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For the record, I think Savant is lean town for his role, but I feel he's vastly overreacting to a single vote on him and it makes me uncomfortable.
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@Savant
My argument is more that you've been successful at lynching me in the past, which is not a battle I want to fight again, even if I'm on the right side of it. Townies get lynched all the time on day 1.
Yes, I've been successful at lynching you when you were scum. I haven't lynched you when you were town. Like, what even?
Well that was after I revealed my role, so you didn't have much of a choice but to come up with an explanation.
I mean, if I was scum, I would have made up an explanation to go with my vote. The reason I didn't here as a townie is that I wanted to see how you would respond. Your response speaks volumes.
Not a suspicious explanation at all...
See above.
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@Savant
Ok, so you got a reaction.
Yep. Your reaction to slight pressure was to immediately claim, OMGUS vote, and then attempt to lynch me based on the fact that I had previously caught you as scum.
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@Savant
1. Town protective roles can be on me tonight as long as they don't reveal themselves today. If I just said I was confirmable, I'd be a target for a night kill but the doctor or whoever wouldn't bother to protect me.2. The last time Austin accused me, I got lynched, and would likely have still gotten lynched if no one counterclaimed doctor. At this point I have no clue what will or won't make him scum read me, so better to stop the train early so we don't waste time. With this many votes, I'd have been forced to claim anyway and it would look more suspicious later.3. Austin needs to go. He's smart enough that the only explanation I can think of for this is that he's scum and knows I'm town. Didn't even bother to explain why he scum read me and wants me to do that work for him. He's been breadcrumbing this accusation from earlier in the day phase, and I think he just latched onto Wylted's train hoping that his last successful lynch of me would get him towncred.
1. There was no reason to claim yet though, the chance of you getting NKed is pretty low. If scum have a roleblocker or redirector or smth, then you have a 100% chance of getting faulty results now.
2. You were literally scum in that game. Like if your argument is that I lynch badly, that's a really bad example to give.
3. I already said I scumread you because I felt you were coasting on your early claim in a way that didn't feel genuine. I asked you why because I wanted to see whether your reaction was coming from an informed ("oh no I've been caught but he doesn't know that") or uninformed ("I'm being pushed for no reason") perspective.
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Savant, why would you claim though? You only had two votes and mine was literally just a reaction test.
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I scumread him because it looked like he was pretty much coasting on his "first to claim" thing which means close to nothing in terms of towncred imo yet apparently he thought it makes him unlynchable this DP? yea not rly sure where that comes from.
Also nice OMGUS.
unvote
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VTL Savant
Savant, in your own words, can you take a guess on why I'm scumreading you for that comment?
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@Savant
Not really following you here. That same logic applies to everyone (we all have claimed a limited set of roles) - how does that make you any less likely to be scum than random chance?
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@Casey_Risk
Alright. Anyway, since I view it as a negative utility role, I'm just going to come out and say that I'm the scapegoat. If there's a tie in voting at the end of a day where we vtnl, I get lynched.
Somehow missed this earlier. Although I can understand why you did this, I advise you not to do it in the future. Claiming a SOP role will always lead to measurable harm for town because it narrows the POE for scum to fire in.
You have to weigh whether the benefit town gets from knowing the SOP is greater than this. I don't really think that's the case with this particular role, since if town is really so divided that we can't agree to a lynch after an entire day of discussion, then it's better to have a negative utility role eliminated for POE.
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@WyIted
Alright fuck itVYL Savantfor using contribed logic like Tuf pointed out.Thats all I need. This guy is really good at logic, so no excuse. In another thread he pointed out a flaw in my logic by pointing out that bodies falling out of sky scrapers have the potential to hit people on the ground, and here he knows pie has only molded like 12 games and is confused about why he would use 3 similar sounding games despite knowing pie has a very narrow pool of games to pull from.
I was sussing Savant earlier for this but idk rly. It seems a bit contrived but I also think town is more likely to just put their thoughts out there whether good or bad.
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I just checked and the missing ones are Bakugan Brawlers, Heroes of Olympus, and Mahabharata. The latter two are expected, since Pie probably didn't want to reuse any recent roles. The former is possibly in the game but wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.
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I honestly think we're all overestimating the chance of scum fakeclaiming here tbh. Like can anyone tell me what would be the benefit of doing so as compared to scum just claiming their real game?
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@Savant
I guess I can kind of see why you'd find that weird, but I don't really buy it. You'd have to assume that Casey went for the harder option of fakeclaiming, but chose a fakeclaim that would make themself look more suspicious than necessary.
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@Lunatic
Why is that? I generally have the same paranoia with whiteflame, because I feel he plays similar as either affiliation for the most part.
I feel Savant doesn't really towntell at all (the subtle things that can't really be described - like sometimes you look at a post with no game-advancing information yet you *know* it comes from town). Not really his fault but I always tend to view players who don't towntell as slightly scummy by default, which forces me to manually overcorrect.
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I'm feel vaguely unsettled so far because I have a slight townread on everyone except Savant, who I scumread even in games where he's town.
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@Lunatic
Lol which is why you were frustrating me in that game because you were scumreading me, but also calling out who I should be protecting each night lol. I felt like if I didn't follow who you were telling me to protect, we would just keep having the same argument about my intentions etc, meanwhile whiteflame knew he never had to worry about a doctor protection and could roleblock the other power roles freely lmao.Case in point, we probably shouldn't tell the mafia who we are targeting unless we are using it to WIFOM or bait out actions. Or maybe I shouldn't have listed to your suggestions and just done whatever anyway lol. I am at fault for that too.
Ye that was not my best game in hindsight. imo I think everyone should just make their own judgement and only out their role if it's LYLO or they have an investigative result.
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@Lunatic
I think as far as spilling town information goes, we generally agree with each other. I'd rather not have an excess of actual claims coming out dp1 either, based on the POE it gives mafia to work with if they are all town claims for example. I think Dart has developed a bad habit of pushing many claims early. It has worked a few times, because mods have a tendency to make townies overly confirmable, but not every game is going to be like that, and we can see a few cases where this has bit town in the butt.
I agree on that lol. I think in Mahabharata a plan which involved every townie working together got defeated just by WF's roleblocker. I feel like Pie designs his games well enough that a massclaim won't bring significant benefit.
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@Lunatic
The only way someone who claimed early could be scum, is if they gambled on a 15% chance dice roll and happened to be correct. Which isn't entirely impossible, but very risky, and very unlikely.
Or they could have just claimed their actual game, right?
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@Lunatic
I'm referring to leaving things at just a charclaim rather than getting into more specific roleclaims (which was my initial idea to try and break the game)
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@Lunatic
Can you explain exactly why you think claiming early makes someone more likely to be town? Not really understanding it here.
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I also don't really think that claiming a game early is alignment indicative at all. Since no particular game is inherently superior in terms of fakeclaims for scum (since they don't know our town roles yet), then I don't actually see a motivation for them to fakeclaim a different game.
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Yeah I checked Pie's games and I don't really think a massclaim will benefit us much here, he's always included some sort of roleblocker role or something. I think it's best just to leave claims here.
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I'm trying to figure out a breaking strategy for this, I feel there has to be something in between a gameclaim and a fullclaim that could allow us to force an early CC. Maybe forcing players to specify whether their role is common or not? And forcing the common roles to claim?
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@Lunatic
please claim your characters asap.
Are you asking for a fullclaim or the game?
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Wylted dmed me saying he’s gonna play. Oro is trolling
Time to look through Pie's setups to see if he's ever put a Daycop.
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Two third parties is pretty scumsided lol. Even if they don't explicitly side with scum they still distract town from it's main wincon (Moozer is a condemner, Savant is a pseudo-one since he needs to lynch someone to save them). Also Luna you're a troll for putting Ninja in with Tracker and Motion Detector lol. Seer is an interesting role for sure but very swingy.
Sorry for being inactive DP1 although I'm still mildly annoyed that you guys think I would coast like this as scum, I have a pretty wide range in terms of playstyle but I never lurk as either alignment without RL circumstances.
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Yea sorry this one is totally on me. It's been pretty rough but I shouldn't have signed up for this game knowing that I was gonna be busy all weekend
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Sorry I've been having a really rough few days. Catching up now. Don't hammer pls
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im fine with getting barney and earth to claim because their behavior is always various shades of null
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I'm kinda cooked from studying but I'm here and alive
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It's finals week at school for me so gonna be kinda busy, but I'll try to check in often. Townlean on Casey, Moozer, and Barney for not listening to directions by Pie.
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@ILikePie5
You know, Austin reminds me a lot of Speed
Thank you, but sadly I roll town too often for my liking.
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@whiteflame
The fact that he used his role on you was confusing, but not obviously scummy
I thought it was reasonable enough. You and Luna were obviously targets, Casey a PGO, I needed to scumread Barney, and I was pretending I hadn't read the last few pages of DP2 so I could say I thought BK spewed Joe as scum.
The long and detailed explanation of why Barney was scummy came off as way too much for something that was relatively obvious and that Barney had already admitted to doing.
Tbh I was gambling that Casey and Joe would buy it and that Luna would be too busy at work lol.
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Oh yeah, also the cc. Town should be ashamed of not settling that one before mylo.
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@Lunatic
I mean we probably could have figured it out ourselves (except maybe the king guy) but yea, a bit unusual.
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Very townsided but I can see where moozer tried to balance. We got kinda lucky with this one, especially with overlapping roleblock. Town needs work tho.
-Earth forced to claim after sus behavior
-town forgets to lynch
-bk solves, trolls, then Luna yeets him
-barney yeets himself with assistance from Casey
Yeah...
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VTL Barney
You had a good run. Maybe your scum partner might have a chance tomorrow, but I think we can figure it out.
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TLDR:
Barney claims his roleblock only works if he hits scum, yet both whiteflame and Korea were town and got roleblocked. Therefore:
Two scenarios are possible:
a. Scum also have a double roleblocker, this roleblocker roleblocked the exact same people as Barney did, and they were the actual cause of the roleblock while Barney's actions had no effect.
b. Barney is a scum double roleblocker.
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Alright. Here's why I think Barney is lying, bar an extraordinary coincidence (and if it is, we're doomed anyway). Wallpost incoming.
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Evidence:
I’m the Mafia Roleblocker.Each night I may target two players to potentially be roleblocked. They are only role blocked if mafia.
I can only roleblock scum+I targeted whiteflame and Best.Korea+Whiteflame and best both reported being roleblocked
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Why Barney is probably just lying:
1. whiteflame is flipped town. Therefore, he was telling the truth about being roleblocked
2. Korea is flipped town. Therefore, he was telling the truth about being roleblocked.
3. No one else got roleblocked. (I checked with Moozer, and he said that my target dying can also cause an unsuccessful action, which is what likely happened)
So far, so good. Take a look at Barney's claim:
4. Barney claims his roleblock ONLY works if he targets scum. He claimed this twice, so no excuses about misreading the role.
5. Neither whiteflame or Korea was scum, yet both were roleblocked.
So two scenarios are possible:
a. Scum also have a double roleblocker, this roleblocker roleblocked the exact same people as Barney did, and they were the actual cause of the roleblock while Barney's actions had no effect.
b. Barney is a scum double roleblocker.
I suppose if you do enough mental gymnastics you can come to the conclusion of a, although I'd love to watch. But b is almost certainly the case here.
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Why did he do this?
Why did he do this?
First, he needed to kill Earth - an investigative role is incredible utility with several protective roles alive. With whiteflame and Korea being the only claimed protective roles, it's obvious that the only way he would kill Earth is by roleblocking them.
Second, to line up two mislynches. Notice his exact wording:
either whiteflame or Best.Korea is guilty [and the other isn't] - BARNEY
Under this logic, he could lynch either of them. And when they flipped innocent, he could claim it makes the other scum. Everything went off without a hitch, except he didn't expect whiteflame dying tonight. Notice that if whiteflame was alive, then Barney could conveniently win the game by mislynching him in MYLO.
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Additional evidence
There are however limits. The NK itself is only blocked if I target both scum, otherwise I just block their role power. I do not get told if I hit scum, nor even if my power worked at all.
Barney apparently gets his own role confused. If he only blocks scum, yet he believes that he only hit one scum, why doesn't he see the issue with both whiteflame and Korea being blocked?
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POE
One scum is between Joe and Savant. That leaves Casey, Luna, me, and Barney. Luna is cleared, I'm cleared, and while Casey isn't cleared, I've been generally townreading them. Barney is guilty as sin.
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