an ideal.
That's a fair criticism and one of the downfalls to conservatism, and at risk of revealing my power level, I think conservatives are valuable allies, but ultimately would lean towards some sort of populist fascism. Being consistently behind liberals by 20 years is a losing strategy.
- In what way is it losing? Is this about appeal to the younger generation?
The conservatism of a person like John Adams is more sustainable but ultimately is becoming extremely rare among conservatives .
- Specifically what & how?
So first we would divide red by blue states and then work towards policies that would bring about some sort of technocratic right wing fascism that is a mix of evola style governance and transhumanism.
- Transhumanism is the end goal of Liberalism. You sure have some conflicting positions. How do you reconcile this with traditional society?
Me personally. I just try to use the tools of modern society while resisting things that are destructive, such as cutting my dick off, having meaningless sex, doing drugs and letting life pass me by, by using the television and internet as some sort of opium of the masses. I also have a strong revulsion towards consumerism.I wouldn't go back to uphold my ideals. The destructiveness of liberal ideologies is something we have proven we can not tolerate. We showed them freedom of speech and they used it to cancel conservatives and kick them out of the public square for example. We allowed them to use corporations to attack American society with their filth.
- So you wish to stop at some points in the past regarding particular things like sexual freedom & consumption driven capitalism, but keep the other aspects of present modern life?
In my society, every member would work towards what is best for the country and we would make laws to ensure that happens, but we would have to control culture as well.
- Through state management, state regulation, or self-government?
Maybe sterilize family lines which are proven to be bad.
- You're a lot more liberal than you think... What you just said stems from the assumption that humans act according to a predetermined nature, either automatically or intrinsically. Which, also originates in two more basic principles. One, that Truth does not have an objective reality, for it is nurtured (by power in post-modernist view), therefore, Truth is subjective: whatever is, is as you believe it is, & hence you act according to what is true to you, your true self, your predetermined nature. Two, that Morality has no higher reference, i.e. knowing what ought to be (right & wrong) isn't contingent on a higher power; Therefore, either we already know what is right & wrong by our nature (for instance doing good makes us happy), or we can know what ought to be the same way we know what is (for instance using Science), or right & wrong are whatever we make them to be according to our personal truth. In all cases, what ought to be is known not through revelation but through human nature.
Indoctrinate people in schools where the marxists have previously infiltrated and corrupted.
- You wanna do as they did?
In fact basically take what the CCP has done, but instead of doing it selfishly for themselves and their party, invert it to do what is good for America.
- You can just say do what the CCP has done, they too say we are doing it for China...
You can just say do what the CCP has done, they too say we are doing it for China...
Now that USA is losing the backing of the dollar by losing much of the world commodity share of oil and arms to Russia and China, do you think they will balkanize peacefully like the old Soviet Union, or do something radical like launch nukes?
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@thett3
We’ve talked about this before but the idea that there’s going to be a civil war in the United States any time soon is absurd, and no amount of mean words is going to change that. Democrats and Republicans don’t even have street fights at a large scale in the United States, now they’re going to go to war?
- The present is, therefore the future is, is a fallacy. I am aware there is no civil war at this current moment, that's not the object of contention here. In fact, the ingredients of a potential civil war are all present. The nation-state project proved unable to harmonize & equalize people of different backgrounds & belief systems, despite unprecedented amounts of mass indoctrination from early age & universal regulations imposed on all subjects.
Look at the 1860 election which led to the first attempt at secession. Of the 11 confederate states in ten of them Lincoln, the winner, was not even allowed on the ballot and got ZERO votes. In the one state he was on the ballot, Virginia, he got 1% of the vote. And he WON the election. The reason the split happened was because opposition to Lincoln in the southern states was universal (well…among those who were allowed to participate in the decision making process.) Notably Lincoln got virtually no votes in the slave states that ended up sticking with the union but even a small minority of Lincoln supporters seemed to prevent a state from leaving the union over him. In Virginia where he got 1% of the vote, enough counties who hated the guys guts nonetheless wanted to stick with the union so badly that they ended up creating an entirely new state.Compare this to 2020. In Trumps worst state, Vermont, he got just under 31% of the vote. In Biden’s worst state, Wyoming, he got 26% of the vote. So flip a coin twice, if it lands on the same face both times that’s LESS likely than a randomly selected voter in Vermont or Wyoming going against their state.
- Distinction without difference. All this division you are referencing is completely arbitrary. Civil war doesn't necessarily have to be alined with state borders or according to constituencies... It's civil war, chaos... Your second point also undermines your premise. You just prove voting trends can change & shift drastically.
On top of that the US of the 1860s was a much different place with much much more poverty, food insecurity, and chronic, uncured disease. Birth and death rates were much higher—the median age of the population was decades younger and the culture matched that. Life was cheap and people had little to lose. Nowadays the people who would only go outside wearing a mask aren’t going to be starting a war any time soon, and the people who don’t even pull their kids out of schools they think are brainwashing them and just angrily post online aren’t going to start killing them. It’s a fantasy
- You are saying very sensible things here. Indeed, security makes people dull & weak, but it also leads to hardship. This is the fate of all civilization. Security engenders prosperity, which engenders luxury, which leads to decadence, & therefrom collapse. But this is not the reason why civil war is inevitable in the US, the same way civil war in Japan, for instance, is not a foreseeable occurrence. Japanese people are harmonious, chances of such civil unrest even in hardship is not likely. The US, however, is deeply divided along a hundred different lines: race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender, affiliation, ideology, party...etc. In fact, rarely has any society in History been as divided, almost down to the individual. This is inevitable under a liberal egalitarian system, where the building blocks of society is broken down to individuals, from the traditional communities in the past. – Having communities adopt such ideals is bad enough. A good example of this is the Balkans, once they adopted Western style Secularism (hence notions of nationalism, egalitarianism, liberalism...etc), they plunged into a two century long civil unrest which is still going, when they were coexisting mostly in peace for 5 centuries under the Ottomans. Now, imagine this but a thousand times worse. Instead of the dozen or so factions in the Balkans, your country has as may factions as there are individuals... & is currently in decline. It's just a matter of time.
That said the ideal solution for the US is more local/state government. Things seem to be evolving this way naturally as the federal government becomes more incompetent and more hamstrung with ever increasing red tape every year
- Civil wars is a Human Condition, & are much more frequent in the West. It is not strange that the US has gone a century & a half without major civil war, but it is foolish to assume this would continue much longer into the future. In effect, being surrounded by vastly weaker states & two vast oceans of buffer zone from the closest enemy who can pose the slightest threat, having the most powerful police state state the world has ever seen & the most passive population through extreme vetting & mass indoctrination, enjoying leadership in the world stage & continuous prosperity for almost a century... will naturally afford the US some level of immunity to such civil wars; but only so far. Transforming society from communities into individuals may give you an apparent harmony & unity in the short term, but it just multiplies the differences, from dozens of factions between communities, to millions of factions between individuals. – Some of the worst civil wars in History occur during every dynastic change in China, albeit not much in between. In your case, things such as local government & legal pluralism & community-based society is diametrically antithetical to the Secular Liberal Egalitarian system you are currently under. You need a radical dynastic revolution to attain those changes... You want the appearance of Balkanization without what it entails. – The US is an empire pretending to be nation, therein their downfall. All successful empires in History were pluralists, not universalists. This is the only way a state can bring & maintain different peoples under its dominion.
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@Yassine
-->@oromagiBut an honest history of America tells us that's not so. The left is a little more pro-gay, a little less pro-affirmative action than it was 50 years ago but in most ways the leftist majority holds the same beliefs they did 50 years ago.- Although I may not particularly disagree with you, the Right sees it differently.
- You don't disagree with me but still you persist in presenting an opinion you know to be false. Why?
Practices which are increasingly being adopted by the Liberals weren't a thing shortly prior, albeit the principles & ideals are the same.
- Don't you need to state what practices you are talking about?
Hence, practices such as incest & pedophilia, for instance, will eventually be adopted as well, according to the Liberal ideals.
- Pure mentally ill truth-hating bullshit. 9 out of 10 pedophiles are fellow family members or fellow church members. Children are far, far safer in the company of Liberal adults than Conservative adults. Statistically speaking, a young girl is much safer from attack with a gay stranger than with father, brother, uncle, or minister. The overwhelming amount of child sex assault comes from the big strength differences between adult males and young teenaged or preteen girls.
- All of the major anti-pedophilia legislation of the 20th and 21st century comes from the Left-wing, mostly from Feminists. Walter Mondale is credited with most of the laws cracking down on child sex assault in the late 20th century, overcoming fierce Conservative resistance to legislation. Throughout Europe, Liberals outlawed child sex over Conservative's strong objections.
- Modern MAGA is far more tolerant of child sex assault than any other political party in American History- Donald Trump's 20 year close friendship with Jeff Epstein and Alex Acosta's Republican cover-up, Matt Gaetz's relationship with 17 year old girls and 12 year old boys. Jim Jordan's cover-up of hundreds of sex assaults by Richard Strauss while Jordan was wrestling coach. Lauren Boebert's husband's conviction for exposing his genitals to underage girls while Boebert watched, the whole Republican Party knew about Mark Foley and covered it up, the same with Denny Hastert,
- Just look at how many Klan leaders and Neo-Nazis and other right-wing extremists go down for child rape and child pornography. The numbers are not a coincidence. Nor is it a coincidence that Jim Watkins, the most probable long-term personality behind QAnon and the QAnon servers' administrator also ran stormfront.com from the same server rack and also made his millions sneaking child porn into Asian markets. There is a strong relationship between right-wing extremism and child sex abuse.
- For every liberal you can find guilty of child sex assault I can hand you twenty conservatives so your delusional psychic predictions about Liberals and pedophilia can get fucked. If you want to stop pedophilia, put women into power.
I strongly doubt they would agree with what this happening today...
- Carter is still alive and strongly endorses the current Democrat platform. Your doubt is not evidence-based.
What exactly are those traditional values they departed from?
- an existent moral order that precedes political exigency
- family values
- free trade
- strong national defense, strong support for military alliances, particularly against European dictators and Russian autocrats.
- strong support for democracy and capitalism internationally
- Conservatives preserve custom, convention, continuity.
- strong defense of Western cultural tradition
- prudence is a virtue
- restraints on political power by loyal opposition
- change must be reconciled with tradition
- etc.
All this is pure drivel. But I'm all ears, tell me exactly in what sense were the ones more liberal than the others?
- Long story and we have established you are ignorant regarding most of world history but just look at the increases in percentage of citizens, stakeholders in the economy, individual and property rights, power sharing.
Justice & Equality are contradictory notions, by definition. To have one is necessarily not to have the other.
- Sorry, bud. You'll never be an American. America is founded on the principle of justice for all, equality as the just state.
Yet, the liberal secular modern West is vastly more authoritarian than virtually any government system in History.
- ridiculous and ignorant
Obviously false. Look at Biden's recent compromises with Manchin on permitting deals and new oil pipelines. Biden pisses off the Left-wing more than the Right. Pelosi put Cheney in charge of the Jan 6th hearings to make sure that the non-radical Republican party had its say. Only MAGA rejects sharing power, as is evident in the knife fights they are about to have over the Speakership and then the 2024 Nomination.- This is childish nonsense.
- sad little ad hom
- Blahblahblah. Law IS force, if you don't like it, then disobey it & see.
- seems like you've given up
T Doesn't change the fact that "American ideals" is a meaningless label. Sure enough, for someone who hold these values so high & dear you incessantly avoid having to defend them in a debate.
- clearly, you have not read much of this website over the past three years
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/3677-the-usfg-should-decertify-the-2020-election
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/3681-forced-integration-should-have-not-been-done
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/3665-the-aug-8th-fbi-search-of-mar-a-lago-was-due-process
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/3593-the-jan-6th-killing-of-ashli-babbitt-was-lawful-and-appropriate-to-circumstance
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/3563-the-2020-election-was-not-stolen
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/1816-death-penalty-solely-for-murder
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/3450-which-were-worse-the-blm-protests-riots-or-the-january-6th-capitol-protests-riots-atoromag
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/3482-are-races-equal
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/3365-free-speech-should-not-include-hate-speech
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/2532-qanon-is-bullshit
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/2154-americans-ought-to-feel-national-pride-7-42k-characters
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/1600-is-the-only-way-to-get-rid-of-trump-a-violent-revolution-he-seems-intent-of-a-coup
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/1589-california-should-secede
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/724-life-liberty-and-the-pursuit-of-happiness
You claimed current trends are evidence for future trends
- You claimed gay marriage was evidence of future pedophilia
What does that have to do with what I said? Absolutely nothing.
- You said white christians were easily turned, I pointed out that is a rapidly shrinking demo. Try to keep up.
Reason why the West are eager to spread democracy across the world, for it's much easier to interfere with elections & spread propaganda to remove disobedient governments in case of democracy, than to send troops when you have a dictatorship.
- non-sequitur
I take this as a concession.
- because you fail to comprehend
You keep forgetting I am not American nor am I bound by American propaganda.
- non-sequitur
Obviously false. All of the longest lasting continuous government in the world today are Liberal Republics. Most autocracies die with their dictator- Russia will soon be wanting a new government, for example.
What exactly is your idea of long lasting government? The Abbasids lasted 750 years, the Ottomans 600 years...
- Improve your reading comprehension: I said "continuous government in the world today" Abbasids and Ottomans are no longer in the world today but I don't expect that you have noticed.
What does any of this have to do with what I said?!!
- You said Capitalism is unsustainable. I pointed out that Capitalism is human character so always present in every human society. Don't know how you failed to comprehend.
World History =/= American History. You people live in a giant bubble, you have absolutely no clue. But you feel you're right, then you might wanna defend your beliefs in a debate, which you keep avoiding.
- non-sequitur straw man. You said the American Revolution was historically inconsequential. I pointed out your historical illiteracy.
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@Yassine
America is founded on the principle of justice for all, equality as the just state.
This is why Democrats release insane criminals back onto the streets, because equality is more important than Justice.
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@Yassine
How do you reconcile this with industrial systems & processes?
I am not sure where those things conflict, so I can't tell you.
- In what way is it losing? Is this about appeal to the younger generation?
Obviously because if you are always 20 years behind liberals, you will just have the country turn into what liberalism wanted for it 20 years ago. In 20 years you'll have conservatives defend what liberals are pushing now.
Specifically what & how?
Adam's conservatism is just what you would see in somebody like John McCain . It's hard to explain and these people are often mistaken for moderates. I don't feel like digging into the philosophy of Adams at the moment and I can't explain it well.
Through state management, state regulation, or self-government?
Mostly just by sitting back and watching things and then reacting to any sort of disloyalty. Suddenly a corporation puts their own self interests above that of the country. Bang, step in and execute the CEO for treason. If it happens again, bang execute the board that elects CEOs.
As far as reeducation of the population is concerned, just intense philosophy classes beginning in elementary and going until they get out of highschool.
Transhumanism is the end goal of Liberalism. You sure have some conflicting positions. How do you reconcile this with traditional society?
The end goal of liberalism is what you see in other liberal controlled countries. Countries such as North Korea, Venezuela and Cuba. If you look at the economic freedom index which measures how capitalistic a country is, than the countries doing the worst job, such as the ones I mention, are the end goals of liberalism.
Transhumanism is at the end of the day about radical life extension. Liberalism kills babies before they are born, attempts to kill the elderly through euthenasia and is generally anti-life.
So you wish to stop at some points in the past regarding particular things like sexual freedom & consumption driven capitalism, but keep the other aspects of present modern life?
Your paradigm is wrong. I would execute people who cut off the dicks of 9 year olds . At what point in American history were people executed for routinely cutting off children's penises?
You're a lot more liberal than you think... What you just said stems from the assumption that humans act according to a predetermined nature, either automatically or intrinsically. Which, also originates in two more basic principles. One, that Truth does not have an objective reality,
Assuming that humans act in accordance with a predetermined nature has nothing to do with viewing reality as objective or subjective. It probably falls more along the lines of whether I believe in predeterminism or not and predeterminism is a philosophical belief probably more in line with what an objectionist would think.
Truth is subjective: whatever is, is as you believe it is, & hence you act according to what is true to you, your true self, your predetermined nature.
You can say my nature is predetermined or not, it is irrelevant as to whether truth is subjective or not. Either genetic predeterminism is true or it isn't. If it is true, it doesn't mean subjectivism is true. In fact I think it makes subjectivism less true.
Two, that Morality has no higher reference, i.e. knowing what ought to be (right & wrong) isn't contingent on a higher power; Therefore, either we already know what is right & wrong by our nature (for instance doing good makes us happy), or we can know what ought to be the same way we know what is (for instance using Science), or right & wrong are whatever we make them to be according to our personal truth. In all cases, what ought to be is known not through revelation but through human nature.
You are saying things can't be reconciled which can be. It is logical to both believe in a higher power and to believe in that God wrote himself onto our heart. The reason all of humanity share moral values is because God gave us those moral instincts. God did not give everyone throughout history a Bible or a Koran.
He did give everyone an instinct for what is moral. We know murder is wrong. We knew that before you ever read the Koran. You knew that because God gave you instincts for right and wrong. Every society on the planet even ones unexposed to an abrahamic religion knows that killing for fun is wrong, every single society knows that raping baby's is wrong.
Having this internal moral instincts does not mean you get to determine what is right and wrong. It means God has already determined right and wrong and wrote it on your heart. There is a reason that Cain tried to cover up his crime before a single commandment was written. God has wrote the laws on his heart and he knew murdering his brother was wrong according to his own internal morality set by God. He chose to ignore the laws God wrote on his heart.
Humans don't get to determine right and wrong. Allah already did it, and nobody gets a free pass even if they have no access to holy books, because like Cain who knew what was wrong prior to the 10 commandments, we also have the law written on our hearts.
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@oromagi
You don't disagree with me but still you persist in presenting an opinion you know to be false. Why?
- There is overlap of agreement. Your opinion is false too.
Don't you need to state what practices you are talking about?
- I assumed you got it... Anything not conducive to family & community & Truth.
Pure mentally ill truth-hating bullshit. 9 out of 10 pedophiles are fellow family members or fellow church members. Children are far, far safer in the company of Liberal adults than Conservative adults. Statistically speaking, a young girl is much safer from attack with a gay stranger than with father, brother, uncle, or minister. The overwhelming amount of child sex assault comes from the big strength differences between adult males and young teenaged or preteen girls.All of the major anti-pedophilia legislation of the 20th and 21st century comes from the Left-wing, mostly from Feminists. Walter Mondale is credited with most of the laws cracking down on child sex assault in the late 20th century, overcoming fierce Conservative resistance to legislation. Throughout Europe, Liberals outlawed child sex over Conservative's strong objections.Modern MAGA is far more tolerant of child sex assault than any other political party in American History- Donald Trump's 20 year close friendship with Jeff Epstein and Alex Acosta's Republican cover-up, Matt Gaetz's relationship with 17 year old girls and 12 year old boys. Jim Jordan's cover-up of hundreds of sex assaults by Richard Strauss while Jordan was wrestling coach. Lauren Boebert's husband's conviction for exposing his genitals to underage girls while Boebert watched, the whole Republican Party knew about Mark Foley and covered it up, the same with Denny Hastert,Just look at how many Klan leaders and Neo-Nazis and other right-wing extremists go down for child rape and child pornography. The numbers are not a coincidence. Nor is it a coincidence that Jim Watkins, the most probable long-term personality behind QAnon and the QAnon servers' administrator also ran stormfront.com from the same server rack and also made his millions sneaking child porn into Asian markets. There is a strong relationship between right-wing extremism and child sex abuse.For every liberal you can find guilty of child sex assault I can hand you twenty conservatives so your delusional psychic predictions about Liberals and pedophilia can get fucked. If you want to stop pedophilia, put women into power.
- Again with the tangent rants. Totally irrelevant. Regardless of the inaccuracy of your claims, child assault or whatever that is =/= pedophilia. Pedophilia is a necessary outcome of your Liberal values. & you will adopt it the same way you adopted all the sexual perversions before it, after these were priorly abhorred. This is purely contingent on social stigma, hence exposure. Calling for sexual freedom of your preferences & denying others theirs is antithetical to Liberal principles, & also hypercritical. Incest & Pedophilia are just as valid as any, & your stigma is just as oppressive. In fact, Incest was a normal expression of love -original love- among Zoroastirans, & pedophilia towards boys (pederasty) was an ideal in Ancient Greece.
- In effect, the initiative cause of "Free Love" or "Sexual Freedom" was born out of the French postmodernist movement lead by Derrida, Foucault, De Beauvoir, Sarter...etc, represented in the US in people like John Money & others. It did not aim to just legalize homosexuality. They called for decriminalization of all consensual relationships, including between adults & minors & zoophilic relations, for sexually morality is beyond the sanction of power, the state. In 1977 a petition to abolish consent laws in France was issued to the French Parliament & signed by 70 prominent intellectuals... In the US, attempts to abolish consent laws were lost in the Supreme Court in the late 1980s, when chastity based consent laws were replaced by statutory-based ones, thus consent age was maintained. Their rationale being: 1 that maintaining consent laws, which were priorly set to protect the chastity of young girls, when chastity is no more a concern, is to create a criminal class of adults without any actual crimes committed, predicated that adults are criminals by virtue of being just adults – 2 that to claim a child is incapable of consent is preposterous, for they are sexually aware & do effectively & normally consent to sexual acts, as established by propagated research at the time by the likes of Money – 3 that consent laws are predicated on a contractual condition, of mutual agreement, without a contract, hence void laws. Indeed, all sound & valid arguments – 4 that such state involvement in sexual policing which denies the individual freedom of persons is unjustifiable, for it is arbitrary at the whims of elites & the powers that be.
- Moreover, Pedophilia was not a big deal back then, Gerard R. had relations with 6 year olds in the late 70s & was sentenced 3 months in prison. The extreme bias against pedophilia & underage intercourse in the West developed as a cultural substitution of the previously held bias against chastity violators & homosexuals. There are some 200 recognized paraphilia (perversions) only meaningful to those concerned. Pedophiles, just like the rest, also want sexual freedom of sake of love. – The fact that you don't like it is only owed to you not being indoctrinated to accept it as you have been in accepting homosexuality & all the rest.
Carter is still alive and strongly endorses the current Democrat platform.
- General endorsement =/= agreeing with everything they do.
Your doubt is not evidence-based.
- No such thing.
an existent moral order that precedes political exigencyfamily valuesfree tradestrong national defense, strong support for military alliances, particularly against European dictators and Russian autocrats.strong support for democracy and capitalism internationallyConservatives preserve custom, convention, continuity.strong defense of Western cultural traditionprudence is a virtuerestraints on political power by loyal oppositionchange must be reconciled with traditionetc.
- I'd be interested in seeing you defend these claims against a conservative in a debate. Though, I fail to see how.
Long story and we have established you are ignorant regarding most of world history
- Don't project your ignorance. You haven't got the faintest idea what World History looks like.
but just look at the increases in percentage of citizens, stakeholders in the economy, individual and property rights, power sharing.
- In that case, your liberal modern states are close to the bottom of that list. If you disagree, then I am sure you are ready to defend your position in a debate, say: modern West vs. traditional Caliphate?
Sorry, bud. You'll never be an American. America is founded on the principle of justice for all, equality as the just state.
- LMAO! I am starting to think you're actually dumb. You can keep shouting this until the cows come home, it won't change the fact that Justice =/= Equality, BY DEFINITION. You get to pick one, you can't have both. Equating unequals is necessarily unjust. – This explains why you are against legal pluralism, you prefer forced equalization according to your values... Disgusting!
Yet, the liberal secular modern West is vastly more authoritarian than virtually any government system in History.ridiculous and ignorant
- Alright, can you give me a list of historical government systems which are more authoritarian than yours?
seems like you've given up
- On you, yes. Lost cause.
clearly, you have not read much of this website over the past three years
- It must be that you're not confident enough to win against me in a debate then.
You claimed gay marriage was evidence of future pedophilia
- It is your illogical mind that jumps into those assumptions. But I did state the fact that homosexuality & pedophilia are both inline with Liberal principles.
You said white christians were easily turned, I pointed out that is a rapidly shrinking demo. Try to keep up.
- Entirely besides the point.
non-sequitur
- I don't think that means what you think it means...
because you fail to comprehend
- The level of your incoherence, indeed.
non-sequitur
- Ur mum...
Improve your reading comprehension: I said "continuous government in the world today" Abbasids and Ottomans are no longer in the world today but I don't expect that you have noticed.
- Take your own advice. Again, what exactly is your idea of long lasting government? The Abbasids lasted 750 years, the Ottomans 600 years... You haven't answered the question. – As to your 'All of the longest lasting continuous government in the world today are Liberal Republics', it's factually false.
You said Capitalism is unsustainable.
- I said, Western style Capitalism is unsustainable, which indeed it is. You have yet to address that.
I pointed out that Capitalism is human character so always present in every human society.
- You don't know what you're talking about.
Don't know how you failed to comprehend.
- Indeed, I fail to comprehend how ignorant you are.
non-sequitur straw man. You said the American Revolution was historically inconsequential.
- I said it produced meager results, which it did. Very convinient for you to delete the parts you can't refute in my text, then proceed to respond in pretense. I am still waiting, why don't you tell us us exactly how shouting "all men are created equal" then proceeding to exclude all but some men: Blacks, Irish, Catholics... &/or non-Nationals... is not meager results. The Bolshevik Revolution was significantly more consequential, & also produced just as meager results.
I pointed out your historical illiteracy.
- You have yet to. Good luck.
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@PREZ-HILTON
I am not sure where those things conflict, so I can't tell you.
- Lower cost, higher volume & greater complexity requires ever larger enterprises. Small businesses may supplement an industrial system, but will not be able to achieve sufficiency.
Obviously because if you are always 20 years behind liberals, you will just have the country turn into what liberalism wanted for it 20 years ago. In 20 years you'll have conservatives defend what liberals are pushing now.
- Where do you draw the line then?
Mostly just by sitting back and watching things and then reacting to any sort of disloyalty. Suddenly a corporation puts their own self interests above that of the country. Bang, step in and execute the CEO for treason. If it happens again, bang execute the board that elects CEOs.
- So a middle between government regulation & private enterprise. CCP style on steroids, cool.
As far as reeducation of the population is concerned, just intense philosophy classes beginning in elementary and going until they get out of highschool.
- No religion?
The end goal of liberalism is what you see in other liberal controlled countries. Countries such as North Korea, Venezuela and Cuba. If you look at the economic freedom index which measures how capitalistic a country is, than the countries doing the worst job, such as the ones I mention, are the end goals of liberalism.
- Liberalism is to prioritize individual good over common good. I don't think those countries epitomize this principle.
Transhumanism is at the end of the day about radical life extension. Liberalism kills babies before they are born, attempts to kill the elderly through euthenasia and is generally anti-life.
- Transhumanism is essentially an ideal where biological & social hindrances to individual aspiration are removed, where the individual can realize their "true" self sans constriction. Things like gender free genitals, swappable organs, pregnancy free birth, abolition of hierarchy... are all the ultimate extension of Liberal principles. All humans are equalized & identical, & free to chose who they want to be without restriction...
Your paradigm is wrong. I would execute people who cut off the dicks of 9 year olds . At what point in American history were people executed for routinely cutting off children's penises?
- England executed for some 80 different capital crimes back in the 19th century. Cutting off children's penises was probably one of them.
Assuming that humans act in accordance with a predetermined nature has nothing to do with viewing reality as objective or subjective. It probably falls more along the lines of whether I believe in predeterminism or not and predeterminism is a philosophical belief probably more in line with what an objectionist would think.You can say my nature is predetermined or not, it is irrelevant as to whether truth is subjective or not. Either genetic predeterminism is true or it isn't. If it is true, it doesn't mean subjectivism is true. In fact I think it makes subjectivism less true.You are saying things can't be reconciled which can be. It is logical to both believe in a higher power and to believe in that God wrote himself onto our heart. The reason all of humanity share moral values is because God gave us those moral instincts. God did not give everyone throughout history a Bible or a Koran.He did give everyone an instinct for what is moral. We know murder is wrong. We knew that before you ever read the Koran. You knew that because God gave you instincts for right and wrong. Every society on the planet even ones unexposed to an abrahamic religion knows that killing for fun is wrong, every single society knows that raping baby's is wrong.Having this internal moral instincts does not mean you get to determine what is right and wrong. It means God has already determined right and wrong and wrote it on your heart. There is a reason that Cain tried to cover up his crime before a single commandment was written. God has wrote the laws on his heart and he knew murdering his brother was wrong according to his own internal morality set by God. He chose to ignore the laws God wrote on his heart.Humans don't get to determine right and wrong. Allah already did it, and nobody gets a free pass even if they have no access to holy books, because like Cain who knew what was wrong prior to the 10 commandments, we also have the law written on our hearts.
- This is a vast & complex subject. I may end up making a post about it that others may engage. You are referencing a lot of philosophies: natural law, innate nature, human predisposition, existentialism, & ideas as old as platonism... etc. I'd love to talk more about this, but I don't wanna digress, so I'll try to be brief. – There are parts to this issue, each induces divergent positions:
- As to Human nature. Some believe it's innate to be preserved or improved. Some believe it's not, therefore either malleable in accordance to environment, thus society ought to maximize its potential (marxism for instance), or it's predetermined, thus must be freed from social obstruction due to social restriction (deconstructionism for instance). The latter two are often confused with each-other, but they differ in the second premise, albeit they share the first.
- As to intrinsic knowledge. Some believe there is innate knowledge, for instance platonism. Some believe there is proto-knowledge (i.e. predisposition to acquire knowledge). Some believe in blank slate, that all knowledge is acquired, for instance empiricism.
- As to Truth. Some believe Truth is objective & known. Some believe Truth is objective & unknown, for instance skepticism. Some believe Truth is subjective & known, for instance subjectivism. Some believe Truth is subjective & unknown, for instance in solipcism.
- As to Reason. Some believe it's entirely demonstrative, that beauty is as reality, & both may be objectively ascertained, for instance rationalism or scientism. Some believe it's entirely preferential, that reality is as beauty, that it's a matter of taste & preference, thus subjective, for instance existentialism. Some believe Reason is both: reality is what is, thus the object of demonstrative reason, & beauty is what ought to be, thus the object of preferential reason.
- As to Morality. Some believe it has an objective reality, therefore either known innately, for instance in natural law, or known through reason, for instance using science or rationality. Some believe it doesn't, therefore either can solely be known through revelation, or it's subjective, for instance relativism; or it's non-existence, for instance in nihilism.
- As to human agency. Some believe agency is tangible, that humans have a will to act efficiently on the world, i.e. immediate reality is contingent on human will. Some believe agency is mental, that human have free choice but predetermined actions, i.e. free reasoning. Some believe that agency is nominal, thus human choices & actions are all predetermined.
- As to Good....etc ...etc.
- It is not evident to see the connection between these ideas until you delve into the implications of each paradigm. Sterilizing a family line for being "bad", assumes that their actions weren't born out of choice but out of nature, such that their nature is predetermined, to remove their harm is to remove them. This assumption is a consequence of adopting ideals like existentialism, or more generally denying Truth as having an objective reality. In effect, if acquired Truth is contingent on environment (for instance state or social norms), then it has no objective reality, therefore by precluding the impact of environment, what remains must be the original state, the "true" self. Hence, the -predestined- "true" nature. – This mode of thinking is prevalent in Liberal consciousness. Reason why, many of the Left today if not all, believe Whites are inherently racist, or that a transwoman is "truly" a woman...etc.
- As to what you mentioned about knowing good & bad, we can have a separate discussion about it. Although in the Christian Tradition opinions on this are diverse, there is generally a tendency therein to adopt that position. Particularly, some combination of innate disposition to know God, thus good & evil, & also an innate disposition to deny God, thus good & bad, as per original sin.
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@Yassine
My feeling is that you are not arguing in good faith. You state that America is on the brink of civil war but when your understanding of American culture is questioned, you criticize me for assuming you are paying attention to American culture. You justify Republican radicalization with fear of future pedophilia and when challenged, state that pedophilia is just a kink I haven't been indoctrinated to accept.
Let's conclude this by returning to your OP.
- You claim that the states are becoming different countries and offer this website as your only example.
- Obviously, there is nothing about this website that is particularly representative of America or Americans.
- You state that the only alternative is pluralism, with different states having different constitution, apparently entirely ignorant that the US is currently a highly pluralistic society and that each state was founded with its own constitution and set of laws.
- The United States is a federal system, which means that powers are divided between the national government and state governments, and that each state has its own constitution and legal system within the broader framework of the U.S. Constitution. This system allows for a diverse range of viewpoints and approaches to be represented, while still maintaining the unity and cohesion of the country as a whole. Most Americans agree that it is important to work towards finding solutions that respect the diversity of perspectives and experiences within the country, and that promote understanding and cooperation rather than division and conflict.
- It is important to recognize that civil war is a destructive and harmful event that should be avoided at all costs. It is never a desirable outcome, and there are always better options for resolving conflicts and addressing differences of opinion.