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@ILikePie5
I'm sorry it looks like im parroting you hard but my school just has slow wifi so i cant refresh very often.
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@JoeBob
He did the same thing last game and was innocent, so it was pretty easy to tell he was innocent.
If you knew he was innocent, why did you vote him?
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@WyIted
I am vanilla and undertales. Because th dude in undertales does not finish off the bad guys or his enemies or whatever he doesn't actually ever truly use his powers
This is weird... but not entirely implausible. I'm going to go through Mharman's old setups to see if he's likely to pull this kind of sarcastic justification.
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@Best.Korea
I also wanted you to claim, but do not claim before wylted.
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If both BK and Wylted are still on 2/4, I'm not going to vote either, since I'm worried that JoeBob might quickhammer. I do want to keep pressure though.
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@WyIted
You lynched an innocent person my dude. Single handedly at that. WTF?
You have very little ground to stand on when you encouraged him to do it. What are you trying to pull here?
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@Greyparrot
I am curious to hear from you. Why do you scumread Wylted? You haven't talked much yet.
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@WyIted
whiteflame is the most experienced player along with you and Pie. Barring any softclaims from other people, he would be the obvious choice.
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@WyIted
"I was trying to encourage a hammer. I am not a patient player and my fear is usually that we have scum in the noose and then we have a town player or 2 that get sucked into their bullshit and thy wriggle free."
I'm calling BS on this. This is not MYLO, this is literally the first DP where the scum players have the least flexibility when it comes to their day actions, because it can come back to bite them later. Hammering 7k early harms no one but town.
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I never blame town for their own mislynch, but 7k is the exception. It wasn't a noob slip it was him acting scummy, maybe intentionally.
How was it intentionally acting scummy? Acting dumb does not equal being scum. At the very least, we should have prodded him more about why he softclaimed a power role. Maybe it was for attention; maybe it was to provoke scum; maybe we would have known if we waited for another minute.
If you read through that DP and didn't get surprised at the flip than I am going to not be able to take you seriously.
Ofc I was surprised at the flip, but you seem to be deflecting.
I will also say if you were online after he claimed a role too powerful to claim that is definitely active and then claimed vanilla and also where he lightly claimed mafia straight out it would be very suspicious if you didn't rush the lynch.
I wasn't online at the time, but even if I was, I wouldn't have rushed the lynch.
Also if BK is not on Your scum list right now, that is suspicious.
I would be inclined to say he's being too scummy to be scum, if you buy that sort of logic. I'm not opposed to getting a claim out of him, though.
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@Best.Korea
Play to your goddamn win condition. If you're town, stop throwing. If you're scum, stop throwing.
Please explain, with some logic, however slight, why we should vote Pie.
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@Best.Korea
Please explain, with some logic, however slight, why we should vote Pie.
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Yeah, reading carefully over the last DP, I would FOS Wylted slightly. Just some things I noted:
-"If I am him I go completely silent as a stalling tactic upon hearing this. [WYLTED]" - Post 100. Doesn't this seem kind of weird? In what world would 7k be able to stall out the remaining two and a half days of the DP? Seems like Wylted is trying to subtly encourage someone to hammer him before people consider 7k's claim more carefully.
-"Bro it sucks to get so little game time in but go ahead and hammer him. [WYLTED]" - Post 90. Simultaneously complaining about something harmful to town while also not doing anything about it seems to be a pretty classic scumtell to me.
-He also refers to scum in the 3rd-person POV a little bit too often for my liking, like he's trying to distance himself.
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Doesn´t look like there´s much to catch up on, just BK being weird. I´ll give my reads in a sec.
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Really, I come back from school to find 7k speedlynched. Currently catching up.
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I do hope it's not in bad form to immortalize a massacre, but after some thought, I figured I might as well go with this. It has a bit of everything: philosophy, creativity, competence and lack thereof. It also holds some historical value as the conclusion of the Tejretics tourney.
And this excellent and delightfully controversial debate as well:
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@7000series
This is exactly what got you lynched last game. And also, reads mean nothing without having at least some basic reasoning (however slight) to convince others of them.
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@whiteflame
Good to see you too. I haven't been that active for a reason - I'm planning to use this website as practice in-between debate tournaments, but I have one coming up in about 2 weeks, so I've been mostly preparing for that. I do plan to start a Section 230 repeal debate sometime, since I have reams and reams of research left over from that January PF topic.
And yes, I do plan to be reasonably active in this game.
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@WyIted
I generally don't write in a very structured way - I simply think of the most convincing points, then find a way to include as many as possible in a debate. So my process might look like this:
1. Analyze the topic from a debater's point of view - are there any obvious solutions? Loopholes? Weak points?
2. Analyze the topic from a potential voter's point of view - what would I need to show to convince a potential voter who knows nothing about the topic? Do some potential arguments require excessive exposition?
3. Outline potential arguments - make a list of things I could argue.
4. Rough research - Google around for a bit. If I can't find a significant amount of reliable sources in favor of my argument, then I'll drop it.
5. Draft potential arguments - write random argumentative crap. Usually filled with excessive amounts of commas, dashes, and condescension, because that's my usual writing style.
6. Add in sources - Go through all the claims which obviously need some sort of source, then put in the first source I find. I usually don't worry too much about the reliability of the sources if it's a claim that can't really be objected to.
7. Add in definitions, burdens, topic analysis - Unlike some other people, I think they're nice to have, but not really essential. It's good for keeping the debate on track.
8. Edit and revise: Make everything neater, tone down the aggressiveness, keep things really clean. My guiding rule is that if I had 5 minutes to read the entire argument, could I elucidate the main points afterward?
9. Cut until I reach the character limit: I usually pay attention to the character limit, but not that much. Generally I try to keep it not over 10% over the character limit by the time I've finished step 7. At this point, I cut down fluff (usually conclusions or introductions are the first to go), look for opportunities for abbreviations, and remove extraneous analysis that I feel is implied by common sense.
10. Organize: Add in sections, sub-sections, bullet points, etc.
This whole process might take around 1 hour if I'm in a hurry, up to 5 hours if I'm trying really hard. Usually somewhere in the middle.
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@RationalMadman
Thanks a lot. I see how I could've played DP2 better in some ways. I personally don't think that DP3 would've changed anything given that he basically gave up already ("Yeah, I really got nothing"), but I'll try to be more patient in the future.
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@ILikePie5
^^^
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@RationalMadman
Eh, I was more annoyed that GP didn't try to defend himself at all, or even explain some of his actions during DP2. To me, just "giving up" seems like something that an outed scummie would do. In fairness, I don't think anything would've changed by that point, the fact that Pie could've withdrawn his vote during DP2 sorta convinced me he wasn't scum.
Since I'm genuinely looking for feedback, what could I have done better?
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@ILikePie5
Rip, well played. Greyparrot threw this for town.
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@ILikePie5
@WyIted
Eh, I can't really be 100% sure you're not scum, but I doubt anything would change my mind at this point, considering how GP has basically given up. Plus, if you were scum, you also could've just withdrawn your vote last DP.
VTL Greyparrot
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@Greyparrot
he seemed to have the same glitch of getting affiliation before getting a role
What do you mean by this? How is this not a blatant scumslip? Town only got a single message.
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@ILikePie5
No need to overthink it.
-RM immediately buddied GP in the first DP.
-RM and GP immediately voted you in as soon as the 2nd DP started.
-RM and GP were working together all DP2.
-If I was scum, all I needed to do was agree with RM and GP.
-If I was scum, all I needed to do was withdraw my vote right before the DP ended.
I'll refrain from voting for now to see if you have any objections, but it's pretty clear GP is the last scum.
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@ILikePie5
If RM and I were working together, then town would be screwed by now, since GP is clearly refusing to vote RM.
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@JoeBob
I'll try to keep it simple:
Joebob (you) are definitely clear because you claimed bodyguard, and no one else claimed.
I know that I am clear, leaving Pie, RM and GP.
RM and GP are definitely working together, as we can see throughout the thread.
Thus, there are only two options for the mafia: RM + GP or Pie. Since I know there are two mafia left, it has to be the former two.
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I'll vote for:
-blamonkey
-Ramshutu
-Wylted
All of them have undeniably changed the history of this site in some way.
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@RationalMadman
Also I'm not townreading Pie, it's just POE + the fact that you and GP are clearly allied.
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Ok I don't have much time to post right now but I will try to acknowledge a few things:
-RM is acting like I'm 100% sure that he's scum. I am not. However, he has a much higher probability to be scum than anyone else. Consider it from my POV, using POE:
Out of Pie, RM and GP, two have to be scum. The only combination that would exclude RM as scum is Pie and GP, but that's highly unlikely, considering RM and GP are clearly working together to some extent.
-RM is going after me using some seriously incoherent logic.
E.g he says I "scumslipped" by saying that GP claimed vanilla when THATS LITERALLY WHAT GP DID in the first few posts of the game.
He also claims that making a reasonable guess about role PM's is somehow evidence of me (or pie) being scum. Like, what? That's literally how it works in every game where the mod is somewhat competent.
-RM is focussing on saving himself over actually scumhunting.
He claims that Pie and GP could be working together, and that I'm trying to distract people from that possibility. Notice the flaw there? It requires THREE scum. This is pretty clear evidence that he's not actually focussing on who's scum. He's coming up with theories when it's convenient: when I point out he might be working with GP, then suddenly GP is scum. When I pressure him with Pie, then suddenly Pie is scum. And somehow, a Pie + GP + me team is suddenly possible?
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I will be busy for most of tomorrow, but I will try to check in every few hours. Don't do anything stupid while I'm gone
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@JoeBob
I know there's evidence for both sides, but I seriously urge you to consider the relative convincingness. RM's entire post #171 is LITERALLY FLUFF.
He has a bunch of vague stuff and literally admits that "It's hard to find one specific post that's him [Pie] 'slipping'." Is this remotely convincing to you?
He also says that Pie scumslipped by tagging him to pressure 7k when he already voted 7k. Again, a trivial point that hardly outweighs the evidence against him.
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@RationalMadman
@JoeBob
That seals the deal for me. I realized that GP and Pie could be working together and GP could have said that in order to deflect suspicion off the pairing, but the fact that you haven't suspected him in the slightest makes me think that's not the case.
Joebob, see above.
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@RationalMadman
I just realized something, but need to confirm it real quick. Do you think GP is scum?
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"why are you remotely certain austin isn't mafia? Austin was the third vote on 7kseries day 1, the vote that really sealed the deal and got the day 'rolling'. Austin barely paid attentiont ot he game until right around 2-3 hours ago."
Funnily enough, the end of the school week for me was 2-3 hours ago. Coincidence? I think not!
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@JoeBob
It's actually a bit better than 66% btw, since there are three possibilities:
RM + GP
RM + Pie
GP + Pie
But since we know that GP + Pie (as well as RM + Pie) is impossible due to post #128, (where GP claims that he and RM have to be town together), than that leaves just the first possibility. Feel free to ask me if you see anything wrong with this logic.
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@JoeBob
It's actually a bit better than 66% btw, since there are three possibilities:
RM + GP
RM + Pie
GP + Pie
But since we know that GP + Pie (as well as RM + Pie) is impossible due to post #128, (where GP claims that he and RM have to be town together), than that leaves just the first possibility. Feel free to ask me if you see anything wrong with this logic.
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@ILikePie5
I don't entirely buy that, but I will say that rn I would say GP is like 80% scum and you're maybe 20%.
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Wait I just realized I deleted a double post b/c I forgot we're not supposed to delete, sorry about that
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@RationalMadman
"In all other websites I've ever played mafia at that's literally bannable like you get a permaban if you as a mod/host do that. I had no idea that happens."
??? It is universally considered terrible game design to allow Town to win through PM analysis. It completely defeats the purpose of mafia as a social deduction game.
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@JoeBob
Please see above. Also, consider that voting RM is the best choice, since the only way that we lose this if we do that is if Pie and Parrot are both scum. So how do we know that's not the case? Post #128.
No pressure or anything (lol) but there's clearly 2 teams here. Either me and RM are evil or we are both town with you. -[GREYPARROT]
Greyparrot would have absolutely no reason to do this if he was scum with pie, throwing his teammate under the bus is completely dumb when they could win instantly by forcing town to mislynch.
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@Greyparrot
Please explain why it is not possible for Pie and RM to be scum, btw.
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-First: mod PM thingie
RM has played enough games that he knows there is no way a reasonably competent mod (and Wylted may be many things, but he does have substantial mafia experience) wouldn't give a sample of town PM to scum, especially if requested. I legitimately think there's no way that RM would actually try to support this point if he was trying to help town (to the point of claiming that giving PM samples is "abusive" [post 52]).
(As a side note, this puts some suspicion on GP, but it could also just be WIFOM from RM so we'll see)
-Second: scumslip 1
Post 78 by RM:
. If you 100% know that Austin is scum then why did you vote Pie at the end? - [JOEBOB]at the end of what?I know it's Austin only after Austin claimed my role. - [RATIONALMADMAN]
Except even after I claimed my role, you didn't change your vote.
See post 42 (I claimed before this post btw):
My ego. I am voting you. - [RATIONALMADMAN]
So either you're voting Pie just to be petty, or you're trying not to draw my attention onto you. I think it's the latter.
-Third: scumslip 2:
Post #55:
"GP did not actually claim vanilla this entire game yet but I am sure in your mafia chat you have regarded him as a vanilla for a while now so you forgot to check that before posting this." - [RATIONALMADMAN]
Except... he literally did, at the beginning of the game, by saying "I do not know my role yet." Whether he realized it at the time or not, GP showed that he was vanilla. The fact that you somehow "forgot" about this after literally claiming that GP is confirmed townie all game is crazy.
This is deflection, pure and simple.
-Fourth (personal opinion)
RM has literally been panicking more and more throughout this day phase. You don't have to buy this, but his logic and posts have gotten less and less convincing. Call it a feeling or something, but that's just my take.
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