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think the team is Barney and Joebob/Savant. will explain when i get out of class
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Ok I'm really confused now, I thought we had the game solved with Korea and Joe. Rereading DP2 rn.
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@Barney
BK was unfortunately innocent, as was whiteflame.
?? I only read up until the point where BK confessed since I figured he'd just be messing around in thread afterward
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Ok I think that Korea spewed Joe as scum last DP. Notice how Korea attacked everyone except Joe. Might be his scumbuddy
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I'd have preferred if you let town decide first, but it's not a big deal I suppose if you chose who I think you did.
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@Lunatic
Just checked in on this thread before going to bed. Who did you choose? Gonna bother me all night if I don't know lol
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@Lunatic
I haven't read into the Austin V whiteflame thing yet, beyond kind of skimming it. But austins aggression feels very similar to both invincible and mahabarata. Chances are he is town, I think he was a bit more conservative as scum if I remember from pie's previous game where he was scum.
I generally dislike meta because good players (not me :< ) can easily play the same as both alignments. That being said, yes, I do tend to play very passively as scum and aggressively as town.
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@whiteflame
Had some time to think over it during dinner. I think given BK's arguments so far, I just can't square him being town. Beyond his claim and some mod psyche, he's been absolutely sabotaging town with some of the worst logic I've ever seen typed on a screen. Meanwhile, the last scum is very likely between Savant and Joebob barring atrocious setup design.
With that said, whiteflame, I think I owe you an apology. I clearly went too far in DP1, and with my current belief that you're more likely town than scum, it was really just unjustified aggression from me.
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@whiteflame
Ok but can we talk about BK's goddamn atrocious behavior for a sec? Completely ignoring arguments, admitting to doing so but not caring, and attempting to lynch a confirmable player? Like wtf?
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@Savant
What??
I'm not really sure either. Just to be clear, I still see you as potential scum (or maybe verified scum after Joe flips), but BK is acting insane right now.
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@Best.Korea
So...
You ignore me asking why Joebob is town...
Then try and lynch Savant despite me pointing out behavioral reads..
Then try and lynch me despite me claiming a confirmable role...
and hop all over the place to get whatever lynch you can get...
but sure, you've "outed scum".
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Now I know how Luna felt last game. If BK was a supersaint I'd be hammering him right now
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@Best.Korea
Alright, we will lynch you after we lynch Savant and if he turns out to be scum. Does that work for you?
I literally having a confirmable role ffs. Literally ridiculous that we're letting you coast on your role to lead mislynches with zero reasoning beyond "trust me bro" whatsoever.
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Its 100% chance for getting scum in next two lynches. 100% is good enough.
Great, then why not Joe first? If he's more likely than Savant, then we potentially avoid a mislynch. The fact you keep avoiding this is extremely suspicious. and just to make it clear, I'm behaviorally townreading Savant on much of the stuff he's done this DP and the last one. Scum simply don't stick their necks out like this and attract attention without reason. It reads like a genuine attempt to solve the game.
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I dont really need to respond to every point you make. I already told you that I dont care much about in which order we lynch. Like, it barely matters. However, casey obviously isnt a lynch, and lynching joe now would be horrible play. Lynching Savant means we either lynch scum either confirm scum.
This is so bad I literally can't treat BK as confirmed town anymore. He notes my points on Joebob, then deliberately decides not to respond to them. He also asserts (without any reasoning) that lynching Joe would be horrible play. Like... what?
Notice how he's basically pushed every living player but has refused to elaborate on why not Joe. Does no one find this weird in the slightest?
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@Best.Korea
This is getting really concerning. Without responding to any of my previously raised points about behavior, you decided to just lynch Savant. You've jumped from whiteflame to me to Savant this DP (although interestingly enough, not Joebob). Seriously, if you're town, you need to think about what you're doing.
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Wait imagine if Joebob and Savant were the scumteam lol. Actual big brain move if that was the case
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@Savant
I view it as a pretty strong CC, but curiously enough, neither you or Joebob seem to view it that way.
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@whiteflame
Can you name a single contribution Joebob has made this game other than the CC? This is exactly how he played in Battlebots Mafia, just lurking and occasionally making a fluffpost or sheepvote.
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@Barney
Have to agree there. I'm very uncomfortable with BK's behavior here, flip flopping left and right on lynches. He also hasn't responded to my question about why Joebob has to be town... quite convenient.
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@Barney
In case a lynch happens while I'm at dinner, I did some calculations and I can promise (to like 95% certainty) that either Whiteflame or Best.Korea are scum, and with 100% certainty that the other is town.
Smh, in school we need to show our work for full credit
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@Barney
Do you have any thoughts on who to lynch today? Seems like we're struggling to agree...
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@Best.Korea
I will admit that Austin tunneling whiteflame in dp1 so much, and now retreating and refusing to lynch once whiteflame is getting votes on himself, I think it does give some behavioral reads. This could be a scumslip, because austin basically was completely certain that whiteflame is scum, and now goes the other way on very weak reasons.
If I was scum and whiteflame was town, I would be attacking the heck out of whiteflame right now to try and force a mislynch. I'm backing off him a bit because I reread the first DP and didn't feel so confident in my inital reasons for sussing him. If you don't believe me, then can you explain what benefit it could possibly give me as scum to reconsider my reads?
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@Best.Korea
If you don't believe me, I can message you tonight btw, assuming nothing goes awry.
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@Best.Korea
I'm still confused on why you think Joebob is town. He's barely contributed at all and has basically been coasting on his claim (which I've already sussed). In contrast, Savant has been very vocal - like I can assure you that newb scum don't advocate opinions in the way that Savant has been doing here. Right or wrong, he hasn't been afraid to draw attention on himself.
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@Best.Korea
??? You're forgetting my role is literally CONFIRMABLE because I can send messages. I don't know how you can expect a higher level of confirmation than that.
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I think the argument between Savant and WF is silly tbh. You can argue over policy all you want, but let's focus on winning the current game.
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btw, not sure why I'm being lumped as a protective role. As I already mentioned, I can't save anyone from the mafia kill.
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I think BK's logic is theroretically sound, but we need to take a holistic approach with behavior as well.
I'm still skeptical of Joe's claim, especially given that Savant has been consistently contributing to town (sometimes wrong, sometimes right, but still putting his opinions out there) while I can't remember a single substantive contribution of Joe so far. I mean, Joe literally dropped in this DP, made one post, then dipped.
I also find whiteflame scummy (albeit not as scummy as I did last DP) in terms of behavior, and his claim, while valid by itself, is also a partial CC in terms of being a protective role.
Imo the ideal lynch order here is to lynch Joebob. If he flips scum, then lynch whiteflame and Casey in that order. If he flips innocent, then lynch Savant and whiteflame. I think this is pretty much solvable, unless either Moozer messed up and put two near-identical roles in the game, or the team is Casey and Barney (not impossible, but not likely).
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@Savant
How is lying about your role not anti-town? Otherwise, scum could just claim they lied about their role whenever they are counterclaimed.
I think this is an oversimplistic view of things. There's a huge difference between the two situations. In the one you just mentioned, there would be no good reason for a town player to out a CC and cause mass confusion. In whiteflame's case, there was no risk whatsoever of this, since he was still a Bodyguard, just a modified one. I can also see a clear benefit: avoiding a redirector or similar visit-tampering role, which we've seen repeatedly in the last few games.
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@Savant
I'm honestly a little bit more hesitant of lynching whiteflame than I was yesterday. I had a chance to go back and reread the DP, and his behavior wasn't as egregious as I thought it to be at the time.
I don't view whiteflame lying about his role (assuming that is his role) as being necessarily scummy. There are good reasons to lie as town, and covering night actions then claiming the truth afterward is an acceptable situation imo.
I get what you're saying about the pseudo-CC stuff, but I believe BK and I know that my action was unsuccessful (I'm still waiting for a response to Moozer on whether my target dying would give that message). That leaves whiteflame, but I don't really see the benefit for him claiming this.
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@whiteflame
And that leads me to two, my role is a bit different from what I claimed in DP1. I claimed BG in the hopes that scum would try to manipulate my role (e.g. redirect me). It’s not quite the same as a BG. The way it works, as Moozer has explained it to me, is by automatically redirecting the NK to me. I don’t move, I don’t pick a target. So that role can only be manipulated by RB, at least as far as I can tell based on my questions for Moozer.
Alright... I can understand the logic for not claiming your real role. With that in mind, I could see it being plausible that scum were given extra ways to monkey with night actions. Still, that level of protection (combined with other protective roles claimed) makes me pretty uncomfortable.
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@whiteflame
Did Moozer specifically say that you were roleblocked or did he say you were unsuccessful in using it? Because Earth died. You would be unsuccessful in delivering a message to him by virtue of the NK.
He said I was unsuccessful. I assumed a roleblock since I figured the other part of my role (the redirect negative actions) would still function even if Earth was the NK target. Anyway, it's a bit of a moot point, since he'd be dead regardless.
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I targeted Earth last night, btw. He was mostly confirmed by virtue of his role, and the utility part of my role would allow me to redirect roleblocks or such off of him.
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@Best.Korea
That's odd... because I was also roleblocked last night. I guess I'll have to trust you in view of your role, but scum having multiple roleblockers would be very strange.
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@whiteflame
For what it's worth, I don't think Chris is scum, so it might be for the best since that was the only option that enough people were considering to get a lynch.
At least we're in agreement in that regard. Their claim and behavior doesn't really square up with newbie scum for me.
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Also smh y'all need to learn what "confirmable" is. Luna's role is confirmable. Literally no one else's role so far is confirmable, although BK gets away with it through setup analysis and mod psyche.
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@Earth
If you're not going to go for Casey or Savant, then who do you want to lynch today?
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Anyway, the messaging aspect is why I repeatedly stated my role is very confirmable. I'm fine with any likely town-confirmed player requesting me to visit them tonight.
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@Earth
My role is confirmable, but fine I guess. Since I serve as an advisor and protector to Link, I am the Guide (I asked Moozer where he got that role from, he said he made it up himself from some other roles). Each night, I can message with another user for the duration of the night. In addition, any negative actions performed on them will be redirected to me. (this does not include mafia kills, according to Moozer, hence my early clarification).
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Anyway I guess people are dead set on not seriously considering whiteflame as scum, which is frustrating to say the least. This isn't over by any means, but I'm willing to take it to tomorrow.
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@Earth
Do you have anything substantive to contribute - at the very least, who do you want to lynch today? Popping in to state the obvious is not super helpful for us.
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@JoeBob
I don't think Earth is the way to go today. He's our only claimed investigative role with no CCs.
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@Best.Korea
Mod was warned in previous game about how 3 protective roles is a bit much, so I dont see why would he choose to increase them to 4 this game. It doesnt add up.
So 2 protective roles (Doctor + Bleeder/Bulletproof) makes sense. Bodyguard is the outlier.
Also, I dont see why would whiteflame claim bodyguard after 2 protective roles were claimed and after he knew that doctor is likely in game. Maybe whiteflame misplayed as scum, but thats a very bad misplay from a very good player. I just dont see how would he make that misplay.
I've seen much worse. Barney (as scum) once claimed he bodyguarded me despite the fact I claimed I was untargetable by night actions. Reverse psychology just doesn't rly work imo.
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Why would there have to be 1 scum between whiteflame, Savant, and Joe?
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@Best.Korea
I think Casey is null at best and being anti-town through lack of activity, and I agree their claim isn't the best. In the absence of a superior lynch, I would have no problems going for them.
But whiteflame is being transparently scummy this DP. His behavior is so completely different from previous town games, and his argumentation so poor that I genuinely cannot believe he is town.
In other words, likely scum > possible scum.
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@Best.Korea
It was mostly just rhetoric, since my role will confirm me anyway. But seriously, why do you townread whiteflame?
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Like if we really can't decide on a lynch, I'm fine with Luna yeeting Casey if only so we can get this distraction out of the way. But it's frustrating that people are townreading whiteflame for what seems like no reason at all.
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