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@fauxlaw
Nope. Not how you mean determinism. God's thoughts are his own; ours are ours, alone.
ARE GOD'S THOUGHTS CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED ?
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@Bones
Fallacy of presumption. By saying God's thought you are assuming God exists.Special Pleading fallacy. Assuming that God has special characteristic, namely, avoids the argument 3RU7AL proposes.
Let's be as generous as possible here.
(IFF) a self-caused god exists (THEN) that god's thoughts and actions are (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
(IFF) SCG ACTS ACCORDING TO ITS IMMUTABLE NATURE (THEN) SCG MUST ACT ACCORDING TO ITS IMMUTABLE NATURE (LIKE A STAR, OR A PLANET)
(IFF) SCG ACTS ACCORDING TO UNCAUSED IMPULSES (THEN) SCG ACTIONS ARE FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM RANDOM
PERFECT GOD = PERFECT WORLD
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@fauxlaw
Self-caused
Oh good, CAUSED and therefore DETERMINED.
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@MarkWebberFan
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS CAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "FREE"
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS UNCAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "WILL"
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@fauxlaw
STROKE OF INSIGHT
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@fauxlaw
What caused "you" ?That has two answers. Physically, may parents. Spiritually, God, the Father.
ARE YOUR GOD'S THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED ?
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@badger
It kinda does. Human consciousness easily resembles the singularities of physics and mathematics. The whole world is inside your head.
CONSCIOUSNESS IS (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS CAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "FREE"
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS UNCAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "WILL"
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@triangle.128k
Consciousness refutes determinism
CONSCIOUSNESS IS (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS CAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "FREE"
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS UNCAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "WILL"
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@MarkWebberFan
ALL EVENTS AND THOUGHTS AND MEMORIES AND ACTIONS AND INTENTIONS AND TENDENCIES ARE (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
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@fauxlaw
Without memories, the mind is incapable of thought.Who told you that? Your sock puppet? Not a relevant, nor credible source. Never had amnesia? Amazing what can be thought, in spite of it.
Have you ever had a stroke ?
Have you ever forgotten language itself ?
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@fauxlaw
My can-do attitude was caused. By me. My father taught me
What caused "you" ?
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@fauxlaw
"impulse-control"can be learned by personal commitment
How does one learn "personal commitment" ?
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@MarkWebberFan
These reflections do not need memories as a prerequisite.
Does an infant dream of eating lobster ?
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@MarkWebberFan
I believe the limitations do not constrict the possible existence of a free will. I believe you're still free to reflect on the features of the cave in spite of the fact that you'll be ignorant(for the rest of your life) of the facts outside of the cave.
ALL EVENTS AND THOUGHTS AND MEMORIES AND ACTIONS AND INTENTIONS AND TENDENCIES ARE (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
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@MarkWebberFan
Why do memories matter? If they're still capable of reflection,
Without memories, the mind is incapable of thought.
Without memories, the will does not exist.
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@fauxlaw
Get it. It's called self-improvement. It's called refusing to think like a victim. I know today's psycho babble is all about victimization, but, what if I decide I'm not a victim to everything around me? I have. "Oh, poor mer" is not in my vocabulary.
You're still dodging the point.
Do you think your "can do attitude" was CAUSED or do you think your "can do attitude" was UNCAUSED.
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@Barney
Limited free will, does not equal free will absolutely does not exist. If you said chocolate does not exist, but I showed a single chocolate chip, that would negate. However, if you instead argued there was a chocolate shortage, that single piece of evidence would be a poor counter.
PLEASE PROVIDE A "SINGLE EXAMPLE" OF A THOUGHT OR ACTION OR OTHER EVENT THAT IS (NEITHER) CAUSED (NOR) UNCAUSED
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@fauxlaw
Have a care for what goes in the pie hole,
What if you lack "impulse-control" ?
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@Sum1hugme
Well we have every inductive reason to believe that my statement about the demon is true.
Based on what exactly ?
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@fauxlaw
Yes, still another who says aberrant behavior is at the root of all bad actors. Sure, but what is the cause of aberrant behavior? A tumor in the brain, says Eagleman, as if he can stop at that. But, the tumor is not root cause. Tumors can develop for a variety of reasons, some of which we cannot control.
A tumor was JUST ONE OF MANY EXAMPLE CAUSES.
And if you watched the end of the speech, you'd know that "impulse-control" (which is highly-correlated with criminal behavior) can be re-learned through laboratory conditioning.
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@Sum1hugme
I haven't seen it. Why do you ask?
DEVS is about using present information to reconstruct past events.
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@Theweakeredge
Right, but there can be an event caused by multiple things, no?The existence of x does not preclude the existence of y.
EVERY EVENT HAS MULTIPLE CAUSES AND MULTIPLE UNCAUSES
THERE IS NO CLEVER MIX OF "CAUSED" AND "UNCAUSED" THAT CHANGES THIS FACT
(IFF) CAUSED (THEN) NOT "FREE"
(IFF) UNCAUSED (THEN) NOT "WILL"
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@fauxlaw
The Brain and the Law by David Eagleman
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@Barney
"Driven by" does not necessarily equal perfect predetermination.
PREDETERMINATION is NOT the "conclusion".
INDETERMINISM is the "conclusion".
It's TAUTOLOGICAL.
EVERY EVENT IS (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
(IFF) CAUSED (THEN) NOT "FREE"
(IFF) UNCAUSED (THEN) NOT "WILL"
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@fauxlaw
Therefore, my decision to smoke, if I made such a decision, is entirely based on my free will to do so.
Do you think perhaps you would perform a COST to BENEFIT ANALYSIS ?
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@Tarik
Because knowing why has no bearing on the command itself.
Excellent argument for QUALITATIVE (emotional) free-will.
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@Sum1hugme
If there was a demon with perfect knowledge of all matter and energy in the present, that demon should [hypothetically] necessarily be able to perfectly predict the future and perfectly reconstruct the past
Not if indeterminism is true.
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@Lemming
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@MarkWebberFan
prisoners in solitary confinement.
Do these hypothetical prisoners have any conscious and or subconscious memories of their lives before their confinement ?
Is it possible that these pre-existing memories are the features of the cave on which the echo is shaped ?
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@Bones
That's like me saying that I commanded an earthquake to happen on Mars without knowing why I did it or how I did it.
Well stated.
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@MarkWebberFan
My reflections are the results of my inner-self.
The "reflections" are either "caused" or "uncaused".
For example, an echo from a cave is not "free".
The echo is a function of the shape of the cave.
And the cave did not create itself.
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@Bones
You cannot know how things occur to you and neither can you know why you"chose" the option of which you did.
Although, you CAN know that each of your actions is necessarily (EITHER) caused (OR) uncaused.
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@Tarik
You tell me.
If your "willingness" is caused, then it is not "free".
If your "willingness" is uncaused, then it is not your "will".
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@Tarik
The first thing to note is that you only "chose" it because it occurred to you.And because I was WILLING to choose it.
Is your "willingness" caused by something ?
Is your "willingness" uncaused ?
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@Theweakeredge
I would disagree - not with what you have there neccessarily as premises, but the conclusion. You are assuming that because of a cause of x has a quality (or lack thereof) that the result also lacks that quality - which is neccessarily a fallacy of composition
human action can ONLY BE either "caused" or "uncaused".
(IFF) your action is "caused" (THEN) your action is not "free"
(IFF) your action is "uncaused" (THEN) it is not an act of your "will"
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@Tarik
both end with the exact same resultWhich is?
FREE-WILL IS LOGICALLY INCOHERENT
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@Wylted
You haven't even heard my theory,
Please feel free to present your actual hypothesis.
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@Wylted
All women go to the same handful of stores as girls and are subject to toys for example marketed to girls like kitchens, barbies and play vacuums. So yes there is overlap on the conditioning process.
It also appears you may have shifted the goal-posts somewhat.
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@Wylted
Not sure where you think the word "general" means all. It merely means more often than not. A 51% adoption of a trait would make it a general trait
51% seems a bit overly optimistic.
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@Wylted
How can you "resist" influences-and-biology without an impulse to "resist" influences-and-biology?By having the urge to do so, and deciding to do so. Not sure how that is relevant to the topic at hand though, which is that generally women pick partners based on different qualities than men and generally adopt different dating strategies. Are you going to either disprove my premise or offer an alternate one. Or is this just an exercise 9f how much you can annoy me, by incorrectly utilizing the socratic method?
By having the urge.
Isn't "the urge" itself (EITHER) a manifestation of human-instinct (biology) (OR) something learned from experience ("social influences") ?
This is specifically "relevant to the topic at hand" because you seem to be suggesting that a "man" is doomed to a certain mindset and strategy and a "woman" is also doomed to a certain mindset and strategy, making both sides into veritable mono-dimensional cartoon characters.
Your vague "premise" has not been "proved" by you, and so there is absolutely no burden for me to "disprove" anything.
My only contention is that your observational hypothesis is not specifically "wrong" as much as it is somewhat sample-biased.
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@Wylted
What exactly do you think your "will" is "free" from?Absolute control of outside entities.
Would you say your "will" is "free" from (overt) human coercion ?
Would you say that "freedom" from environment + biology is impossible ?
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@PGA2.0
Okay, thanks. Supplies are in short supply here in Canada and like the States (thanks to Biden and his policies) the price has skyrocketed for lumber and other commodities. I was thinking we would be finished by now. It looks like another couple of weeks before I consider something like this.
Why There are Now So Many Shortages (It's Not COVID)
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@Wylted
Well, (IFF) your "will" (or as one might say, "strategy") is influenced by your environment and biology (THEN) your "will" is not "free"LOL. Freewill implies that you can resist influences and biology. Are you trolling me? You aren't actually struggling to grasp what 7 year olds easily grasp are you?
What exactly do you think your "will" is "free" from?
How can you "resist" influences-and-biology without an impulse to "resist" influences-and-biology?
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@DebateArt.com
I am not sure it would be that simple, not only forum posts and debate arguments contain markup, which is not easy to reliably separate from normal words, but also it's not always clear what should be considered a word. I may look into it at some point but probably not soon.
Even a RAW character count would be "close enough" to compare one account to another.
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@RationalMadman
Housewives and their dependency on the breadwinning male isn't just a social construct, it also is/was natural for SOME females to fall into role-wise,
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@Wylted
Brutal is suggesting the following"You can't have freewill and also be influenced by your environment and biology. Derp"
Well, (IFF) your "will" (or as one might say, "strategy") is influenced by your environment and biology (THEN) your "will" is not "free"
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@Wylted
My strategies for accomplishing what you list would different depending on the wiring of my brain, and my social conditioning.
Hold up.
Are you suggesting that you have no free-will?
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@Wylted
I also agree with you that disfigured people have a harder time getting laid
Perhaps people should try to focus on building meaningful long-term human relationships.
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@Wylted
There are more "outliers" than "conformists" in my experience.That is stupid and the definitions of those words prove it.
I believe there is a significant difference between the term "conformist" and the term "majority".
I hope you don't believe the planet is saturated with stepford-wives.
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