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3RU7AL

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Total posts: 14,582

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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
SOME AXIOMS ARE NOT LOGICALLY NECESSARY.
Once you add “IF” to the equation even the impossible is possible making anything logically necessary under that “IF” circumstance.
HYPOTHETICAL LOGICAL-NECESSITY and ACTUAL LOGICAL-NECESSITY are NOT the same.

A HYPOTHETICAL LOGICAL-NECESSITY IS VALID BUT NOT SOUND.

AN ACTUAL LOGICAL-NECESSITY IS BOTH VALID AND SOUND.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Theweakeredge
I mean... the entire "expired label" on food can be kind of arbitrary, sure in some instances its actually useful, but its mostly used for profit.
Yep.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
Theirs no certainty in regards to what ifs so proof isn’t necessary.
Every AXIOM is an implicit conditional statement.

Every PREMISE is an implicit conditional statement.

Every VALID logical statement is comprised of PREMISES.

Every VALID logical statement is comprised of AXIOMS.

SOME AXIOMS ARE LOGICALLY NECESSARY.

SOME AXIOMS ARE NOT LOGICALLY NECESSARY.

SOME PREMISES ARE LOGICALLY NECESSARY.

SOME PREMISES ARE NOT LOGICALLY NECESSARY.
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Universal Basic Income
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@secularmerlin
Great! According to this article the United states wastes 80 billion pounds of food per year! Between that and the millions of acres of wilderness that you have pointed put we have land on which to house the entire homeless population and also enough excess food! And you were worried it would cost you something to feed and house everyone!
Nice.

Now we just have to change the laws against "camping" and make disposing edible food illegal.

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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
(IFF) all dogs are blue

This premise is provably false (not sound).

A logically sound statement requires every premise be provably true.
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Universal Basic Income
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@fauxlaw
I see.

And how much does the average professional poet earn?
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Universal Basic Income
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@FLRW
One group of economists estimates that 42% of the jobs lost are gone forever.
I have friends who are web designers and computer programmers and GPT3 is shockingly close to putting them out of business.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What jobs do you think humans will be performing when self-driving-cars are commonplace?
Car mechanic.
So, typically, today we have about 3.5 million professional drivers in the USA.

So, typically, today we have about 800,000 professional mechanics in the USA.

I guess we're going to have a very exciting game of "musical chairs" (leaving 77.143% of drivers without jobs if and only if all the professional mechanics suddenly quit their jobs).
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Universal Basic Income
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@fauxlaw
Troubleshooting the failures. One of a million jobs.
Mechanics can't even diagnose these new vehicles without MODEL SPECIFIC PROPRIETARY TOOLS AND SOFTWARE.
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Universal Basic Income
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@fauxlaw
dio I could hold in my hand about the size of a stack of smartphones. I had a slide rule to calculate mathematics. The hand-held calculator was introduced in my middle school years, and it was limited to simple math [add/subtract, mutllipy, divide] and was barely pocket-size. It was forbidden to use in class. I was born two years following the creation of t
You clearly have no idea what we're dealing with.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What jobs do you think humans will be performing when self-driving-cars are commonplace?
Car mechanic.
Significantly fewer people will be driving to work.

Significantly fewer people will be owning vehicles.

Significantly fewer automobile accidents will happen.

And the electric vehicles do not require oil changes or spark-plugs.

Modular designs will allow sections to be swapped out and sent back to the factory for repair.

And like you pointed out, if there is a glut of mechanics, wages will go into the sewer.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What jobs do you think humans will be performing when self-driving-cars are commonplace?
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Universal Basic Income
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@fauxlaw
You apparently have no clue of the potential of GPT3.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Because such jobs are only profitable when a small enough portion of the population has them. If everyone has such a job then it is not possible for everyone to be profitable at it.
Great point.

ALSO,

GPT3 and DALL-E have demonstrated a machine's ability to imitate creative work.

An executive at a studio could ask the machine, "write me a blockbuster script for the next big franchise movie" and GPT3 would write the script and DALL-E would create the entire film from that script.

The executive could then view that film, and give DALL-E specific feedback, just like they give to human movie directors.

INDIVIDUALS AND OPEN AI COULD POTENTIALLY CREATE THEIR OWN HIGH-QUALITY MAJOR MOTION PICTURES, PUTTING THE EXECUTIVES OUT OF A JOB.

The record executives could do the same thing to create their next hit single.

GPT3 has already been used to create news articles and even entire niche content websites that outcompete other "human creativity" driven projects.

All accounting, financial projection, auditing, even computer programming and software design is going to be obsolete.
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We should ban certain topics
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@Bringerofrain
The masculine (YANG) is active and the feminine (YIN) receptive. [**]
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The endless chain of causes
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@Benjamin
God exists independently, which means that his existence is not based on a previous iteration of himself. He is constant.
Upon what criteria do you suppose "GOD" identifies as a "male"?
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
No and that’s neither valid or sound.
Do you believe a logical statement can be valid without being true?
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Universal Basic Income
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@secularmerlin
Are you trying to suggest that the entire homeless population, given the skill and determination, could live off the land ... in all the PRISTINE WILDERNESS left in America? I may have some bad news for you concerning the numbers of homeless people, the amount of wilderness we have left and the number of people it will support.

As for housing, well I'm actually only talking about shelter.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
I read that the first time you posted it, you reposting it doesn’t make it valid/sound.
Are all dogs blue?
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The endless chain of causes
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@Theweakeredge
Well no, because the big bang, the most widely accepted and evidenced model of the beginning of the known universe, time did have a beginning. This is a fairly basic fact.
Well stated.
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The endless chain of causes
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@Benjamin
P1: Every point in time is dependent on the last point in time and the laws of physics
P2: Nothing can be dependent on itself. 
C: The first point in time must be dependent on something external
GODEL'S INCOMPLETENESS THEOREM.
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The endless chain of causes
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@Benjamin
The only option for the universe to be independent (aka God-like) is for it to be eternal in time. But in fact, it is expanding, and there is a finite amount of energy inside the universe. This means that IF the universe is eternal in time, every instance of energy would be infinitely far apart. Since that is not the case, we know that the universe is not eternal. The only option for it to be eternal is a cyclic universe -- which contradicts modern science and also means that the universe would be dependent on previous iterations of itself.
ETHICA ORDINE GEOMETRICO DEMONSTRATA.

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The endless chain of causes
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@Benjamin
P1: Every event has a cause
P2: An endless chain of causes is impossible
C: There exists a first cause
P1: Every observable event is the result of a prior event
P2: This chain of events can be traced back to the initial-singularity (bigbang)
C: It is important to maintain a constant awareness of and vigilant respect of our epistemological limits (including our human perception of the flow of time).

ALSO,

NOUMENON.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
Valid (only "true" conditionally or hypothetically) but NOT Sound (empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary).
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Universal Basic Income
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@fauxlaw
UBI is a pitiful urban myth
Imagine a future where there are no delivery driver jobs, no taxi driver jobs, no warehouse jobs, no retail jobs, no fast-food jobs.

Currently, the #1 occupation of adult males is "driver" and those driverless vehicles will make them obsolete.

And don't try to pretend all humans will become novelists and screenwriters and artists.

GPT3 is making human labor AND human creativity obsolete.
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Universal Basic Income
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@fauxlaw
We have plenty of ancestral heritage of living off and in the land.
It is illegal to live in a "public" park.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Okay so they give me enough per month for 2% of the unit and after 50 months they own enough shares to call the unit theirs. At that point they stop paying any money and once 25 people have done this I no longer have any stake and walk away from the deal with just the $1 mil (800 x 25 x 50) from selling the shares.

Am I understanding right? I want to be sure I understand you correct before I respond.
The value of the property and therefore the proportional value of the shares will fluctuate with natural market forces.

So if after one year, your complex is appraised at $2 million, then each $800 per month payment would buy 0.04% of the total complex (or 1% of a $40,000 unit, if the units are of equal value).

You would maintain your profit potential.

And it would also be reasonable that each owner would pay some property maintenance fee based on how many shares they owned.

In the same way that a landlord who owns 100% of a property is responsible for 100% of the maintenance, a 1% owner would pay 1% of the maintenance.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Keep in mind, I'm actually proposing this for something more like an apartment complex.
That's fair, let's use an apartment complex as an example then. I buy a 25 unit complex for $1,000,000 (no idea how accurate this is to the apartment complex market, just using numbers to demonstrate the point) and divide it into 10,000 shares. 400 shares represents ownership of one housing unit in the complex. Someone comes along and wants to live in one of the units. How much do I charge them and how many shares do I give them each month?
Whatever the going rate is, any amount, like $800 per month which would buy 0.08% of the total complex (or 2% of a $40,000 unit, if the units are of equal value).
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Let's say your house is worth $100,000.00 or so.

For $350 you would give them a certificate worth 0.35% of the house (just for example).

This would be like selling shares of stock in your house.

After they move out, they could keep those shares and or potentially sell them to a prospective buyer.

Keep in mind, I'm actually proposing this for something more like an apartment complex.

Your own home should probably be treated more like a private club.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If your plan basically boils down to providing more resources to homeless shelter projects I am all for it.
Good plan.
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We should ban certain topics
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@Bringerofrain
Do you think if we banned the media covering any police shootings that it would prevent the riots that followed?
The "media" doesn't bother to mention MOST police shootings.

The "media" only seems to notice when there is the minimum requisite "community outrage".
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We should ban certain topics
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@Bringerofrain
I never said Cain was evil, you just asked me the first extremist so I named him
The point on the table is that banning ideas won't stop extremism.
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Universal Basic Income
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@secularmerlin
becomes a defacto revocable privilege.
A right cannot be contingent on a privilege.
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Universal Basic Income
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@fauxlaw
safety net
Many have no such thing.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Simply fractionalize the property.
This would require a loan for most people, so you are okay with mortgages existing?
You seem to have missed my primary hypothetical.

When your tenants pay rent you will give them a share of the building.

This does not require a loan.

Each share represents some fractional ownership of that building in the same way that owning stock represents some fractional ownership of a company.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
It's only "true" in the context of the hypothetical.
Ergo “under those circumstances”.
Valid but NOT Sound.

Valid (only true conditionally or hypothetically) but NOT Sound (demonstrably true and or logically-necessary).

A Valid statement MIGHT BE "true", but it is NOT "demonstrably true and or logically-necessary" unless it is both Valid and Sound.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The concept is the same. Let's say an apartment complex worth $2 million has 50 units being rented out. Fractionalized, each of those units are valued at about $40,000. Again not everyone has that kind of cash to spare.
I'm not suggesting anyone be required to pay the full amount up-front.

For example, someone might pay $750 per month and live in the same apartment for 10 years.

This would be about $90,000.00 in total.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Demand is loosely defined as the number of people willing and able to buy. Let's say there are currently 30 people trying to buy a home in my local area. If the two people I am renting my upstairs bedrooms to move out there will be 32 people in my local area trying to buy a house, thus an increase in demand. Potential sellers have more prospective buyers to take offers from, it is made more competitive for the buyers.Now there may be other separate cases of landlords who own property just for the purpose of renting those properties out and those people may be forced to sell those homes, likely at a loss, rather than upkeep them for no financial gain (option A of my previous post). That may seem to be an increase in supply at first glance (supply being defined as the number of people wanting to sell a property) but this would have no effect on the net supply/demand of the market due to that properties previous tenant being added to the demand pool at the same time.A potentially easier way to think of it... If two friends named Alice and Brandy are currently living together in an apartment because neither can afford the rent alone and not because they actually want to live together (a common situation) then some entity - likely governmental but the details are not relevant - announces that they wish to guarantee everyone has housing then Alice and Brandy will take advantage of that program to get their own places. Now suddenly two living units are required, one for Alice and one for Brandy, where only one unit was required before. Where does that extra unit come from?
Simply fractionalize the property.

You must give your tenants shares of your property (LLC) in exchange for rent (rent-to-own).

OR, sell the individual units (either apartments or single-family-homes) to the existing tenants (rent-to-own or they can apply for a loan).

Both supply and demand should remain unchanged.
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We should ban certain topics
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@oromagi
I personally would vote against banning any of these five.
IDEAS ARE NOT DANGEROUS.
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We should ban certain topics
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@Theweakeredge
THIS would end global warming.
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We should ban certain topics
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@Theweakeredge
Nuclear was necessitates mass destruction - furthermore - it is possible to do many good things through war - it is impossible to do these things through nuclear war. 
Nuclear weapons were used in WW2 and many people believe that worked out fine.

Furthermore, either answer my previous questions or I'm done here - I am not doing this song and dance again
Please be slightly more specific.
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We should ban certain topics
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@Theweakeredge
IF you define murder like that - which I clarified that I don't neccessarily 

Furthermore - demonstrate the claim: "It is impossible to derive motive" go ahead, do it
It is impossible to quantify the state of an individual human mind post-facto.

All discussion of motive and or intent, even discussion by the individual who actually committed the act itself is indistinguishable from OPINION.
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We should ban certain topics
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@Theweakeredge
Conventional War - the benefit from waging war can possibly outdo the negatives from war
I disagree.  The loss of life and trauma integral to the very definition of "war" cannot be recovered.

Nuclear War - everyone loses necessarily - there are no benefits
I disagree. Not every deployment of nuclear weapons causes "everyone to lose".

Very easy bud - furthermore, you have not substantiated your claims, do not shift the goal post
You have failed to substantiate any of your claims.
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We should ban certain topics
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@Theweakeredge
Vigilante justice often includes (de facto) murder.  For example, "self-defense" is (de facto) murder UNLESS magical "motive" can be "proved" ("self-defense" is vigilante justice).
"Often includes (de facto) murder" demonstrate that claim - and your "example" is based on a supposition that you can't prove motive, which you can. Furthermore, you completely ignored the second part of my argument - the whole legal definition thing.
It is impossible to "prove" motive.

(IFF) you define "murder" as "unjustified killing of one human being by another human being" (THEN) your precarious tautology is begging for a definition of "unjustified"
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@Theweakeredge
AND nuclear war is NOT somehow either more or less moral than any other type of war.IFF) any war is justifiable (THEN) nuclear war is justifiable
Demonstrate that claim, and this is begging the question of course if "ANY TYPE OF WAR" is justifiable then nuclear war is justifiable, nuclear war is a part of "any type of war", any type of war is what I don't accept - this is a sad collection of non-sequiturs and false equivalences. 
Please present an actual counter-argument.

(IFF) you believe that "nuclear war" is somehow fundamentally dissimilar to "conventional war" (THEN) please highlight those perceived differences
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
 Demand for housing would spike
Naked assertion.

while supply at best remains stable,
Naked assertion.

thus all else being equal property prices would increase.
Naked assertion.
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Universal Basic Income
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@Discipulus_Didicit
(IFF) you are "renting" someone a necessity (THEN) they should receive something tangible in return for their money.

(IFF) you want to sell some space in your home (THEN) fractionalize your home and sell the fractions (like shares of stock in a corporation).

Of course it makes sense that "single family homes" would have different rules than an apartment complex or other commercial property, but I'm just trying to integrate your example.

Perhaps you could convert your home into a "private club" with a very exclusive membership list that stipulates dues are paid monthly?
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We should ban certain topics
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@Theweakeredge
1  - Threat of Nuclear War is fundamentally different from Nuclear War - this is sad 3RU7AL
It is impossible to have a nuclear war without the capability and credible threat of a nuclear war.

AND while maintaining  the capability and credible threat of a nuclear war it is impossible to simultaneously fully mitigate the risk of an ACTUAL nuclear war.

The threat (and the benefits of a threat) are inextricably linked to the likelihood of actual nuclear war.

AND nuclear war is NOT somehow either more or less moral than any other type of war.

(IFF) any war is justifiable (THEN) nuclear war is justifiable

2. A better argument than the first one - however vigilante justice does not necessarily equate to murder - furthermore this is only using the legal definition of murder
Vigilante justice often includes (de facto) murder.  For example, "self-defense" is (de facto) murder UNLESS magical "motive" can be "proved" ("self-defense" is vigilante justice).

3. This should be a simple simple ethics impact check - is information more important or bodily agency, long-term physical and mental condition, the possibility of death. Information will rarely if ever be worth that - this is absurd.
It would be nice if everyone agreed with you, but unfortunately, the people extracting information do not maintain the slightest concern for individual sovereignty.

4 & 5: SOME INDIVIDUALS do not equate to EVERY INDIVIDUAL AS PART OF A GROUP - this is the saddest argument - stop.
The most common counter-argument to individualism is that ALL CLASSES OF HUMANS ARE EQUALLY CAPABLE OF ALL TASKS (and this equalism claim is demonstrably false).
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Universal Basic Income
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@fauxlaw
That's what I mean by personal responsibility.
So, you're saying you received no assistance from your parents and or friends and will grant no assistance to your children if and or when you happen to spawn them.
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We should ban certain topics
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@Theweakeredge
1. Threat of nuclear war maintains peace
2. Vigilante justice is a human right
3. Credible threat of torture can be an effective interrogation technique
4. Some individuals are better suited to particular tasks than other individuals
5. Some individuals are better suited to particular tasks than other individuals
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