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3RU7AL

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definition of "fascism"
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@WyIted
bernie is closer to the center than you might think

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BIDEN 2024!!!!
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@Democant
the clock keeps ticking
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definition of "fascism"
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@WyIted
As far as mainstream candidates are co corned that makes Ron Paul extremely right wing and Bernie sanders extreme left wing . 

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The Weimar Republic was a federal republic and a representative democracy, not a socialist state.
So, using your definition,  WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE, there was not a single library in Weimar.

So, using your definition, there was not a single mailman  in Weimar.

So, using your definition, there was not a single public school  in Weimar.

I hope that is understandable to you.

It probably won't be, and this HS will go on.

I thought you were finished, but you keep pitching, I'll keep hitting home runs.

this is fantastic, i love how you are now adopting my definitions

now let's follow your logic here

you're now suggesting that any government service that operates for the benefit of all citizens automatically qualifies that government as a "socialist state"

and if you stick with this logic, then yes, every fascist state that was "precursored" by any form of government that fits the above definition, would seem to support your case

so, in other words

and to recap

if you agree to your twisted version of "my definition" of "socialist state" -


THEN YOUR CLAIM THAT "SOCIALISM IS A NECESSARY PRECURSOR TO FASCISM" = TRUE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


i mean, i thought we were in agreement earlier when you said, "Not all socialist countries morph into fascism, but some do."

but now we're REALLLY REALLLY REALLLY in agreement

right ?


do you agree ?



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definition of "fascism"
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In review it is clear that I stated you FALSE OPINION, and then refuted it.
you can certainly DISAGREE with an opinion

but you cannot "refute" an opinion
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definition of "fascism"
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You seem to think that you are "the measure of all things".
you've got this reversed

YOU are "the measure of all things"

YOU are

i'm trying to understand your claim

IN YOUR OWN TERMS

ON YOUR OWN TERMS
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definition of "fascism"
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Demonstrate any real world example where a fascist states was not preceded by a socialist state.

The Weimar Republic was a federal republic and a representative democracy, not a socialist state.

Government




Italy was a constitutional monarchy before Mussolini came to power, not a socialist state.

In 1922, Benito Mussolini became prime minister of Italy, ushering in an era of National Fascist Party government known as "Fascist Italy". Totalitarian rule was enforced, crushing all political opposition while promoting economic modernization, traditional values, and territorial expansion.

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definition of "fascism"
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Stating what you said does not imply agreement.
using my definition in an argument is the definition of agreement

the only thing we need to figure out

is your definition of "socialist state" and your definition of "fascist state" and exactly how the one is a "necessary precursor" to the other

the only thing we need to figure out

is your definition of "socialist state" and your definition of "fascist state" and exactly how the one is a "necessary precursor" to the other
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definition of "fascism"
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Before I respond, I need to know where you studied. Then I can tailor my answer to your level.

ah, the classic ad hominem attack

nobody gives a fuck where i studied

and even if i told you i had some amazing credentials

there is absolutely no way of proving any of this to you without doxxing myself


this is called an epistemological limit


i don't give a shit who you are or what amazing credentials you think you have or claim to have



i only care about the logic of your arguments
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definition of "fascism"
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Having just one public library does not make a nation a socialist state.
at what point does a state become "a socialist state" in your personal opinion ?

simply stating what does NOT qualify as "a socialist state"

doesn't get us any closer to an agreement

let me help you out


(IFF) A SOCIALIST STATE = WHAT PREFIX SAYS IT IS (AND) IF A FASCIST STATE = WHAT PREFIX SAYS IT IS (THEN) SOCIALIST STATE = NECESSARY PRECURSOR TO FASCIST STATE


now, all i'm trying to do

is figure out how you fit these pieces together with your personally preferred definitions

i'm not saying "this claim is false"

i'm simply trying to figure out exactly what this means to you
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I said .."No. They are SUPPORTED opinions. You have your opinions, yet you fail to support them."
supported by what ?
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You said before that public schools are socialism.
so NOW you agree to my definition of socialism ?
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History supports me in every real world case.  The events that take place in your imagination are of no consequence.
which specific examples do you imagine support the claim that "socialism is a necessary precursor to fascism" ?
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As I said many times, the topic is "socialist STATES" not socialism as a micro ideal.
explain exactly how the two are incompatible in your mind
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No. They are SUPPORTED opinions. You have your opinions, yet you fail to support them.
please be slightly more specific
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On #168

Your comment is not worthy of reply.

who do you think is the KING of socialism

who is the high priest of socialism

who gets to declare the one and only true definition of socialism ?
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As I said many times, the topic is "socialist STATES" not socialism as a micro ideal.
please explain how your personally preferred definitions of socialist states and socialism are incompatible
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definition of "fascism"
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Perhaps if you understood the word "precursor" you would see. 
perhaps if you understood the word "require" you would see
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 You even said that socialism is a system of ownership. You did not say it was an article in a constitution. 

ok, so NOW you decide to agree to my definition of socialism ?
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 That is why I use citations, and ask YOU to do the same.
your citations are SECOND HAND OPINIONS

you don't even have your own OPINIONS

you have to borrow them from SOMEONE ELSE
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I answer that most socialists do not know what socialism is
who do you think is the KING of socialism

who is the high priest of socialism

who gets to declare the one and only true definition of socialism ?
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Perhaps you would like to re frame YOUR position, or better yet, perhaps you would like to clearly state YOUR position?
oh, ok, sure

you probably don't remember the part

where i said quite clearly

that socialism is not a form of government

socialism is a system of ownership

in the same way

capitalism is not a form of government

capitalism is a system of ownership
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definition of "fascism"
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My position stands. It is that socialism is a necessary precursor  to fascism.
wrong again

fascism does not require socialism
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It does not.  Here is what my cite says.... they "have constitutions that state that they are based on socialism, even if they do not rigidly follow the economic or political systems associated with socialism,"    ( https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/socialist-countries)
so having an explicit commitment to socialism in your constitution does NOT make you a socialist state ?

what do you personally believe qualifies as a socialist state ?
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definition of "fascism"
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Not all socialist countries morph into fascism, but some do.

we agree - end of debate
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It was already shown that only SOME items were privatize, usually for convenience.
privatizing public services is THE OPPOSITE of socialism
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@WyIted
I am talking about reading this book or actually listening to the audiobook to get your perspective. I couldn't find it free though. 

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@WyIted
I will see if I can find an audio book of that
perhaps you might elaborate ?
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definition of "fascism"
the rule of elites

seems to be in direct conflict

with "cultural liberalism"

We currently have rule by the elite. What is wrong with a populist being the fist of the people so the elite are supplanted?
do you really trust a single person to "drain the swamp" ?


i'm using the definition of "liberalism" presented in post#5

Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics.

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definition of "fascism"
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and simply because someone is credentialed and published does not magically validate their illogical assertions
List the "illogical assertions" to which you allude. Also it is not magic that validates a published work.
SOCIALISM IS NOT TOTALITARIANISM

IF I WAS ACTUALLY HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH "RICH-MAN" I'D ASK THEM TO MAKE THEIR DEFINITIONS EXPLICIT

SURE

(IFF) SOCIALISM AND TOTALITARIANISM AND FASCISM ALL HAVE THE SAME DEFINITION (THEN) SOCIALISM = FASCISM

OF COURSE

AS A CONDITIONAL STATEMENT, THIS MUST BE TRUE

BUT THEY DO NOT HAVE THE SAME DEFINITIONS


You then proceed with an "argumentum ad populum" giving credence to an individual's  definition over a widely accepted definition.

THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO SELF-IDENTIFICATION IS NOT AN "ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM"

IT'S ACTUALLY THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF "ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM"


And you think you understand epistemology?

THE NUMBER ONE LESSON OF EPISTEMOLOGY IS THAT KNOWLEDGE HAS HARD LIMITS

HUME'S GUILLOTINE

NEVER CONFLATE FACT WITH OPINION
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Kindly show me where you found the statement that 

greenland and iceland and mexico and brazil all qualify as "100% state owned" ?

FIRST OF ALL, YOU CHANGED A QUESTION INTO A STATEMENT, HERE'S THE FULL POST


this is your own source

do you believe that greenland and iceland and mexico and brazil all qualify as "100% state owned" ?

YOUR LINK LISTS GREENLAND AND ICELAND AND MEXICO AND BRAZIL AS "SOCIALIST"

AND YOUR PREMISE, BASED ON YOUR QUOTES FROM "RICH-MAN" CLAIM THAT SOCIALISM DEMANDS 100% STATE OWNERSHIP AND THEREFORE LEADS INEVITABLY TO AND OR IS FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM TOTALITARIANISM AND FASCISM

SO THE NATURAL QUESTION IS

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GREENLAND AND ICELAND AND MEXICO AND BRAZIL ARE 100% STATE OWNED AND THEREFORE TOTALITARIAN FASCIST GOVERNMENTS ?

OR, DO YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE NOT SOCIALIST STATES ?

OR, WOULD YOU PERHAPS LIKE TO REFRAME YOUR POSITION ?
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definition of "fascism"
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Support your assertion

YOUR DEFINITION INCLUDES

"that basic definition encompasses a wide range of real-world variations on socialism"
"In practice, socialist countries can run the gamut from impressively progressive to staunchly conservative"


THESE TWO LINES MAKE IT CLEAR THAT YOUR DEFINITION MAKES ROOM FOR A WIDE RANGE OF REAL-WORLD VARIATIONS ON SOCIALISM (CONTRASTED WITH TOTALITARIANISM)

THIS IS NOT A BINARY OPERATION, IT'S A SLIDING SCALE, BECAUSE SOCIALIST COUNTRIES CAN RANGE FROM IMPRESSIVELY PROGRESSIVE TO STAUNCHLY CONSERVATIVE

AND I'M NOT SURE IF YOU UNDERSTAND THAT "IMPRESSIVELY PROGRESSIVE" IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH FASCISM
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@WyIted
privatization and promoting corporate power is certainly a hallmark of fascism (merging state and corporate power)
You mean to tell me fascist that grow the government so large they can essentially spy on everyone are actually capitalists who support a night's watchman state? 

The Great Depression spurred State ownership in Western capitalist countries. Germany was noexception; the last governments of the Weimar Republic took over firms in diverse sectors. Later,the Nazi regime transferred public ownership and public services to the private sector. [[LINK]]


In his book How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them (2018), Jason Stanley defined fascism as "a cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of humiliation brought on by supposed communists, Marxists and minorities and immigrants who are supposedly posing a threat to the character and the history of a nation" and that "The leader proposes that only he can solve it and all of his political opponents are enemies or traitors." [[LINK]]
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definition of "fascism"
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You engaged in an act of repetition of a phrase, bit offed NO COUNTER DEFINITION.
i emphasized the portion of YOUR OWN DEFINITION

that clearly

CONTRADICTS YOUR PREMISE
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definition of "fascism"
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this is your own source

do you believe that greenland and iceland and mexico and brazil all qualify as "100% state owned" ?
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The definition of "Epistemology" is ...."the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope. Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion" (  per Oxford)
and simply because someone is credentialed and published does not magically validate their illogical assertions

if you want to know what christians believe, ask someone who self-identifies as a christian and although they obviously don't speak for all christians, you will probably get a more accurate understanding of the christian worldview than you would from a non-christian

if you want to know what muslims believe, ask someone who self-identifies as a muslim and although they obviously don't speak for all muslims, you will probably get a more accurate understanding of the muslim worldview than you would from a non-muslim

if you want to know what conservatives believe, ask someone who self-identifies as a conservative and although they obviously don't speak for all conservatives, you will probably get a more accurate understanding of the conservative worldview than you would from a non-conservative

if you want to know what liberals believe, ask someone who self-identifies as a liberal and although they obviously don't speak for all liberals, you will probably get a more accurate understanding of the liberal worldview than you would from a non-liberal

if you want to know what atheists believe, ask someone who self-identifies as an atheist and although they obviously don't speak for all atheists, you will probably get a more accurate understanding of the atheist worldview than you would from a non-atheist

i know how much you love and worship the "rich-man" so this might be difficult for you to comprehend

but simply stating that socialism requires 100% state control of everything is patently false

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that basic definition encompasses a wide range of real-world variations on socialism
In practice, socialist countries can run the gamut from impressively progressive to staunchly conservative

that basic definition encompasses a wide range of real-world variations on socialism
In practice, socialist countries can run the gamut from impressively progressive to staunchly conservative

that basic definition encompasses a wide range of real-world variations on socialism
In practice, socialist countries can run the gamut from impressively progressive to staunchly conservative

that basic definition encompasses a wide range of real-world variations on socialism
In practice, socialist countries can run the gamut from impressively progressive to staunchly conservative

that basic definition encompasses a wide range of real-world variations on socialism
In practice, socialist countries can run the gamut from impressively progressive to staunchly conservative

that basic definition encompasses a wide range of real-world variations on socialism
In practice, socialist countries can run the gamut from impressively progressive to staunchly conservative

that basic definition encompasses a wide range of real-world variations on socialism
In practice, socialist countries can run the gamut from impressively progressive to staunchly conservative
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Proving a negative.
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@Mall
Religion would not exist or faith is not needed for something that has been proven.
AND NOBODY CAN EVER PROVE WHAT HAPPENS OR DOESN'T HAPPEN (TO YOUR MIND-SOUL) "AFTER YOU DIE"
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Give me the comment number where I "agreed" to a definition/

On a macro level, a good government serves 100% of the citizens in terms mentioned above. It cannot serve 51% or even 90%. Only 100%. Otherwise it is not operating at a macro level.

Government...


protects 100% of the citizenry from invasion
manages resources that affect 100% of the citizenry
maintains infrastructure that affects 100% of the citizenry
supports standards that affect 100% of the citizenry
enhances mobility of  100% of the citizenry while inhibiting no one.

I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS DEFINITION OF GOVERNMENT
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NO. We are defining "socialist states"

examples of democratic socialist governments

1.Finland
Government Expenditure: 8
Social Progress Index: 3
Average Ranking: 5.5
Finland stands out among OECD countries for its extensive social safety net, allocating 24% of GDP to social protection which is twice the OECD average. While youth inclusion in politics is notable, Finland falls short in government employment diversity, with only 17% aged 18-34. Nonetheless, Finnish citizens exhibit high confidence in their national government (81%) and top the OECD charts in satisfaction with the education system (87%) and trust in the judiciary (81%). It is the most democratic social country in Europe. 



2. Iceland
Government Expenditure: 14
Social Progress Index: 4
Average Ranking: 9
In 2019, Iceland allocated 43% of its GDP to public expenditure, with 24% of its workforce employed in the general government, the fourth highest among OECD countries. Moreover, it directed 32.7% of its public spending towards employee compensation, the highest in the OECD. Despite this, Iceland ranks poorly in digital governance, occupying the penultimate position in the OECD Digital Government Index, particularly lagging in data accessibility. Conversely, it has the lowest poverty rate in the OECD at 4.9%.



3. Sweden 
Government Expenditure: 15
Social Progress Index: 5
Average Ranking: 10
Sweden’s public sector is highly stable, with government spending at 49.2% of GDP in 2019, primarily allocated to social protection. 28.6% of the workforce is employed in the general government sector. Sweden excels in gender equality as women occupy 55% of senior government roles and 47% of parliamentary seats. However, it lags in digital government, ranking last in the OECD Digital Government Index, particularly in meeting people’s needs.



4. Austria
Government Expenditure: 9
Social Progress Index: 11
Average Ranking: 10
Austria exhibits strong performance in key areas of public governance, with high levels of satisfaction with public services, notably in healthcare (81%) and the judiciary (76%). Although trust in public institutions is slightly below average, Austria’s commitment to stakeholder engagement in decision-making (IGI score of 0.51) and ethical AI usage demonstrates dedication to democratic resilience.


5. Belgium
Government Expenditure: 7
Social Progress Index: 13
Average Ranking: 10
In 2021, the country’s public procurement spending was notably high, accounting for 15.2% of its GDP, surpassing the OECD average of 12.9%. Moreover, satisfaction with public services surpasses OECD averages: health care satisfaction stands at 90%, education at 75%, and administrative services at 71%. However, trust in public institutions falls below OECD standards: only 32% trust the national government, 49% trust local government, and 41% trust the civil service, while trust in parliament is at 33%. 
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No. Epistemologically you are entirely WRONG.  
i'm pretty certain you just demonstrated that you have no idea what "Epistemologically" means
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You don't own a national park.
national parks are managed by the government for the BENEFIT OF CITIZENS
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generally the postal system owns the mail service.It is not owned by the public.

the public has meaningful input (buy in) over who runs the postal service and what policies they support

the postal service is managed by the government for the BENEFIT OF CITIZENS
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Mostly public schools are owned by the school system. They are not owned by the public.
the public has meaningful input (buy in) over who runs the school board and what policies they support

public schools are managed by the government for the BENEFIT OF CITIZENS
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@Best.Korea
In order to debate, you very much have to agree to same definitions.
bingo
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So Richman's published opinions trump your shallow unpublished thoughts.
i'm ever so glad you've found your personal KING OF WORDS

i don't happen to be a disciple of the great and powerful "rich-man"

if you want me to take any of their OPINIONS seriously

you are going to have to provide some logic



the key disagreement again, with all the quotes you've regurgitated

is a fundamental disagreement about the DEFINITION OF SOCIALISM

and i'm pretty certain "rich-man" doesn't own words
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All you need do is to find an example of a socialist nation state that allowed the veneer of private ownership.
you mean like every single government on earth ?
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This was too broad to be an acceptable definition.
then propose a modification if you can't even remember agreeing to it
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Opinions are one thing but opinions that are researched and published are at a higher level. 

wrong again

nobody is "king of words"

we agree on some key points

but our main disagreement

seems to be

the definition of socialism
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