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@drafterman
In those cases the war/sports jargon are metaphors for existing legal, political processes. For example "winning the battleground states" means to earn electoral votes in swing states. So the question arises: what is "trial by combat" analogous to? Any "battle" or "contest" is over. The counting of the votes my Congress is mostly a formality. The only issues to deal with are procedural ones. So if Guiliani isn't talking about literal trial by combat, what is he talking about?
Giuliani is talking about Republican officials contesting the certification.
It's the same sort of rhetoric people use when saying "we're going to kick their asses" or whatever.
Also, Giuliani is an idiot and I've never voted for a Republican.
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@FLRW
A report by Business Insider, cites an excerpt from the interview where Trump's ex-wife Ivana tells her lawyer Michael Kennedy that Trump reads a book of Hitler’s collected speeches, My New Order and keeps it in a cabinet by his bed.
I've read The Book of Mormon, does that automatically make me a Mormon?
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@Death23
This is not relevant to Trump's culpability.
Are the people who organized other protests that ended in burning buildings and broken windows also "culpable"?
I'm pretty sure only the individuals who actually committed actual crimes are "culpable".
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@Death23
Giuliani is obviously an idiot, but it seems pretty obvious he was speaking metaphorically, not LITERALLY.
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@Death23
Trump caused an angry mob to attack the capitol.
Trump encouraged protesters to march to the Capital Building.
This is hardly the first time protesters marched to the Capital Building.
Capital police let protesters into the building.
Do you think anti-Trump protesters would have acted any differently if they had been let into the building?
Don't you think that Nixon would have loved to paint the anti-war protesters as an "angry mob" of "domestic terrorists"?
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@Tarik
fact
[ fakt ]
noun
(1) something that actually exists; reality; truth:Your fears have no basis in fact.
IN ORDER FOR ANY THING TO QUALIFY AS "ACTUAL" IT MUST BE EMPIRICALLY DEMONSTRABLE (AND OR LOGICALLY NECESSARY).
(2) something known to exist or to have happened:Space travel is now a fact.
IN ORDER FOR ANY THING TO QUALIFY AS "KNOWN TO EXIST" IT MUST BE EMPIRICALLY DEMONSTRABLE (AND OR LOGICALLY NECESSARY).
(3) a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true:Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
IN ORDER FOR ANY THING TO QUALIFY AS "KNOWN BY ACTUAL EXPERIENCE OR OBSERVATION" IT MUST BE EMPIRICALLY DEMONSTRABLE (AND OR LOGICALLY NECESSARY).
(4) something said to be true or supposed to have happened:The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
IN ORDER FOR ANY THING TO QUALIFY AS "TRUE OR SUPPOSED TO HAVE HAPPENED" IT MUST BE EMPIRICALLY DEMONSTRABLE (AND OR LOGICALLY NECESSARY).
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@Dr.Franklin
those are all hypotheicals
This entire conversation is hypothetical.
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@sadolite
I do not base any of my decisions based on my emotions other than family matters. The family matter decisions are basically bowing to the absurd to get along. Emotion based decisions are the worst decisions you will ever make in your life.
Please provide an example of one of your "not-e-motion" based decisions.
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@Castin
Heh, gotta love that first woman who speaks up. "I still feel completely in the dark, and I'm surprised that you are one of the only people doing these public briefings. Why are we not hearing from the interim Capitol police chief?"
Yep.
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@dustryder
They certainly can and are entitled to as it's their platform.
Luckily this is motivating some to move to DECENTRALIZED PLATFORMS.
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@dustryder
Some were by definition no? Illegal acts of violence and/or intimidation against civilians with political purpose.
Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act "dangerous to human life" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Additionally, the acts have to occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and if they do not, may be regarded as international terrorism.
Section 802 does not create a new crime of domestic terrorism. However, it does expand the type of conduct that the government can investigate when it is investigating "terrorism." The USA PATRIOT Act expanded governmental powers to investigate terrorism, and some of these powers are applicable to domestic terrorism.
The definition of domestic terrorism is broad enough to encompass the activities of several prominent activist campaigns and organizations. Greenpeace, Operation Rescue, Vieques Island and WTO protesters and the Environmental Liberation Front have all recently engaged in activities that could subject them to being investigated as engaging in domestic terrorism. [LINK]
THEY'VE BASICALLY EXPANDED THE DEFINITION OF "TERRORISM" IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO STRIP YOUR CIVIL RIGHTS IF YOU HAPPEN TO PROTEST ANY GOVERNMENT POLICY YOU DON'T LIKE.
SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS BLOCKING TRAFFIC OR "GATHERING WITHOUT A PERMIT" QUALIFIES AS A "VIOLATION OF CRIMINAL LAWS".
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@Tradesecret
Except of course when you rule out evidence just because you don't like it.
What are your personally preferred Uniform Standards Of Evidence (USOE)?
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@HistoryBuff
The news is absolutely covering this story, so why are you continuing to pretend they aren't?
Every story on the event is completely missing the mark.
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@HistoryBuff
There is an investigation that will happen. Probably a whole bunch of them. Expecting the media to be able to provide you with that info now is unrealistic.
Great.
I certainly hope so.
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@HistoryBuff
And the truth is that very few people, if any at all, actually know that right now.
Try asking anyone in the Capitol police department.
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@HistoryBuff
From your POLITICO link,
The top House appropriator charged with funding the Capitol Police vowed Wednesday to investigate the law enforcement response to the violent mob that overtook the Capitol building and alluded to firings to come among the force.Rep. Tim Ryan (D-Ohio) told reporters after the rioting had subsided that "there were some strategic mistakes from the very beginning."“I think it’s pretty clear that there’s going to be a number of people who are going to be without employment very, very soon," Ryan said, "because this is an embarrassment — both on behalf of the mob and the president, and the insurrection and the attempted coup, but also the lack of professional planning and dealing with what we knew was going to occur."“You can bet your ass that we’re going to get to the bottom of it,” the Ohio Democrat said.
It's all very general language.
It's as if everyone just forgot about the CHAIN OF COMMAND.
I'm looking for interviews with actual Capital police officers and commanders.
I'll let you know when I find something.
All of the coverage seems to revolve around how evil the protestors are.
And the apparent Capital police complicity is being framed by reporters conjecturing that "poor planning" and "general incompetence" are "responsible".
All of the coverage seems to revolve around how evil the protestors are.
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@HistoryBuff
STRANGELY NO QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO GAVE THE ORDER FOR THE POLICE TO "STAND DOWN".That question is being asked. There are investigations being started into what happened. Why are you insisting no one is asking questions when they are?
STRANGELY NO QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO GAVE THE ORDER FOR THE POLICE TO "STAND DOWN".
SPECIFICALLY IN THE ARTICLES CITED (NYT MSNBC).
AND CERTAINLY NOT IN THE "OFFICAL" HEADLINES.
PLEASE PROVIDE A LINK IF YOU'VE GOT ONE HANDY.
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@HistoryBuff
IT'S PRETTY HANDY TO BE ABLE TO CALL EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU "TERRORISTS".they attacked the US government to stop them from counting the results of a democratic election. They were chanting that they wanted to murder the vice president. They brought guns, pipe bombs, molitov cocktails etc. They attacked police.The definition of a terrorist is "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." That describes what those people did to a tee. They came to use violence and intimidation to influence the outcome of a democratic election.
Ok, so are we now only going to allow protestors that agree with you?
Do you see the problem?
CLEARLY, NOT ALL OF THE PROTESTORS WERE VIOLENT PSYCHOPATHS WEILDING DEADLY WEAPONS.
They were mostly just milling around aimlessly once they got into the building.
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@HistoryBuff
Scarborough is talking about how the police let them in. So your objections seems to be they aren't playing the specific footage you want them to show while the cover the story you claim they aren't covering.
When you hear the words "they let them in" you see protestors jumping through broken windows.
Visually this contradicts what you're hearing and suggests that the police "let them in" metaphorically by their incompetence.
NEVER MIND THE FACT THAT A NEWSCASTER MAKING A NAKED ASSERTION WITH ZERO EVIDENCE AMOUNTS TO AN OPINION STATED AS FACT.
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@Tarik
I can't define what I don't know which I've uttered before, by the looks of it your applying the principle of charity because you don't know what you're taking about either and since we both can't follow it I think the most logical move forward is to abandon the argument and present another one to make your case.
fact
[ fakt ]
noun
(1) something that actually exists; reality; truth:Your fears have no basis in fact.
(2) something known to exist or to have happened:Space travel is now a fact.
(3) a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true:Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
(4) something said to be true or supposed to have happened:The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
Does this meet with your approval?
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@dustryder
I don't need to. It's Twitters platform. You may peruse their terms of service and community guidelines at your leisure.
Interestingly, their banning policy has absolutely no statistical, legal, or logical correlation with their "terms of service".
They can ban anyone at any time for any reason.
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@dustryder
Biden: "What we witnessed yesterday was not dissent. It was not disorder. It was not protest. It was chaos. They weren't protesters. Don't dare call them protesters. They were a riotous mob. Insurrectionists. Domestic terrorists. It's that basic, it's that simple." - - [LINK]
IT'S PRETTY HANDY TO BE ABLE TO CALL EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU "TERRORISTS".
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@HistoryBuff
Biden: "What we witnessed yesterday was not dissent. It was not disorder. It was not protest. It was chaos. They weren't protesters. Don't dare call them protesters. They were a riotous mob. Insurrectionists. Domestic terrorists. It's that basic, it's that simple." - - [LINK]
IT'S PRETTY HANDY TO BE ABLE TO CALL EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU "TERRORISTS".
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@Tarik
You pick whatever definition you personally prefer, and I'll demonstrate how it can be condensed down to its core components.Excuse me? You're the one that's making a claim so the burden of proof is on you to provide support of the definition your using, and for the record you can't define something by telling me what it's not you define it by telling me what it is.
It's called "the principle of charity".
Instead of arguing over what's a "valid definition" I'll just let you pick one for me.
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@Dr.Franklin
i would say 8 generations back, you wouldn't connect super well to the rest
I see.
So, every time a new generation is born we can just cancel any "pride" we might feel for the 9th generation ancestors?
What if I can't "connect super well" with my grandparents?
What if I'm a mud-blood mongrel and my great-grandparents were moral enemies?
Should I be "proud" of their "accomplishments" of killing each other?
What if I have no idea who my ancestors were?
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@TheUnderdog
what does ideal "ASSIMILATION" mean to you in practical terms?Assimilating to the US means learning enough English to get by.
Do you somehow imagine that all homeless people don't understand english?
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@TheUnderdog
1) Learning English for any immigrant is something that makes them fiscally wealthier and makes life easier. More wealth per immigrant means less welfare that has to be paid to them.
THIS IS ALREADY A REQUIREMENT.
2) It prevents separatist movements in the US along ethnic grounds.
WHY DO TEXAS, CALIFORNIA, OREGON, AND VIRGINA KEEP TALKING ABOUT SECESSION? - - [LINK]
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@TheUnderdog
That may be the case, but the Chinese don’t kill each other anymore, so can’t they all get along?
Why can't democrats and republicans "all get along"?
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@TheUnderdog
How are you going to track down the person you plan on charging a dime?Anytime someone spreads an STI, whoever gets the disease reports it to the police and the police make the person who spread the disease get it treated, along with the person who contracted the disease. The reward for those who get the disease telling the cops is $100, paid for by the person who spread the disease.If you have an STI, just get it treated; it’s not that hard.
What if you were infected by an unidentified homeless person who doesn't have any money?
Or what if you were infected by someone who didn't give you their phone number of other contact information?
Or what if you were the victim of an assault and the cops can't figure out who they are?
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@TheUnderdog
The people of China have a rich diversity of regional customs, beliefs, dialects and histories.I can’t tell. I’m white and I also can’t tell an ethnic Italian from an ethnic Greek, provided they are assimilated Americans. America has different regional customs in that if you live in PA, your more likely to eat a Philly cheesesteak, the religious beliefs in China are mostly bhuddist. History differences I fail to see how they are relevant.
"History differences I fail to see how they are relevant."
They are relevant because the many regions of what is now called China have a very long history of killing each other.
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@Dr.Franklin
Take pride in it but also know it now your responsibily to please your ancestors who look above
How many generations back should I be "proud of"?
Should I be "proud of" my grandparents?
Should I be "proud of" my great-grandparents?
Should I be "proud of" the ancient tribal people who made the lives of my great-grandparents possible?
At what point in history can I stop being "proud" of my "ancestors"?
How far back is, "too far"?
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@Tarik
I would ask you to show support of that definition.
You pick whatever definition you personally prefer, and I'll demonstrate how it can be condensed down to its core components.
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@Dr.Franklin
no, parents meeting isnt by just accidetal
Are you certain about that?
Did your parents have a detailed skill based plan of how they were going to meet each other before they fell in love?
Did your parents specifically choose you from a list of all possible children?
Or was your specific birth more of a "roll of the dice"?
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@HistoryBuff
I GENERALLY EXPECT THE PROFESSIONALS TO BE BETTER INFORMED THAN MYSELF.this story has been covered on the news. They just used other clips. That has nothing to do with how well informed they are.
STRANGELY NO QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO GAVE THE ORDER FOR THE POLICE TO "STAND DOWN".
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@HistoryBuff
I watched the full 7 minute Scarborough rant.
Ok, here's a clip from MSNBC - [LINK]
It's an uncut 7 minutes of AUDIO from the Scarborough rant with the f bomb clipped out.
In the full context, especially with the audio played over "scary" images of protestors clashing with police, the rant itself plays very strongly as a PRO-POLICE-STATE rant.
Make sure you pay attention to the part where they emphasize that "trumppies are cult members" (of course biden supporters aren't cult members, of course not).
I believe this clip also plays well because it suggests that the TRUMPPIES and the POLICE are "RACISTS" (pure rampant speculation, opinion stated as fact).
THEY COULD HAVE EASILY SHOWN THE 57 SECOND LONG CLIP IN THE FULL 7 MINUTES THEY DEVOTED TO THIS RANT.
Instead, when the Scarborough says "the cops opened the doors for them", that audio plays over protestors entering the building through a broken window and footage of protestors entering through a broken door and smashing a window with their fist.
The video very specifically suggests that the Scarborough is speaking metaphorically, as if their incompetence "opened the door". the Scarborough does devote a good portion of the rant to complaining about how unprepared the police seemed to be.
the Scarborough practically rants, "WE NEED TANKS AND MACHINEGUN NESTS AND RAZOR-WIRE ON EVERY STREET IN WASHINGTON!!!!!"
THEY COULD HAVE EASILY SHOWN THE 57 SECOND LONG CLIP.
WHY NOT JUST SHOW THE CLIP.
STRANGELY NO QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO GAVE THE ORDER FOR THE POLICE TO "STAND DOWN".
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@HistoryBuff
Your "Business Insider" story links to a NYT ("the newspaper of record") story:
"But they could not find Mr. Schumer’s office. He said they asked a Capitol Police officer, who tried to direct them. But they appeared to have gotten nowhere near the minority’s leader’s office."
The headline of the story is very very scary,
These Are the Rioters Who Stormed the Nation’s Capitol
The mob that rampaged the halls of Congress included infamous white supremacists and conspiracy theorists. [LINK]
The story describes the protestors as milling around, randomly vandalizing offices and smoking marijuana while the police stood by politely.
STRANGELY NO QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO GAVE THE ORDER FOR THE POLICE TO "STAND DOWN".
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@HistoryBuff
It certainly seems "news-worthy" to me.it is newsworthy. which is why it has been covered by the news.... they just used other clips of the police letting people through.
In the seven minute long Scarborough rant, they exclusively showed clashes between police and protestors.
The WUSA9 story showed footage of police following protestors which looks like the protestors are being herded politely by police.
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@HistoryBuff
I STILL HAVEN'T SEEN THE 57 SECOND CLIP IN QUESTION COVERED BY ANY "OFFICIAL" "NEWS" SOURCES.so the news has been covering the exact topic you want them to, but because they didn't use the exact video clip you want them to, it must be evidence they are covering it up? even though they are covering the exact story you are talking about?
I GENERALLY EXPECT THE PROFESSIONALS TO BE BETTER INFORMED THAN MYSELF.
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@HistoryBuff
I specifically suspected that somebody else had already uploaded the video and mine would be flagged as a duplicate.then why would you care? taking down duplicates of something is hardly evidence of any ill intent on the part of anyone.
I never suggested "ill intent".
Wow.
LEAP TO CONCLUSIONS MUCH?
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@HistoryBuff
the police letting people through has been getting coverage.
Oh, good.
Do you have a link perhaps?
All I can find are small, local news stations "speculating" that "at best the police were overwhelmed and at worst they were complicit" suggesting ambiguity. [LINK]
WASHINGTON — Congressman Jim Cooper (D) from Tennessee spoke with WUSA9's Adam Longo on Wednesday about some strong concerns and possible allegations to levee against US Capitol Police.
His fear? US Capitol Police were somehow complicit in allowing the Capitol to be breached.
"Some people are worried today that some police were complicit with the protesters," Cooper said. "It's one thing to be friendly and to de-escalate the violence. But it's one thing to take selfies with them (rioters) and let them go through the lines."
Cooper said he did not see these actions by Capitol Police himself, but said he's "never seen a crowd less afraid of the police than this one."
"At best they were overwhelmed and did not anticipate what they had been warned of by (President) Trump, even as of this morning when he said he would join the protests at the Capitol. ... At worst, they let this protest proceed unlike any other," Cooper said when asked directly if he believes that US Capitol Police were complicit in what happened.
STRANGELY, NO ACTUAL VIDEO FOOTAGE OF THE PROTESTORS PEACEFULLY WALKING PAST THE POLICE OFFICERS INTO THE BUILDING THEY WERE "PROTECTING".
I GUESS I'M JUST A BETTER JOURNALIST THAN THE PROFESSIONALS...
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@HistoryBuff
I hadn't "heard a peep" about THE 57 SECOND CLIP IN QUESTION.ok, but his point is that the police letting people through has been getting coverage. So the fact that you personally haven't seen it is kind of irrelevant. It is getting covered.
I STILL HAVEN'T SEEN THE 57 SECOND CLIP IN QUESTION COVERED BY ANY "OFFICIAL" "NEWS" SOURCES.
It certainly seems "news-worthy" to me.
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@HistoryBuff
this says more about you than anything else. You are surprised that some secret cabal hasn't taken down your post.
I've had uploads insta-banned before.
My personal expression of surprise does not constitute a "conspiracy theory".
You're LEAPING TO CONCLUSIONS.
I specifically suspected that somebody else had already uploaded the video and mine would be flagged as a duplicate.
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@dustryder
I do understand where you are coming from in that conspiratorial conversation should not be a barrier to fact based conversation. However in this instance unfettered conspiratorial nonsense has lead to unrest, death and destruction, so it's justified in this instance
A post-facto (consequentialist) criteria seems less than ideal.
Can't you think of some uniform and unbiased QUANTIFIABLE censorship standards?
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@Tarik
Maybe, maybe not, one way I get to the bottom of this is by asking what this "logically-coherent" statement means.
It means "NOT self-contradictory".
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@Tarik
How about this,
(IFF) TRALICON = GRENBALDI + QUENRAK (THEN) GRENBALDI + QUENRAK = TRALICON
This is an example of a TAUTOLOGICAL STATEMENT.
This statement is TRUE by DEFINITION.
This statement is logically-coherent.
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@Theweakeredge
"What evidence would convince you?" I don't know,
I'd settle for a talking donkey and a holy hit-man.
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@Theweakeredge
Are you saying the only way to solve murder is by seeing it happen? Is that what you are claiming? Are you saying that the only way of figuring out who washed the dishes is by seeing them wash the dishes? No. NO it's not. You can see the demonstratable effects and test them to see if they can cause predictable results, you can test, and eventually demonstrate things by running experimentation.
Well stated.
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@dustryder
Is a description of general messaging insufficient to show usage of platform to sow civil unrest?
No. At least not the general description you provided.
Look,
Do you believe vote rigging and or vote manipulation and or voter suppression and or voter manipulation is possible?
Do you believe that all claims related to these possible events and or activities should be systematically banned from all public discussion?
In broader terms,
Do you believe all criminal accusations and suspicions of criminal activity should be systematically banned from all public discussion?
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@Tarik
I don't know because I don't know what any of that means, but what's your point?
My point is that if you can't verify a (statement of) FACT (an implicit factual claim), then you can't properly call it a FACT.
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@Tarik
it's still a fact regardless of whether or not we can determine if it is,
GRENBALDI + QUENRAK = TRALICON
Is this a factual statement?
Is this statement "true" regardless of whether you verify it or not?
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