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@Sir.Lancelot
At this point it feels like you're complaining that we picked the wrong guy, so should remove him from the team, and admit to the error.
I've and other mods have admitted we picked the wrong guy, he was removed from the team, and I have admitted it was an error; further I have even taken personal responsibility for said error.
Like if you were a cop, you'd be demanding I pull over again after I've already pulled over: https://youtu.be/N2q62lymKLI?si=iOB0iV-tlU5c7SCq&t=115
You specifically claimed my posts in this thread have given mixed signals:
Full clarification would help avoid unnecessary confusion. You're sending mixed signals here.
All of my recent posts can easily be skimmed at: https://www.debateart.com/members/Barney/forum-posts
To which, you're welcome to point to which of them gave you mixed signals. Suffice to say, I both disagree with the assessment, but still sought to clarify matters in my most recent post here.
To which, you're welcome to point to which of them gave you mixed signals. Suffice to say, I both disagree with the assessment, but still sought to clarify matters in my most recent post here.
...
Once more, the egg is on my face. With zero reservations I admit this.
Any future requests for me to admit this some more, I'll just be providing a link back to this post (assuming I respond at all).
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@Sir.Lancelot
I do find myself wondering. What were your feelings that led you to promote Adaptable, and what are your feelings after?
As long as I can remember, he has deeply wanted to be a moderator, and has repeatedly petitioned for this. He is probably more dedicated to this site than every other member put together. I have long desired to be able to pass the reigns to him, and had been suggesting that before he went away last time. While he and I fight plenty, and would not be surprised if he banned me first thing, I genuinely believe he wants what's best for the site (and yup, if that included a ban on me, so be it). I can both have issues with someone, and still respect them and wish good things upon them.
Adding to that, consider for a moment how long the active moderation team has just been whiteflame and I. Personally, I do not enjoy being a moderator; I do it to aid the community, and help prevent it from going the way of DDO. I strongly suspect it is the same for whiteflame. Right now it is pretty easy to look at this thread and be like: David's back, and he's in talks in Michael to take control of the site! But at the time, moderation was whiteflame and I, with increasingly rare guest appearances in the moderator chat. Plus, we are the first to hear about features gradually breaking, but lack sufficient authorizations to do anything about it.
Getting someone passionate about the site at the helm, to me is the best hope for the site... There was the risk of him being too passionate, but I believed the most likely rewards outweighed the most likely risks. This didn't work out, but I'll take a misstep over stagnation; even if it proved to be an embarrassing misstep for me.
I did not treat it as a joke. I literally manually deleted every conversation in my PMs to prepare this account for a new user. We also put the work into making a new and better organized discord server to replace the old one.
But yes, it did not work out. First there was a couple red flags, which made me second-guess the idea, and then there was a thread announcement which to me read as if he was going to ban all mafia players from this site (or at least any who mention lynching people). There had been no talks with the team leading up to this, just a massive power trip out of nowhere. That's when I gave up on the idea.
On one hand, it was your idea to make him a mod, but you chose to gatekeep certain perms, and the official title. Denying him even access to the chats.Implying you don't fully trust him.
I think it was David who suggested a phase in period when he came back of a title (which if we haven't used before, we should use in the future). But I would not call anything gatekeeping. We were merely not rushing everything on the first day as if it was a timed Olympic event. The moderation credentials had to go through an existing account because of Michael's absence, and it made logistical sense to give people a warning before ownership of my account was switched over. He was invited into the moderation discord chat, merely not the archive.
He has a thing about avatars, much like I have a thing about voting standards. While I don't understand his thing about avatars, I accept that most people don't understand why I'm so uptight about votes.
If chilling out and talking over proposed changes with rest of the team, most changes are easily workable, and could be accepted by the community if better presented.
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@Sir.Lancelot
What are your strongest beliefs currently?
Right now LA is on my mind...
I think masked protesters waving flags from other countries, ought to leave the USA (or you know, at least switch it to USA flags...). The rioters should of course be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Protesters who aid rioters should be punished as well (but to a lesser extent... Like when rioters tried an insurrection, I firmly believe their ringleaders should have been hanged, but people just swept up in the momentum who would otherwise not try to murder our elected leaders could be let off with just some outrageous amount of community service).
At the same time, I think all police involved in the unprovoked attacks on journalists ought to be sent to prison or mental institutions both for weapons crimes and for impersonating law enforcement (ok, that last bit is going into hyperbole), and those surrounding them along with their immediate superiors fired for failing to be police officers when they decided not to intervene against those deranged criminals. Further, the top level leadership which has allowed this to continue, should likewise suffer one or both penalties (given the history of this and lack of reform, it seems like they encouraged it).
Or areas of expertise you pride yourself on?
Really, the best from me is my unconventional analytical instincts. I see waste, and I try to fix it. Like you know those stupid questions on the payment devices at grocery stores? On the aggregate, those cost roughly 7 lives per day per stupid question, and that's just in the USA. When I was a combat medic, I massively improved the training standards, such that even while I was punished at the time, every medic which came to my unit after me had been taught to the standards I proposed.
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@AdaptableRatman
Case in point... That said, you are correct that it is not the only problem; which was not my intent to imply, but I can see how it could be fairly taken that way. I ought to have specified a major problem, instead of the problem.
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@jonrohith
There is no election for moderator positions, but we are openminded to feedback. The site used to have an elected position, but that turned out badly. That said, for some things we do hold referendums; since we're here to serve the community not rule it.
You've likely seen moderation get behind, and that is with a much better ratio than 1 to 100. The problem is this is a debate site, so active users like to argue.
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@Sir.Lancelot
I’d say Savant is better than me. Not to say I don’t have my moments, but the absolute best thing about my debates is my dedication to entertaining the audience; which is very nice and all, but doesn’t make me right or more logical (in fact, it has turned into unintended red herrings).
And damnit, now I am curious how many times I argued the anti-abortion side, if I did… One of my fundamental pieces of advice is to argue against your own beliefs to grow!
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I saw that one too! So true, like communism, the most absolute perfect system ever… Except for the whole No True Communism fallacy which needs to be applied every single time.
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@Greyparrot
I’m genuinely reminded of when I did a survey on 4th trimester abortions, being crystal clear it was speaking of hunting down lame adults for an ultra late-term abortion…
A few people did get that it was a joke, but so many people wanted to be fooled.
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@21Pilots
So what are some characteristics, or skills that a MOD should have?
IMO the most important two things IMO are a love for the site/community, and thick skin.
Something I should clarify for everyone is that the moderation team is actually quite chill. We have a discord server for logging and discussing any problems we consider worth writing down (some weeks I might ban a dozen spam bots, none of them get mentioned), but it's pretty informal. There's not even any real hierarchy inside it, no required uniforms, and certainly no secret meetings under the blood moon in which we engage in animal sacrifices to hasten the arrival of... I mean, yeah, we just hang out, share the occasional meme, and certainly do not summon any eldritch gods.
That said, even with recent issues, I still believe the moderation team could use some fresh blood.
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@LucyStarfire
Also, make me a moderator so I can enforce the true religion of Meowbahh here.
Meow has declared the religion to be Meowism, not simply their name, so automatic 6 month ban for sacrilege/catgenderriledge.
/joke
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I can't understand how you could see him as mentally well enough to do that.
I don’t believe him to be mentally unwell.
There is plenty he and so disagree on, but I don’t care about the wellbeing of this site even a quarter as much as he does.
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@AdaptableRatman
I am meant to be a mod. He treats me like I am not at all a mod and this is because David and Barney wanted me promoted, not him.
Small clarification: I wanted you as a mod, whiteflame supported that, and David coincidentally returned.
The timing of David’s return was AFAIK not connected.
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@AdaptableRatman
I asked on DM, now I ask here, can I post to threads the other makes, if I do not directly address the user?
It’s ok so long as it’s to engage with the topic, and not the user. Of course even then it should be handled with care (no baiting them, etc.)
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My opinion on this is oddly controversial…
We (men) lost when so many of us behaved so badly that the bear even seems like an option.
We (men) lost when so many of us behaved so badly that the bear even seems like an option.
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@AdaptableRatman
A big thing is the moderation team has mellowed out with time. I disagree with a lot of statements people make, but that doesn't mean they all need to be banned.
For one thing, every time we can someone (save for the bots), justifying it takes a lot of work. This isn't a fault in the system, but a feature. Last week I suggested banning someone because some of their behavior pissed me off, but another moderator started asking the logical questions about how long said behavior had been going on... That let me rethink it, and I was honestly in the wrong to jump to suggesting a ban. Sure, what they were doing to another member was childish, but it was such a short timespan that it was premature to consider banning them.
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While I'm not going to rush to update all prior pages, I have changed the use of symbols in the argument page template. They're now more intuitive to other (but less intuitive to me). https://debate.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Argument
Before it was ➕ for whomever initiates a contention, and ➖ for attacks against it.
Now is is ➕ for pro, ➖ for con.
Hopefully this will lead to an easier time with edit.
On wiki pages, it'll display something like this (and vice versa for con):
➕ Pro Argument Title: Statement supporting the affirmative.Supporting claim or explanation.➖ Con Rebuttal Title: Response challenging the above.Reasoned counterpoint or evidence.➕ Pro Defense Title: Counter-response to preserve the original.Further clarification or justification.➖ Con Second Rebuttal Title: Continuing challenge.Elaboration or deepened criticism.
Or in code form (each : at the start of al ine marks an indent):
:➖ '''Con Argument Title''': Statement supporting the negative.
:: Supporting claim or explanation.
::➕ '''Pro Rebuttal Title''': Response challenging the above.
::: Reasoned counterpoint or evidence.
:::➖ '''Con Defense Title''': Counter-response to preserve the original.
:::: Further clarification or justification.
::::➕ '''Pro Second Rebuttal Title''': Continuing challenge.
:::: Elaboration or deepened criticism.
...
Aside from that, there is a matter I could use a little feedback on... Not sure the best way to phrase this, but should the wiki discourage good arguments from bad application of social sciences via leaps of faith in the data? E.g., in a presidential debate, Hilary Clinton argued X (for the sake of argument, that any baby born under the full moon would be a werewolf, and thus must be aborted in the 4th trimester), but 28.55% of citizens still voted for her. Should pages making arguments on topics related to X, assume those 28.55% of Americans believe X just because they voted for a candidate running on said platform?
I'm conflicted on this because I'm a data scientist. It's unconventional to assume people vote for things they believe in, and even if they do, there's such problems as single issue voters, and of course the need to pick the on balance lesser of two evils. Yet, the outcome is still pretty compelling, and leads to great argument soundbites: 30% of Missouri voters agree that it's not rape if you get her pregnant! (yeah, actual thing... A candidate running on an anti-abortion platform proclaimed that, and people still voted for him... That's less scary when you consider only like half of the eligible voters voted, so like 15% of them... but that's still 15% of a state should shouldn't be allowed to breath the same oxygen as human beings).
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I am going to be pretty busy the next few days. I could fill in if really needed, but I'd be dead weight until probably DP3 (depending on how long they last). So I mean, if you need someone just to sit around and get lynched, sure, but otherwise it's probably best to keep waiting.
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@Savant
Without a doubt I've done that exact fallacy.
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I might be replacing someone (I don't know who yet).
If someone could give me a rundown on what's happened so far, and what claims are on the table, I would be most appreciative (in fact, if I chance upon a power role, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with it).
If someone could give me a rundown on what's happened so far, and what claims are on the table, I would be most appreciative (in fact, if I chance upon a power role, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with it).
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@whiteflame
Happy birthday! But as a reminder, the warranty on those cloned bodies expires at 40, so you may want to switch to a newer model.
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@Shila
As a reminder, replying to bots buries their posts. If replying to a bot, please report them also (I mean, report them either way, but it's more important if you're going to hide them).
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@7000series
lol, nor that. A friend designed some potential icons for moderators. I can't recall if anyone else used any, but I really liked them all and decided to use one. So it's more of an authority marker, than being skilled as such to be called 'king/queen'.
I'm like a B+ or A- tier when it comes to debating, solid at it, but not the best.
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@7000series
First, I wouldn't call myself king...
A tutorial could be useful for some, but it would be hard to design it right to be useful to most. There's also the problem that the people who are likely to care enough to use it, aren't the ones who really need it.
That said, I think a simple test to unlock voting would have been a good idea.
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GG all. And I love that PBO role!
I agree with Vader that hoping on Wylted's wagon wasn't telling at that point, as he literally confessed.
Wylted... Trying to explain away the trolling as part of the game did you in (that and ChatGPT errors). No one would have batted an eye had I done my intended fake claim of Miriam, as a funny obvious fake claim is an ingrained part of my MO DP1 (I didn't get around to making my lists).
Maybe this is wrong of me, but I wonder if these games should allow scum to swap with each other at the very start. Vader could have carried that role as it was meant to be used. I don't know if I've seen a popular scum before, and with inactive players that doubt would be incredibly effective.
That said, I'd rather have a fast game like this, than one with thousands of posts... As much as I'd even more prefer a middle option.
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@Lunatic
Damnit, I hate posting so much... Forgot to say that sorry I was being a jerk over it.
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@Lunatic
We both need some sleep.
And yeah, I do get when you meant, I have have a thing with absolute statements. I agree that it is far less likely with this theme than it would be for various others.
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@Vader
@That2User
@AustinL0926
@Savant
@Casey_Risk
See above.
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I apologize to my partner but chat GPT literally told me the captain fought by sypha and Trevor and was literally a major character.I will never trust AI again
Ok, he confessed! Lets end this.
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Barney (1/5): That2Casey (1/5): AustinWyIted (3/5): Luna, Barney, PieLuna (1/5): WyIted
Current vote count for anyone getting caught up. We need two more votes on Wylted to test his role (he claimed "popular" and that it takes one extra vote to lynch him). After that you can unvote and look elsewhere for scum.
Heck, if we get one more, Wylted can demonstate it himself with a quick vote then unvote.
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@Lunatic
You're missing the point, mods have a history of really stretching things to make the balance they want happen.
I'm also more of a mind that in case there is a cop, they should get a chance to investigate someone rather than outing themselves to save someone who still might be lying DP1.
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@Lunatic
Okay if I am grasping at straws tell me who you as mod would make a cop in this show and what the justification would be.
After the fall of Dracula, Trevor and Sypha seeks out where the monsters and find them where they are hiding...
ArchBishop (possibly as an insane cop) for finding those evil witches and burning them at the stake...
The Judge (makes way more sense as a PGO) for judging people so well, determining if they are innocent or not.
Yes, for any of these there are a dozen roles they would fit better as, but we've all seen mods make head scratching decisions, and I won't pretend they don't.
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@WyIted
it takes one extra vote to lynch me.
Have I missed something here? Easy to confirm.
VTL Wyited
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@ILikePie5
Thank you.
That character was played by Lance Reddick, which I can see whiteflame thinking highly of... But a single episode from season 3 (now I know which season I need to start watching again from), seems unlikely due to how minor.
Admittedly, I am torn between Wyited and Lunatic right now (the later really grasps at straws today, including implying because no character could be a cop when we've all seen some terrible justifications from mods to meet balance requirements).
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@WyIted
Which post did you reveal yourself to not be Isaac? And which character are you? I know it wasn't a hard claim, given the sequel show is admissible; but I would bet all of our minds went to Isaac.
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@Lunatic
@Vader
Would you each mind giving a summary of this exchange? I haven't had coffee yet, and am dealing with some distractions, so not as able to follow it as I would like
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@WyIted
it was silly to pretend like calling that out means you are saying she was faking being black
He literally claimed she didn't used to be black... Not that he could name even a single time she leaned in to the other half of her heritage, but that she only recently developed that black heritage (maybe gene therapy instead of plastic surgery, but the point stands).
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@Vader
Barney - I have an FoS on Barney. I think the fluff stuff obviously is old news and I've said him taking a stand and posting goes against what I've seen from town, but Barney also has adapted a bit to his game. I feel like his early posting and such are a way for him to draw town cred early on so that when he lurks or continues he could be passed down. Barney switched his meta quickly when I mentioned it and I feel like his new fluff posting could be way of combatting his old ways of lurking around
A bit too much wine. I guarantee my posts thus far would be the same regardless of affiliation.
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@WyIted
what do you mean I'm at L1? I'm just getting caught up on reading, and only one person has tagged me (two now with you).
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@ILikePie5
VTL Barney for full claim
I've already volunteered more than I was asked for. So no, I'm not going to help scum narrow down their NK.
DP2, if I have results to share, sure. DP1 when I'm not MIA, no.
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@WyIted
Like Peter Parker wasn't changed to black. Miles Morales is a completely independent character that stands on his own.
Plus Miles is bi-racial. They have a history of characters like that, Storm for example is very mixed (just has dark skin, so people fetishize her as an "African Queen" who should marry Black Panther... Who FYI is a shitbag racist (literally dumped her and claimed to have never consummated the marriage to her at all once he realized her race).
Due to poor educational standards, like half the country thinks bi-racial is a myth, and that Harris could not have been black the whole time, but got plastic surgery or something because Trump said so.
By standards not that long ago, I'd be considered by racial. I'm roughly half white, and half Irish (yes, not everywhere considered them to be not white, but it was a thing I'd readily compare to Hispanics today).
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@Vader
I feel like Barney usually has a lot of fluff in his games recently as town from what I've seen. It's when he flies under the radar and hops on wagons when he tends to be scummy fmpov. But he is aware as scum he tries to do a lot so idk?
I swear, the best compliment I ever got in this game was someone complaining that they couldn't behaviorally deduce which side I was on (I got the impression they believed in obeying some step by step rule list for how to behave with each role).
The fact is, a lot of my behavior will simply be based on my scheduling.
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@Lunatic
Hmmm… a few ugly male characters come to kind and none of them are particularly good characters. Unless your from nocturne which I don’t know a ton about yet
Pretty sure he's from the original. Unsure if he shows up in Nocturne (I haven't watched it yet, but I might watch some of it later this week).
Also (to be clear I'm not fake claiming this, just throwing it out there because it amuses me)...
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@Savant
No, it means Vader submitted a post before I did but I didn't see it until after I hit post.
Happens to me all the time in this game; that or I just overlook a post.
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@WyIted
What's your justification for why you're a good guy? You've mentioned you're black, so I'm going to stereotype you.
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@ILikePie5
I was trying to not read the PM during DP1... Ah, male and ugly.
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