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@prefix
You examples above are more in line with "infrastructure" which can occur in most forms of nation states.
private schools are capitalist
public schools are socialist
private mail service is capitalist
public mail service is socialist
socialism is a form of ownership
not a form of government
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You question Richman's authority in #98.
i don't give a flying fuck about THE OPINION of some random guy who wrote a book
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You must give an example where socialism did not seek domination of nominally private owners.
i hope you realize you've just asked me to PROVE A NEGATIVE
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You must cite real world examples of a socialist nation that meets your standard of "good" socialism.
we already agreed that THE FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT
is
to manage PUBLIC RESOURCES for the
BENEFIT OF ALL CITIZENS
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@prefix
Now you must cite a work that supports your view. Otherwise it is just your opinion, and should be labeled as such.
now i see how your mind works
you don't care about logic
you only care about published opinions
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@prefix
Socialism requires centralized government. All capital rests with the state.....all power rests with the state....human nature then kicks in. There is the logic.Examples include Germany, Italy and Argentina.
this is not the essential definition of socialism
public schools are a form of state socialism
public libraries are a form of state socialism
public roads are a form of state socialism
public utilities are a form of state socialism
public mail service is a form of state socialism
there is absolutely zero "requirement" for 100% state ownership
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@prefix
You fail to understand the definition of "totalitarianism". Per Oxford.."Totalitarianism is a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state."
yeah, we already agree on this
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@prefix
Perhaps we should debate.
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Where socialism abolished money and prices
this ALSO never happened
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Where socialism abolished all market relations outright
this never happened
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@prefix
fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners
this is also EVEN MORE OBVIOUSLY not socialism
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@prefix
Where socialism sought totalitarian control
this is not socialism
and your appeal to authority
is meaningless
if you can't identify logic
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@prefix
Explain exactly what you mean by "proper" socialism.
shared ownership where each individual has some meaningful input
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@Mall
Religion exists because there hasn't been established scientific evidence one way or the other.
religion exists because it has zero overlap with "science"
and it is an obvious category error to even ask for "scientific evidence" for any religious claim
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@Owen_T
what are your most controversial opinions ?
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@prefix
fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer
please explain exactly what you think this is supposed to mean
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@prefix
Even Marx knew that socialism made for bad government ( it needed to "wither away")
because proper socialism makes most of the functions of a state completely redundant
specifically because most of the functions of a state involve managing public capital
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@prefix
Since you have descended into pejoratives, I win this discussion by default
good for you
i guess you are the number one authority on the definition of "socialism"
just ignore everyone on planet earth
who calls themselves a socialist
especially bernie sanders
that guy doesn't know anything
because he hasn't spoken to you yet
and adopted your ultra-perfect number one definition of SOCIALISM = TOTALITARIANISM always every time no exceptions
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@Double_R
Limit the retabulation to two rounds. The first round, if no one gets to 50% then remove everyone except the top two and retabulate with only those two choices. This is exactly how a run of election works except you wouldn't need to hold two separate elections. What do you think about that option?
what is the advantage to this method ?
what if the guy who placed third can edge out the second place guy in the second round ?
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@Double_R
It doesn't Rob your first choice of it's power. Your second choice would only count if your first choice is eliminated, and it would only be eliminated if it was the least popular of the remaining choices.Under the current system, if it's Trump, Biden, RFK and you vote RFK who lands with 5%, then your vote is effectively wasted. With RCV in that scenario you can still have a say as to who in Biden v Trump wins, but only if you choose one as a second pick.
well stated
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@WyIted
so you can make statements that easily appeal to most people like "Both candidates are buffoons"
tell me with a straight face that these are the two smartest and best qualified individuals on earth
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@WyIted
You have a life long public servant in Joe Biden
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@WyIted
personally I prefer more options.
this puts you and me on the same side of this
you seem to be suggesting "don't change anything, the current system is GREAT or at least good-enough, let's not risk screwing it up, i mean look at all these examples where people screwed things up"
and i'm suggesting "RCV is vastly superior because it offers MORE CHOICES and the key problem with the current system is that the MONOPARTY is entrenched with the top 10% richest people (donor class) and they've done everything in their power to RAI$E THE BARRIER TO ENTRY and that's why we're facing an election between TWO OF THE MOST IDIOTIC BUFFOONS in history"
and sure, there are some "problems" with some incompetent implementations of RCV
but these are SOLVABLE
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@WyIted
you're completely skipping the question
would you personally prefer
to have 8 choices of food
or only 2 choices of food ?
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@prefix
what you're describing is merely totalitarianism
there are a great number of examples (from that same source) of VARIOUS FORMS of social ownership
the one you're obsessed with is merely one of many - and is in direct conflict with the idea of serving the interests of citizens
Social ownership can take various forms, including public, community, collective, cooperative, or employee.
open your goddamned mind another inch
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@WyIted
it's simple if you have chick and pizza each getting 33% of the vote and also the 2 highest vote counts, you just have a run off election and people can narrow the debate down to both choices and whichever one argues their position best, gets more votes now. This way you have all the most liked candidates win, while also solving the issues of a plurality win, with a run off and mitigating all the issues with RCV
that's not the question
the question is
would you prefer a PRIMARY ELECTION
with 10 people narrowing down the choice to foods to ONLY 2 OPTIONS ?
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@WyIted
now you have stopped arguing in good faith.
losing false confidence is the first step to becoming an adult
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@WyIted
for someone who seems so interested in mitigating "low voter turnout" and "wasting the time of volunteers"When I am making an argument listing pro's and cons am I better off including arguments that appeal to your ideology or to my own?As long as I am being factual, I don't have to agree with a premise I present. If you disagree that lower voter turn out is bad, simply ignore the argument. I did elaborate a bit by pointing out that some people confused by it, still can make great decisions. However I think for the most part if you disagree with the premise ignore it. I gave other premises that I think should be taken into consideration and certainly ones I weigh more heavily before determining whether I would vote in favor of RCV, if the issue comes up where I live
imagine if you will
100 people ranking this list of foods
(1) pizza
(2) fried chicken
(3) hamburger
(4) bacon and eggs
(5) waffles
(6) pancakes
(7) macaroni and cheese
(8) noodle soup
now imagine picking ten of these people to narrow the selection down to ONLY 2 OPTIONS
if you were voting on what to eat
would you rather have everyone rank all 8 options
or would you rather have 10 people narrow down the list to just 2 options first, so you don't have to think so hard ?
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@WyIted
Well that's how you title it, to make it sound unreasonable. The majority of people support RCV until informed of the errors and delays I pointed out and then the number drops to 25% support. I don't know that it is the idiots changing their mind when new information becomes available or if the idiots are the ones who see new information that shows why RCV is bad and then just double down because in an ideal world RCV is awesome and only their idealized vision of it is what should be counted when determining if it is good
argumentum ad populum almost always favors the status quo
combine that with argumentum in terrorem and you're nearly guaranteed to sway the crowd
the current "confidence" people have in single-choice-voting
is false confidence
and it's a good thing that they're losing it
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@WyIted
such as delayed results, incorrect results and 30k man hours to do recounts
you can't convince me that we are the most technologically advanced civilization on planet earth
and we can't figure out how to rank 20 candidates with instant error checking and simultaneous secure data transfer
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@WyIted
Recounts do definitely require a hand count which is why paper ballots are required and in places where they are not required, a physical paper copy of your vote on a machine is created for accountability. In the minneapolis election cited with a mere 50k votes, a recount was required by hand and it took 30k man hours.
this problem is not caused by RCV
hand recounts always take an enormous amount of time
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@WyIted
This is not happening in the real world where RCV is implemented in the united states, so it's a moot point. We need to look at how it is implemented in the real world not in somebodys imagination.
this is not "somebody's imagination"
when i last voted
there were TWO validation checks BEFORE i left the building
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@WyIted
This has been disproven and in the video I bring up several real world examples of elections with only 50k votes placed being delayed by 2 weeks.
do you understand that computers are really good at adding numbers together ?
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@WyIted
You can see how it would confuse an elderly person with bad eyesight and how a shaky hand could easily invalidate a ballot.
right, ballot design is a problem and has always been a problem
this is fixable
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@Casey_Risk
Instant Runoff Voting is not precinct-countable. It has to be counted centrally to ensure the correct winner. Most other voting systems, including plurality, do not have that flaw.
sending data
from each precinct
to a central location
takes the same amount of time
regardless
if it is 50 kilobytes
or 50 megabytes
it is just numbers after all
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@WyIted
It's a fair point, but if you just spent 50 years studying economics, political philosophy and policy, perhaps we could really use that wisdom for making better decisions. Them having a brain less adaptible to changes, wouldn't make their hard work at crafting a great philosophy and intuiting it wouldn't go away.
a fucking five year old child knows how to rank their preferences
(1) pizza
(2) fried chicken
(3) hamburger
(4) bacon and eggs
(5) waffles
(6) pancakes
(7) macaroni and cheese
(8) noodle soup
you can number them by preference with #1 being your first choice
OR YOU CAN DRAG AND DROP THEM IN THE ORDER YOU WISH WITH YOUR TOP CHOICE AT THE TOP OF THE LIST
this isn't exactly rocket science
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@WyIted
I assume primary voters are fewer than in the general election, which makes sense if you are trusting your fellow party members to make an intelligent decision and you plan to trust that decision. Perhaps you have less time to research those candidates but are fine researching the party leads . Or perhaps you are fine just voting with your party because you think the platform is aligned more with you than the alternatives.
for someone who seems so interested in mitigating "low voter turnout" and "wasting the time of volunteers"
your assessment of primary elections doesn't fix either one of these "problems"
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@WyIted
why make everyone vote twice ?To encourage the winning primary candidates to have to appeal to and take into account the needs of the losers voting block
it's a blatant scam to reward party loyalists and eliminate wildcards
perhaps you've heard of bernie sanders ?
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@WyIted
1. Delayed election results
ballots are designed to be counted automatically
automatic ballot counting takes the same amount of time regardless of the type of voting you choose
2. lower voter turn out
unmotivated, easily confused morons shouldn't be voting in the first place
3. Votes actually thrown in the trash not metaphorical such as when you vote 3rd party
invalid ballots SHOULD be thrown away
but once again, automatic ballot counters fix this problem by alerting staff immediately when an invalid ballot is entered
the last time i voted, the machine had a touch screen, and printed the results on a paper ballot, and then before i left the building
the paper ballot was scanned into a stand-alone machine
if the ballot was filled out incorrectly, it could easily be trashed and a new ballot reissued on the spot
4. more errors in determining outcomes
this makes no sense
5. increased volunteer hours to count the votes
almost nobody is counting ballots by hand
and when a hand recount is required, it ALWAYS takes a ridiculous amount of time
it took YEARS for the florida bush gore recount to be completed
6. undermined confidence in the election process, which also harms voter turn out
these people are morons if they think single-choice-voting is a good way to select leadership
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@WyIted
also in practice it confuses the elderly and their votes get thrown in the trash.
sounds like an awesome feature
isn't one of the main arguments against democracy "average people are too stupid to be trusted with important decisions" ?
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@WyIted
The primary system is fair though. It means the winning caandidate has to appeal to a larger amount of people, meaning everyone's voice gets heard.
why make everyone vote twice ?
and if you're so concerned with "low voter turnout"
have you seen the numbers for the primaries ?
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@cristo71
Ok. So if other candidates are a distant second choice or worse, voters can choose to override RCV given enough numbers by only selecting one candidate.
my example was wrong
RFK would not win in the scenario presented
in the scenario i presented
a 3% RFK would be eliminated (the least voted first round candidate always gets eliminated)
and the people who voted for RFK would have their votes moved to whomever they selected as their second choice
in order for RFK to win RCV
his vote score would have to be at least slightly higher than either trump or biden
at which point either trump or biden would be the least voted and automatically eliminated
and then the votes for the eliminated candidate would move to their second choice (presumably RFK, since i can't imagine biden voters putting down trump as their second choice)
now it's important to keep in mind that this RCV scenario DOESN'T CHANGE ANYTHING
EVERYTHING PLAYS OUT EXACTLY LIKE SINGLE-CHOICE-VOTING BECAUSE THAT WOULD TRIGGER A RUNOFF
the only difference here is that nobody needs to bother planning and staging a SECOND ELECTION
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@Casey_Risk
while IRV is non-monotonic, doesn't meet the participation criterion, and is hardly any friendlier to third parties than plurality.
the "problem" that is solved is the elimination of the ridiculously unfair primary system
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@cristo71
It looks as though selecting a 2nd choice robs your first choice of its power. Knowing this, what is to stop voters from only putting down a first choice?
there is no version of RCV that stops a voter from only selecting first choice
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@WyIted
let's say trump and biden get 49% and 48%
and RFK gets 3%
all the biden voters HATE trump so they put RFK as their 2nd choice
all the trump voters HATE biden so the put RFK as their 2nd choice
this is a perfect example of how the LEAST HATED candidate wins
now i know you're going to freak out and say "but only 3% voted for RFK as their first choice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
nobody gives a shit about that
they're not voting "for" anyone so much as they're voting AGAINST "satandevilhitler"
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@420-1776
Historical Timeline of US Government Benefits. Social Security Act of 1935. This act provided the first national system of social welfare benefits in the United States, providing for old-age, survivors, and disability insurance.
everything was soooo much better in 1934
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@WyIted
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@WyIted
explain how having to research 20 candidates is easier than researching just a few?
99% of voters do zero research
they just vote for the guy they'd like to have a beer with
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