Total posts: 2,155
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
I misread Ultra and Lunatic and let myself get pushed off a good scumread on Casey.
Your read was correct, but I don't think it was a good one. I was literally planning on opening like that regardless of my alignment.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
If you and Pie both blame me and not Town voting me here, you dont understand mafia at all especially the IC claim and how unkillable for Town it should be.
I disagree so strongly. DP3 Innocent Child is the pinnacle of a scummy claim. It's just asking for an excuse to be left alive without having to give any sort of results or anything. I think claiming it or anything like it without backing it up with strongly towny behavior is worthy of some suspicion.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Respect for all the effort in this game and the previous one. I think we put up a good fight regardless.
Honestly, this was probably my least bad scum game to date. Maybe one day I'll get a win... (Yes, I technically won in UPick, but I was carried by my partner and we still only won due to a mod error.)
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
Bro, WF and Casey had to play two townsided games twice in a row ðŸ˜
I'd say this one wasn't townsided so much as it was very, very swingy. We didn't do so well when coming up with WF's claim (there were signs that all the town characters were pretty famous people early on, we really should have caught on to that), but I don't think we did too bad all things considered.
Created:
Posted in:
Based on the information we did have however, I think we chose fairly well. There was just so much we didn't know about what roles were out there. Rolecopping Luna turned out to be a really good choice tho.
Created:
Posted in:
GG! Playing scum is hard. In retrospect, probably the ideal set of night actions for us after DP1 would have been for me to still rolecop Luna, but have WF block Barney/Vader instead and kill Earth/Wylted. That would have limited town confirmation as much as possible and left the PoE wide open.
Created:
Posted in:
Well, it was worth a shot, anyway. Though I still stand by what I said tbh. I'm obviously not convincing you to change your vote however, and I seriously doubt I can get both Vader and Ultra to vote for Luna at this point, so I'm not going to prolong this any further.
VTL Casey
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
lmao thats basically a confession.
I'm not confessing; I am town. I'm not saying, 'please don't lynch me at all', I'm just saying, 'lynch the person who you actually think has the strongest behavioral case against them instead of just going for the algorithmic solve'.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
If it saves you time don't respond to my other post. It is meaningless. All we should be talking about is the game solve and why you would be opposed to it for any reason.Â
Fair enough. Put simply, I agree that Vader is almost definitely town based on his role, and sure, the town could just auto-win by going along with your plan. Normally I wouldn't even be opposed to that, but in this situation, I feel like the mafia should at least be given a chance. I don't think what happened to Whiteflame was at all fair. This game should be focused on actual social deduction - looking for signs that people are lying, analyzing their interactions with others, etc. Focusing on out-of-game information like Mikal did is just a cheap way to win imo. It's also why I'm opposed to massclaiming. It's barely better than having everyone copy-paste their role PMs in my eyes.
If the majority agrees that I'm scum based on actual behavioral reasons, then fair enough. But just lynching me to get the guaranteed win by the end of DP4 doesn't feel right to me. I just think the mafia should be given a chance, y'know?Â
Created:
Posted in:
My shift is almost over. I've got a bit to say, just wait a bit for me to get home.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
Okay, so a couple of things. First, the third shifter on my position is coming back, which means I can finally stop working crazy overtime, woohoo! I actually found this out yesterday, but I'm still super happy about it. I'm pretty busy at work tonight, but I have a little break for now and my shift will end at its normal time finally. I'll be more active after I get home, I promise, but for now I can only write this little bit.
Anyway, I'm beginning to rethink this game, and particularly my read on Luna. It's a strange claim with a really weird justification that I just do not get. More importantly however, it's another role that punishes the town for lynching it if I'm reading it correctly. So Mikal claimed Hated and Ultra claimed Super Saint on DP1, and Luna also had a role that could punish the town for trying to lynch them... And he not only didn't raise any suspicions about this, but went on to advocate for AR's lynch instead? I agreed with his reasoning at the time, but in retrospect it feels like scum trying to avoid seeming overly opportunist by getting the Super Saint lynched. I feel like Luna, Ultra, and Mikal can't all have been telling the truth, and we know Mikal wasn't lying, so it's down to Luna and Ultra for me.
Of course, I could be reading too deeply into Luna and it's just Ultra who is a Ninja. A Ninja would make sense in terms of balance, and he also basically copied my arguments during DP1. That put me off a bit even then. Luna has also been giving me really strong town vibes all game like I said and I do still give him some credit for that. So really, I could go either way here.
Just to be clear though, Luna, how does your Beloved Princess work? If you get lynched, is the following DP skipped?Â
Created:
Posted in:
At work, will be more active later. Mikal dying is unsurprising. Seems like the theme split is just men vs women. Very boring and underwhelming split, but I guess it makes sense. Down to Wylted and Ultra for me.
Created:
Posted in:
I guess Luna could still be scum technically. I just think he's been giving very towny vibes this game. If he's scum and ends up winning, he's earned it.Â
Created:
Posted in:
Hello, I'm here. Sucks that we lost the Innocent Child but tbh I don't regret being on that wagon. Role claims like that are always going to come off as suspicious and he was being pretty blatantly anti-town anyway.
As for me, I am Gloria Steinem. Because I was a huge contributor to second wave feminism and a big activist for women's rights, I am the Odd-Night Strengthener. Obviously, this implicates Whiteflame even more. I'm guessing he's just a scum RB. Last night I used my ability on Luna. I had a strong gut feeling he was town and thought he may have had a power role. PoE has it down to Wylted and Ultra, personally. I don't see Vader being scum with that role.Â
Created:
Posted in:
I'm sorry, I haven't been as active as I know I should be. I have work today but I'm going to try and get caught up.Â
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Barney
Come to think of it, if Barney is scum, we're letting him skate by this game. Pinging for activity. I know you have a lot to catch up on but I at least want to hear something substantive from you before this DP is over.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
Why don't we all vote for our favorite between ultra and RM and then see where the chips fall and which side is more open to negotiate.Â
So far, everyone except Barney, WF, and you has cast a vote already. Mikal and AR are both on someone other than one of those two but it's obvious where Mikal stands.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mikal
In a perfect world we need RM to hammer ultra and I think we get scum one way or the other.Â
In a perfect world, yes. Like Wylted and I said, however, it's a negative freeroll. If AR is scum, he's just not going to be the hammer. And if he's town, he's also probably not going to be the hammer (he said he wouldn't, and it's one of the only statements he's made so far that I actually trust was the truth). So if Ultra is town, whoever hammers him is likely also going to be town (that's actually true regardless). Going for Ultra as the hammer is a huge risk here. Granted, he could be scum and we lose nothing, but if he's town, we almost definitely lose more than if we lynch any other townie.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mikal
I also want to point out this is the first game I’ve been in that ultra has not been replaced or actually tried in. His normally activist is absent or town.Â
He was low-activity in the previous game, but he was also super low-activity in Debate Mafia (to the point of being completely absent from DP2 in that one as well), but he was scum in that game. His activity here feels similar to his other town games other than Skyrim.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mikal
This is going to sound harsh. I just think RM is that bad of a player and thinks he’s that good that he will Mentally justify whatever gambit he’s tryingÂ
I mean, fair enough lol. At this point however, I think I've said all I can about AR vs Ultra. If the majority clearly prefers Ultra, I'll switch my vote if necessary just so that we can have a lynch. For now, though, I'm going to vote for the one I sus most.
VTL Ratman
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
You couldnt see Savant being voted out the othee game either.
That's not even true. I never said that at all. I saw him being voted out quite easily, actually.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mikal
No I think is likely one or the other with wfÂ
Fair enough, I agree that it's likely one or the other. I just think that AR is the better choice.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
Luna is the vote today
I literally cannot see Luna being voted out today.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mikal
Super saint is vague and not often used and even he prefaced it by saying it’s scummy and the fact Joan is likely not to be in the game makes it more likely he won’t get cced. You can spin anyone as a feminist if you try hard enough.  Don’t see a split with that and my character
Do you think AR and Ultra are a team however? Because AR backs up the character.
Also, like I said, I know from experience that Owen tends to be very reliant on his partner as scum. It's been true in every scum game he's played that I can remember - particularly Classic Movies, but also Villainous Villains and Heroic Heroes. I just don't think that his partner would advise him to claim Joan of Arc/Super Saint so early. Not unless his partner was just terrible at mafia, and I don't think anyone here fits that bill.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
I'll repeat my earlier post:
I will say that I am very sus of the Super Saint claim, mainly because it's a really odd combo with Hated Townie. That being said, I think it would be a terrible idea for Ultra to claim that as scum, and I know that Ultra tends to be very reliant on his partners as scum. Granted, he did make the pretty bad Miller claim in Classic Movies Mafia, but that was when he was being pressured into claiming, his partners weren't online, and he panicked. Here, he wasn't facing the same kind of pressure, though AR trying to push him might have made him feel pressured anyway? That would only make sense if AR is town, however.
Basically, if Ultra felt pressured into claiming, it can only be because of AR pushing him. But that makes no sense if AR and Ultra are scum buddies. I also do not buy that the Ultra lynch is a DP1 bus from AR.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
Why hint at his role being scummy? He was under no real pressure there either. I would’ve just hid it and let scum be okay with hammering me.
I mean, it's like I said - Owen has a history of being quickly and easily scumread. I think he would actually be inclined to say early if his role was traditionally a scummy claim, especially given what happened in Classic Movies Mafia.
To me it just looks like he got spooked by pressure he perceived, not pressure that was there.
Like I said, I can see that being true. However, I would have to believe that AR is town for this to be true, and I think that AR is more likely to be scum here, personally. I'm curious why you disagree.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
Mharman claims his role casts shade on ultra. Can we just do this?
Wait, he did? Where? I think I missed that.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
Today is Lunatic or me
You're not the one to unilaterally decide that. And even if it was between Luna and you, I'd go with you in a heartbeat.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
But would savant see her as a feminist? And why would ultra claim that?Â
I agree with this line of thought. It doesn't make sense for scum Ultra to claim Joan of Arc when no character claims prior were anyone remotely similar.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
I want Casey to hammer.
Alright, I will respond to your sus on me. I had meant to do that earlier anyway but kind of forgot.
Yes, it is true that I floated potential theme splits but didn't softclaim myself. It's because I wanted feedback on my ideas, for a couple reasons. I used to always be in favor of doing that sort of softclaim every game back in the day, but eventually started to get away from it. This is a rare game for me, however, in that I'm actually somewhat invested in the theme, so I wanted to talk about it. For another thing, I felt that getting other players' feedback can be valuable. Early softclaims like that do help lock in character claims, but they also can help the mafia figure out who other players might be. Personally, I think your pushback on my idea was helpful in that it gives me a good reason to townread you, as the resistance feels like it comes from a genuine place. AR, not so much, mainly because of the inconsistency of retaliating against my idea but also weirdly townreading me? I don't think anyone else so far other than Mikal has really commented on it.
If you want me to softclaim, however, I'm fine with doing that. My character is predominantly associated with second-wave feminism, though they arguably contributed to third-wave feminism. As for their position on the sex wars, that's a little unclear to me. I think you could call her sex-positive? Not entirely sure about that one. I also don't think that my ideas for a theme split are right anymore given Ultra and AR's claims/partial claims (like I said, I can't see them as being paired), but I don't think my soft gives away very much information here.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Ultracrepidarian
If I'm the lynch at least make RM hammerÂ
RM has already said he's not going to hammer. We had a similar situation in Bo Burnham Mafia. Wylted called it a 'negative freefall' I believe.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
I think you have an overinflated sense of self-importance. People don't 'fear' Mikal, they respect him.
That being said, I agree that we shouldn't be relying on out of game information. It tends to lead people astray, and besides, it's against the spirit of the game imo.
That being said, I agree that we shouldn't be relying on out of game information. It tends to lead people astray, and besides, it's against the spirit of the game imo.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mikal
Honestly, I'm a little wary of reading too deep into off-site stuff like that. I also feel like it's not really in the spirit of the game. WF is in my PoE however, so I will take that into consideration.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Ultracrepidarian
I did claim a really weird role so the suspicion I feel is justifiedÂ
Right, but AR was hard sussing you even before that
Created:
Posted in:
I will say that I am very sus of the Super Saint claim, mainly because it's a really odd combo with Hated Townie. That being said, I think it would be a terrible idea for Ultra to claim that as scum, and I know that Ultra tends to be very reliant on his partners as scum. Granted, he did make the pretty bad Miller claim in Classic Movies Mafia, but that was when he was being pressured into claiming, his partners weren't online, and he panicked. Here, he wasn't facing the same kind of pressure, though AR trying to push him might have made him feel pressured anyway? That would only make sense if AR is town, however. I do not see them as being paired at all. If AR flips town, I'll take another look at Ultra, but for now, he's off my list.Â
Mikal is also almost definitely town now that I think about it - his lack of knowledge that Hated usually deactivates at MYLO/LYLO feels genuine, especially given how he claimed instantly. I just don’t think he'd do that as scum, especially not in a game where he only has one partner. So for now, Mikal and Ultra would seem to both be town. But that feels really weird to me.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
You are wrong. If I fullclaim will we vote Luna after yes or no
Absolutely not. I don't agree with your read on Luna at all. He's a very good scum player but I think I have actually picked up on a subtle difference in his playstyle between town and mafia, and so far I don't see it.Â
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Savant
Okay, I speedread through most of the pages made since I was last online. I agree that AR is highly sus, largely for the reasons Mikal and Luna already brought out, but also for another reason that I don't think either of them really pointed out - putting attention on Ultra for very weak reasons (imo). Ultra tends to be one of those players who attracts suspicion easily as either alignment and thus tends to be seen as an easy lynch. I myself pointed this out in the previous game, hoping it would make my own push seem a little less sus.
Ratman's early push on Ultra felt really unjustified to me, however. The outright admitting to lying is also baffling to me. I thought that after the last game, everyone would surely try to avoid the same kind of drama, but I guess I was wrong. All in all, either AR is scum, or he's directly hurting the town by making it impossible to trust him, and for that, I think he should be today's lynch.
Savant, can we get a vote count?
Created:
Posted in:
Oh gods, sorry for being so absent today. Give me a moment to get caught upÂ
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
Why Ultra specifically? Is it just because of his low activity last game?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mikal
Ima be honest, I could not tell you one modern feminist if I tried.Â
Point taken, though I don't know you well enough to take you at your word for it.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
I am Town btw. So I recommend reading others. I do think you are Town too. The instant Hated claim either is real or is a gambit to see who rushes to vote you off and skip DP1.
I've seen scum fakeclaim SOP roles a couple times, so I won't rush to townread anyone for it anymore. I will say that Clementine Ford isn't an obvious character for this game (I hadn't heard of her before), so I do lean town on Mikal because of it. I'm not considering him a lock yet however.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mikal
Kinda like taking an adc mid in league. You do it in diamond and challenger, you prob get slapped but you can get away with it sometimes.Â
I'm going to pretend I understand this sentence and call it a good metaphor.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
I'll be honest, I don't really support blacklisting players unless they show a repeated unwillingness to learn or cooperate with other players. Greyparrot is the only person I've played with who I support blacklisting, and he is blacklisted, so nothing more for me to say on that matter. I do think Savant was acting in a very anti-town manner in the last game, but I also think he's probably the most underrated town player here. I mean, he was straight up right about me and WF being the scum team based on relatively little information. He was also the only person to be able to figure out that WF and Earth were a team in Ace Attorney mafia when everyone else was focused on Austin vs Mharman. He's a good player with good reads that often get overlooked. Everyone else can do what they want, but I'm not blacklisting him. Other players are free to express their own opinions on the matter.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
Considering what happened in The Russian Mafia (you can read that if you want, but TL;DR two different townies lied about their roles and ended up getting themselves lynched), I would very much not recommend lying about your role if you don't have a very good reason to do so. I don't fully agree with the 'lynch all liars' meta but in most situations where someone has lied, it just makes them super sus. I'll repeat what I said in the Endgame thread:
I don't know if the right takeaway here is necessarily to never, ever, do gambits as town, but you have to realize that when you take a gambit, you are assuming the risks that come with it, and you have to be prepared to bare those risks. You can't lie about your character and role and then act righteously indignant when people call you out on it, because your indignance isn't righteous.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
It may even give some hints. If someone sticks out in a 'split'.I wont spell out more.Its best to hide that info for now. That is my belief.
I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Getting softclaims can cause someone to stick out, which is a useful hint, but we still shouldn't do it because ???
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
Luna maybe is the only one who says it.
Well, that's not true. Pie and I are also very forthcoming about whether or not scum have been given fakeclaim assistance. Granted, I was a little less obvious about it in the last game I hosted but I still made it clear there was a fakeclaim mechanic.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
Question 3 does not clarify the rule here or punishment
There's a distinction between metas and rules, you know. Obviously, I wanted Savant to be lynched last game because I was scum, but I would have been ambivalent about it as town for the actual reasons I gave - he probably wouldn't have done what he did as scum. That being said, I understand why the meta of lynching anyone who doesn't claim exists. Personally, I'd be a lot less lenient about it in this game in the context of the previous one. My point, however, is that the answer isn't really relevant to this game regardless, because I seriously doubt anyone is going to be intransigent at L-1 like Savant was.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AdaptableRatman
- Is it my interaction with Casey that got me voted or was it akin to what happened the previous game where I got replaced in that I get voted no matter what?
Going back to answer these questions - it was your interaction with me. You were hard buddying me for basically no reason.
In this game do you want me to play towards leading Town or following, dp1 at least?
You can play how you want, but if you want to try and take the lead, make sure others are actually going to follow.
Are we forcing claims at E-1 (L-1) or not? Is it forced and liars get blacklisted or is lying and/or not claiming fully allowed?
I think anyone who gets to L-1 will probably claim, given what happened last game. The only one who might not follow that rule is Mikal, but he already SOP claimed.
Created: