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3RU7AL

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@rbelivb
Also, I disagree with your framing of this as a scientific question. Imagine I said "you are lying that your name is Bones, it's because you're delusional and ashamed of your real name." Obviously, I would be ignoring the distinction between your actual name and your username. It would not make sense to make the case by saying, that your name is scientificallylegally, your real name. Your username is your chosen username, and there is nothing scientific about it other than verifying what your chosen username is. Does that make your username completely meaningless, because it has no basis in scientific or legal reality? No, because it provides you with the freedom of expression to identify yourself that way.
well stated
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@Bones
So you would also agree then, on that note, that a 40 year old who's personal preference is that they are eight should be able to go to childcare then?  
height, weight, age, skin-tone, hair and eye color are quantifiable descriptions of a citizen that do not require a microscope and or a strip-search to determine
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Atheism is simply "a lack of belief"
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@Polytheist-Witch
do you believe a gnostic deist qualifies as an "atheist" ?
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@Lemming
Probably be best if they use a third bathroom,
ok, what if there is no "third bathroom" ?
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@Lemming
If refusing to use a person's pronoun is considered hate speech,
I AM ALSO 100% AGAINST "HATE SPEECH" LAWS
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@Athias
do you have some plan to mitigate the influence of warlords and other cults-of-personality ?
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Atheism is simply "a lack of belief"
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@oromagi
(IFF) we can agree that language only exists to serve as a means of clear communication between humans with as little error and miscommunication as possible 
  • This statement is manifestly false.
it's part of a conditional statement

can we agree that the primary function of a dictionary is to reduce miscommunication between humans ?

can we agree that the primary function of a dictionary is to reduce miscommunication between humans ?

can we agree that the primary function of a dictionary is to reduce miscommunication between humans ?
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Atheism is simply "a lack of belief"
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@secularmerlin
Atheism is a belief in the way that not eating oatmeal is a breakfast. 
bingo
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@Athias
do you have some plan to mitigate the influence of warlords and other cults-of-personality ?
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@Lemming
Simply merge all sex separated lavatories, bath houses, changing rooms, living spaces in dorms and military barracks.
that's basically what you're already advocating for

you're asking the gay man, with breast implants and wearing an evening gown to only use the men's public washroom
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@Lemming
Disagreement of the law allowing normal children to be operated upon.
nobody (and i mean nobody) is advocating for sex-change surgery for anyone under the age of 18
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@Lemming
Disagreement of the law being used to force me to claim X as normal, true, or desirable,
there is no such law
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@Lemming
Disagreement of the law being used to force pronouns out of me,
i'm 100% in agreement with you on the "compelled speech" issue
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@Athias
I don't believe that snapshots of horrific incidents set the standard for the conscience exhibited by people in general. But admittedly, I can only speak to my own experience. I, like many, have experienced both the good and bad, and yet I still have faith in people--politicians and members of government excluded. What would it state about the attempt to actualize ideals, when the the foundation--people at their best--is dismissed based on platitudes using "human nature"?
with very few exceptions, power corrupts
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@Athias
I do believe that people generally have a conscience.
i'm not as confident

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@FLRW
pics or it didn't happen
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@Lemming
You think sports has a hard time of separating classes by sex?
do you know what an epistemological limit is ?
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@Lemming
It's a 'basic example of obligated speech.
ok, i somehow thought you meant "legally obligated"
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@Lemming
I don't want to live in a society that normalizes pedophilia or bestiality, meth use,
methamphetamine usage was "normalized" in the 1930s (benzedrine, phentermine, adderall)

and comparing someone who wishes to wear different clothes and or receive elective surgery to either of the your other two examples is quite a leap in logic

would you advocate making certain hairstyles (mohawk) and or unnatural hair colors illegal because they make some people feel uncomfortable ?
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@Lemming
In the cases above, you are pressumably under no statutory or contractual obligation to warn anyone of the weaknesses of the bridge or of the risk of rock sildes (unless you are a police officer, forest ranger, etc.), and you did not create the risk (i. e., you did not weaken the bridge or broke the sign), so you would not be held liable, under Spanish law. [**]
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@Lemming
Than they are by people who 'normalize sex changes for 'normal people.
why does this "bother" anyone ?

it's like the people against gay marriage

if you don't like it, don't do it

otherwise, it has nothing to do with you
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@Lemming
The point is that Mike Tyson would have to actually 'be bantam weight,
that's why all professional boxing matches require a formal "weigh in"

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@Lemming
People fall into the gray more than the extremes, I 'think,
It's absurd to go about life in black and white morality/
exactly

not necessarily 100% M (OR) 100% F
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@Lemming
Say there are three doors in a zoo, and I lie to an individual, telling them that the trapdoor to the Tiger Pit is the bathroom,
How do I need a citation?
an actual legal case study might clear this up nicely
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@Athias
strangely enough,

the people running this shit-show feel like they can live with a "clean-conscience" if the slaves "VOLUNTARILY" participate

this is the key benefit of the current system over say, FLAGRANT TYRANNY
I would personally agree with this. Though if we are to maintain our examples and standards, there is no way for either of us to know how "clean" their consciences feel.
there is a lot of effort made to gain "the consent" and or "assent" of the general population

this is most likely because people who are given "a choice" (even if it is technically a "false choice") are more likely to blame themselves than to blame those who gave them the "false choice" and or "the system itself" and are subsequently going to be easier to control (less chance of La Révolution)

this leads to less overt human suffering and or outright slaughter, which sort of became a "problem" perhaps not for the "commanders" but for the peripheral participants and foot-soldiers in forceful government action (Jallianwala Bagh for example)

and generally speaking, (IFF) someone has a conscience (THEN) reducing overt suffering and or outright slaughter is considered preferable
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@Athias
there is a hard upper limit to how much comfort and entertainment any particular human can enjoy in one lifetime
Why would there be a limit on that which is not quantifiable?
because dopamine response has a hard upper limit (with diminishing returns)

and because human experience is finite
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Atheism is simply "a lack of belief"
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@FLRW
It's too bad Jacob didn't have a smart phone.
good point
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@Lemming
We can't have male or female prisoners going to the wrong prison, just because they 'say they're the opposite sex,
current laws do not prevent this

it makes way more sense to divide sports and prisons by "weight-class" and or "muscle to fat ratio" (both of which are quantifiable without a biopsy and or strip-search)

We can't have Mike Tyson competing in the Bantam weights, just because he 'says he weighs  116 pounds.
boxers drop weight to qualify for lighter weight-classes all the time, regardless if they are named "mike tyson" or not
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@rbelivb
Really, it's nothing to do with homophobia, they're just really big fans of the dictionary.
wouldn't it be nice if "the dictionary" could answer every single question on every single topic ?
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@Lemming
A 'degree of forced speech is necessary, such as if a person when asked, claims there is no fire in a building when there is, and a bunch of people die.
citation please
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@Lemming
And I 'greatly dislike how items such as the pledge of allegiance trivialize oaths and by such make them meaningless.
The pledge story begins with Daniel Sharp Ford, publisher of a children’s magazine called The Youth’s Companion. In 1888, Ford’s publication began selling American flags to public schools as a way to encourage subscription sales. Unfortunately, most school administrators weren’t putting these symbols of the American republic in classrooms. What Ford needed to drive up flag sales was a patriotic marketing scheme. The entrepreneur understood that creative marketing beats as the heart of modern-day capitalism. Luckily for Ford, he found a ready-made marketing opportunity – the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus’s first voyage to the Americas.

Ford’s nephew, James Upham, ran The Youth’s Companion’s premium department. Upham came up with a novel idea – invent a patriotic pledge for children to swear allegiance to the American republic as symbolized by the flag. In 1891, Youth’s Companion hired Francis Bellamy, a former Baptist preacher from Massachusetts, to devise the flag oath.

The year before, Bellamy’s Boston congregation had forced him to resign his job as church pastor. The trouble had been the slant of his sermons. Bellamy was a Christian socialist. He believed that, following the teachings of Jesus, Christians should always be active in promoting “the rights of working people and the equal distribution of economic resources.” [**]
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@Bones
I agree - there is absolutely no way the law should be able to compel you to certain speech, especially if the speech is demonstrably false. 
which means you agree that nobody should be forced to call themselves "male" or "female" based on anything except their personal preference
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@Bones
om a binary sample, that is, they are the only two options out of a selection of two. We can thus just consider the entire set valid and not mention them (since you can only either be a biological male or not a biological male, and you argue that either can be a women, there's no need to mention born male or not born male as a criteria. That's like me sa
it's exactly the same as someone self-identifying as a "christian" or self-identifying as an "atheist" or self-identifying as a "gnostic" or self-identifying as a "hindu"

you don't need a "strict definition" of "christian" in order to understand generally what someone means when they call themself a "christian"

have you even considered why this particular "denial of reality" is any concern of yours, when many other "denials of reality" don't seem to bother you in the slightest ?

and sure, what if it is, for the sake of argument, technically "a denial of reality", so what ?
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Atheism is simply "a lack of belief"
> strict atheism is logically incoherent therefore atheism should be redefined to its broadest sense. (Where is the value that logically incoherent concepts must be removed from the lexicon?)

(IFF) we can agree that language only exists to serve as a means of clear communication between humans with as little error and miscommunication as possible (THEN) we can agree that removing and or modifying the definitions of words to make them less logically incoherent serves the core function of language itself

There's your conditional statement.

> strict atheists are functionally indistinguishable from broad atheists therefore atheism should be redefined to its broadest sense. (Where is the value that performatively similar ideologies must be condensed under the same name?)

(IFF) the broad term "theism" is valid and useful to describe a large category of people who believe extremely different things, many of them mutually exclusive and even diametrically opposed (THEN) the broad term "atheism" should be able to accommodate BOTH "lack of belief" AND "active DISbelief" without any problem whatsoever, especially since "lack of belief" does not logically EXCLUDE "active DISbelief" and as such it should be considered the more inclusive (broader) definition and therefore PRIMARY

Feel free to point out any errors you may find.
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@sadolite
You know that and I know that,  that's two people not living a delusional indoctrinated lie.
which is exactly what any christian would argue about any non-christian
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@zedvictor4
I agree.

I'm 62 years of age, and I don't expect that my social niche will change.

By virtue of birth and upbringing, I am far more fortunate than a lot of my fellow earthlings.

I am content with the way things are.

I would suggest that the super-rich are no more content than I am.

There's only so much spare time in a day to be spent doing fun stuff, and I would be bored to tears floating about on a super-yacht all day.

Though I wonder how much time the super-rich get to spend on their super-yachts.
well stated
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@n8nrgim
if a person is a hermit or recluse that doesnt participate in society, maybe they have a claim to not owing society anything or not wanting to pay taxes. anyone who participates in common society owes that government for what it does, in at least some capacity
well stated
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Atheists are cowards.
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@Mharman
I wouldn’t be 100% pessimistic about convincing people, only 90%. I’ve had people here make arguments that were logical enough to change my mind on a few topics. It shouldn’t take a deep dive into human psychology and an entire flame war to change someone’s mind. All it should require is a couple of solid arguments. So, while it is true that debating on the internet is mostly fruitless, it isn’t completely fruitless. Same thing with debating people irl honestly. It’s a product of human nature. A society with no debating at all is a society in free fall. And yes, it is possible to have a social life irl and a meaningful discussion on this site.
100% THIS
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@Athias
They can live better than those who live better than most kings, without the system.
there is a hard upper limit to how much comfort and entertainment any particular human can enjoy in one lifetime

and,

strangely enough,

the people running this shit-show feel like they can live with a "clean-conscience" if the slaves "VOLUNTARILY" participate

this is the key benefit of the current system over say, FLAGRANT TYRANNY
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@Bones
even if it were the case, would you be comfortable with allowing visually caucasian men who have "one drop" of "black" blood in them to then identify as black? 
would i be comfortable ?

of course i would be perfectly comfortable

why would i give a shit if someone calls themselves "black" or not ?

there are native americans (first peoples) who look perfectly white

but have a verifiable "blood quantum" of 51% or more (which is required by federal law for native american status)
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@Bones
Well that's very subjective, what is "one-drop".
a great-grandparent that is 1/16th african
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@Bones
I care because if you utter that which is untrue and expect me to go along with it, that becomes my problem. 
do you believe AHURA MAZDA is the supreme being ?

how is "untruth" (aka OPINION) "your problem" ?
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@Athias
Why would they--the rich--even want to participate in such a society?
because if they use the right combination of rhetoric and incentives, they can manipulate the system to allow them to live better than most kings
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@Athias
that's roughly $48,000 each annually.
public school alone costs the state approximately $12,000.00 per year per child

that's about $144,000.00 per child for an average high-school diploma

not to mention police and fire protection and what driving would cost if every road was a private toll-road
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@Athias
So taxes are tantamount to the rich paying the poor "protection" money?
BINGO
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@Athias
Provided by who? At who's expense?
try this hypothesis,

imagine a world where the police and mail services went on strike and or had their budgets cut off entirely

kinda like the opening scene of robocop

don't the "rich" have "more to lose" in this scenario ?

there are clearly more "poor" and it would seem likely they would overwhelm the "rich" with sheer numerical advantage

sure, eventually it would all "settle down" and revert back to some sort of "wild west" maybe 1860's fever dream (if we're lucky)

but we'd very likely end up with "company towns" and workers dealing with the prospect of near-slavery conditions (which we might be heading towards anyway)

it would be nice if we all raised our own food on our own land giving us very little incentive to violate our neighbor's rights

but i'm just not sure we can get to that point from where we are now

my understanding is that "welfare" and "public services" are "cheaper" than "incarceration"

the "rich" subsidize the "poor" in order to keep them from throwing "La Révolution"

net "taxes" are actually negative for nearly everyone making less than $100,000 a year
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@secularmerlin
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
Inarguably the biologically ingrained hierarchy. Still one could argue that it would be monstrous to use this as an excuse to or a defense of exploiting the weak/defenseless or to initiate a policy of eugenics. 
i find the gravity of this three point "essential moral framework" lies in its nearly perfect universality

and while i do not necessarily disagree with your listed concerns, i am curious to know if you've managed to find an actual logic based counter point

to extend my reasoning here, i've found that basically, the best way to defend these three points is to spread these essential ideas and associate with like-minded individuals and defend your neighbor (and their right to defend themselves) with a similar measure of conviction that one would defend themselves

neighbors protecting neighbors in a decentralized and fully redundant anarchic cohesive tribalistic system
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@Athias
Yes. However, Police and Mail are not sold in the market; they're just provided after the fact of taxation, a portion of which is provided to the aforementioned and is determined strictly by the government.
what would you say to the proposal that these are considered "essential services" and should be provided to all citizens (in order to qualify as a "functional society") ?
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Curious facts about witchcraft that.....
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@Polytheist-Witch
And [SOME] atheists call us liars.

perhaps, but not ALL ATHEISTS
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@secularmerlin
it doesn't appear to follow that ALL humans are worth preserving
I am not prepared emotionally or intellectually to decide which humans do not deserve to live. You are welcome to take a wack at it but I presume you will get a lot of pushback from whichever humans you deem unworthy. 
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
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