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@ILikePie5
What are your thoughts on Wylted lying about the time he received his PM?
I also got my PM this morning, but that could be because I signed up late. Seems a few people are open about saying that they got their PMs yesterday. Hypothetically if I was scum and wylted was town I would be wary of admitting my PM came in yesterday after he called GP out, so I am going to lean slight town on whoever the first person was to say their PM came in this morning after GP (as soon as I double check who that was).
On the other hand if Wylted was hypothetically scum, what would he have to gain from this move? in that scenario he sees a townie say they got their PM at a certain time and... what? goes after him for a mislynch? when he knows that if one townie got their PM at that time then others may have as well and would back GP up? Doesn't add up to me.
This is very likely a case of Wylted being town, noticing a discrepancy, and pointing it out.
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@Lunatic
computer is suppose to be in it but if i havnt heard back in a hour or so I'll add you in his place. Want to start it fast cus new job next week and the first dp is prob going to be slammed
Oh, didn't see that until you pointed it out. He tagged me in three posts at once and I just read the last one.
I don't think computernerd has been replaced, he is in a discord hydra PM with me. Seems clear based on the posts in question that he thought about making me a replacement then decided to make us hydra instead.
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Presumably I signed up after roles were already set and mikal did not want to exclude me but also didn't want to reroll everything so I was hydra'd with the new guy for that reason.
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What is this about a replacement? Am I missing something?
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@Lunatic
Just saw you vote me, I was typing as you did it.
I am not super active on discord usually but I did not get my PM until a bit under 4 hours ago. I am a hydra (as per post number 12). Check the signups, I signed up rather late.
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Just got my PM a few hours ago due to my late signup. As I am a hydra with a new guy I have decided to let him take the dominant role in our partnership for learning purposes, so I will not be voting or unvoting unless I feel very strongly about a certain read. That said I will still play, just my main focus will be on guiding computer nerd.
We are both town by the way ;)
We are both town by the way ;)
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@Mikal
if he comes back, would you mind doing a hydra with him?
Fine by me. I will poke you soon.
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Vote for 3RU7AL, I guess. Any chance of him getting ten more votes in the next ten minutes?
Completely missed all of this because I was not online lol.
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@Lunatic
But I think even pie, DD and wylted would be pretty unbiased.
This sounds like the perfect panel to me personally, though I suppose I am a bit biased in assessing my own bias.
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@RationalMadman
@Lunatic
Or as one potential comprise make it open voting but you each get some number of people that you can disqualify from voting based on the belief that they would bee too biased. Just list them before round one and if you are listed by either debator your vote doesn't count, would have to limit the number of people each debator can list though. Maybe three at most. American trials have a rule like this for the jury selection process.
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@RationalMadman
@Lunatic
Assuming this happens I would like to volunteer as a judge.
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@RationalMadman
Nope, they are automatically forced into it
Okay, then you and I are talking about two different proposals and this conversation is therefore redundant. Have your last word then have a nice day.
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@RationalMadman
RM, read every line carefully before responding. This is very easy to understand but you have to read more than one line in order to do so.
EVERY.
LINE.
Example world where 3RU7AL's proposal goes into effect (for your own understanding of the concept):
Users A-C are put on a list by mods based on people the mods deem toxic to the community.
Users A-C ARE NOT given a choice about whether to be part of the program because they are on the list.
Users D-J ARE given a choice about whether to be part of the program because they are not on the list
Users D-F OPT IN to the program. They CANNOT see anything that users A-C say.
Users G-J OPT OUT of the program. They CAN see everything that users A-C say.
I don't like the idea, if it was put to a MEEP I would vote NO on it. I am not defending it in any way. That said, though I have my own criticisms of the idea that doesn't mean I won't point out when other people's criticisms are incorrect.
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@RationalMadman
Example world where 3RU7AL's proposal goes into effect (for your own understanding of the concept):
Users A-C are put on a list by mods.
Users D-F OPT IN to the list. They CANNOT see anything that users A-C say.
Users G-J OPT OUT of the list. They CAN see everything that users A-C say.
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@RationalMadman
Example world where 3RU7AL's proposal goes into effect:
Users A-C are put on a list by mods.
Users D-F OPT IN to the list. They CANNOT see anything that users A-C say.
Users G-J OPT OUT of the list. They CAN see everything that users A-C say.
I don't like the idea, if it was put to a MEEP I would vote NO on it. I am not defending it in any way. That said, though I have my own criticisms of the idea that doesn't mean I won't point out when other people's criticisms are incorrect.
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@Wylted
He is using the term incorrectly if he means what I suggested.
RM is the one that said 3RU7AL was suggesting shadow bans, 3RU7AL and I both say that what 3RU7AL suggested was not shadow banning.
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@RationalMadman
Nope, read carefully:the mods could make an OPTIONAL moderator-muted-list of users they deemed "inappropriate" so they would be invisible to the public and also invisible to all site members - UNLESS - site members un-checked the OPTIONAL moderator-muted-list
I think one of us is glossing over the parts that are bolded and in ALL CAPS.
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@Lunatic
now that RM and wylted have dropped, whats your position between airmax and 3RU7AL?
Mostly undecided. Max seemed pretty cool the few times I have talked to him before, his avatar creeps me out though.
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@Wylted
That's exactly how the teem is used on YouTube.
See post 166, am I missing something? Two completely different things.
What 3RU7AL was suggesting is literally this. You can say it's a bad idea and I wouldn't argue that at all, but it's objectively not shadow banning.
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@RationalMadman
Right, so shadow banning means that the mods come in and make user A's comments invisible to users B-Z.
3RU7AL is saying user B can make user A's comments invisible to user B.
That's... very very different.
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@Vader
If people feel the need to silence members, they should not be on a debate site
I have never blocked anyone and never will, but the current way that blocking works seems pretty pointless. IF I was going to block someone it would be because I didn't want to see their posts, making posts of blocked users invisible to the blocker just sounds like making the block feature actually do something (it currently does nothing).
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@RationalMadman
Anyone voting 3RU7AL take a look how corrupt he'd want mods to become, he'd want shadowbans where the banned person posts and feels ignored but nobody is able to read their posts except the mods.
Not actually what the term shadow ban means as far as I know but okay.
I don't understand why someone would ever even bother to block someone if they knew they would still see that persons posts.
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@3RU7AL
my primary focus is on insuring all moderation decisions are based on QUANTIFIABLE and transparent rules
So, basically Proposition 1?
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@3RU7AL
No, pretty sure they are going to run it the same way they did the HoF.
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@RationalMadman
Or 3RU7AL may win by 1.
The wasted vote fallacy applies in real life because voters are not allowed to change their vote if they see their second preferred candidate losing to their least favored candidate. That is unlikely to be the case in the DART presidential election and thus it should not influence the vote of any reasonable person in this matter.
I other words, calm your damn tits. Please.
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@RationalMadman
I do not stand for forcing mods to overreact, that's never been my platform.I stand for holding mods to a standard of listening to people when they complain or need help and are overreacting to someone.
This is not a terrible platform. If you win the election, please stick to it to the best of your ability.
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@Wylted
because previously you said my biases would be about left right ideology.
I do not think your biases would be about left/right political ideology. When I said:
I am not convinced you [RM] or wylted would be as neutral as Brutal in taking into account the facts of the case versus your personal beliefs about the accused's character and your personal or political agendas.
I was referring to DART politics, not irl politics. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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@Lunatic
Would you prefer less activity then in general if say that activity was was mostly "needless" drama? TBH tumbleweeds in the main forum of a debate site is pretty disheartening to me. If the whole page was a Jerry Springer episode, at least there is some entertainment there. Considering I and probably many other use this website for entertainment, social interaction, intellectual stimulation, etc, I think drama is better then, well, nothing.
Between the two extremes of no activity whatsoever and 100% of everything anyone says being just 'a Jerry Springer episode', yeah... both of those would be equally a turn-off for me and would cause me to leave and spend my time elsewhere. Better than nothing doesn't necessarily mean better than somewhere else, and going somewhere else is always an option. In reality I have been enjoying my time here quite well myself, however, which is a decent segue into your next question...
What issues are important to you as a voter than for a president?
I think the fact that I don't see any major problems with the moderation as it currently stands biases me toward the status quo, even to the extent that when the MEEP to introduce the position of president was introduced I voted against it. While I have since changed my mind on that for a few reasons I still hold the opinion that the moderation team continues to perform their duties sufficiently well that no significant reforms are required. Given that, when you characterize the three platforms as follows:
Wylted stands for less moderation, RM stands for more, and 3RU7AL stands for, well lets be honest hear, trying to have as little impact on moderation as possible.
I think it makes sense why I would choose 3RU7AL.
Someone that wanted to somehow use the presidency to sway the mods in some way because they aren't satisfied with their performance or for some other reason would probably be better off voting for some other candidate and that makes complete sense. That someone just happens to not be me.
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@Lunatic
1. What about what he says indicates a laissez faire approach? He wants fair and balanced moderating, not less moderating.
Slight misunderstanding. I was not talking about the powers of the mods here but rather the powers of the president. Specifically in reference to post 14 where 3RU7AL points out that the powers of the president as currently outlined are rather limited and that he thinks it should stay that way. This becomes particularly important when considering the two other nominees are both likely to think the powers of the position should be strengthened and whoever wins the first ever seat may potentially have the ability to establish precedent for that exact issue.
Now, I happen to agree with this position of 3RU7AL's. If you hypothetically did not agree with this position then I could of course understand why you would not see this as a good reason to vote for him.
2. Why is less "drama" around an election results a bad thing? The way I see it more activity and people talking is exactly what this website needs.
Note in post 72 I specifically used the phrase "needless drama". I think this is an important distinction. There is "drama [link]", which is not inherently bad and does often serve an important positive purpose, and there is "needless drama [link]", which isn't always inherently harmful but does serve to stir up negative interactions while generally lacking any redeeming qualities.
Where we draw that line probably differs, you may even not make any such distinction yourself which is fine, but pointing out that there is such a line (at least in my mind) at least serves to clarify what I meant in my post and hopefully answer your question.
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@oromagi
Wait, you aren't a mod are you? sorry for the above tag. Not sure why I thought you were.
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@Lunatic
I think "ensuring bans are fair" somewhat implies less bans by default via overturning bans deemed less fair. Due to his stance that the powers of the president do not need any official or unofficial expansion and the only presidential power relating to bans as far as I know would be the pardon power I rather doubt he would specifically advocate for a particular ban or bans the mods weren't applying just because he thought such a ban would be fair, though I guess I technically might be wrong about that. Something for me to think about I guess, along with the rest of what you said.
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@blamonkey
@Barney
@Vader
@whiteflame
@oromagi
With his beliefs in freedom of speech and privacy combined with his campaign platform being to ensure fair enforcement of the democratically ratified CoC through a laissez faire approach rather than just supporting the parts he likes and the fact that he is such a non-controversial figure on the site virtually guaranteeing his election will cause no needless drama that would need to be dealt with in some way, 3RU7AL should be the favored candidate for the mods. Vote accordingly,or tell me why I am wrong and possibly change my mind entirely.
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@Lunatic
It seems your thoughts are 'bad idea' on voting RM and 'meh, he is better than RM I guess' on voting Wylted. Another nominated candidate is 3RU7AL, who has a strong track record in the forums as being strongly pro freedom of speech and almost radically pro freedom of privacy. Furthermore his general attitude gives me the impression that should he be elected he would run the post without any risk of petty drama and his history of seeking to encourage constructive criticism of his personal ideas leads me to believe he would be genuinely open to hearing out grievances from the community and advocating for fair treatment by mods if needed.
What are your thoughts on 3RU7AL for president?
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@Wylted
Who do you think I am more inclined to be biased towards. The pro establishment mods (because they are literally the establishment) or the anti establishment people more likely to find themselves needing my help?
My ideal candidate holds no bias either way. Blind anti-establishmentism is equally as silly as blind following of an establishment. Sometimes bans are justified, I don't want a president that ignores this simple fact to find any way they can to 'stick it to the man'.
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@RationalMadman
I am not convinced you or wylted would be as neutral as Brutal in taking into account the facts of the case versus your personal beliefs about the accused's character and your personal or political agendas.
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@RationalMadman
You know that changing your vote only helps Wylted, right?
Three people will make it to the final election. I am confident that you will be one of those three no matter where I place my vote.
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@Athias
This platform is closer to what I had originally hoped RMs platform would look like and caused me to support him originally (I thought RMs belief that he has been persecuted in the past would make him more focused on the idea of equal treatment for all). My continued support for RM was in large part due to the "at least he is better than Wylted" mindset (being an American unfortunately makes me more predisposed to this).
Brutal's history would indicate that his platform is genuine and it aligns with my desire for what the presidency should represent.
Edit: Did not mean to tag Athias here, not sure how that happened.
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@3RU7AL
My platform - any and all code-of-conduct enforcement should be uniform - regardless of the individual being considered and regardless of where they posted
Is that all? Nothing else whatsoever? Because if so I may have to change my vote (sorry RM).
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@3RU7AL
I accept the nomination
Please tag me when you make your campaign thread.
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@Wylted
Are you a regular on the religion forum
Not anymore. I used to be one of the most active there (check my forum post history) but I am one of the many that abandoned the place due to its toxicity. The only people that have stayed there are those that are okay with or actively perpetuate the toxic environment so naturally those would be more likely to be against any attempt to clean it up.
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@RationalMadman
Please ask me anything about my campaign or Wylted's in comparison.
I asked everything I can think of. You aren't my perfect candidate, honestly some of your stances almost pushed me into not voting at all but what you said about the religion forum compared to some things Wylted has said/done in that regard kept me solidly on your side for the moment.
If the election was right now I would vote for you.
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@RationalMadman
@Barney
@whiteflame
@ILikePie5
@oromagi
Some of you have said 'maybe, depends who else is playing' to the possibility of a second game. What about a 5 player game between you five?
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@Barney
What did Supa do which outed him as a spy?
Mission One team: RM Earth (sabatoged)
Mission Two team proposal from Supa: RM Earth WF
It wasn't great...
Though it seemed that Supa was being slightly less scum read than Earth when I replaced you in, which somewhat factored into me giving you his slot rather than Earth's. Kinda feel bad that you were screwed no matter what.
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@oromagi
I would recommend a much quicker pace to game play.
Agree, open to recommendations on how to enforce.
Are spies able to talk to one another?
Yes. I debated with myself on that one since in the face-to-face version they are not but decided that the inevitable slower pace probably favors res team and allowed spy communication as a small counter-balance.
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@whiteflame
Still don't think it was the smart choice to sabotage during Mission 1, but maybe that's just me.
Apparently the meta for people that play regularly is that mission one always passes no matter what, though I have not found any info on it being played online... just face-to-face. This is the only time it has been played in this setting as far as I can tell.
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If anyone is interested in a second game let me know. I would not mind doing another go as either a mod or a player myself.
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@RationalMadman
@Barney
@Vader
@whiteflame
Endgame is up.
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@Earth
@ILikePie5
@oromagi
Spy team: Earth and Supa/Ragnar
PMs:
Earth
Affiliation: Hegemony Spy
Partner: SupaDudz
Date of Birth: 02/42/861
Real bio: Enrolled in a prestigious military academy with sponsorship from Duke Heckson at age of 15 in 876 NEC. Graduated 7th overall in class of 50. Excelled in anti-insurgency tactics training. Performed average or below average in hand-to-hand and general leadership. Served in Odigos-Scorgian war from 880-882 as a Major in the 112th Armored Regiment. Recalled from active duty immediately after the Scorgian campaign to be recruited into Odigos Intelligence Agency. After two years of OIA training served as advisor to the general in charge of the Scorgian occupation from 884-885. After serving with distinction in this role given the assignment of infiltrating resistance cells across the continent.
Cover story bio: Enrolled in a prestigious military academy at age of 15 in 876 NEC. Graduated 7th overall in class of 50. Performed average or below average in hand-to-hand and general leadership. Served in Odigos-Scorgian war from 880-882 as a Major in the 112th Armored Regiment. Served in Scorgian occupation from 882-885 as a major in the 64th Artillery Regiment. Became disillusioned with the Hegemony after witnessing brutal occupation tactics against Scorgian civilians but was not permitted to resign. Chose to defect to Scorgian Insurgency in 886 NEC and has assisted several resistance movements in anti-government activities since.
SupaDudz
Affiliation: Hegemony Spy
Partner: Earth
Date of Birth: 03/07/870
Real Bio: Raised in an isolated community in the Tedpran mountains. Forcibly recruited into a local anti-government militia at age of 8 in 878 NEC. Took part in several small firefights against local garrison units. Captured by Hegemony forces in 879 NEC. Sent to an orphanage rather than a POW camp due to young age. Released from government care in 883. Tracked down the local warlord responsible for recruitment as a child soldier with intent of killing them only to discover that a Hegemony raid killed them just days before in a raid that left no survivors in 884. Worked odd jobs in the relatively impoverished region until applying to enlist in Hegemony military in 886. Application rejected by local recruiter due to history as child soldier but caught the attention of the Odigos Intelligence Agency. OIA agents made contact with opportunity to work as human asset. With help of OIA embedded as sleeper agent into Alliance of New Hope.
Cover story Bio: Sent to live in an orphanage in Tedpran mountains after parents were killed during Hegemony raid. Released from government care in 883. Joined local insurgency with intention of seeking revenge. Left as only survivor after an anti-insurgent raid against their rebel unit in 884. Worked odd jobs in the relatively impoverished region until making contact with local Alliance of New Hope safehouse, joined in 887 and quickly worked the way up the ranks of the organization using the skills learned during their time as a rebel.
Oromagi
Affiliation: Resistance
Date of Birth: 07/28/854
Bio: Born to a young couple on a ship while they tried to move to the western continent. Ship was turned away at port due to refugee quotas and forced to instead head to the Mesaia archipelago. Mother killed during air raid when the archipelago was annexed by the Hegemony in 858, father sent to labor camp on charges of conspiracy to assassinate the military governor put in charge. Sent to live in an orphanage, released from government care in 867. Became skilled in computers and moved to the mainland in 874. Hacked government database to discover fate of father, who it turns out had been killed in a fight with a fellow prisoner. Now a fugitive due to these illegal activities, used skills as a hacker to track down and aid anti-government groups from 879-886. Helped found Alliance of New Hope in 886.
RM
Affiliation: Resistance
Date of Birth: 05/11/861
Bio: Grew up as a street orphan near the Scorgian border before the Scorgian - Odigos war. Affiliated with a number of criminal organizations at an early age. Eventually joined local chapter of Scorgian Cartel at age of 14 in 875 NEC. Forced to flee the city after the Scorgian campaign and subsequent occupation crippled many criminal organizations in the region. Used skills as a drug runner to survive until contacted by Scorgian Insurgency in 884 to smuggle a shipment of weapons. Successfully completed the job and used resulting rebel contacts to join Alliance of New Hope in 888, citing desire to change the corrupt system that had forced such a difficult childhood and life.
Whiteflame
Affiliation: Resistance
Date of Birth: 04/51/856
Bio: Born only child to a minor aristocratic family and inherited fathers estate after their death by natural causes in 877. Lost significant portion of inheritance to unexpected downturns in markets of the western continent. Lost control of remaining inheritance to uncle in legal battle as a result after uncle argued in court that financial losses of estate were the result of incompetence rather than bad luck. Chose to flee central provinces in 879 after a servant revealed the same uncle planned a follow-up assasination to prevent retaliation. Ended up in the employ of the governor of a southern province from 879-884 until said governor was suddenly arrested and found guilty of conspiring against the Hegemony of Odigos. Fled once again after being implicated in the plot. Now a wanted fugitive, forced to join a secret anti-government movement among the nobility of the southern provinces. This movement merged with the Alliance of New Hope in 887.
PIE
Affiliation: Resistance
Date of Birth: 02/35/860
Bio: Drafted at the age of 19 in 879 NEC in preparation for the Scourgian-Odigos war. Never sent to the front lines of that conflict, instead stationed in various Tedpran garrisons to conduct anti-insurgency operations in that region. Deserted with squad in 881 after friendly fire incident resulting from the discovery that their squad leader had abused POWs. Forced to defect to a local rebel warlord. Provided intel on local garrisons in exchange for help in fleeing the region. Now wanted for desertion, murder, and treason. Families of everyone involved were sent to labor camps as a result of these crimes. Joined various anti-government movements in effort to locate and eventually free them.
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