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I agree with Cerulean - I'm not voting for a lynch without Luna here - if we start wagoning scum, then we won't be able to get the 4th vote from town, while if we start wagoning town, then scum can just jump on for a quickhammer. There's no scenario where we would hit scum today.
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@Lunatic
To be honest I understand being in a lot of people's POE's this game (kind of addressing this to everyone, but mostly Luna, since he's clearly going to be the one leading the lynch).
I'm specifically trying not to defend myself this DP because a lot of what I'm being sussed for is ultimately unprovable - I can't prove that I believed in the Wylted lynch, I can't prove my justification is one that Pie really made, I can't prove that Pie decided to put Motivator in the game. And I feel engaging with that would just lead to drawn-out arguments that would distract from actually finding the scum.
We're at a stage of the game where it's harder to prove towniness by being purely uninformed because the POE is so narrow, so it really comes down to just past behavior. I feel that even if I've made mistakes this game, I've been one of the towniest purely because I haven't been playing to be townread. As scum I tend to coast and post good-looking thoughts, while as town I tend to be a lot more proactive, even if it means being wrong sometimes. As scum I never would have pushed Wylted so hard when he was likely going to go down anyway. Basically, I'm town because I cared when I didn't have to.
Right now, I agree that Cerulean probably has the towniest claim because he claimed very early and it fits thematically without being too obvious. I'm really struggling to decide between WF, Mharman, and ADOL but if I had to give gut instinct: WF's claim is really weird but also maybe too specific, Mharman has felt towny behaviorally but I don't like how he's pushing me and Cerulean today, and ADOL sort of has the least going for him but if I'm trying to stress-test my own hypothesis, maybe he would have claimed a less suspicious role as scum.
Going off wagon analysis, both WF and ADOL felt like they were just hopping on the wagon and maybe letting me take the blame for it, and Mharman was at least pushing for Wylted, though rereading through the DP, I am kind of wondering how he got to the conclusion of townreading Wylted in the first place - then again, unless he and Cerulean are the exact scum team, at least one townie was townreading Wylted.
So basically I feel pretty unsure about today and I am just hoping we hit right, I'll probably follow you if it's reasonable.
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@Lunatic
Austins too kind of only because I am wary of how familiar with the theme he is, I don't like motivator though in context to the rest of the roles claimed, but it almost makes too much sense for Oromis.
I get what you mean - all I can say is as a mod myself, I can say that a lot of justifications are based on the mod's whims - I know that if I wanted a role in the game, I might stretch it to fit a character, while if I was struggling to make a certain character work, I might just give them an okay role that fits well and calls it a day. I feel Oromis is an example of the latter - x1 Motivator is an obvious claim, and that's kinda why I feel it should confirm me - because I know the series well, I understand mechanics well, and if I was fakeclaiming then I would have chosen something more subtle.
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I was thinking of no-lynching today in order to give WF a chance if he's telling the truth, but for all we know WF might just claim roleblocked and then we're going into the next day down a confirmed townie in the form of Luna.
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If I'm going off pure balance, if we'd briefly believe everyone is telling the truth (To then deduce who's lying) -
then there are four negative utility roles - Prober, Hammer, Prideful Townie (could make a cop invest fail), and Singer.
as well as three roles that are very difficult to use correctly - Voodoo Lady, Oracle, and x1 Motivator.
and maybe two somewhat "normal" roles of decent power: Arsonist, Bulletproof.
And if WF is telling the truth, scum have multiple roleblocks as well.
Unless we're literally playing against a 2-shot roleblocker and a mafia goon (and maybe even), the setup seems grossly scumsided.
My role makes sense with WF's imo - it gives him an extra chance to get confirmed.
Roles it doesn't work with: Hammerer, Prideful Townie, Singer, Bulletproof, Oracle (to an extent).
That's kinda unreasonable.
ADOL's claim feels like the greatest red flag because it's a pseudo-CC of Oracle that's purely negative utility, which Mharman is overlooking because... he didn't claim a protective role?
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@Mharman
I'm not a huge fan of how you're just leaving out ADOL and whiteflame entirely - from my point of view, that would make the scum team exactly you and Cerulean, by the way.
Your point on ADOL being able to claim a protective role is noted, but absence of a towny claim isn't evidence of towniness by any means, especially given how wack this setup apparently has been - going off behavior, I'd gutlean him as town if the POE wasn't so narrow, but I struggle to think that at least one scum didn't jump onto the Wylted lynch so that I could take most of the blame the next day.
Same for WF - yes, the claim is an unusual one, but I'm not sure what you mean by saying how "risky" it is. There seems to be something incongruous with you saying he made an "egregious" mistake while also saying he got away "scot-free." Which is it?
I'm also really struggling to see how you're pairing me with Cerulean - if Cerulean's town, that's egregious, if he's scum, then that's lining up a later mislynch.
Basically, your analysis is relying on a lot of thematic and mechanical analysis - assumptions that I could reasonably see you making, but which I would expect you to be more cautious about in LYLO.
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I'm at school right now and the wiki is blocked - what's a Singer?
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@Cerulean
When we're on evens, not really? We wouldn't lose a mislynch unless scum already had another way of killing and it would tell you with a very high likelihood who one of the Mafia members is.
That's a good point - probably mis-targeting wouldn't be bad as I initially thought it was. Nevertheless, I don't think there would be any *advantage* in targeting someone who I didn't townread, at worst they'd get a potential extra damaging action and at best they could just idle the motivated action to avoid suspicion. I'm curious if you think otherwise?
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@Mharman
@Cerulean
No, you're not presuming. You're going to go ask if motivating a player without a night action would give feedback or not.
I just asked Pie, but I'm 99% sure that it wouldn't - the wording of my PM (not allowed to quote, obviously) makes it clear that it only applies to active actions, so a passive role like bulletproof wouldn't be affected.
Mharman, while I'm waiting on Pie, could you confirm whether you received any feedback on being motivated last night anyway, I suppose?
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@Mharman
Why not motivate ADOL? He also didn't want to claim.
Because if he's scum, scum get an extra NK, which is pretty obviously bad. It's a matter of risk and reward - relatively speaking, I felt you were less likely to be scum.
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I'll be around later to discuss. Feels like we have a ton of info and we just need to finish things off.
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My thoughts on the claims:
Mharman, agree with Luna that it's not really the role I would expect for the character. Iirc, I would think of her more as a leader type, although she is known for her resilience it's not anything super standout.
WF's claim is... weird. I've never heard of the role before. It almost seems too random to be made up: the justification, being roleblocked two NPs in a row, the exact usage of a 15-letter word, and the 50% chance (because lolmod apparently) to inform someone that they're town. Going back to the justification, again it's not really what I would expect for the character. I do remember that WF generally has gone for simpler fakeclaims in the past, like Jailkeeper and VIP, so that's a point in his favor.
ADOL needs to claim, ofc.
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So I didn't motivate anyone on N1 because I didn't have a strong enough townread on anyone to risk giving scum an extra NK or ability. I asked Pie, motivator also allows someone to carry an extra kill as well if they have that ability.
I decided to use it on N2 since I had stronger reads and I wanted to confirm myself before going into MYLO.
The potential pool of targets was [Luna, Earth, Mharman, WF, ADOL, Cerulean.]
Luna was conftown, but since he got vanillaized, I presume motivating him wouldn't do anything - it only gives targets the ability to use an extra ability if they have one.
Earth was hammerer, so obviously motivating him wouldn't do anything either.
I considered Cerulean, but I didn't really have a townread on him, and also, even if he got to use his role twice if he's telling the truth, it's still pretty useless since we're at the point that if he's town, he's not getting night-killed, and if he's lynched, the game ends anyway, so there wouldn't be any utility in that.
That left Mharman, WF, and ADOL as serious targets.
In the end, the tiebreaker was rereading over the DP - during last DP, I got really tunneled on Wylted and I was basically scumreading Mharman because he kept defending Wylted. But with Wylted actually flipping town, I felt there was no reason for scum Mharman to defend him so hard and not just take the easy mislynch on an investigative role.
I was also kinda hoping that Mharman had a strong town PR since he said he didn't want to claim, which I figured he wouldn't do if he had a weak or negative utility role, so I was hoping to confirm myself and give town an edge today.
Unfortunately he's bulletproof, so I presume he wouldn't get any message about being motivated. I understand if people have me in POE today because I'm unconfirmed and I was also pushing really hard for Wylted yesterday, but I'll try my best to solve and hit scum today.
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I'm Oromis and I'm 1-shot Motivator (give someone the ability to act twice on the next night). Extremely paraphrased justification is that I help guide and train Eragon, making him stronger.
I motivated Mharman last night. Explaining why in a sec.
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Somebody told me it was 2 characters and I believed them since nobody corrected them to add roles. Fuck off. I didn't read the op. Never have. Never will
^^^ the words of someone who cares about solving in good faith
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I've literally tried to engage with Wylted numerous times day, posted in-depth analysis on mechanics and how he's playing today, pointed out problems with his reasoning and tried to see whether he remediates me, and he goes "you're scum because you're voting me."
Nope. That doesn't EVER come from a town who's trying to solve in good faith. If Wylted flips town, I'm literally willing to be everyone's top suspect tomorrow, because it's not going to happen.
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Yeah I'm done with this.
whiteflame, take a look at Wylted's points, I think they speak for themselves in terms of whether they come from town or scum.
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Town (in order, from strongest to least):
Luna (response to Wylted - also, town regardless of Wylted's alignment, because he's either cop cleared or never scum/scum)
Earth (mostly for roleclaim, want that to be verified asap)
WF (frustration with Wylted felt genuine, liked his approach today)
ADOL (weakest, but still townread analysis today)
Potentially not town:
Cerulean (didn't like the defense of Wylted today, felt like it was for weak reasons)
Mharman (see above)
Scum:
Wylted (scummy use of role, questionable claim that seemed designed solely to survive, has lied at several points today to discredit me and others pushing him)
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new readslist just dropped
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@whiteflame
I actually forgot about how you mentioned that you got RBed - in that case, it should also be pretty suspicious how Wylted is trying to buy himself another day, since he can just easily go into tomorrow claiming his action failed, and like... what are we going to do about it? I really dislike how hard he's trying to hammer home the "there's no downside in giving me another night to get an investigation off" when it feels like he's doing anything to buy time.
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Ok whatever, none of this is going to matter anyway because I should just be blatantly obvious town when Wylted flips scum - this engagement hasn't helped me solve Wylted, but it should help y'all solve me.
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@WyIted
The best move is exactly the same whether I am town or scum. Stop being denseAlso you are scum. Literally who else on my wagon is scum if you aren't.Lunatic and ADOL are town which leaves you and whiteflame.Seriously you should have targeted somebody else this dp
If I'm scum and you're town why do I go for you so hard? My modus operandi as scum is literally lying low and abusing TMI to get townread. I don't think town you believes this, but I know that scum you would pretend to. This just screams that you're scum who's trying to do anything to survive - you've gone for mharman, whiteflame, myself, and a no lynch today at various points, and it doesn't feel like you're trying to solve anything - you're just trying to get another night at all costs.
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@WyIted
It's wifom but clearing people to make the game easier for town as scum is retarded. There is no world where scum wylted actually clears lunatic and there is also no world where scum wylted would entangle himself with his scum buddy if lunatic was scum.
And you conveniently claimed cop AFTER people started sussing you for vanillaizing Luna, rightfully so. It's not clearing in the slighest because it's not just clearing Luna, it's a way of trying to work yourself out of the lynch as well.
It's so easy to lynch me that anyone currently not on my wagon is pretty much cleared as town, except whiteflame who tentatively has his vote on me but not officially.
This logic is also backwards - if you're town, you should look at the people who've been largely hesitating on you today because they don't want to get their hands dirty. If Luna's scum, he has no reason to go on you this hard (not to mention you allegedly cop cleared him). If I'm scum, I have no reason to keep arguing with you and try to genuinely solve your alignment when Luna's already doing that front and center. As for ADOL, his vote is entirely justified, frankly.
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@WyIted
The additional NK doesn't matter because it will likely remove somebody from somebody's scum pool and give informational roles and additional day to figure things out.
What makes you think there are additional informational roles? You're already a cop in a 9-player setup, I highly doubt there'd be any additional roles that would change things mechanically if you're telling the truth.
And also, you're acting like we should take you as town on face value - but I find it far more likely that you're scum, in which case the cost of losing a townie and having another one vanillaized in broad daylight is too great to risk.
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@WyIted
Reminder we get the same amount of mislynches if we no lynch here than if we lynch and we reduce the chances of error by waiting.
Which conveniently gives scum an additional NK. Not to mention I assume you're going to vanillaize another person, probably an unclaimed PR, because you "suspected" them.
I strongly veto this.
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@whiteflame
. On the one hand, I'm tempted to see if he'll be RB'd because I know that mechanic is in this game and I suspect he'll be the target if he's telling the truth (given a Cop would narrow the field). On the other hand, potentially losing yet another town PR could be a big loss and WyIted targeting unknown roles doesn't help his case.
Ok. Thought experiment: I'm dead tomorrow and Wylted claims to have cop checked you innocent while you get vanillaized (assuming you're town).
What do you do? Does that make you, or any of the other players, trust him any more when it doesn't prove anything? And will any of the other players trust his cop check (since there's nothing proving that he didn't just waive his action and then claim an innocent on a teammate).
It doesn't give any additional info; while Wylted is alive, we can never trust anything he says, and I suspect, given what I think of his alignment, it's not going to change either if he flips.
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@Earth
@whiteflame
@Mharman
I think it said 2 characters not roles. This is the second time I caught you in this lie. The first time I thought it was just a mistake, but repeating it after I correct you means it's an obvious lie. - WYLTED
wtf. WYLTED IS LITERALLY TRYING TO DISCREDIT ME OFF PROVABLE LIES RN.
From the OP of DP1:
As always, Mafia will be given the opportunity to ask if any two roles and if any two characters are in the game at any point in time, to which I will truthfully answer. - PIE
I genuinely cannot see town Wylted ever just blatantly lying like this in order to try and discredit my read and paint me as scum. It's incredibly scummy and shows he's not trying to engage me in good faith.
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@WyIted
On DP1 I just said I vanillaize. I only pointed out that it only works with town on dp2. If they thought I was vanillaizing town than they wouldn't block or redirect me. If lunatic was scum and I said I was targeting him to vanillaize clearly my role would be messed with. This is like when a doctor says I am targeting person A, they then assume the scum team will believe them and NK person B, so they actually just protect person B. This type of deception and meta game is expected.
That makes sense for a lot of roles. It doesn't make sense for a role that actively harms the utility of this target, and I don't buy that you thought that others would expect this reasoning.
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I'm strongly not interested in a claim from whiteflame today.
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@Cerulean
A little bit of both, really. I'm off-put by your list that has literally everyone in "Town/Town lean" besides WyIted. I would expect a Town player to construct a list like that, look at it, and realize "Okay, I have too many Town, I need to set the bar higher," but that train of thought just... isn't there. I know you said that it's ordered within tiers, but I still don't get how you ended up with only one person below "Town lean" when you know there's probably 2 Mafia.
This also bothers me a bit because it feels so surface-level. The fact that I have most other people in town lean in a sign that I'm genuinely unsure about my worldview and being honest about it - I'm not going to shove someone I townlean into a scumlean just for the sake of making two scumreads. It's something that requires real evaluation, not a numbers game. If I'm scum, while don't I just fake a nice-looking readlist?
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@Cerulean
WyIted's night action makes perfect sense from a town POV if you think he either A) wanted to spite Lunatic by vanillizing him or B) wanted to have the go-ahead to hard push Lunatic/the knowledge that the fight was Town v. Town. Emotional play does not a Mafia make.
It also makes obvious sense coming from a scum POV. With that in mind, what breaks the tie for me is whether he had alternatives - as town, he could've used it on a negative utility role like he promised, while as scum, doing that basically is just hard townsiding and going to ruin his team sooner or later mechanically.
That's my primary hangup with voting WyIted. I can't recall a single game on this site where the Town didn't have at least one reasonably strong Investigative of some sort, even when it was hindered by some other Mafia ability. So either WyIted is that role, someone is silent about theirs, or there isn't one. I find option one most likely.
If I was a strong investigative role, I wouldn't CC someone who's scummy as hell and likely going to go down. I find this especially strange since Oracle is a fairly strong investigative role, the equivalent of a full rolecop that works even after someone dies, and I don't find it very compatible with cop. I also heavily dislike the way Wylted went about his claim - it feels insanely convenient that he claimed Cop after he got called out for vanillaizing someone, and if you recall, it's not even a guarantee of risking a CC - mafia can ask about two roles, as mentioned in the OP.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Thanks for the response. It's not really that relevant to your alignment, was mostly just something I wanted clarification on.
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@whiteflame
I think everyone should at least have an opinion on WyIted at this point, given the amount of back-and-forth that has happened with him and the number of questions he has answered. I have my issues with some of his responses and his decision to keep drip-feeding information about his role definitely has not helped my perception of him. If this was anyone else, all this would be an obvious red flag and I'd have already voted. Being that it's WyIted and I kind of understand at this point how he came to these conclusions, frustrating as some of them are from my perception, it's become harder to scumread him as we've gone along. I chalk that up to having interacted with WyIted enough that I'm seeing similarities to his usual patterns, but it's hard to say whether they're town or scum at the moment.
Half of Wylted's scum playstyle is refuge in audacity. I do get that he's playing in an erratic way which doesn't feel entirely survivalistic, but the problem is that I have better reasons to townread everyone else and if he's scum, I'm loathe to just let him get away with vanillaizing town after town (because, to be clear, I see Luna as very likely town off his responses to Wylted today).
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@WyIted
He wouldn't know how easy or hard I was ro lynch at that point and I am somewhat susceptible to budding due to being a narcissist.What's important is the absolute faith in me as town. And strong faith is okay but it goes to the point where it feels like inside knowledge of my affiliation.
I... you literally claimed to vanillaize an unclaimed person right after you promised you would use it on a negative utility role. I don't really believe that you thought you would be just fine, and in fact this expectation that people would treat it as such, rather than a more realistic assessment of the situation, is part of why I'm scumreading you, since it feels explicitly fake.
Just to be clear, I want Mharman's claim because I see him as a strong potential partner for you - so I'm struggling to understand the pov from which you're scumreading him if you're truly town.
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@Mharman
Oh also, I think WF's frustration with Wylted doesn't feel like scum-scum theatre. It feels like WF is trying to drag answers out of Wylted and Wylted is deliberately not playing along.
Actually, on second thought, it's probably town even if Wylted is town - because by this point, no one could possibly blame WF for voting Wylted with the answers he's given, so WF continuing to be pretty patient and reconsidering is town behavior.
I think my current team solves are Wylted + Cerulean or Wylted + Mharman.
Mharman, consider this me politely asking you to claim.
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@Cerulean
Why does it bother you that I've mostly been focusing on pushing my top suspect? Looking through your posts today, your only mention of Wylted is:
I suspect it's more likely just "Lunatic is hard accusing me in a bad way, he's scum" if WyIted is Town.That being said, it is overtly suspicious to not target the safer option, Earth. - CERULEAN
I'm currently in a state of believing WyIted, to be honest. It makes sense to have one useful investigative and one much weaker one, and I still find WyIted's behavior extremely difficult to believe as being Mafia. I find that it resembles my own wavering on a lynch when it just "feels off" at an EOD.
My worry here is that you're focusing on Wylted's day actions to the exclusion of his night actions. If you're town, it's actually a decent play for Wylted to allow a no lynch rather than a lynch, because it gives town zero info, gives scum a free NK heading into the next day, and keeps you alive as mislim bait. This actually bothers me a bit because you seem like an experienced player and statistically speaking, no lynches are worse than mislynches in the long term.
Also, if you're town, this reasoning makes sense from the knowledge of your own alignment, but obviously I can't take that on face value.
So I just want to clarify your worldview here: do you think I'm actively pushing for a mislynch by voting Wylted? Or are you just bothered by my narrow focus, and why?
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@WyIted
I am not doing the team analysis thing. Mharman early in the DP indicated to lunatic that I obviously scum read him because I vanillaized him. This indicates inside information because he should bot know I am town. I will link the post in a minute. I think it's a genuine scum slip.
This reasoning in particular bothers me. I have Mharman POEd for other reasons, but that comment was towny - if he's scum and you're town, why doesn't he just straight up call you scum rather than noting how your role use could have come from town? By considering the perspective that you're town, he'd be cutting off a way to jump on an easy mislynch.
Of course, if you're scum, you might just be partnered with him, but obviously you're not claiming that.
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I'm fine with getting a claim from Mharman - I have better reasons to townread everyone else and I don't really buy he's unpaired with Wylted, the push today felt unnatural.
I would, however, like anyone pressuring Mharman to also take a hard stance on Wylted as well - either you should hard townread him for his claim (dunno how tho), or scumread him for how he used it, struggling to understand how anyone could not have a strong opinion on Wylted yet.
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@Lunatic
To your first point I’d say he should have used it either in negative utility or just waived it if town. If he had a strong scum read he was convinced of then maybe he could get a pass for it but that wasn’t the case as he stated, he thought I was town and wanted to town clear me. I have a hard time with that justification.To your second point I agree, but also keep in mind pie almost never uses “cops”. Last time I was mafia in a pie game I asked if a cop existed, and was told no I believe. He uses variation style investigation roles that function similarly but a cop is extremely rare. I am keeping in mind that Wylted is trying to combine a cop with a vanillizer so technically it fits in the parameters of not being a cop, but it’s still something to note that he calls the ability a cop ability
To be clear, for your first point, I was agreeing with you - I was noting that while it might seem too audacious to be scum to just blatantly vanillaize someone after promising to use it on a negative utility player, it's hard to see what other option he has, since using it in a pro-town way just plays against his wincon.
I remember Pie did use cops in a past game, but I'd have to check. Regardless, Wylted's role is a weird mix of.. something.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
ADOL, have you ever played forum mafia before?
There are a few things I noticed from you that I've seen mostly from experienced players, which is why I'm curious:
-The use of "theatre" as a way to describe fake scum-scum conflict, which is indeed a specific piece of vocabulary in mafia that I didn't see any other players this game use yet
-Noting that D1 lynches are barely above rand accuracy (correct, but not an intuitive conclusion)
-Noting that no lynches are statistically worse than rand lynches
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VTL Wylted
Also want to add that the fact he only has one vote and is somehow getting away with his claim, night actions, and behavior is another piece of evidence for him being scum - I feel like if he was town, scum would be dying to stack on him and grab the free mislynch here.
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@Lunatic
Iirc, her ability allows her to sense pain and danger in people close to her - it's not something that I would immediately jump to as "oracle", but it's also not a glaring gap that I'd scumread Cerulean for.
I'd kinda expect her to more be a doc or maybe a watcher, but eh.
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All of these are ordered from top to bottom, even within tiers.
Townreads:
-Luna
-Earth
-ADOL
Townlean:
-Cerulean
-WF
-Mhar
Scumlean:
-Wylted
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Based on their behavior today and yesterday, as well as claims in case of Luna and Earth, I'd be very surprised if they're scum. That leaves Wylted as a solid scumlean behaviorally and mechanically, and I kinda feel the last one would be in my townleans - I have slight reasons to town all of them, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they're scum. In particular, WF and Mharman have felt like a consistent blind spot.
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@Lunatic
1. His targeting of me last night is one of the prime reasons I’ve amped up my suspicion on him. It was incredibly a reckless move and one that he had not indicated in the slightest. He never once mentioned scum reading me in the last day phase. Now he’s saying he was trying to clear me for town confirmation which makes it even sussier. Who cops someone to town clear them? Doesn’t that indicate inside knowledge that he already knew I was town? Also I think the motivation for targeting makes more sense for him to do as scum because he knew I was onto him last day phase and if I was an investigation role it would make sense to get rid of me as an issue. I had kind of expected to be roleblocked or night killed if was right about Wylted being suspicious and so when it turned out he vanillized me it really only made my scum read of him harder. Before the day phase though I was actually strongly trying to consider a world where Wylted was town. I primed him yes, but I wasn’t fully planning on igniting if my read on him ended up changing later on.2. The way he claimed. He was resistant to claiming when I asked and it made no sense to me since the role aspect was already revealed. At that point there is literally no reason not to claim. When I asked him why he claimed he said it was to help catch someone via CC. Who in their right mind would claim to be Galbatorix THE MAIN VILLAIN, did he think he was going to catch claiming that?2A. Why didn’t he claim this immediately? He came out the gate saying his role was scummy but why not his character? You can say lack of theme knowledge but that’s not true is it? Based on his own description of his role it should be pretty clear his character is a villain so why didn’t he also say my “my role and character might come across as scummy”?2B. Why did he randomly decide that it his previous logic of CCing someone didn’t apply once I had guessed at his character (to another person btw, wasn’t even talking to him)? The way he claimed immediately after I called out his character seemed like an “oh fuck he guessed my character” move. I feel like he panicked in that moment and decided to rely on WIFOM to spin him claiming the antagonist being a good thing for him. The fact that it’s worked so well for him is a large indication of why this was probably a smart move on his part but the fact that so many people bought into it at first is also what raises red flags for me.
I think 1 is the strongest point here - the problem is that if Wylted has basically been forced to claim his true role if he's scum, then using his role in a pro-town way just wildly swings off the balance of the setup, given that a vanillaizer is a powerful role as both alignments - so it's hard to see what he would do other than using it on a town player.
I especially don't buy the whole cop aspect of it - in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if overnight, Wylted asked Pie if there's a cop in the game - DON'T FORGET that there's that ability in the game, so Wylted wouldn't actually be risking a CC. Given that Cerulean claimed Oracle and that there are still some people unclaimed, wouldn't be surprised if Pie just messed around with some untraditional roles this game - I know for sure that mine isn't, and a Prideful Townie is a new one for me as well.
Regarding 2A and 2B, I kinda feel Wylted wouldn't care about that regardless of his alignment, but it's definitely not towny.
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Cerulean's claim is neutral for me btw. I wouldn't exactly call it a weak investigative role, it actually seems pretty strong, but I can see him believing it isn't. I think the way he handled the claim is towny, especially since it felt like he wasn't really trying to self-preserve yesterday and accepting that he wasn't a huge loss for town.
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We planned it in scumchat, right down to the minute.
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Catchup notes:
I kinda townread Earth for dumb reasons, and that's that if he was scum, he obviously would know who the NK is and wouldn't derp like that.
I think Luna's conviction on Wylted feels really genuine, and I'd probs just have him as 100% town if Wylted flips scum, and pretty towny even if Wylted doesn't flip scum. He's going very hard on Wylted in a way that pretty clearly isn't theatre. Even if Wylted is town, then there's no reason for Luna to lead the charge instead of just letting Wylted bury himself.
I'm not really buying Wylted's responses: it feels like he's deliberately skirting around the issues with his behavior and daring people to challenge him on it.
whiteflame and Mharman both feel roughly fine, Cerulean's responses show some nuanced thought that I like.
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Hi, sorry, a bit tired today. I'm pretty skeptical of Wylted's role claim and the way he used it. I will keep an open mind, but it's really hard to see Wylted vanillaizing an unclaimed person rather than a negative utility role (assuming Earth is telling the truth) as coming from a legitimate town motivation.
ADOL feels pretty good so far, just on gut. His questions and lines of inquiry feel like they come from genuine curiosity, not the kind of filler questions or information instead of analysis I often see from newbscum.
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Cerulean not claiming despite time ticking down while also not actively scumhunting, doesn't make me comfortable. It's a strange lack of urgency considering we're heading towards what would be a mislynch from his pov if he's town.
Since he's been at L - 1, Cerulean has posted 4 times:
-Posted a wall of self-defense
-Explained why he isn't claiming
-Talked about mechanics/characters twice
It lacks the proactivity I would expect from a town Cerulean, at the very least I don't want to let him skate by throughout the day without so much as a claim. Barring that, I don't really scumread anyone else either.
VTL Cerulean
L - 1 WARNING
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