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@Benjamin
Is it ethical or wise that the individual's sovereignty is supplanted with the states'Are you an anarchist? If not, this argument is incompatible with your existing beliefs. You see, society and the state in general is by definition suppressing the sovereignty of individuals.
ANARCHY = NO KINGS
ANARCHY = DEMOCRACY
ANARCHY = NO PRIESTS NO PROPHETS NO OLIGARCHS
ANARCHY = NO "LEADERS" ONLY "PUBLIC SERVANTS"
ANARCHY = BLOCKCHAIN
ANARCHY = HOLACRACY
ANARCHY = TRANSPARENCY
ANARCHY = PROCRUSTEAN LAW
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
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@dustryder
The legislative branch does not have the power to literally protect Roe V Wade as in the ruling made by the supreme court. What they do have the power to do is enact legislation that encapsulates the ideas behind Roe v Wade (access to abortion) into law. And that should be perfectly fine as the supreme court has simply ruled that the right to abortion is not one guaranteed by the constitution. This does not bar such rights being enacted at either the federal or state level.
well stated
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@thett3
There can be occasional bleeding that could be mistaken for a period
the two are functionally indistinguishable
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@RationalMadman
I am kind of enthralled with your psudointellectual posts.
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@RationalMadman
You cannot have periods while pregnant.
this claim is provably false
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@Lemming
The First Truth acknowledges the existence of suffering. It says simply that suffering is a part of life on earth.
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@RationalMadman
Clocks measure time, maybe you meant machines and body-wise both genders and sexes are biological machines.
embryo development is not uniform
not every woman has perfectly predictable cycles (like a clock)
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@RationalMadman
and period cycles
women are not clocks
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@thett3
we restrict what people are allowed to do with their bodies all the time.
by "all the time" what exactly do you mean ?
i'm pretty sure only i can decide what i pierce and tattoo and consume and inject
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@RationalMadman
Personally I think to 4 months in as absolute deadline is the correct judgement call.Id accept 3.5 month deadline as valid.
i personally know more than one woman who didn't even know they were pregnant until 3 months in
often women can still have some menstruation, even during pregnancy
many people think it's very cut and dried, pregnant or not pregnant, but it's a bit fuzzy, especially in the first three months
30 days to figure out what you're going to be doing for the next 18 years seems a bit short
14 days to figure out what you're going to be doing for the next 18 years seems ridiculous
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@thett3
I do support a social safety net for people in need and I'm willing to pay for it with my tax dollars, I don't know what more you could ask of me politically
i am very glad we can agree on this rather important point
perhaps we might also agree that enacting laws that restrict access to abortion are counterproductive and lead many to commit miscarriages by alcoholism and many other much more dangerous actions
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@bmdrocks21
I suggest we leave this in the hands of gun owners and FFL dealers
this is actually a great idea
everyone seems to have lost focus on what the scope of government entails
the primary use case for government is to provide basic public services, roads, water service, electricity and more broadly, public safety in the public sphere
the secondary use case for government is to mediate disputes between citizens
if you have personally been harmed in some quantifiable way by another citizen, then you have the right (not the obligation) to file legal action against that specific citizen
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@bmdrocks21
If you caused a car crash because you were drunk driving and ruptured someone’s kidneys because of your negligence, I think you should have to give over a kidney to save their life if you are a compatible donor.
imagine the example, where you didn't cause the kidney failure
you simply have two compatible kidneys
you are not expected to save every single life on earth, even if you have the ability to save some
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@SkepticalOne
I have an issue with one person being forced to provide their organs, tissue, blood for the benefit of another.
even the police are NOT legally obligated to assist
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@Earth
Are there actually anyone important advocating for abortion up to the point of birth?
who do you personally consider "important" ?
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@n8nrgim
but at least i'm being consistent given i expect women after a couple trimesters to have a moral obligation to the baby.
just because you let someone live in your house for 4 months doesn't mean you must therefore let them stay as long as they wish
even if it's freezing cold outside
think of it as a deportation
or an eviction
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@n8nrgim
if someone intentionally or recklessly causes another person to need an organ, i would say it would be fair to expect the culprit to fork over the organ.
an eye for an eye
a tooth for a tooth
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@SkepticalOne
No, but it is much easier to argue in stark black and white moral terms. Nuance is hard.
LOGICAL COHERENCE
IS EASIER FOR SOME THAN FOR OTHERS
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@thett3
It boggles my mind that you think that a viable fetus is a living human being that carries moral weight but the woman’s right to choose is more important.
It boggles my mind that many think that a viable fetus is a living human being that carries moral weight but gleefully ignore the plight of immigrants and homeless people and children being slaughtered in warzones.
the overwhelming majority of abortions are a consequence of economic instability
if people "really really cared" so much about "the baby" then you'd think they'd spend their "holy fervor" on ACTUALLY HELPING SINGLE MOTHERS
instead of focusing on filling up our already overcrowded prisons
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@thett3
because so many people refuse to admit that even that is immoral
there are tons of things that are considered "immoral" but are not technically "crimes"
i understood this discussion to be about whether or not we should or should not impose LEGAL restrictions upon what happens inside a woman's own body
for example
infidelity is immoral
would you personally support a federal law making infidelity a crime ?
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@n8nrgim
almost none of the people who are for complete legality of abortion is willing to entertain answering the question of what happens when a woman abuses the privilege, and gets a late late term elective abortion for a stupid and immoral reason. i think it shows how weak their position is.
the answer is, SHE IS ACCOUNTABLE TO HER GOD OF CHOICE
whatever happens inside her own body is none of your business
self-ownership is absolute
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@ebuc
Do really need more radioactive waste sitting around at various locations?
Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors (LFTR):
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@Nyxified
because anyone who believes in it logically must learn to photosynthesize or starve to death.
some merely grow their own food
instead of consuming the fruits of exploited labor
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@FLRW
world population in 1951 = 2.5 billion souls
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@thett3
If a woman is 26 weeks pregnant she's had like four solid months to consider what to do about the pregnancy, if the baby can survive outside of the womb why would we kill it instead of letting it survive outside of the womb? America is an insanely wealthy country and babies put up for adoption are snatched up immediately. I don't have any sympathy for the wishes of someone who had four solid months to think about what to do about the pregnancy and chooses to abort it after the point where it could survive outside the womb
ECTOGENESIS FTW
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@thett3
what's your position on providing food and shelter for single mothers ?I'm in favor of a welfare state
good to know
do you suppose, that perhaps, if we gave women with unexpected and or unwanted pregnancies the incentive of reasonable nourishment and decent place to live (especially if they need to immediately move away from their parents and or spouse and or common-law spouse) that perhaps, maybe a large percentage of these "problem" abortions would simply disappear on their own, without turning these women into criminals ?
interesting note
Mexico has by far the lowest (per capita) abortion rate and Russia has the highest (at nearly double the United States)
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@ebuc
whose ancestors migrated to the north, should all move back to regain control of government in 7 southern states.
that's how democracy works
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@thett3
I'm moving rapidly to the extreme pro-life camp
phenomenal,
knowing what you believe and why you believe it is always better than sitting on the fence
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@thett3
babies at that stage of development instead of allowing them to be born?
what's your position on providing food and shelter for single mothers ?
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@thett3
Brittney Poolaw was just about four months pregnant when she lost her baby in the hospital in January 2020.
outside of your "first trimester window" and practically indistinguishable from an abortion
and
good to know we can find some common-ground
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@thett3
They are linked in a sense in that I think there are circumstances where it's justified for the government to overrule someone's choice about their body
do you believe countries that outlaw abortion have better public health outcomes ?
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@thett3
When a 21-year-old Native American woman from Oklahoma was convicted of manslaughter after having a miscarriage, people were outraged. But she was not alone.
Brittney Poolaw was just about four months pregnant when she lost her baby in the hospital in January 2020.
This October, she was convicted and sentenced to four years in prison for the first-degree manslaughter of her unborn son.
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@thett3
It's a yes or no question.
elected officials should not be making medical decisions
they are of course free to make recommendations
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@thett3
But we did know how deadly it was at the time. And by the time there were enough excess vaccines to discuss what happens with the people who voluntarily chose not to be vaccinated, the efficacy of the vaccine was clear too. I didn't think it was necessary to force it. Obviously I wouldn't support forcing people to be vaccinated without knowing the facts about the disease or vaccine
does this "public health" policy inform your stance on abortion perhaps ?
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@thett3
For a somewhat different situation, like a disease where breakthrough infections were much more deadly, or where herd immunity could eliminate it once and for all, yes.
the argument at the time was, "we don't know how deadly this will be, so better to force it on everyone now before the worst-case-scenario takes us all by surprise"
this will also be the argument for the inevitable next "public health scare"
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@thett3
I don't consider myself to have a "godlike sovereignty" over my body
so, you're "pro-mandatory-vaxx" ?
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@Lemming
If she's in the US military and develops schizophrenia,Then the military would get her to take medication to return her to normalcy.Same as with a guy.
great example
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@Lemming
If she's in the US military and develops schizophrenia,Then the military would get her to take medication to return her to normalcy.Same as with a guy.
i know from experience that you are considered "property of the state" when you are a member of the armed forces
you basically have the same (non)rights as a convicted felon
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@thett3
How is doing that to viable fetuses preferable to telling the mother no, you can't do this at this point
at what point does a woman not have godlike sovereignty over what happens inside her own body ?
and at what point is she required to get your personal approval ?
think of a "non-abortion" example please
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@Lemming
Clear and achievable goal is essential, I'd agree.Difficult to 'do anything without identifying what problem is, what needs to be done.Often difficult to know if you even have accomplished anything, without identifying goal.
all laws should be based on the same set of coherent axioms
the goal of lawmaking should be to make laws that never require modification
all laws should be enforced with perfect uniformity
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@FLRW
If you were to ask how many children go without getting adopted, the answer may surprise you. Although it is difficult to quantify, roughly 20,000 children “age out” of foster care each year. This means they are now legally adults without ever finding a family through adoption.
EXACTLY
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@n8nrgim
i remember back when the late term abortionist Tiller was still alive, and one of the examples of an elective abortion he did was when the mother wanted to go to a rock concert but her pregnancy was in her way.
great example
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@Lemming
Clear and achievable goal is essential, I'd agree.Difficult to 'do anything without identifying what problem is, what needs to be done.Often difficult to know if you even have accomplished anything, without identifying goal.
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
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@Lemming
Locations might not 'be comparable.Different locations have different constitutions, thresholds, likely actions and behaviors.
prostitutes are much safer in las vegas than they are in detroit
you would have a lot of trouble making a case that thc legalization in colorado has not been a net benefit
alcohol prohibition ended in 1933 because people realized that the cost of enforcement and the criminal syndicates that are created by prohibition are WORSE than the perceived "problem" of individuals who may or may not over-consume alcohol (not to mention that government officials were some of the biggest purchasers of illegal alcohol)
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@thett3
But if someone did do it just as a whim,
do you even have a single example of this ?
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@thett3
the situation for children who are given up when older is a lot rougher
yep
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@Lemming
And situations 'can be worse if done illegally, than legally.People make similar argument about prostitution, and drugs, I think.Though I'm not wholly convinced that consequences are better or worse, depending on legal or illegal.
compare and contrast amsterdam and detroit
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@Lemming
I 'have tried to help people, and made situation worse.I'm sure laws have existed, do exist, that require people 'act in situations,Whether to just call the police, or step in themselves.
you might be rather surprised to know that the police are NOT legally obligated to help you, even if you call them
people have tried to sue the police for not showing up to assist them and the courts have ruled the police have no legal obligation to assist
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@Lemming
One can 'excuse human weakness, but it is not something I should 'aspire to, I think.
a clear and achievable goal is essential
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