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3RU7AL

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HUMANS ARE NOT TRASH
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@Wylted
No shit, genius. Sad that you somehow think the fact Tom Boys exist proves women use the same strategies as men. 
I never suggested "women use the same strategies as men".

I merely suggested "women use many different strategies".
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@Greyparrot
Do you think wives should ask a husband how much they make to support them?
Sure, why not?
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@Greyparrot
Have you ever met a woman who tells you, while you're dating, they want to watch sci-fi action horror movies and go shopping and eat delicious food?
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Morality - Is Atheism More Reasonable than Theism?
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@TheUnderdog
An impressive demonstration of tenacity on both sides.
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@Greyparrot
they want to stay home and raise children and cook and clean and never get a job?
How is raising children not a job? It's the entire reason why women biologically screen mates on their net-worth.
Oh, ok.  Do you think people should make their wives file an I-9?
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@Wylted
Yes. 

Do you think societal conditioning is a myth if there are outliers?

What is the motive behind your question?
There are more "outliers" than "conformists" in my experience.

Have you ever met a woman who tells you, while you're dating, they want to stay home and raise children and cook and clean and never get a job?
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@Wylted
All women go to the same handful of stores as girls and are subject to toys for example marketed to girls like kitchens, barbies and play vacuums?
Women start as girls. Correct. 
Do you know any women who played with trucks and guns when they were girls?
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@Greyparrot
please be slightly more specific
Every time a parent gives a child resources that the child did not earn, it is a form of nepotism. 
Nepotism is a form of favoritism which is granted to relatives in various fields, including business, politics, entertainment, sports, religion and other activities. The term originated with the assignment of nephews to important positions by Catholic popes and bishops.
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@Wylted
All women go to the same handful of stores as girls and are subject to toys for example marketed to girls like kitchens, barbies and play vacuums?
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@Wylted
If I woke up with my male experiences and male brain in a women's body, I would likely act like a man. If I grew up a female and had the same experiences and conditioning women have had, I'd likely act significantly different than I do now. 

My strategies for accomplishing what you list would different depending on the wiring of my brain, and my social conditioning.  
Not all men are "conditioned" the same.

Not all women are "conditioned" the same.

I'm sure you'd be forced to adjust your strategy if your body changed significantly in any way.

Imagine your face is horrifically disfigured in some sort of accident.

Do you think that type of event might spark a re-think?
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@Wylted
That advice is actually true for women. Really, men have very wide variety of what they find attractive. Some of us like fat chicks, some of us skinny chicks, some of us like girls who most would find ugly. Every look a woman could have, will find a ton of men attracted to that particular look. 

Women are attracted to a small minority of men. I think it was a dating site that did an informal survey on what men vs women found attractive. Men in general found 80% of women on the app to be attractive, while women all seemed to just find 20% of the men to be attractive.

The advantages I mention are in the legal system. I am merely talking about how different strategies are collectively used by each group. 

Men just aren't as good at the social games as women. We aren't as intuitive with how the people around us feel and how to navigate social situations as they are, so generally speaking . Men will be honest about why they are not attracted to a woman, and women care about the relationship with their male friend and will not want hard feelings, so will say what best preserves that friendship.

I am not saying either thing is right or wrong, but I do know that, the dating advice your female friends give you, will literally turn you into an incel.
Try this.

Imagine, try to imagine.

Imagine YOU woke-up as a woman this morning.

In sort of a Kafka's Metamorphosis type scenario.

What's your strategy going to be to fulfill your "long-term-desire for close human connection"?

How are you going to find someone who will want to know "the real you"?

How are you going to find someone who will not simply fetishize you?

How are you going to find someone who will not simply ignore you until they want the dopamine hit and ego boost they get from their own self-absorbed fantasy?

Now imagine you're 48 years old with a bad back and swollen feet.
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@Wylted
They are unaware of the long term and short term mating strategies of the opposite sex. Women seem intuitively aware of how their mating strategy differs from men's, but men believe in some myths for the most part. 

For example when girls are unattracted to the nice guy they befriended, they will often give him the advice or words of wisdom along the lines of "just be yourself eventually you'll find a girl that will love you"
The reverse is also true.

For example when men are unattracted to the nice woman they befriended, they will often give him the advice or words of wisdom along the lines of "just be yourself eventually you'll find a man that will love you"

It's easy for a man to think that women have "the advantage" in relationships.

It's easy for a woman to think that men have "the advantage" in relationships.

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@Greyparrot
That's an absofuckinlutely nutso idea.
please be slightly more specific
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@Athias
are you suggesting that just as many oligarchs would exist in a world without NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE ?
I wouldn't characterize them as "oligarchs," but yes, there'd still be a concentration of wealth in the absence of nepotism and inheritance.
Please provide your personally preferred definition of "oligarch".
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@Athias
parental focus may give someone an emotional advantage or disadvantage

training and or popular style may give a person a social advantage or disadvantage

personal and or parental and or social priority may give someone an intellectual advantage or disadvantage
On what measure do you base a distinction between a "fair" advantage and an "unfair" advantage? How do the advantages you've list meet that criterion/criteria?
I've been pretty clear on this from the word go.

NO NEPOTISM.

NO INHERITANCE.
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@Athias
public sphere requires regulation

private sphere is private
And management and executive positions are (necessarily) within the public sphere?
If your company serves the public, then they are within the public sphere.
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@Athias
, and or what primary goal should those rules be aimed at ?
Maintaining the interests of the involved.
Do those interests include all citizens?
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@Athias
if you do believe there should be some rules to govern commerce, what moral theory
Individualist moral theory.
How do you propose we protect the individual from the collective?
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@Athias
let's see if we can square this circle

do you believe there should be some rules to govern commerce ?
Yes, privatized rules. That is, the involved parties can determine their participation by the rules they've conceived, and to which they've agreed.
What happens when the "privatized rules" inevitably become insular, raising anti-competitive barriers to entry?

Or do you consider this "not a problem"?
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@Athias
please explain how you managed to leap to this ridiculous conclusion
Because modeling jobs require no particularly stringent merits, correct? How different is it that one is born beautiful from one's being born into money?
"Merit" in a modeling job is "looks".

I've never once suggested that every job should be available for every human.

never.

once.
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@Athias
HERE'S YOUR PRECIOUS EFFICIENT "FREE-MARKET" IN ACTION,
Explain your contention against that which was described in the video you referenced.
I'm not sure how anyone can claim we're "participating" in a "capitalist" economy when a commodity can be so obviously price fixed by the oligarchs.
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Why are we banning wylted?
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@Wylted
I think my next step is realizing I can't cure cancer or save the world, so I can stay in one place long enough to actually stabilize my life. I feel like it is ripping at my soul though, to think I will never have a significant positive impact on the world, no matter how hard I try. 
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@Greyparrot
government regulation currently crushes small business and insulates big businesses
Big businesses are jealous of successful competitors.
in your own imagination, who are the current "ambitious and deserving geniuses" ?

where are they all hiding ?
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@Greyparrot
what do you believe is the primary function of government ?
To protect the public from jealous people (criminals) or jealous nations (invaders) and allow people the freedom to pursue happiness, not engage in equity schemes that reward jealous people while punishing ambitious people...
government regulation currently crushes small business and insulates big businesses

single-digit-millionaires are specifically targeted by bigger fish because they don't have enough wealth to properly defend themselves in the current legal climate
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@Greyparrot
are you suggesting that just as many oligarchs would exist in a world without NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE ?

Only 8.5% of global high-net-worth individuals were categorized as having completely inherited their wealth

Why on earth are your panties so irredeemably twisted over 8.5% of the super elite oligarchy?
well then, you would presumably have ZERO OBJECTIONS to ending NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE.

since it would only affect (according to your own extensive research) a teensy-tiny minority of 32% of the world's wealthiest and most influential individuals.

'World's richest 1% get 82% of the wealth' [**]

The World's Top 26 Billionaires Now Own as Much as the Poorest 3.8 Billion [**]
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@Greyparrot
So in your dystopia, a person with bad lifestyle choices is just fucked, right?
are you suggesting that your hypothetical system is somehow equipped to "fix" this particular "problem" ?
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@Greyparrot
So in your dystopia, a person with bad schools is just fucked, right?
are you suggesting that your hypothetical system is somehow equipped to "fix" this particular "problem" ?
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@Greyparrot
So in your dystopia, a person with bad parents is just fucked, right?
are you suggesting that your hypothetical system is somehow equipped to "fix" this particular "problem" ?
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@Athias
Is a person's prospective homelessness and starvation a fault of the system?
what do you believe is the primary function of government ?
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@Athias
OLIGARCHY IS THE ANTITHESIS OF ANARCHY

OLIGARCHY IS THE INEVITABLE CONSEQUENCE OF NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE
Assuming of course that we're focused on the concentration of wealth. And there will always be concentration where the most commerce is generated, nepotism + inheritance notwithstanding. (Yes even trust-fund babies learn how to maintain their wealth given that wealth too is finite.)
are you suggesting that just as many oligarchs would exist in a world without NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE ?

and for the record, any "self-made" oligarchs that might arise from a provably-fair game, that could not gift their assets to their friends and or relatives would be 100% "acceptable".
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@Athias
EQUALITY = PROVABLY FAIR

EQUALITY = NO "HEAD-STARTS"

NO GIFTS

NO INHERITANCE

NO NEPOTISM

NO CHEATING
Out of curiosity, what are some advantages for which you'd be on board?
parental focus may give someone an emotional advantage or disadvantage

training and or popular style may give a person a social advantage or disadvantage

personal and or parental and or social priority may give someone an intellectual advantage or disadvantage
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@Athias
your home is your castle

do what you wish in your own home

do what you think is best with your own family in your own home

nepotism only applies to businesses, and more specifically to management positions and executives
How is the logic any different?
public sphere requires regulation

private sphere is private

it's a matter of scope
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@Athias
once again, i'm very impressed by your eloquence

(1) i don't believe "money" (and or "capitalism") is teh "evil"

let's see if we can square this circle

do you believe there should be some rules to govern commerce ?

if you do believe there should be some rules to govern commerce, what moral theory, and or what primary goal should those rules be aimed at ?
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@Athias
Anarchy is poitical/social individualism, which would delineate that in spite/favor of nepotism, inheritance, and social/economic advantages, as an individual, your life is a function of service to your own best interests; that your talents, skills, abilities, labor, time, etc. are yours to do with in whichever manner you see fit, so long as it does not infract on another individual's capacity to exhibit the aforementioned. Nepotism and inheritance are not infractions.
OLIGARCHY IS THE ANTITHESIS OF ANARCHY

OLIGARCHY IS THE INEVITABLE CONSEQUENCE OF NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE
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@Athias
ANARCHY =/= EQUALITY; ANARCHY =/= NO NEPOTISM; ANARCHY =/= NO ADVANTAGES
i never once suggested "no advantages", whatever gave you that idea ?



EQUALITY = PROVABLY FAIR

EQUALITY = NO "HEAD-STARTS"

NO GIFTS

NO INHERITANCE

NO NEPOTISM

NO CHEATING
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@Athias
What about a pretty woman? Do we tag her up a bit, so that the uggos have a "fair shot" at a modeling job?
please explain how you managed to leap to this ridiculous conclusion
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@Athias
Say I'm in the market for a babysitter. I meet a candidate who has a Ph.D in both child psychology and child education. She has years of experience and she had numerous reviews which raved about her. She is sure to be a lock. Just before I finalize my decision, my 16 year-old daughter expresses interest in being a babysitter. Ultimately, I decide to hire my daughter because she's my daughter. So if we were to maintain ANARCHY = EQUALITY = NO NEPOTISM, then that would undermine individual interests particularly the ones which concern said individual.
your home is your castle

do what you wish in your own home

do what you think is best with your own family in your own home

nepotism only applies to businesses, and more specifically to management positions and executives

i'm pretty certain nobody's going to care if you hire your brother-in-law to mop the floors, unless he's getting paid more than your other floor moppers or gets away with being late or missing work more than your other floor moppers

you seem to be recoiling at the prospect of MERITOCRACY
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@Athias
think of it like a game of "monopoly"

would you participate in a game where your competitors already owned hotels on half the board and had vastly outsized cash reserves before you even rolled your first move?

forget the metaphor for a minute

would you play this board game ?
As for whether I'd play the game, in a competitive context, no I would not.
now imagine someone told you that if you don't play the game, you will be deprived of food and shelter
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@Greyparrot
HERE'S YOUR PRECIOUS EFFICIENT "FREE-MARKET" IN ACTION,
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The determinism syllogism
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@badger
but he was critiquing something anyway
critique is the crucible by which logic is forged
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The determinism syllogism
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@badger
and that's about as real and true to me as any dainty syllogism.
any argument against logic is necessarily self-defeating
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The determinism syllogism
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@Tarik
Premise 1 Every human choice or action is driven by past events. 
So is it past events or randomness?
both end with the exact same result
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The determinism syllogism
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@Bones
Premise 1  Every human choice or action is driven by past events. 

Premise 2 We do not control past events. 

Conclusion 1 Human free will does not exist. 

From my perspective, the syllogism seems simple to the point where it is irrefutable. What do we think?
Premise 1 EVERY HUMAN CHOICE OR ACTION IS EITHER CAUSED BY PREVIOUS EVENTS OR TOTALLY RANDOM OR SOME MIX OF THE TWO

Premise 2 CAUSED EVENTS ARE NOT "CHOSEN" AND RANDOM EVENTS ARE NOT "CHOSEN", MIXING THESE CHANGES NOTHING

Conclusion 1 HUMAN ACTIONS ARE EITHER CAUSED OR RANDOM OR SOME MIX OF THE TWO, THEREFORE HUMAN ACTIONS ARE NOT "CHOSEN"

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The determinism syllogism
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@Theweakeredge
For example, though you do not choose whether you prefer one thing to another - you can choose to go against that preference
what might cause you to prefer to not prefer something you previously preferred ?
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@Greyparrot
and wasn't your point that working in a sweatshop was somehow preferable to farming ?
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@Greyparrot
i guess all farmers are exactly like you
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@Greyparrot
I know I'm coming off kind of abrasive in this thread, but it's so tropey the number of anti-capitalists that never set foot on a farm and never set foot in a communist country nor ever talked to a person who fled a communist country. And then they loudly complain that capitalism hasn't provided more than their already objectively provable cushy lifestyle.

I actually had a Venezuelan roommate for 3 years. Now that was a learning experience.
phenomenal rush-to-disqualify.

why bother formulating an argument

when you can simply ad-hominem-attack everyone who seems to disagree
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@badger
Bad ideas, failed businesses, sunk cost. Any sort of central planning can't deal with any of this like capitalism can, capitalism ruthlessly reinvents itself, that's its power. 
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@badger
do you think that perhaps there are unqualified legacy idiot executives and politicians ?
Not really sure what you do about that, though. It's not really an indictment of capitalism, either. It's surplus, in a way. 
please explain what you mean by "dead weight" ?
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@Greyparrot
I have worked with some subsistence farmers in Kenya and Tanzania, most of them raising crops rather than livestock.

Basically, there's typically a good chunk of the year (it can be anywhere 2-3 months to 8-10 months depending on the local climate and the amount of water available that year) where there might be only a couple hours of farm work per week, so they try to pick up another job or work odd jobs as a day laborer (or they may just hang around the community drinking locally made alcohol and playing checkers).

During the intensive times (at the start of the season for preparing the soil and planting seeds, and then at the end of the season for the harvest), 12 hour work days are fairly typical for men (most of my experience is around the equator, so they generally work from sunrise to sunset). Women typically can't work on the farm for a full 12 hour day even during the busiest part of the season as they normally have at least a few hours of domestic work (most cleaning can be done at night, but some of the cooking will be done during the day time). Still, many women farmers will try to get as much time in the fields as they can so that they don't lose any of their harvest.

In between, when farmers are weeding, applying fertilizer, bringing water and other tasks, they will probably work for 4-6 hours. It depends on the size of their plot (though if they have a massive farm, they're generally not subsistence farmers) and some will work shorter or longer, depending on the needs of the crop in question. [**]
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