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@RaymondSheen
Macro evolution isn't in accordance with the Bible and has never been observed.
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@MAV99
But what about the lack of evidence makes reasonable conclusions unreasonable?
there is extremely reliable evidence that shows property similarity is strongly correlated with levels of interaction
claiming otherwise would obviously contradict not only the evidence, but logic itself
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@MAV99
repeating your proposition does not prove it.Can you answer why or not?
there is no conceivable example of two fundamentally distinct substances interacting
we can observe interactions
some interactions are strong
these strong interactions are interactions between substances that share MORE properties
some interactions are weak
these weak interactions are interactions between substances that share FEWER properties
we use logic to conclude
that zero shared properties equals zero interaction
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@MAV99
the two must share a fundamental substrateYou still have not answered why...
if your god was made of neutrons, it would have a lot of trouble detecting humans
you can only interact with things you can detect
you can only detect things which are composed of fundamentally similar substance
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@MAV99
He is "seperate" in the sense that he is not of the universe.Does not mean He cannot interact with it.
ok, so not fundamentally separate
your god shares some fundamental similarity with everything it can interact with
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@Best.Korea
There is an old Taoist parable that might better illustrate the flexibility of determining whether any given event in your life is "good" or "bad".
There was a farmer who one day left his stable door ajar and his horse wandered away.
His neighbor notes, "it is a terrible thing that you forgot to secure your stable, for now you have lost your only horse."
The farmer doesn't reply.
A few days later his horse returned with a wild horse.
His neighbor is surprised and exclaims, "it is a wonderful thing that you forgot to secure your stable! Because now you have two horses!"
The farmer doesn't reply.
A week later the farmer's son is training the new horse and is thrown onto a rock and breaks his leg.
The neighbor sympathetically comments, "it is a terrible thing that you forgot to secure your stable, because now your son is lame."
The farmer doesn't reply.
The next year their king declares war and forcibly recruits all of the able bodied young men to fight.
The neighbor chuckles, "it is a wonderful thing that you forgot to secure your stable, because your son, being lame, will not have to face the horrors of battle."
The farmer doesn't reply.
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@RaymondSheen
I've always thought that not being able to yell FIRE! in a crowded movie theater because idiots who can't think for themselves would panic and kill one another trying to escape the madness was, well, stupid. Hate speach. How stupid. I hate hate speach but that goes without saying. Or is that thinking? It goes without thinking.
well stated
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@MAV99
maybe, "spirit" or whatever you want to call itNo. I do not call it a spirit. That has nothing to do with what I am talking about.We most definitely can observe the order of the particles. That is what I am talking about. In fact, I will argue this "order of the particles" is what makes something what it is.
how can your god be considered "separate" from the material world
if your god can interact with the material world
the two must share a fundamental substrate
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@MAV99
Ah! Ok! I see where you are going with this.So, materially speaking, everything is the same. I agree!But... are they the same thing...formally? Meaning are the different neutrinos, electrons, neutrons, protons, whatever you want to call them, ordered the same way in everything?
they are all made of energy
that is the fundamental similarity that we can observe
different configurations of a fundamental substrate
now, if we hypothesise another layer more fundamental than that
maybe, "spirit" or whatever you want to call it
that we cannot observe scientifically
we can know for certain
that if this "spirit" can interact with observable energy
then energy and "spirit" must share some fundamental substrate
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well, matter and antimatter can only interact by annihilating each other - - they both exist in a QUANTIFIABLE sense - - but cannot "interact" in the full range that we normally think - - neutrinos are another example, they only interact extremely weakly with normal matter because they have greatly reduced similarity, but they still interact because they maintain a fundamental similarity - - - "anything" fundamentally dissimilar would be mutually undetectable
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@Moozer325
The god thing was simpler, but it wasn’t correct.
i'm not sure plate tectonics proves or disproves the wrath of god
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@RaymondSheen
He wrote it in a book. Think of a science book but more accurate. Think of a cave painting or pottery shards and bone fragments, but better.
does this god of yours have a y chromosome ?
also
how do we know which book is written by the real god(s)
and which book is written by a fake god(s) ?
there are a lot of holy books
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@RaymondSheen
We were created in his image.
and we know this how ?
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@baggins
so they were not really taking anything from the Palestinians.
except their farms and homes
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@RaymondSheen
Omnivore. Saying that Jehovah God is presented by his word the Bible as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent or omnibenevolent in the theological sense is like saying an omnivore can eat the space-time continuum and nuclear weapons.Omniscient means knowing all in an exaggerated sense. Like Santa knows when you are sleeping. God didn't know what Adam and Eve had done until he asked them, he didn't know what Cain had done until he asked him; he sent three angels to ascertain whether or not reports he heard were accurate and he sent Joshua and the spies out in the land to report on it before they went in. God doesn't know what it is like to experience sin.Is he omnipotent in the theologically exaggerated sense? No. God can't lie. God can't die. God can't come to this universe. (1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chronicles 2:6) If he can't do that he certainly isn't omnipresent. And if he destroyed the entire world once, and soon again how can he be omnibenevolent? All the omni's as they are presented, are religious superstitious nonsense.
i mean, great
if you don't believe in a god that contains all power and all knowledge
that's perfectly fine with me
and if that god happens to be inexplicable
even better
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@Moozer325
Ive been atheist for a while now, but I’m just realizing that I haven’t really heard both sides of the argument. No disrespect to Alex O’Connor, but I feel like sometimes the sources I’m getting this stuff from can be a little one-sided, and what better place to hear the other side, than right here?
omniscient omnipotent creator is definitely true
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@Tradesecret
The Christian religion - at least the Reformed part of that religion says it is impossible for someone to become a true Christian. For me, that is one of the strongest arguments for the existence of the Christian God. We say that people only become Christians because God reveals himself to them by revelation. Hence, it is impossible to prove his existence.
i'm not sure how this could be considered a "strong argument" for christianity specifically
the question of "god(s) or not god(s)" is one thing
the question of "why this flavor of religion and not one of the thousands of other religions" is a completely different question
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@zedvictor4
I'm also a traditional atheist.And also willing to be convinced otherwise.Though I would require hard evidence.Not myth and legend fantasy magical stuff.
i used to think there was absolutely no way an atheist would ever convert to christianity
but i've had a chance to speak to a few individuals who make this claim
and it essentially boils down to a specific PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
not "an argument" or "evidence"
it's a private epiphany
GNOSIS
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@Savant
If you have the patience to watch a 1hr debate and want to see Alex debate someone on his level, I'd recommend his discussion with William Lane Craig on the Kalam cosmological argument.There are people who absolutely hate Craig, but he's probably as deep as you get into complex apologetics. If you want someone who appeals more to the "common man," I'd recommend John Lennox and his debate with Hitchens.
thanks for the links
i will give these a watch
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inexplicable events may be "hypothetically true" but we can't properly describe inexplicable events as "provably true" - - and "provably true" is the only flavor of "true" that counts in logic - - this is obvious when you use the example of mathematics - - - nobody is going to believe an inexplicable equation or mathematical claim unless it is "provably true" - - - - i would consider PSR to be a standard of "provably true"
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@zedvictor4
So for example, if you wanted to buy something from me priced at £1000, and I demanded payment in pounds sterling, and you only had bitcoin.How would that work?
just like if i owned corporate stock
i would sell the stock on an exchange
and give you the currency you personally preferred
or
if you accepted the stock
i would give you the stock
and you could exchange it at your leisure
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@Moozer325
Honestly, that was a really funny video.
some (if not most) people prefer simple explanations
so, when you say "better alternative"
perhaps you could be slightly more specific
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@Sidewalker
Spacetime has no objective reality
please explain gravitational lensing
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@MAV99
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by "substance"
are you familiar with neutrinos ?
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@Greyparrot
i have a feeling that you probably want to stay alive and pursue comfort and avoid suffering
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The symbol "◻" typically denotes necessity in modal logic, and "¬" denotes negation. So, "◻¬(absolute nothingness)" means "It is necessarily true that absolute nothingness does not exist." If you agree with "¬(absolute nothingness -> something)," it means you believe "It is not true that absolute nothingness implies something."
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@Best.Korea
Thus, when people believe in causations they never observed, they might as well believe in santa.
HISTORY = FICTION
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@Greyparrot
Sadly, evolution doesn't care about feelings.
great argument, kill everyone
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@Moozer325
A quick google told me that “parsimonious” is basically equivalent to Occam’s razor. Correct me if I’m wrong. If that is what you meant, first, how is creationism the simplest explanation? (This is a genuine question, sorry if It came of a sarcastic). Second, if you are right, it’s Occam’s Razor versus tons of scientific evidence, so you tell me who wins.
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@Greyparrot
None of the dead Nazis, Romans, Confederates, or baby killing Aztecs will ever appreciate the tears.
we're not worried about the dead ones
we're worried about the rest of us currently alive ones
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@ADreamOfLiberty
So are nazis, sometimes humans need to be bombed.
we only bombed twenty percent of nazi germany
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@Moozer325
creationism is superior because it is parsimonious
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@Greyparrot
I just find it weird that the same ultra-educated on US universities are against killing for a select group, and are just fine killing other brown people in the Middle East to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars....
i wonder why nobody protested the iraq war
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@TheUnderdog
The love of diversity increases with one's distance from it. I just don't care how white/non white the neighborhood I live in is. I care more about cheap property that is within driving distance of my job. If that's in Vermont, then fine. If it's in East Hartford, then fine. I don't care.
sure, your personal preferences are not in dispute
we're talking about societal preferences
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@MAV99
must necessarily be fundamentally comprised of the same substanceNope.To say they are the same substance is to say they are the same actual thing.That is absurd.
two fundamentally distinct substances cannot interact
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@Best.Korea
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I take it the main question here is whether the PSR is true. Or, we can put this ontologically: what is it that would make the PSR true? Or epistemically: what it is that would warrant our knowledge that the PSR is true?
It is Kant, in The Critique of Pure Reason, who famously both makes these sorts of questions explicit and defends some influential reasons to doubt the PSR, or at least doubt the PSR in some relevant contexts.
In answering what I have just called the ontological and epistemic questions, Kant argues that what makes the PSR true/what warrants our knowledge of the PSR is its transcendental ideality. That is, on Kant's view, the PSR is a principle which necessarily governs any rational act of conceptualizing what one experiences, so that it serves as a norm of reasoning or as a basis for producing concepts about nature from our experiences. The positive result of this position is that we have a reason to think that the PSR holds in principle whenever any rational agent is cognizing their experiences, and so holds in principle as a norm or basis of scientific reasoning. The negative result of this position is that, because the PSR is grounded in the necessary conditions of reasoning about experience, it is being misapplied if it is taken as a basis or norm for things beyond our experience. This is to say that, while we can know that the PSR is a principle governing our cognition, we cannot know that it is a principle governing things-in-themselves, or nature as it is independent of our cognition of it. This prohibits its use in metaphysical arguments like the cosmological argument for God, where it is taken as the norm governing a causal series extending beyond our experience to a first cause which lies outside it.
So this sort of position is probably the most famous case of a mitigated skepticism regarding the PSR. But there are of course people who defend the PSR against this kind of criticism, as well as those who defend a broader skepticism regarding it. [[]]
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@MarkWebberFan2
The international community is concerned with apolitical transference of humanitarian resources, so those don't necessarily count when we're discussing the real true beliefs of either the jews or muslims.
it doesn't matter what they believe
they are still humans
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@MAV99
well, all things observable and knowable, both directly and indirectly, must necessarily be fundamentally comprised of the same substance, if you're looking for a "god" we can be certain that any "god" is fundamentally comprised of the same substance as everything else - - - because if it wasn't, it would be mutually undetectable
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@TheUnderdog
schools are also becoming more homogeneousI don't think this is true.
The U.S. student population is more diverse, but schools are still highly segregated [[LINK]]
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@zedvictor4
How is the Bitcoin price calculated.
market value
just like gold
or a corporate stock certificate
or an exchange of foreign currency
or a lobster
or a bushel of wheat
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@Stephen
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@TheUnderdog
but people have a strong tendency to integrate with other nationalities in the US.
schools are also becoming more homogeneous
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@TheUnderdog
If immigrants wanted segregation, then America is the wrong place to move as ethnic neighborhoods are hard to find in the US.
word of the day
also
churches are extremely homogeneous
the average church is 90% homogeneous
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@TheUnderdog
You can get the same services whether you are a Haitian living in a Haitian Neighborhood or in Suburbia.
there once was an immigrant family from france who moved to cincinnati
they specifically chose to move into a neighborhood
near a french bakery
where they happened to know another french family
i'm not sure this is a "bad idea"
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@TheUnderdog
What if the expats living in the US learn English (most do)? If they didn't know English, then understandable. But about 50% of immigrants that move to America are fluent in English I think (Chat GPT), and their kids are especially more likely to be fluent in English. There is a reason why we are a melting pot rather than a mosaic.
sure, but even spanish speaking people tend to gravitate to spanish speaking neighborhoods
it's much easier to relate to people who share traditions and culture
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@TheUnderdog
Integrating doesn't require additional cost.
expect or desire
you skipped over the expect or desire part
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