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@Vader
I DONT CARE about convincing people that I'm town. I literally said I'm fine being lynched tmrw.
I care about having an alignment check tonight via jailkeep.
Literally everything I've been doing this day has been to give town the best chance to win after my inevitable mislynch and I'm getting treated like crap for it.
It feels like you're misinterpreting my posts and I dunno if it's intentional or not and frankly at this point I'm just over it.
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My legacy is Wylted/Vader in that order.
I think both of them are good enough to recognize the value of getting off an alignment check tonight.
Gl.
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If you think I'm scum then just vote me and stop engaging with me. Seriously it's annoying af to be called scum to my face when I have put twice as much effort into this day as anyone else and am getting zero appreciation for those efforts whatsoever.
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@Savant
Lol at least give me the dignity of engaging me in good faith when I have put twice as much effort into this day phase as anyone else, have relentlessly been working to secure town the win after I flip, even though at this point I've done enough that any town loss is not at all on me.
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The fact that Vader is popping in with zero thoughts beyond wanting me lynched is not a good look btw when I flip town.
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If you're going to mislynch me at least do it in good faith please lmao.
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Lol nice "town slip." Also I think it is hammer.
I unvoted earlier by voting Wylted.
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I don't know if there is some kind of mechanic that gives scum way too much extra DP time. But at this point Austin has been moving the needle too much. It's pretty obvious he's trying to prevent himself from being lynched at some point. If he was truly town, he wouldn't fight this hard, knowing that we already have 1 mafia killed at this point.
And we need to kill two to win.
Resorting to something of the lines of (Wylted wants to hammer because of some insta win mechanic) just reeks of desperation at this point.
I didn't say this. This is a material misrepresentation of what I said, find where I said this.
As for him psuedo confirming, this is not true at all. There is so many ways that scum can set this up in the favor. Only scum are trying to buy themselves a DP.
OR MAYBE IM TOWN TRYING TO GET OFF A COP CHECK.
I don't care what anyone says. I think Austin is just panicking after going down in the lynch and needs to pull off a mislynch to try and shift blame off him. I did the same thing in Choose Your Roles when Savant RB'd me and try to stir it as Savant being a liar.
Yes, my master plan is to get myself lynched tomorrow.
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@Vader
The only reason I am reading Savant as town is because of my role and his role. Not because Austin JK'd him. The logic is flawed and this coming off as pretty desperate from Austin's part
Savant is mechanically cleared.
There's no possible way for him to have carried the kill.
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@Savant
It's a bona fide scum slip. There's no "if he flips town" or "if this isn't right", he KNOWS I flip town.
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@Savant
I promise to town read anybody who insta hammers here so don't be scared to do it
WAIT WYLTED JUST SCUM SLIPPED
IF IM SCUM THEN GAME ENDS WITH MY HAMMER
SO WHY IS HE TOWNREADING ANYONE WHO HAMMERS ME
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@Savant
Why don't I claim Governor.
I'd love to hear it.
I'm fine with being lynched but like you can't say that Wylted's logic is good lmao.
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I'm also going to point out that going by Wylted's absurd logic, he could just as easily be a recruiter who needs me to be lynched today in order to insta-win. It's symmetrical, any argument that applies to me also applies to him.
It's clearly not a genuine thought, and that's outing. If he's town who truly believes I'm scum, he'd be able to give a reason for it.
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@Savant
Will do that if I'm still alive, but I doubt I will be. Everyone else, if Austin is town, we owe him that much.
I appreciate it. Again, I don't care if we win the game today or tomorrow - it's all good.
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@WyIted
If I have a recruiting role, I claim Governor and ask to be tested.
I just shot down your argument in 30 seconds lmao.
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@Lunatic
@Vader
@whiteflame
@Casey_Risk
You can end the day whenever you want, but please:
-Listen to my townreads
-Listen to my confidence that Wylted is spewing nonsense to try and chain my and Luna's mislynch
Just be ready for my town flip, vote Wylted tomorrow, and we can all be happy in endgame, ok?
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@Savant
bet
if you don't lynch Wylted tomorrow I will never let you hear the end of it :D
VTL Austin
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Tag me if y'all need anything. I've said my piece, left my reads, and even offered a plan that makes zero sense as scum and guarantees an alignment check. I've more than done my part as town, and baiting the last scum isn't a bad trade either.
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Wylted is making up nonsense - consider that if I had a role that would somehow insta-win, then I would just claim a guilty or claim governor. He's flailing scum.
I'm probably not going to invest too much time into this now, his recent responses have made me pretty confident he's just the last scum going for the win. So even if y'all mislynch me today, it's not a huge deal. It's like, still mechanically optimal to get off the jailkeep check, but as long as y'all don't go crazy tmrw and not lynch Wylted, I'm fine.
VTL Wylted
I'll check in occasionally, but this is 100% scum. No experienced mafia player actually thinks there is a genuine chance that delaying somehow gives me the win here, and Wylted is experienced enough that he *knows* better as town.
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unvote
I still want Wylted, but if he flips town, remember that I have to be off-wagon so that I can't be roleblocked.
If he's scum then it's a moot point lol.
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Yeah ok if you saw me post all that and decide that there's zero downside to lynching someone who can mechanically clear or guilty someone tonight, while also not being roleblocked, then I have nothing else to say. If town loses I'm taking uhh..... 23% of the blame. Sounds about right.
I'm clearly playing to scum agenda by offering to be lynched tomorrow with zero resistance whatsoever. Because that's what scum does.
Ok I'm going to take a break lol.
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@Lunatic
I'm currently voting him lol.
Sorry, I wish I could put more effort into this, I'm just kinda tired walling back and forth to settle the basic mechanical point of "maybe if I'm not scum then letting me get 1 -shot strengthened cop check off is good play"
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@Savant
I mean, anyone we lynch could also be a town player that uses their role tonight. And targeting someone else this DP means we reveal more about our roles to scum, who have a role blocker.
Look you can't have it both ways.
If I'm scum, it doesn't matter how much info is leaked today, I'm getting lynched tomorrow.
If I'm town, there is NO ROLE that would somehow bring more utility than a 1-shot cop check that can't be roleblocked.
If you see a problem with my logic. Go for it. Otherwise, I'm not responsible for this town loss.
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If you're town, we're lynching you plus two other people.
Yes. Believe it or not, the order of lynches doesn't matter, except when it does.
I'd rather lynch those other two people later after we get another night to use our roles, know how they vote on you, have another DP of information, etc.
What information is there? This entire DP has gone in circles with everyone and their mother wanting me dead while I try to explain basic mechanical play. Not to mention that it's non-unique - y'all are going to have a night regardless, you already know who's voting where, you already know what's happening this DP. And speaking of night-actions, why not allow me to get a cop check off, especially if I'm scum, I've ALREADY said I'm willing to be lynched tomorrow?
Clearing a single other player doesn't do much imo, because scum can kill them as well as role block. They could RB you and kill me or any number of things. Then we used one of our lynches this day phase without much to go off of.
When you lynch me today and I flip town, then you'll have zero info tomorrow either.
Scum can't kill my clear because a. I'm not going to claim who I'm targeting until tmrw, and b. they can only kill one person at a time, if I clear someone tonight and another person claims commuter, then that's a mechanical lock as long as one more person is behaviorally clear (because that would allow my mislynch and then POE the scum down in final 3).
They can't roleblock me, as I already said.
I literally don't understand why you want me dead so badly when I have:
-The equivalent of a cop check
-I.e. a kill going off confirms my target as town, and a no-kill confirms a guilty
-While also being strengthened
And while I also have ZERO path to endgame because I've already said I'm fine with my lynch tomorrow after I out my result.
Again, if I'm scum, I'm gamethrowing. Keep that in mind.
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I'm LITERALLY not even playing to survive.
I'VE ALREADY SAID that I'm willing to be lynched tomorrow.
If I'm scum there's zero difference.
If I'm town, then in the "best-case" scenario where you lynch me, you're wasting a lynch anyway. The only thing that changes is the order of the lynches, and the fact that I get the equivalent of a cop check off tonight.
This is basic mechanics, y'all are lynching a one-shot strengthened cop, and I'm going to bang my head against a wall at the fact that town is very possibly going to lose this not because scum played well, but because y'all are impatient.
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@Savant
If you're town, we're lynching you plus two other people. I'd rather lynch those other two people later after we get another night to use our roles, know how they vote on you, have another DP of information, etc. Clearing a single other player doesn't do much imo, because scum can kill them as well as role block. They could RB you and kill me or any number of things. Then we used one of our lynches this day phase without much to go off of.
I voted Wylted to get momentum on the wagon. I can unvote later if town will just bloody listen to my plan that mechanically confirms someone tonight at zero cost, considering you're going to flip me sooner or later anyway.
If he flips scum, great. If he flips town, my action is guaranteed to succeed because of the factional perk, so I can't be roleblocked.
You're saying that we're wasting a lynch, GUESS WHAT you're going to waste a lynch anyway on mislynching me.
There is zero difference between lynching someone today and lynching me tomorrow, and the opposite.
Literally zero.
And I already explained the benefit of clearing a player. Scum can only kill one person per night, even if they kill you tonight that leaves a confirmed townie in F5 to lead the way, while otherwise there's none.
Not to mention we literally have another mechanical clear because we know there's a town commuter, meaning that scum literally can't kill people fast enough assuming I clear someone tonight who's not the commuter.
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@Savant
Let's play out this hypothetical where you're scum: Redirector could get you caught by the tracker. You wouldn't be able to confirm the rest, putting you under further suspicion. With jail keeper, you can at least "role confirm" and hope people go for more "unconfirmed" targets, and you can play the WIFOM game. So while JK runs the risk of being scummy, it's also the only claim that has a chance of getting you town read due to how it somewhat role confirms you and your apparent transparency up front. And you need to take that risk in hopes of getting out of PoE, because you're part of a narrow PoE and the only scum left.Also if the argument for your innocence is that you wouldn't do anything obvious as scum, then this role claim does nothing to improve your odds of being town. You could have already made the argument that "as scum, I'd never be obvious about defending Greyparrot." But you did defend him, which would be an obvious move for scum. Before you claimed, it was clear that if you were scum you were willing to take big risks.
I don't really want to defend myself, I'd rather focus on solving and get a result off at night and then set up town for a mechanical win in F3.
But ok.
I could have gotten townread with literally any other claim I listed there. The benefit of claiming a confirmable role there is close to zero, and it's something I'm clearly aware of given that in my past scum games, I have usually claimed a role that conveniently can't be confirmed and still gotten away for it.
Like ok, I get you want the game to be easy, but look at your own reasoning. It's circular, I can be scum because I can be scum. If you start with the assumption I'm town, then to no one's surprise, then I am town (because I wouldn't do that as scum, since I'm town). It's fundamentally meaningless.
Town overwhelmingly loses winning games because it's tempting to just try and go for the easy solution and get it over with, and when that easy solution flips town, then what do you do?
There's zero reason to not let me clear someone tonight if you think I'm scum anyway.
Like I genuinely don't see a downside.
I'm just baffled by how everyone's rushing to lynch me before I get the literal equivalent of a 1-shot cop check while also offering myself up to be lynched directly next DP.
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@Savant
I mean you could kill the claimed tracker, but supposing someone else comes up that you want to kill, then the tracker becomes a big inconvenience for you if you claim something other than JK or town role blocker.
Or I just fakeclaim something else and NK you if I'm scum?
Like the whole premise here is that I'm an extremely honest scum player who claims their true role type and true night actions for... some reason I suppose.
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@Savant
@WyIted
@Casey_Risk
If you're confident I'm scum then please explain how lynching me tomorrow instead of today, after I clear another person through jailkeep, harms town win chances.
This is mostly to Wylted.
Casey, you're probs town, but also please consider.
Same goes to Savant.
This is literally the best post d1-gamestate I have seen in 10 games or so, and if town loses it, it's not going to be because apparently we're all lazy enough to get the game over with and lynch one of the few roles capable of hardclearing someone at night.
As I said earlier: once I out my result, I will not fight my lynch at all tomorrow.
If I'm scum, I am literally gamethrowing right now.
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If you were town you literally wouldn't give a shit about being lynched because it just brings victory one step closer. - WYLTED
So your plan is to mislynch me and Luna back-to-back and then try to win F3.
I can't believe this perspective ever genuinely comes from a townie, there's zero care about making sure you're not misclearing someone, zero care about letting me get off a mechanical check, no consideration at all of anything I've been saying because you're just trying to push through a mislynch and then kill Luna afterwards for TMIing me or something.
VTL Wylted
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@WyIted
Your claim claim would only be completely safe if it's pretty much a CC of Pies, and you would have to claim today to have any chance of avoiding a lynch
And if I was scum, I take the risk of a claim bc it's obvious no one's going to like this one. I'm town claiming my real role here and that should be blatantly obvious.
You only cleared savant after literally everyone decided that he had to be town based on the role claim.
That's not guaranteed at all - and that aside, doesn't have to do with the point of a. why I claim this in the first place and b. why I clear another person tonight.
Post poning your lynch does nothing since it's either you or lunatic and if it's not you we lynch lunatic and it's game over
And if it's not lunatic?? I can't believe this is a real thought coming from you.
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Also consider if I was scum, I would have had 24 hours to craft a fakeclaim, not just 10 minutes like I just challenged myself to do.
So like.
This is WIFOM but it's also the "consider I wouldn't do this totally garbage play" form of WIFOM so you do need to question why I'd go for this play when I've shown I'm capable of like. not doing it.
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@Savant
What would you have claimed? You were under fire already.
Literally anything except that lmao. I struggle with some things as scum but fakeclaiming is not one of them. Just like, off the top of my head:
Matchmaking system: redirector bc pairs players with each other
Map objectives: bookie bc you get rewards if you successfully achieve a map objective
Shop system: inventor (this would be kinda tricky to fakeclaim but it's doable)
Reload system: motivator, modified version where you get extra shots as an x-shot role (this is probably the best one I just thought of)
Melee combat: delayed vigilante bc you need to wait and get close for a kill
See that's like five decent-looking fakeclaims in 10 minutes.
So if you still think I'm scum who's apparently atrocious enough to claim a roleblocking role as roleblocker while also pseudo-CCing the flipped town doc, then go for it lol.
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Anyway, just some more detailed thoughts:
I think Casey should always be clear. They started momentum on GP, softed a role that makes it less likely (cutting off possible fakeclaims), and didn't angle around the wagon that felt like they were trying to take credit.
Luna should also be clear - the angle of "it's not such a loss if GP is town anyway" is strongly uninformed of GP's alignment and is pretty much never a scum/scum read - a scum player would just go all in on scumreading GP in order to maximize the credit from the bus.
That aside, his progression on me today feels very real - there's no reason for him to go that hard on defending me today - while he might be buddying me, it's just a bad play when a lot of other people are criticizing his read - it's a net loss. His frustration with how his reads aren't being listened to, as well as his hesitance in regard to claim, is 100% genuine. If there's a read I want listened to after I die, it's this one.
Vader is a weaker read - it's partially for the claim, because I think that it's very risky to claim it so early without a guaranteed Tracker/Watcher. However, I just realized that if scum has a Ninja, it might actually be a safe claim.
So... this could be a misclear. He's felt pretty behaviorally towny otherwise, but I do note that he's one of only two people alive (along with WF) who weren't on GP, and WF was offering to hammer.
I'll revisit Vader later.
Going to WF - the towniest thing I think is him not hammering when he would have gotten a ton of credit for it, gotten a factional perk, and denied town a factional bonus. It's a small thing, but the impact is huge.
Outside of that, he's generally felt more engaged and interested in a way I associate with his town game.
Savant is mechanically clear. It's impossible for him to simultaneously know he was jailkept (because his action failed) while also having his kill go through.
Wylted has very little going for him other than voting GP DP1, and I don't like how casually he's pushing for my mislynch today.
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So:
Savant clear
Casey/Luna behaviorally clear
WF likely town, but for a small thing that could technically be fakable
Vader looks good for claim, but could be a misclear
Wylted is my main suspect
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@Vader
Why do I claim the action on Savant then.
Y'all are thinking through this from the perspective of "what does an honest scum player do."
Believe it or not I am not an honest scum player and I would've just claimed some other role instead of simultaneously clearing Savant while making myself look bad. I literally acknowledged in my claim that it was a semi-CC with Pie.
So yes if you think I claim a similar role as Pie knowing he already flipped, while clearing someone who could be mislynched down the line, while offering to clear another player tonight, while cutting off any path to endgame by literally saying it's the best play to lynch me tomorrow after I out my result:
Then lynch me today and hold the people on my wagon accountable tomorrow.
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Anyway, will be around later to solve - I do plan on leaving a good legacy, regardless of whether I get mislynched today or not.
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@Savant
I'm not sure why we'd random lynch someone else today. Why not... lynch a scummy person as usual?
Right now, we have seven people and 1 clear.
Tomorrow with my plan, we would have 5 people and 1 clear.
Tomorrow if you lynch me, you'd have 5 people and 0 clears.
Shrimple as that.
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@Savant
The logic here is simple.
If I'm scum, then there's no difference between lynching me today and lynching me tomorrow. There's only one scum left, game's going to end.
If I'm town, then I can mechanically clear someone tonight as long as my role is guaranteed to suceed.
As long as you scumread me, there's zero downside in letting me get another jailkeep off. If you think this is some WIFOM strat to live another day, then I'm saying right here, right now, that you can quote this post and I will not fight against my lynch tomorrow. At all.
That's really all I have to say.
As far as I'm concerned, you're clear, Casey and Luna are behaviorally clear, and in all likelihood, Vader is probs town. Town can afford my mislynch, but it can't afford to mislynch one of the few roles capable of mechanically confirming people as town before its gotten its full utility.
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I also don't claim this as scum, I'm not that bad at fakeclaiming ffs.
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I'm aware that I'm likely going to be lynched, but I am going to point out that if you let me live, I get one more jailkeep off. Assuming I stay off the wagon today, my action is guaranteed to succeed, which means if there's a kill tonight, then the person I jailkept is mechanically clear.
After that you can lynch me and watch me flip town, idc.
I've been kind of lazy this game but it's annoying to clear one person with my role and still be mislynched when I can clear another one tonight at no downside whatsoever.
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@Savant
If I was scum roleblocker, I wouldn't claim town jailkeeper, there are far better fakeclaims than that. Consider that scum could have roleblocked someone with a passive role, a role that didn't give feedback, or even have a redirector or deflector.
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@whiteflame
Is there a reason for this delay?
I was waiting for Savant's results, since if he said his action didn't fail, that would be fairly suspicious.
He's clear now and I claimed, so it's a moot point.
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Also - just to note - I used my jailkeeper offensively (i.e. as a roleblocker), which is pretty consistent with the philosophy I stated last game.
If I'm scum I have zero reason to:
-claim something similar to Pie when I'm known for being good at making up fakeclaims as scum, while experience has shown that honesty is the best policy as town
-clear Savant - yes, his claim is towny, but I'm basically boxing all of my possible late-game mislynches with my claim, especially if I jail another person tonight
And about yesterday:
If I'm scum, I either hard defend GP and go all-in on a mislynch, or I just bus him. It's atrocious play to defend a partner and then not follow through on it, because you get the worst of both worlds - you don't get credit, and you don't save your partner. I'm a good enough scum player to recognize that, and my GP read yesterday was just entirely uninformed.
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Savant already said his action failed.
Oh ok.
Savant is 100% town then, I jailkept him last night and there was still a kill. The fact that his action failed means he couldn't have roleblocked me or used a strongman.
I'm x2 Jailkeeper who targeted Savant last night.
I am Map Flow. This is how the map is designed in order to ensure the best gameplay during the match. Part of this is making sure that that PvP conflict doesn't occur too early. However, players will eventually fight at critical choke points and objectives. As such, I am the Jailkeeper, but limited only to two shots.
(I don't really understand the justification - I'm assuming the idea is that the map prevents players from shooting each other, thus roleblocking and protecting them at the same time? I don't play FPS games and this is the best I could get from paraphrasing my PM and asking Mharman for clarification.)
(I'm also aware of the semi-CC with Pie's claim - it is how it is, it's kinda annoying but I would have claimed something different as scum for sure).
My reasoning for targeting Savant was that:
Pie had hammered, and Mharman said that scum got a factional perk for hammering, so it might not be any use even if he was scum.
Luna and Casey were behaviorally clear.
Vader was towny and had a good claim.
So that left WF, Wylted, and Savant. Out of all of them, I thought WF was the towniest for not hammering. I decided Savant would be a better target because he frequently gets mislynched and as such it would bring the most utility to clear him.
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