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@Lemming
Are the laws I vote on, not within my jurisdiction?
have you ever voted for a law ?
but to answer your question,
(IFF) you can vote for a law (THEN) it is within your jurisdiction
i should have been more specific
i was referring to your personal jurisdiction (presumably you don't call the police every time someone does something you disapprove of)
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@Lemming
I have never claimed to be perfect.
your own sense of morality needs to be realistic
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@Lemming
Even if I dislike someone, or they do not provide benefit to me, it is not morally right to ignore their plight.do you eat chocolate ?do you drink coffee ?do you buy gasoline ?
it is impossible to "not ignore" someone's tragic plight
that's why you must focus on your own jurisdiction
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@Lemming
The murder of a close loved one, causes grief,We write laws against murder.An accidental death, causes grief,We work 'against such accidents occurring.An accident of negligence causes death, causes grief,We might make laws requiring people hold proper awareness in certain situations.
law is ALWAYS based on jurisdiction
every jurisdiction defines murder in their own way
for example
an executioner is NOT a murderer (according to the law)
even though the executioner is intentionally taking the life of someone who is no threat to them personally
and shockingly
many jurisdictions have "felony murder" statutes, which make any fatal accident even indirectly associated with the act of a crime a technical murder
but these "felony murder" statues do not apply to police misconduct
the problem here
is that a miscarriage and a home abortion look identical
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@Greyparrot
Point is if people are willing to go to war (some people actually enlisted and died over there) over a strategical money laundering country like Ukraine, it's just as plausible they would go to war over the lives of dogs, cats, fetuses, and other things that resemble humans.
great point
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@Lemming
I consider it immoral, 'not to render aid, in many situations.
of course
have you ever sincerely tried to help someone and ended up making things worse ?
also
this abortion thing is about "the law", not moral or immoral
my question was "how would you write a law to force someone to render aid ?"
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@ADreamOfLiberty
the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection.-John Stuart MillYou quote it, but I doubt you or anyone else here believes it.
wow
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@Reece101
The actual foundation of law is the ability to enact it. There’s a reason law and order go hand in hand.
the ability to enforce ?
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@Novice
I think the most reasonable way I can answer it to say that abortion should be illegal from conception, prime facie.
good
how many murder investigations are you going to initiate for miscarriages ?
and how are you going to force people to register every time they conceive / copulate ?
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@Lemming
Is a miscarriage not often a cause of grief?
yes, quite profound grief
and abortion also causes profound grief
but we can't write a law to make grief illegal
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@Lemming
We live in a society, and by our existence viewing others, by our power, are 'part of the interaction.An individual who sees a child fall in a well, says nothing, does nothing, ought be rebuked, shamed, acted against in the law.
which law ?
how would you personally write such a law ?
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@Lemming
Even if I dislike someone, or they do not provide benefit to me, it is not morally right to ignore their plight.
do you eat chocolate ?
do you drink coffee ?
do you buy gasoline ?
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@Lemming
If criminals are reported and caught, they become more stealthy,But this is better than criminals acting in free reign with no worry of being stopped.
the law is reactive, never proactive
the law always presumes innocence
coercing a child to testify against their primary caretaker is statistically NOT in the child's best interest
if a nurse wants to PERSONALLY get involved and offer perhaps free and or low cost childcare for the suspected victim, that's their personal choice
but simply "calling the cops" in order to "clear your conscience" rarely if ever benefits the child
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@Lemming
I was just drinking, I didn't 'mean to run over that person with my car.Some situations of aid being possible to render, are more clear cut than others.
sure
but your decision is your own decision
you can never be forced to render aid
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@Lemming
Is this not how small nations become large nations?How international law is made?
international law is not like the law that you and i know
international law is a strong word for an agreement, a sort of consensus, which holds about the same weight as a promise from a stranger
violations of international law are not enforceable
and
the united states has formally withdrawn any support and or association with the international criminal court
wouldn't it be nice to be able to tell a judge "i have formally withdrawn my support for this court, so you can't hold me"
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@Lemming
If an individual is tossed into the road, and I run over their leg,Both causing a location for blood to escape, and by my car parking over it, 'blocking that escape of blood,'Ought I drive off, killing that person?How much worse if I 'ordered that person to 'be tossed in front of my car?
(iff) you did not INTEND to cause damage
(then) you are not morally culpable
end of story
in every situation you do what you think is best IN THE MOMENT
there should never be a law that FORCES you to "render aid"
because in many cases, attempting to assist leads to more harm than good
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@Lemming
And how will the fetus or baby press charges, being as they are, a fetus or baby?
they can file a complaint with the owner of the territory in which they reside
and if that does not yield satisfactory results
their next of kin can file a complaint on their behalf
do you care about miscarriages ?
because there are way more miscarriages than abortions
and technically at least half of them are theoretically preventable
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@Lemming
Some random person on the street has a moral obligation to file a complaint and or take legal action.
please explain
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@Lemming
We seem to care about Ukraine and Russia?
exactly
but somehow we didn't give a shit about Georgia being invaded or the Rwandan conflict
the "reason" we "care" about Ukraine is, they control roughly 30% of the world's wheat production
with the effects of climate change spiraling out of control and the looming threat of "covidz24"
food shortages are practically inevitable
Ukraine is strategically significant
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@Lemming
It's not about 'myself being harmed,It's about protecting those who cannot protect themselves,It's why hospital staff report parents, if it looks like their child is suffering from abuse.
which likely results in many children not receiving medical attention
it's the classic priest's dilemma
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@Lemming
What does a fetus own?
the unborn lives on the whim of the ruler of the territory in which it finds itself
in the same way that the ruler of a sovereign country decides who stays and who goes and who lives and who dies
imagine if one country decided to try and tell every other country that they are no longer allowed to forcibly deport or kill anyone ?
imagine if one country decided to try and tell every other country that they MUST provide dialysis and other expensive life saving drugs to anyone who required them ?
imagine what this country would have to do in order to ENFORCE these demands ?
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@Lemming
We care when a bully, bullies a victim, and we 'see it occur, for by our perception of said event, we 'are part of it.
the bully and the victim are both presumably citizens of the same territory
and
the victim always has a right to file a complaint and or take legal action
in the case of a "wrongful death" the victim's next of kin has a right to file a complaint and or take legal action
some random person on the street does not have a right to file a complaint and or take legal action
for example
chris rock declined to press charges against will smith for assault
even though many people were "affected" by will smith's assault on chris rock
none of them have legal standing
because they have not been materially harmed
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@Lemming
When doctors molest patients.
the patient always has a right to file a complaint and or take legal action
in the case of a "wrongful death" the patient's next of kin has a right to file a complaint and or take legal action
some random person on the street does not have a right to file a complaint and or take legal action
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@Lemming
We 'do seem t o care when other nations act against internationally recognized human rights.
"enforcement" is extremely selective
technically, you can't force a sovereign nation to change their laws and or customs
unless you invade them
do you believe women own their own bodies ?
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@Greyparrot
simply let individual individuals decide what happens inside their own bodiesSadly, people care about what happens to the fetus and stray dogs. People will go to war over the poor treatment of dogs and cats. Have you not watched John Wick?
sure "they care" sure
maybe
but if medical privacy is maintained
how the fuck are they "affected" ?
if you personally don't want to have an abortion, then don't get one
if you want to prevent abortions, then perhaps make some effort to help women in desperate situations instead of blaming them for their predicament
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@Lemming
Though 'human, does not mean 'person, I suppose.But I myself don't agree that it follows that a fetus or newborn baby isn't a 'person.
in the same way that saudi arabia (a sovereign territory) is perfectly within their rights to behead people for witchcraft
it's nobody's business what happens in the doctor's office (medical privacy)
nobody (outside that sovereign territory) has any standing to file a complaint
because nobody (outside that sovereign territory) is materially damaged
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@Lemming
Though 'human, does not mean 'person, I suppose.But I myself don't agree that it follows that a fetus or newborn baby isn't a 'person.
your body is a sovereign territory
you and only you decide who (or what) lives inside your body and for how long (this includes the right to refuse any and all medications and or interventions)
you are only accountable to you for your own body and you are free to change your mind at any moment (like a sovereign)
only when that person moves from inside your body to outside your body do they gain citizenship and the associated rights and protections
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@Lemming
I think you make a good argument, but if there are animals as intelligent as humans of X age,Then by your argument, humans don't become 'human, until they are sufficiently developed,And some (Mentally challenged) 'never become human.Seems to me.
well stated
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@Greyparrot
etter than simply letting individual state pluralities decide what to do with their fetuses.
better yet
simply let individual individuals decide what happens inside their own bodies
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@Athias
why is "shame" included in free speech's purview?
bingo
isn't "shame" also free-speech ??
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@Nyxified
who will kick them to the curb the second they leave the womb.
yep
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@Novice
I don't even frequently use this forum, but I am yet to see any point that actually explains to us why the circumstances that led to the instanciation of one's life makes their life inherently inferior.
great point
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@ADreamOfLiberty
this seems to place a monumental weight (the "value" of humanity itself) on the (rather elusive) pin-head of "free-will"Reason and choice have monumental weight. Whether it is truly unique to humanity or not is besides the point.
at what point did you reason-and-choose to avoid pain and discomfort
at what point exactly did you reason-and-choose to enjoy your favorite food and drink
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@SkepticalOne
they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike
impressive
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@ILikePie5
By killing babies up to the moment of birth? Wow.
do you consider yourself "anti-war" ?
you know, to save-all-the-babies that are killed in wars ?
do you consider yourself "pro-immigration" ?
you know, to save-all-the-babies that die because of malnutrition and generally unlivable conditions ?
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@Dr.Franklin
They literally built everything we see today.
are you talking about the greeks, or the algerians, or the french, or the libyans, or the italians, or the egyptians, or the swedes, or the irish, or the germans ?
because, news flash
they've been killing each other for centuries
there is no "white homeland" and there is no "white culture" and there is no "white race"
and even in the united states
only 3% of the population owned slaves
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@thett3
Most people don’t want to ban abortion entirely but also don’t think it should be legal up to the moment of birth. What do you think the limit should be and why?
who has legal standing to bring a case against a doctor ?
in other words
how exactly are you personally harmed by my choice of whether or not to gestate an infant ?
and
we shouldn't have laws that interfere with a doctor's choice of medical procedure
also
at what point does a prospective mother stop owning her own body ?
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@ILikePie5
it's called "strict border enforcement"
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I do think if we're going to establish that personhood begins at conception that child support should start immediately after a positive pregnancy test. And that any benefits from welfare that the woman's receiving she began receiving for the unborn child too. And none of those benefits are returnable if she miscarries. You want to make the unborn a person then everything that a child gets once it's born it should be getting as soon as it's conceived. And any child support that the father pays between conception and a possible miscarriage is not refundable.
great point
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Like every form of determinism, racism invalidates the specific attribute which distinguishes man from all other living species: his rational faculty. Racism negates two aspects of man’s life: reason and choice, or mind and morality, replacing them with chemical predestination.
wow
this seems to place a monumental weight (the "value" of humanity itself) on the (rather elusive) pin-head of "free-will"
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@ADreamOfLiberty
is defending your own family "irrational" ?Not in most cases.
isn't tribalism (aka "rooting for the home team") a natural extension of "protecting your own family" ?
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@ILikePie5
It really is. You should watch some of the videos that explain it. I don’t see how people would support that, but that’s just me.
there are a lot of disgusting things
do you believe all disgusting things should be made illegal ?
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@Novice
I don't see any logical reason that says a child's life would become inherently inferior because of the actions of another person
great point
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@ILikePie5
"frankly disgusting" - - is a genius argument
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@sadolite
The legal opinion of any judge sitting on the supreme court carries no more weight than my legal opinion.
yep
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@Benjamin
NASA was funded by the state and was not owned by private enterprises, thus it is not capitalist.
great point
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@CoolApe
The faults of the system are not with capitalism. Its with rent seekers, authoritarians and criminal syndicates
well stated
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Racism is irrational
is defending your own family "irrational" ?
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@oromagi
If there's ever been a sincerely Communist state as Marx defined it, I am not aware of it.
The Korean’s People Association of Manchuria was a real life example of anarcho-communism. They were a society made up of refugees mainly from Korea and many other Asian countries during the Japanese invasions in the early 1900s. They were the first modern day society to have an anarcho-communist society except for a few primitive tribes that exist today. [**]
Also, Port Royal [**]
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