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@zedvictor4
Perhaps intelligent life somehow accelerates the second law of thermodynamics.Life and consequently intelligent life is perhaps, just a means to one end, whilst at the same time being a part of the means to an ultimate end and a new beginning.
Possibly in the form of some sort of universe ending doomsday device.
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@Mopac
We can't know what you're talking about because your claim is regarding,
PRIVATE-INFORMATION, AKA, GNOSIS, AKA, UNFALSIFIABLE, AKA, QUALITATIVE, AKA, EXPERIENTIAL, AKA, UNVERIFIABLE OPINION.
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@Athias
That makes her time, labor, and resources subject to the jurisdiction and arbitration of the State.
I'm not sure how this is considered an extraordinary case.
The time, labor, and resources of all citizens is subject to the jurisdiction and arbitration (whim) of the state.
Pretty much the only thing they don't already own (capriciously confiscate (take ownership of) at will) is your body and whatever might be inside it.
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@Athias
No, it's not. Metaphysical objectivity is a consequence of logic, and has no form outside human rationalization.
Please present your definition of "objectivity".
The objectivity to which I refer is epistemological, and requires no preponderance beyond reason.
No human can avoid SAMPLE-BIAS.
Not even computers are capable of OBJECTIVITY. For example, [LINK]
Your being subjective isn't a concern of lexical semantics, but a calculus of propositional logic. It's true by its mere statement, language notwithstanding.
TRUTH is merely TAUTOLOGICAL (conditional upon acceptance of any particular definition).
TAUTOLOGICAL =/= OBJECTIVE
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@Athias
The state obligates her to provide her time, labor, and resources to her infant. She may only relinquish this responsibility if only if she's able to transfer this responsibility to another (e.g. medical professionals, public servants, prospective adoptive parents, etc.) That makes her time, labor, and resources subject to the jurisdiction and arbitration of the State.
This is not necessarily true.
Most jurisdictions have exceptions to child abandonment in the form of safe haven laws. Safe Haven Laws allow mothers to safely abandon their newborn infants in safe locations - such as churches, hospitals, and fire stations - without fear of being charged with the crime of child abandonment. [*]
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@Dr.Franklin
If you like that, you'll love this, [LINK]
Regarding the "meaning of life".
You can never logically get an "ought" from an "is".
Ought = Qualia
Is = Quanta
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@Mopac
We can't know what you're talking about because your claim is regarding,Doesn't mean you understand what I am talking about though.
PRIVATE-INFORMATION, AKA, GNOSIS, AKA, UNFALSIFIABLE, AKA, QUALITATIVE, AKA, EXPERIENTIAL, AKA, UNVERIFIABLE OPINION.
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@Athias
No, the State effectively controls the lands, roads, bridges, and the money. It does not "own" it.
The state can capriciously raise taxes on your land.
Land Taxation = a De Facto indefinite lease which means if you don't pay your taxes, the land reverts back to the state.
In a very real and practical sense you are merely leasing the land, you do not own it, the state owns it and they are charging you rent.
The state can take your land at will by declaring "eminent domain".
The state can invade your land with police forces at any moment based on whatever rules they decide to fabricate ad hoc.
Your only recourse if you perceive an injustice is to petition the state, the same state that is responsible for the injustice.
That would be like asking a serial killer to also preside as the judge at their own trial.
For years experts have warned Americans how budget bill after budget bill has moved through Congress and signed by the President which would allow banks to simply confiscate depositors' money. This has happened in other countries across the globe, most notably in Cyprus, Greece and we are being warned again that the day is now rapidly approaching where bail-ins will be a fact of life right here in the USA. [*]
If your money is in a bank, then the bank controls your money.
The state controls the banks and de facto owns your money.
Your bank accounts can be frozen with zero notice for any reason or non-reason or level of suspicion, justified or not.
If you are discovered to have more than a couple thousand dollars in cash, then your cash can be confiscated on the spot, without due process.
This is not a joke.
She can only dispossess her obligation if she's able to legally alienate it to another...
If you'd be so kind as to rephrase this.
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@Athias
It's TAUTOLOGICAL.The argument, "humans are subjective" isn't objective?
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@Athias
Because the state owns the land and the roads and the bridges and the money, but NOT HER BODY.Why does the state get to compel those, but not her body?
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@Fallaneze
Please explain how anything objective can be less than 100% objective.The truth of moral propositions are contained in rationality and the standards of rationality are at least partially objective.
Please explain how anything subjective can be less than 100% subjective.
Please make your preferred definition of objectivity explicit.
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@Reece101
intersubjective [ in-ter-suh b-jek-tiv ] adjective Philosophy - comprehensible to, relating to, or used by a number of persons, such as a concept or language. [*]
And,
For example, social psychologists Alex Gillespie and Flora Cornish list at least six definitions of intersubjectivity (and other disciplines have additional definitions). [*]
For example, intersubjectivity is postulated as playing a role in establishing the truth of propositions, and constituting the so-called objectivity of objects. [*]
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@Reece101
Objectivity for me doesn’t inherently entail fact. It just means there’s a common idea. An idea independent of any one individual. Does it make sense?
Yes, that makes perfect sense.
I believe the word you're looking for is "intersubjective".
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@Athias
You're not necessarily contradicting my point. You argue only that this arbitration is subject to the jurisdiction of a territory.
It's basically the same as what you said.
The mother has sole jurisdiction over her womb.
When the life-form moves outside of that jurisdiction (womb) it is subject to the laws of that new land.
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@secularmerlin
...the objective fact that most people are of the subjective opinion...
I'm not entirely certain that's an "objective fact".
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@Dr.Franklin
What you are referring to is called, THE-LOGICAL-NECESSITY.The first cause is the creation of the universe and GOD
Another term for the-logical-necessity is NOUMENON.
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@Reece101
Both of you have changed your’ positions on how to define objectivity, driving it to its extreme, with the help of my input. Don’t criticise me about altering language. ”Objectivity” for you guys now is essentially on par with ”God”. We can play defining games all day
I think you misunderstand my intention.
You can make up your own definition of "objectivity" and I will simply check it for logical coherence.
I will treat your personal definition of "objectivity" with the exact same respect (and probably more) that I would give to any standard dictionary.
It's not a "semantics game" or a "definition game".
It's a simple pursuit of logical coherence.
And hey, I'm a huge fan of determinism, or rather, indeterminism (which is functionally identical to determinism).
Freewill is patently incoherent.
Perhaps we agree on more than we first thought.
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@TheRealNihilist
I don't really want to continue this conversation. Next time I'll just go straight into commenting what I want instead of asking you questions in hopes to not require even more questions to understand.
Well, if you pick a spot on the ground (a random topic) and you start digging (investigating, asking questions), you will very likely find things you weren't expecting to find long before you hit bedrock (or your shovel breaks, which seems to be the case this time).
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@TheRealNihilist
The blood group commonality between humans and other animals thus is not a new revelation, but this raises question of why xenotransfusion was not seriously decades ago.
One reason is because, despite ABO and Rh commonality, there are minor differences between the blood of humans, apes, and other animals whose effects on transfusion would have to be understood completely. Humans also may still have some lingering superstitions about blood from non-humans that make xenotransfusion unpalatable. Also, when it comes to great apes, they are endangered. They’re not like cows and pigs that simply are bred in industrial quantities to serve humans. So, even while it might be no more trouble for an ape to donate blood than for a hen to lay eggs, the supply of ape blood would be fairly small anyway.
Thus, as we consider xenotransfusion pigs might actually be a more feasible option, and in fact that’s what’s happening. Xenotransfusion research currently focusses on pigs, not apes, and it’s not just because pigs are abundant. They’re blood actually is quite similar to human blood. The size of red blood cells is similar. So is the typical red blood cell life span, the hemoglobin content and structure, and other factors, plus pigs can be genetically modified to produce red blood cells that are equivalent to human type O negative. As noted earlier, that’s the universal donor blood, and this makes xenotransfusion sound very attractive, although, other ways to make O negative blood also beckon. [LINK]
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@Reece101
You’ve driven objectivity to its extreme.
I've done nothing of the sort.
I'm willing to entertain any definition you care to personally select.
Build your case from scratch if you'd like.
So every thought you produce is first subject to bias/emotions?
More specifically sample-bias and chemical/biological imperative (e-motion generated by the human/mammalian limbic system).
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@Reece101
Can any concept be objective (absolute)?
No.
By definition, humans are fundamentally subjective.
Everything you know is sample-biased and a consequence of your human motives (e-motions).
FACTS exist, but they are merely TAUTOLOGICAL.
REAL-TRUE-FACT = Quantifiable, independently verifiable, rigorously defined, and or logically necessary (and emotionally meaningless).
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@Reece101
Would you consider “mother” and “father” objective concepts?
No, there are no objective concepts.
Mother and father are relative (subjective, not absolute) concepts.
Your mother is not my mother.
Your father is not my father.
"Honey is sweet" would be another example of an OPINION that is shared between human cultures who have never met each other.
A widely shared OPINION is often (unintentionally) conflated with FACT.
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@Reece101
In the same way that someone in China 5000 years ago and someone in India today both have a concept of mother and father.
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@Reece101
Certainly.Can two or more people who haven’t meet each other, have the same opinion?
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@Reece101
OBJECTIVITY = NOT-SUBJECTIVEMORALITY = OPINIONOkay, is this what you’re going to sincerely stick with?Subjective = singular person, correct?If so, then wouldn’t it follow:Objective = multiple people?
Subjective + Subjective + Subjective + Subjective = INTERSUBJECTIVE. [LINK]
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@PGA2.0
KNOWLEDGE =/= JUSTIFIED TRUE BELIEF
For example, I know that people who drive old cars are terrible drivers.
This statement is (NEITHER) justified (NOR) verifiably true.
WHAT DO YOU CALL UNJUSTIFIED/UNJUSTIFIABLE/UNVERIFIABLE/NOT-NECESSARILY-TRUE INFORMATION?
If you don't call it knowledge, please tell me what you call it.
Do you call it OPINION?
Would you prefer I said, "Private Information" instead of "Private Knowledge"?
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@TheRealNihilist
A biologist stated Rhesus monkeys have blood types in common with humans. Are Rhesus monkeys human?
We seem to have lost the plot.
ARE YOU ASKING IF A ZYGOTE/BLASTOCYST/EMBRYO/FETUS IS HUMAN?
I'm pretty sure we all agree that it is alive and comprised of 100% human cells (and is therefore human).
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@Reece101
When it comes to morality, “opinion” is fact.
This is incoherent.
Private knowledge (GNOSIS) can only be (EITHER) sincere (OR) insincere.
Private knowledge cannot be and is not REAL-TRUE-FACT.
Just as my favourite colour is red.
This is the very definition of PRIVATE-KNOWLEDGE (GNOSIS).
PRIVATE-KNOWLEDGE is unfalsifiable and can never be REAL-TRUE-FACT.
PRIVATE-KNOWLEDGE has NO-TRUTH-VALUE.
PRIVATE-KNOWLEDGE is neither TRUE nor FALSE.
PRIVATE-KNOWLEDGE is indistinguishable-from-OPINION.
SINCERITY =/= REAL-TRUE-FACTS.
Is it quantifiable? Yes, to an extent. Brain imaging and what have you.
Please explain how a brain scan can determine what your favorite color is.
Please also explain how, even if you are determined to be 100% sincere by some quantifiable scientific process, how that makes your OPINION about the color red magically turn into a REAL-TRUE-FACT.
OPINION =/= FACT.
Google’s definition of morality: principles concerning the d͟i͟s͟t͟i͟n͟c͟t͟i͟o͟n͟ between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.
Please make your proposed "moral principles" (AXIOMS) explicit.
I think we need to focus on defining objectivity and morality before moving on.
Phenomenal idea. [LINK]
OBJECTIVITY = NOT-SUBJECTIVE
MORALITY = OPINION
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@TheRealNihilist
What does this mean?Answer?
In order to determine which individual organism the cells are members of, DNA testing would be required.
To the best of my knowledge.Are you telling what makes a human is their blood cells?
If a sample contains an overwhelming majority of human blood cells, then that sample is, in all reasonable likelihood, from a human.
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@TheRealNihilist
From this I gather human blood tested by using anti-human serum which is gained by injecting the blood into rabbits and waiting a period of time for the antibodies to kick in. When that is done the blood is drawn then tested on human serum proteins to see if it clumping. If that happens it is human blood. Correct?
To the best of my knowledge.
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@Reece101
I agree. I copied the definition from google. Do you have a definition we would both accept?
I believe when people use the word "objectivity" what they are actually, more precisely referring to is, Quantifiability.
It is important to avoid conflating FACT and OPINION.
REAL-TRUE-FACT = Quantifiable, independently verifiable, rigorously defined, and or logically necessary (and emotionally meaningless).
OPINION = Qualitative, experiential, personal, private, unfalsifiable, GNOSIS (and emotionally meaningful).
Are you suggesting that human survival instinct is "objective" (in your opinion)?Yes. But in terms of morality I’d say something along the lines of maternal/paternal care.
Animals often eat their young if resources are scarce or if the young are the spawn of a competitor.
Certainly. Nearly anything can be considered moral or immoral by one person or another.The goal here is to identify a logically COHERENT moral framework.First off, read the question again.I’ll re-word it for you. Do you think an action can have both moral and immoral aspects?
(IFF) you subscribe to a moral framework where part of an action is considered moral and another part of the same action is considered immoral (THEN) you subscribe to an incoherent moral framework.
Exodus 32:27And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.Which contrasts to your assertion,But I’m talking about the real world.
Well another example would be in the American Civil War. Brothers killed brothers and fathers killed sons, and they were considered HEROIC.
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@Imabench
So, business as usual?(Basically we're going to mess around and act like we're better than everyone else, for fun)
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@TheRealNihilist
In order to test blood to see if it is of human origin, a sample of the blood is collected, and is mixed with anti-human serum. If the blood coagulates, the test is considered positive for human blood.
Anti-human serum is produced by injecting rabbits or other lab animals with serum (also known as plasma, the liquid fraction of the blood) of human blood type O negative. The animals immune systems will react to the foreign non-rabbit proteins present in the human plasma, and they will develop antibodies to these proteins. After the antibodies have formed, blood is drawn from the animal, and the antibodies are extracted from the blood. When these antibodies come in contact with human serum proteins, a clumping or clotting reaction occurs, which can be seen with the naked eye.
If the blood is determined to be human additional tests will be performed to determine blood type, Rh group, and other information. [LINK]
If the blood is determined to be human additional tests will be performed to determine blood type, Rh group, and other information. [LINK]
So, a DNA test is not mandatory.
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@Reece101
Do you think one aspect of an action can be considered moral while another is immoral?
Certainly. Nearly anything can be considered moral or immoral by one person or another.
The goal here is to identify a logically COHERENT moral framework.
That being said, can you give me the moral/synopsis of the story?
Exodus 32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
Which contrasts to your assertion,
But there are some like the killing of family, friends, community that are “universally” immoral.
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@Reece101
Objective: (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
All human actions follow human motives, also known as feelings or emotions. All human motives (feelings/emotions) are personal.
If a human considers a fact, they ostensibly have a MOTIVE for considering that fact.
An action without motive is indistinguishable from RANDOM.
If a human represents a fact, they ostensibly have a MOTIVE for representing that fact.
An action without motive is indistinguishable from RANDOM.
A judgement influenced by genetics.
Please explain.
Are you suggesting that human survival instinct is "objective" (in your opinion)?
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@TheRealNihilist
"So, basically, there is not a lot of difference among the blood of different species of mammals. In order to identify the origin of a sample of blood, one would need to do DNA testing."Is your claim DNA?
I honestly don't know what claim you are referring to.
How do you, you, yourself, you, personally, how do you identify a human?
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@Athias
Because AT THE MOMENT OF BIRTH IT BECOMES A CITIZEN WITH FULL HUMAN RIGHTS AND PROTECTION OF THE LAW.And this is merely arbitrary with no justification other than the law's being the law.
This is not the slightest bit arbitrary.
At birth the umbilical cord is cut and the mass of cells ceases to be a parasite, which is comprised of nearly 100% material from the host and instead at that moment, becomes a semi-autonomous citizen of the state.
It moves from being inside the mother's sovereign territory and into the sovereign territory of the state.
This is a type of migration.
Applicable laws are based on jurisdiction.
If you're standing in Croatia, then Croatia's laws apply to you.
If you're standing in India, then India's laws apply to you.
If you're inside another person, then you are at their mercy.
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@TheRealNihilist
Are you asking for a study that proves that some cells are human and some aren't and that a laboratory can tell the difference?I am asking for you to give me a study that scientists (or other standard) have stated a thing is human cells.
Try this, [LINK]
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@Athias
Once the baby is born, the mother can choose at any time to put it up for adoption.I don't understand your confusion.Yes by putting it up for adoption she ensure its custody to someone else, on whom the fetus depends for time, labor, and resources.
Because AT THE MOMENT OF BIRTH IT BECOMES A CITIZEN WITH FULL HUMAN RIGHTS AND PROTECTION OF THE LAW.
What if she just left it outside somewhere, or in her home without paying attention to its needs? That would be illegal because the mother is obligated to either provide sustenance or ensure that another custodian provides sustenance.
Because AT THE MOMENT OF BIRTH IT BECOMES A CITIZEN WITH FULL HUMAN RIGHTS AND PROTECTION OF THE LAW.
No such obligations are present or recognized between a mother and her zygote/embryo/fetus/unborn child. And that's inconsistent.
Because AT THE MOMENT OF BIRTH IT BECOMES A CITIZEN WITH FULL HUMAN RIGHTS AND PROTECTION OF THE LAW.
A zygote/embryo/fetus =/= CITIZEN.
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@Athias
An appeal to motivation (amateur psychology) is a type of ad hominem attack.It's not an appeal to motive because I'm not qualifying your arguments using your motives.
Why are you even speculating about my motives then? If they are not relevant to the discussion, they are, quite by definition, moot.
I'm not stating, for example, that you're wrong because you're copping out;
Not explicitly perhaps, but it certainly seems to be implicit.
I'd be saying that you're inconsistent; and you're copping out.
And I am indebted to you for pointing out perceived inconsistencies.
hOWever, "copping out" still speaks to motive and has a negative connotation, so it would seem to qualify as an ad hominem attack.
Mention of your intentions are merely supplemental; not informative.
So you're making more of an ad hominem pointless speculation (not an "attack"). That makes even less sense.
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@Athias
This is an example of the dime-store-psychoanalysis fallacy.No such fallacy is logically recognizable.
An appeal to motivation (amateur psychology) is a type of ad hominem attack.
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@Athias
Its physical dependence is analogous to the dependence an infant has on its mother's resources, time, and labor. She has a right to her body, but she doesn't have a right to the aforestated? How do you rationalize that?
Once the baby is born, the mother can choose at any time to put it up for adoption.
I don't understand your confusion.
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@TheRealNihilist
Do you have a study or am I going to go to a scientist to prove your claims to be correct or wrong?
Are you asking for a study that proves that some cells are human and some aren't and that a laboratory can tell the difference?
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@TheRealNihilist
Citing "papers" IS AN ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY.Citing papers is supporting your claims.
It's still an appeal to authority.
Saying essentially go ask scientists and implying you would be right is an argument from authority.
"Make me right"? You don't understand how this works. I'm not trying to convince myself. [LINK]
You tell me what you need to convince you and I will do my best to oblige.
I haven't shifted-the-burden-of-proof-to-you because, I haven't asked you to PROVE anything.You serious? I asked a question. You gave answer an by saying go ask someone else and implying they would agree with me. You shifted the burden to proof to me to support or not support your claims depending on the results.
You're leaping to conclusions. Nearly all hospitals and clinics have access to a laboratory. Nearly all first-world citizens (people who own computers) have access to a hospital or a clinic. If you want to know if some cells are human, they can tell you.
If you don't trust the laboratory, then you'll have to rely on your own intuition.
The wrinkle here is that most mammal cells are over 90% identical to most human cells. So it stands to reason that if you believe it's 100% evil to kill a human, then it would follow logically that it is 97% evil to kill a mouse.
Please don't get hysterical.I am serious. Do you have a study or am I going to go to a scientist to prove your claims to be correct or wrong?
I honestly don't understand what you think is controversial here.
Scientists can determine if cells are human or not.
Without a laboratory, and the prerequisite training, you, yourself, by yourself, will have to make your best guess.
Consulting a laboratory is a practical approach.Yes but do you think that is a reasonable request to me? I asked you a question and you said go to a lab and find out.
That is honestly the only way I know of to be 100% certain.
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@Athias
The zygote/embryo/fetus is-itself less than 1% "father" and over 99.999% "mother".Also, 100% of the physical risk of permanent physiological change and or disfigurement is borne by the mother.If we broaden that which we consider parasitic, or even analogize, infants are no different.
Except for the fact that once an infant is born and granted a birth certificate, they are NOT 100% physically dependent on their host organism.
That simple fact changes them from a parasite into an semi-autonomous being, no longer part-of-the-mother's-body.
They consume resources at the expense of their custodians. And those proportions need work. (I know you're attempting a conceptual rhetoric intended to reflect the proportions of labor and resources, but my point was about the genes.)
Why do you believe genes are more important than nutrition?
And you don't have to convince me. I agree with most of what you said.
Very good.
But trivializing the life of a zygote/embryo/fetus is a cop-out.
This is an example of the dime-store-psychoanalysis fallacy.
It's also cognitive dissonance.
Please explain.
It's means to justify abortion,
This is an example of the dime-store-psychoanalysis fallacy.
If you're curious about my intentions, feel free to ask.
...while also obligating parents/custodians to an infant's care when reflecting the logic back.
Parents have historically had the option to release custody of their children.
I reconcile the justification for an abortion by removing all obligation a parent has to its child. Anything less is contradiction.
Parents have historically had the option to release custody of their children.
Some societies will even remove children by force if they determine the parent and or guardian is unfit.
Appeals to atrocity trigger a shut-down of the pre-frontal-cortex, impeding reasonable thought.Does it, now?
For example, [LINK]
If you are a perfectly isolated society, then you can do whatever you can convince the group is best WITHOUT FEAR OF LEGAL HAZARD.True. But are rights merely legal privileges, or is there particular meaning in referring to it as a "human right"?
You're begging the question.
Yes. For example, [LINK]What moral economy did that reflect?
Christian.
We want land and these savages have the land we want, so we will kill them until they do what we say, and then we'll kill them some more just to show them whose the boss.
Just like those Israelites in the good book who killed all the Philistines.
Most non-psychopaths now recognize this as an atrocity.
However, at the time, it was considered HEROIC.
Interesting, your entire society is comprised of 11 males and only one female?I'm pretty sure you're going to die.Well, 10 of us will--maybe 9. But the point still stands.
You don't have a functioning society if you don't have enough bio-diversity to sustain human life.
What you have in your example is a gang.
Gangster ethics are another animal altogether.
You mean like the woman in your example?Yes.
She was clearly unable to protect her own rights.
Most people who need protection cannot protect themselves.
Any child for example.
Everyone you fail to convince is a likely criminal.That's not true. They could be indifferent, or impartial.
If you can't convince your tribe to follow you, then the unconvinced will either be left behind, will become free-riders, or will challenge you when the opportunity arises.
Can a society function with 49% criminals? Probably not.In the context of the U.S. two-party system, how would that apply?
The open-secret is that there is virtually zero-difference between the "two-parties".
More than 49% still have tacit faith in the legal system.
At a minimum they believe that if they step-out-of-bounds they will be severely punished.
That at least motivates them to keep their heads down for the most part.
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Ideally we can persuade each other with logic.
When logic fails, we use enticements (which creates [de facto] mercenaries).
When enticement fails, we use fear-mongering (which creates [de facto] cowards).
When fear-mongering fails, we use credible threats of violence (which creates [de facto] slaves).
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@Reece101
Nope.But there are some like the killing of family, friends, community that are “universally” immoral.
It is perfectly acceptable, and indeed considered a moral imperative to kill your own family members under certain circumstances and in certain cultures.
For example, [LINK]
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@Reece101
A foundation of a common idea can be found in beneficial evolutionary adaptations that we all share.
YES.
HOWeVER,
COMMON-IDEA =/= OBJECTIVITY
Please share your definition of "objectivity".
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@Reece101
The fact that Brahman is a concept at all has everything to do with human experience.
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@Athias
History teaches us that treating people atrociously usually ends badly.Wouldn't that suggest that individuals enforce their own rights?
You mean like the woman in your example?
HOWEVER, If you are within the boundaries of a larger society, then you may have to explain your actions to the authorities.How much of that large society's consensus is enough, then?
It depends on your tolerance for criminals.
Everyone you fail to convince is a likely criminal.
Can a society function with 49% criminals? Probably not.
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@Athias
CONSENSUS =/= 51%consensus does not not equal 51%. And if my calculations are correct, my scenario conveyed a 91% majority.
Interesting, your entire society is comprised of 11 males and only one female?
I'm pretty sure you're going to die.
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