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@Tradesecret
Who doesnt work, doesnt eat đ
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Media lies? What a surprise there.
Who would have thought that choosing which facts to say and which facts to hide can lead viewers to wrong conclusions!
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@Kaitlyn
Professor Benatar has argued that life isn't instinctually valuable.
Life is valuable.Â
He's given analogies, philosophical framework and used axioms to reach this conclusion.
His conclusion is based on premise that reducing pain is more important than increasing life. This premise is just his opinion. No one has to agree with such premise.
Simply stating 'it is valuable' isn't a sufficient counter-argument.
Wrong. Simply stating "pain is the worst thing on Earth" is not even an argument, but an opinion. Therefore, when your premise is an opinion, I dont even need to refute it in order to disagree with it.
Again, that isn't the point at all.
I assume you will tell us what is the point.
Do you not understand how we can discover truths by using extreme hypotheticals?
Doesnt change the fact that his "extreme hypotheticals" dont happen in reality.
It's like asking people 'what do you think people would do if they were given $1,000,000?'
Would do if X happens =/= X actually happens
He's using this hypothetical to undercover an underlying axiom about human nature: that we negatively value pain far more than we positively value pleasure.
Doesnt change the fact that amount of pain and pleasure isnt the same.
You can then compound the impact of this axiom by realizing that we're born into suffering but pleasure isn't guaranteed
""Pleasure isnt guaranteed" + "born into suffering" + "not getting 1 amount of pain > getting 1 amount of pleasure" = Life is bad."
This "=" is your value. Not mine. Therefore, when we remove "=" from this and replace it with "=/=", it follows that there is no conclusion to tell us that life is bad.
Truth is that we are born into suffering. Truth is that pleasure isnt guaranteed, but happens often. Truth is that life in itself is a good thing. I would rather be alive and in pain than not be alive and not be in pain. If you think your life is so horrible that you think its better you werent born, well then it sucks to be you.
So, we have all that against your guess of 10000:1 based on nothing.
I have 7 billion people that literally disagree with you. If you have to teach them that their pain is so bad, then that already means it isnt.
I agree that reducing pain is good, but not at the expense of life.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Well, yes being named Benatar is....
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Hello Benatar
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Whats up Benatar
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"Lets invite Benatar"
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But its easier to say:
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"I would rather not invite Benatar"
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Then Benatar gets upset and....
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Thinks of a moral system....
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That has a goal....
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To end human life by telling people....
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to not have children anymore...
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And if you do have children....
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The least you can do...
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Is to....
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not name them Benatar.
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And the countries who decide not to have children...
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Will be conquered....
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By those...
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Who choose to continue making babies.
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Unless all babies become Benatar.
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@Kaitlyn
You need to show that overall, "increasing life" leads to a positive outcome.
No. Increasing life is a positive outcome, since I hold value that life is the most important thing.
In other words, humans experience far more negative emotion with one unit of pain than they do positive emotion with one unit of pleasure. That's his point
It still stands that most people dont trade 1 unit of pleasure for 1 unit of pain. I am guessing the actual ratio is 100000:1.
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@Kaitlyn
What do you mean by increasing life?
I think that above all, we should work to increase the amount of human life to the maximum possible.
I agree that reducing pain is good, but it is not more important than increasing life.
Which part is he exaggerating?
"would you trade five minutes of the worst pain imaginable for five minutes of the greatest pleasure?"
Humanity does not have to make such trade in order to exist, so yes it is exaggerated.
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False reporting is common in news. However, saying that Mexican can be white supremacist?
This is a typical example of deriving wrong conclusions from actual facts.
Or should I say, desired conclusions wrongly derived from actual facts.
I listened to Hitler's speeches on YouTube plenty of times. Does that mean I support Hitler? No.
I read Satanic Bible. Am I a satanist? No.
I read Quran. Am I a muslim? No.
But their logic for Mexican shooter is:
They literally try to find any kind of material on Mexican shooter, any kind of book that he owned, any joke he made... just to be able to label that shooter as right wing or white supremacist.
They are playing the game of blame.Â
"Transgender shooter was oppressed by right wing"
"Mexican shooter was inspired by right wing"
Blaming all problems in society on a particular group of people is a mentality commonly found in dictators who wish to control the masses.
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@Lemming
On his arguement of clothing not being a 'major point in the question.
Well, the major point in question are men who cant control their urges, of course.
However, then the question rises: why some men cant control their urges?
In some countries, men control their urges much better than in others.
I am not suggesting that women should be forced to wear a hijab with face cover, but I am saying it would probably be good.
Woman walking around in clothes that reveal 90% of the body is obviously increasing the desire in most of the men who see her.
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@sadolite
I would say that there are some women also who are very undesirable.
Who would want to marry a woman that weights 500 pounds?
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@Lemming
If a mother sells her underage daughter,There's not really any book or film to blame for 'that.
When parents abuse their children, thats horrible on an even greater level. Those children are more likely to end up in foster care, and we all know that foster care is horrible with plenty of abuse going on there too.
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@IlDiavolo
Allowing prostitution, of course.
I agree that legalizing prostitution decreases rape rates.
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@zedvictor4
The sin thing is just made up by sexually repressed and completely un-omni men.
Of course it is. For example, you cant really prove that anything exists. You cant even prove that you really exist, hence the matrix and other nonsense. So naturally, proving the existence of sin or God is even harder.
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@hey-yo
There are numberous movies and pop culture that increasingly introduce or mention things like porn, bdsm, etc.
I agree that those things are bad. However, doesnt make women walking around half-naked any more justified.
Some societies banned porn and made women cover, so it is not "one or the other" case.
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@hey-yo
How has the us tried to change that mentality?
All children in US are taught about consent. The problem is that teaching someone =/= someone accepting what is being taught.
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@Lemming
I agree that media has influence. However, preventing violent content is difficult.
First, you would have to ban Bible, Torah and Quran - the amount of violence in Quran is actually stunning.
Then to ban all other violent books, so that means most of books would be banned.
Then movies. Almost all movies contain violence.
Basically, we would have to invent an entire new world of books and movies that contain no violence.
Also, there are plenty of videos and news containing violence.
So we would basically have to remove all speech, videos, images, sounds and text that contain violence.
Would we get better world? Yes, of course. The problem would be that almost no one would agree to that. Policies strongly opposed by 99% of population are usually doomed to failure.
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"Like a boxer who has practiced his counters, Benatar has anticipated a range of objections. Many people suggest that the best experiences in lifeâlove, beauty, discovery, and so onâmake up for the bad ones. To this, Benatar replies that pain is worse than pleasure is good. Pain lasts longer: âThereâs such a thing as chronic pain, but thereâs no such thing as chronic pleasure,â he said. Itâs also more powerful: would you trade five minutes of the worst pain imaginable for five minutes of the greatest pleasure? Moreover, thereâs an abstract sense in which missing out on good experiences isnât as bad as having bad ones. âFor an existing person, the presence of bad things is bad and the presence of good things is good,â Benatar explained. âBut compare that with a scenario in which that person never existedâthen, the absence of the bad would be good, but the absence of the good wouldnât be bad, because thereâd be nobody to be deprived of those good things.â This asymmetry âcompletely stacks the deck against existence,â he continued, because it suggests that âall the unpleasantness and all the misery and all the suffering could be over, without any real cost.â"
Yeah, thats what the extreme anti-natalist case amounts to. I guess someone needs to tell him that increasing life>reducing pain, and that most people disagree with him about the amount of pain in life that he obviously exaggerated to the fullest extent.
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@Bella3sp
That is not to say men don't get raped but in terms of research, it's mostly woman.
Men raping men is common in prison. There are cases of abuse of young boys by adults. However, woman raping a man is almost impossible. I mean, its possible, but very rare, I would say.
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@hey-yo
 Im sure there is a fetish for it.Â
Well, I wouldnt agree with that.
Im going along the line for changing mentality.
Yes. The problem with that is: How to do it?
Because we could say that USA has been trying to change that mentality for a long time.
The result? 1 in 6 women are victims of rape in the USA.
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@zedvictor4
I wear atheist underpants.The ones without the cross on the back.A cross on the back signifies where the word of GOD emanates from.
Way to go adding "unforgivable sin" to the list of sins you committed.
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@hey-yo
Can we address the male/female dynamic that prevents us from looking at another person purely for pleasuring ourselves?
Well, the hijab with face cover does remove all pleasure gained from looking at a woman.
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@Lemming
Don't encourage so much media where individuals force themselves on other people.
That would be a bit difficult. I mean, do we ban all the violent movies? Not even North Korea does that.
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@Kaitlyn
His physical attractiveness.
Well, I guess I would have to become gay to understand that standard.
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@Kaitlyn
Because if its just wallet, then I understand that its like 5-10% of men who are actually desirable by that standard.
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@Kaitlyn
I'm sorry but there are a lot of men who are simply too unattractive to be worth considering.
I wouldnt know how is that measured. Like, what does a woman find attractive in a man other than his wallet?
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@iwantrooseveltÂ
Whatâs my dog doing here?
I dont see any counter-arguments in this sentence that would contribute to the given topic.
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@Kaitlyn
women are fine with going back to harems and sharing a top 10% man
Yes. That would be fun and they will do that once polygamy becomes widely accepted.
The reasoning will probably go like:
"Why should women compete for a man when they can share him and everyone is happy then!".
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Priest proof panties
Well, why just "priest proof"? Does it not work against atheists?
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@Intelligence_06
Oromagi has provided studies on this thread
No.
The topic wasnt:
"Woman who dresses properly is less likely to be raped".
The topic was:
"Women walking around half-naked = increase in rape".
Studies need to show data and the way they gathered data. Oromagi showed neither.
As I explained before, the data on rape is impossible to collect, so calling that junk "studies" is an insult to actual studies, plus irrelevant to the topic which deals with "increase of rape" and not "increase of rape of women who dont dress properly".
While men probably dont choose to rape a woman based on her current clothes, being exposed to half-naked women since youth may have caused an increase in the number of rapists among them.
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@Intelligence_06
No, your topic suggests that it is wrong in all cases
No. People know that I talk about the case of majority, not all cases.
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@Iwantroosevelt
"I see my dog is here. SubTeach is my dog"
Are you trying to get yourself banned?
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@zedvictor4
perhaps it is incumbent on men in "western" societies to learn to control their hormonal surges, rather than to dictate how women should dress
How do we teach men to control their urges?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Would this stop rape ? . Obviously yes . Of a specific type of rape
It could stop rape, but not assault, so I am not sure if there would be any real benefit of it.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Fun joke. Might not wanna use it on first date tho.
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@Intelligence_06
there was an infection
Not everyone gets an infection, so cant apply it to everyone.
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@oromagi
Compare rape statistics from nude and topless beaches in the West to rape statistics in countries where women wear full hijab and we find that an entirely invisible woman is far more at risk than even a naked woman.Â
USA and Sweden have very high rates of reported rape, so I am not really sure where you got those statistics about West having less rape.
However, the statistics on rape are misleading in general.
There is:
1) Actual amount of rapeÂ
2) Actual amount of reported rape
3) Actual amount of unreported rape
4) Actual amount of false claims that were reported as rape.
3) and 4) is what messes up 2), which makes 1) unknown.
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So Ukraine thinks its good to try to kill Putin?
Do they even know the consequences of that action?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Are these Hot looking women in short skirts keeping muslims away ?
I would say no, because muslims who live in countries where you cant even see woman's face until you are like 20, they were very happy to move to Sweden. Of course, it didnt turn out well for Sweden.
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@sadolite
100% of women only want 10% of men.
Sadly for them, that ratio wouldnt work because leaving 90% of men virgin is a very bad idea.
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@Savant
There's a difference between immodesty and indecent exposure.
Yes. Both are provoking, just not equally provoking.
Actually, you can just not rape someone. It's not difficult.
I am not talking about what boys can do but about what boys will do, and if it is related to women walking around half-naked.
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@Savant
Women walking around half-naked can cause sexual arousal in young boys, plus they can inspire young girls to dress in same way.
I would say its not good for boys under 14 to be exposed to half-naked women.
Its not like the boys control themselves better when provoked than when not provoked.
The data itself is a bit clouded, since countries dont have equal "rape reports per rape cases". We dont know if comparing rape reports of countries is good, since in some countries women are less likely to report a rape and that messes up a statistic.
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If we say that:
"women walking around half-naked = increase in rape"
Then should women dress properly in order to reduce rape?
Or is "not being raped" less important than "walking around half-naked"?
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"3rd trimester abortions"
Chopping unborn baby to pieces is a bit difficult to defend.
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@SkepticalOne
I agree with all 3 of those.
Exorcism was actually only successfully done by few people in the Bible. Jesus being one of them.
Even the disciples of Jesus couldnt help the possessed.
So of course a priest of today has little to no power in performing exorcism. Exorcism requires very strong faith that no person on Earth currently has.
I would say that prayer can help the mentally ill, but anyone claiming he can do exorcism is likely a liar.
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Diversity doesnt work. Israel knows this. Thats why they have laws where you in most cases cannot move to Israel unless you are Jew who opposes diversity.
Land in Israel is mostly state-owned to prevent the sale of land to non-Jews.
Israel cannot live in peace with muslims, so naturally it had to kick them out. They are still in conflict at borders, which just further confirms what diversity leads to.
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@SkepticalOne
We have to believe that possession is real.
Its mentioned in the Bible plenty of times. Plus, anyone who has seen mentally ill people knows how possession looks like.
However, these days its not called possession anymore, but mental illness. Also, it isnt usually treated by exorcism anymore, but by pills and other shit.
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@Tradesecret
Saying "if he repents, forgive him" doesnt say what happens if he doesnt repent.
Thats why I claim that some things can be forgiven to a person even if that person doesnt repent.
For example, Bible mentions "sin that doesnt lead to death".
There are small sins that simply should be forgiven and let go off, even if an offender doesnt repent.
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@Kaitlyn
Was it humane to kill Jews that way, or would it have been better to let them starve to death? It's pretty debatable.
They would leave on their own, or they would starve.
I can understand that in an event of shortages, someone dies anyway. However, trying to save them by killing them kinda ruined his reputation.
But he did attack Jews even before the blocade, which caused Jews in other countries to boycott Germany.
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USA already has too many people in prison.
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@Kaitlyn
I think he did some good things for Germany, but he certainly wasn't perfect
It would actually be much better for Germany if Hitler didnt:
1) Attack other countries
2) Attack Jews
2) is what made trade difficult, and it is what increased hate towards Hitler.
1) is what brought Germany into unwinnable world war and ended up giving German territory to USSR which is about as bad as it gets because Russians arent famous for treating others well.
I did hear arguments that Hitler was acting in self-defense when he attacked all those countries. However, sometimes self-defense turns into self-destruction.
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