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@PressF4Respect
If I didn't make that clear yet, yes. However, the Creator doesn't poof things into existence like most people may think there's a process. So my idea about creation fits with the processes we observe take place in our universe.
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@PressF4Respect
My position is that it's not a literal statement obviously, as in God's appearance. But yes, we are made in the image of God because we are a part of God and can be nothing else. Don't see how this relates to the questions. If this is going to be a Bible says so discussion be ready to be disappointed. There's many wonderful aspects of the Bible but it has a lot of nonsense as well.
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@PressF4Respect
God creates processes....that create physical forms.
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@PressF4Respect
How old is the earth?
Since creation is indeed a process I'm going with billions of years old. Personally I do not know exactly how many years, but according to studies that's probably pretty accurate.
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@TheRealNihilist
Why are we the one's that need our minds changed and not yours? did you actually prove something in your OP or in an argument somewhere?
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@TheRealNihilist
It is actually a waste of time if your aim is to change a conservatives mind.The only way you can change their mind
And how do we change your rigid mind? is it a waste of time to try and change your mind or your buddy Disgusted's mind? as far as I can tell the answer is a big fat yes lol. You guys are far more stubborn and closed off than I could ever dream of, but then again I keep myself flexible and open to all forms of knowledge and sources. So the funny part is that it would probably be a lot easier to change my mind than what it would take to change yours, assuming of course we are talking about something legit and not just silly assumptions like in the OP. All things said this is a sad topic.
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@TheRealNihilist
X true is true because my book says so.The only way you can change their mind is have them specifically tell you what their book says and listen to a contradictory position they hold to it while also putting a lot more effort in describing to them how they are wrong without offending them and them actually taking your critique seriously. Reason doesn't work when someone thinks God is real.I have found the defeater of this entire forum. It is all a waste of time unless we are friends and know what each other do outside DA so that we can use that as arguments in a way that doesn't offend the other person and they actually consider it.
Wow thanks for the opinions, very shallow and generic opinions and ones that get real old but that's all we ever get TBH. All assumptions, all pre-conceived notions not a single question or argument, pure biased opinion with no filter well done Nihilist another first class intellectual. Whatever you guys have to tell yourselves so you don't go coo coo. Next...
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@ethang5
I've known EV (etrnlVw) for years
We've been around awhile lol, heck I even had one account on DDO before EtrnlVw for four years.... Maybe one day we can reclaim DDO!
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@Paul
I'm a bit disappointed because you appear to be dismissing me
Nah, I'd be more concerned about you dismissing me. The way you phrased your sentence sounded a bit sarcastic. But if you are being serious we can discuss whatever you like.
What I want out of my spiritual awakening is to simply experience it and understand what it is.
That's all you need is genuine curiosity, and if you're flexible and open-minded you've won half the battle... Understanding it is easy (because it's just a matter of collecting data and knowledge) but you also have to apply logic and commonsense, in other words even within spirituality it should make sense even if it seems dynamic.
To experience it is something else entirely of course. This is more than collecting data....now instead you take that data and apply it and work with it, examine it and observe it. Experience is different because you have to be willing to reach beyond the mind and what you think you understand, believe or know to apply things outside your paradigms which might or might not include religious knowledge. Since your conscious being is what illuminates the mind (which is mechanical), you have to look outside the conditioning of it to explore what could be there.
Spirituality will stretch you this way because the Reality of the Creator is very vast so you have to be ready for that. This is why spirituality is more a cultivation, the more insight and experience that you have that God exists the more it changes your whole way of thinking and how you view life. The more you come to realize that God does exist and you are a part of that it changes everything you thought you were!
This is not just a mental or psychological game, because again remember that spirituality opposes the mind and even the emotions so you have to be willing to move beyond those factors. I've been broken so many times it's stupid lol, but I'm always trying to be aware of my own limits and emotional baggage.
You can't experience something outside of what you think you know which is the downfall of materialism and atheism, that's how the mind works it doesn't automatically receive information or frequencies outside its channel, it's more a memory bank and storage, a mechanical
compartment.....you've been fed everything you've perceived through this physical body and that's all you may be currently aware of. Luckily Theism is an objective Reality so truth and knowledge exist outside your created bodies and forms.
since the mind is mechanical and its perceptions influenced you have to get outside it's conditioning, be willing to explore numerous sources of knowledge, and then actually apply/interact.
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@zedvictor4
P...…... Thanks E.V. I'm getting the hang of it.
Wait....you didn't think that was actually genuine did you? Lol?
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@zedvictor4
E.V...….That's great P, you'll be fully spiritual in no time.
No, you didn't get it, that's sad. You must have missed "you are already spiritual by nature you can never be anything else".
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@Paul
So far I think you are doing pretty good. I feel a little unsure, but I think I'm beginning to get it.
Sure, work on that genuine thing pal lol.
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@Barney
I've tentatively written an update of:
Discussions of divinity, faith, spirituality, etc.
I like this, it fits better. You may still want to use "religion" in there though......so maybe..... Religion, Spirituality and Faith. ? Or since Religion is used as the forum Title it could say discussions of spirituality, faith and religious concepts....something like that? I just think divinity sounds cheesy lol.
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@Paul
Can you tell me about the rules and applications?
If you want something you have to give something, if you want something different you have to be willing to do something different. If you wish to have a change in your experiences you have to be willing to let go and allow change to occur whatever that may be. It is a give and take relationship.
However, I would be careful with your intentions because sincerity is everything in spirituality. In other words don't ask me questions with the intent to set traps or catch me in error, ask with the intent of true curiosity and the intent you really want to know or are searching for truth. Deception and spirituality don't mix very well and can have adverse effects so it is always best to be genuine.
That seems important if I'm going to start being spiritual.
Lol, you are already spiritual by nature you can never be anything else however it's your attributes, mindsets and experiences you want to expand. The point is to become aware of what you are unaware of ......on many levels. You can consider spirituality a cultivation if you will.
What are the fundamentals, what should I do to get started?
That depends on what you really want out of your spiritual awakening. There is more individuality than people might be aware of, albeit within an objective reality.
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@Paul
I've never thought about spirituality very much and find myself wondering what it is?
To put it in a nutshell (without any dogma attached) spirituality is the application and observations of that which transcends the physical sense perceptions. It's like any other field of knowledge or expertise only of a different nature. It is not a material object or something that can be demonstrated in a lab....it's a practice and lifestyle, it's a learning curve and a systematic method or experience.
I'd like to learn what exactly it is, how to achieve it, what the benefits are, why I should be spiritual and read about your personal experiences with spirituality.
Spirituality is like anything else you want to learn about or become, the rules and applications are the same but it involves your own participation. If I were to get you to play the guitar for example, I'd have to actually get you involved with one....playing one and practicing it. The only big difference is the very nature of spirituality, that's the main thing you want to keep in mind. From there learning is no different, since it's an objective reality you can learn and acquire tangible benefits from pursuing it...it's logical and commonsense, there's things that make sense and there's things that may not.
Actually what has intrigued me are my own encounters, more importantly the cross refencing is something to consider in spirituality. That is, the cross examination of encounters and experiences and on top of that my own.
I am interested in all forms of spirituality, not just those connected with established mainstream religions.
No reason to have a narrow approach to religion or spirituality, it all falls under the same umbrella. I call it the demonstrable body of available facts and evidence, some things are true but not everything within this arena is accurate. That takes your own involvement to observe. But if you were to take more of an Omnists approach you can include all of religion, spiritual paths, spiritual encounters and experiences...even NDE's and OBE's and in doing so you would have gathered more information than any other experience period, the data base is overwhelming! It's quite amazing really but then again we don't touch the eternal nature of God, there is so much to experience within an eternal creative Reality.
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@Stephen
The ultimate question is; why did "god" create anything in the first fkn place?
Simple, picture God as an eternal creative intelligence. Or just an eternal aware conscious reality. Now imagine that reality a singular reality... just like yourself when you get alone and close your eyes, the observer that is behind your physical form. God is a singular reality, meaning there is no mommy God, no Daddy God, no brother God or sister. This Reality exists eternally alone and permeates all of creation.
God creates to experience something outside Itself, and this happens through endless channels of awareness. God observes both through form and outside form. It doesn't really matter that it all comes from God, at least there is something to observe and do. God creates because there is an investment.
And the only ancient civilisation that has answered the question of; why did god create man? is the Mesopotamians. They tell us we/man were created as a slave species to do the bidding of the "gods". And for those who have missed it, the bible tells us similar.
Nah, the answer is very simple. God creates because God is creative by nature, same as you and I. And God wishes to express Itself and does so through creation on multiple levels.
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@Paul
So my question is, is the creator god?
Who else would the Creator be? but again, the proposition of intelligent design is not a purpose, it's a theory or an interpretation. However the actual process of intelligent design is for you to have an experience.
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The Creator is not a product of environmental factors like skin, you guys have to get more serious.
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Made in God's image reflects God's attributes not looks, the very conscious nature of the soul is made in the image of God and can be nothing else. Skin, race, genetics ect ect have no relation to that, at all.
God is not a black guy that exists within it's own creation lol, funny though.
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@PressF4Respect
God doesn't have skin, God does not have a race, does not have a gender. God doesn't have genetics that were passed down to God for the Creator to have any certain skin color lol, wow you guys are silly. Mixing up the created from the Creator.
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@Paul
Your question is nonsensical, the nicest way I can put it. Intelligent design is a proposition, a way to understand how our universe is put together as opposed to a counter view. It doesn't prove anything since it is a claim or theory.
It's an interpretation.
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@SkepticalOne
Evidence-
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
an outward sign : indication
something that furnishes proof : testimony
something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign:
A thing or set of things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: "
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@Paul
What is the purpose of intelligent design?
The only purpose is creation, coming from the standpoint of a Creator. To go from nothing to something. Or better put...go from a purely conscious reality to forms within creation.
What do we use it for?
To live, experience life.
What does it prove?
That there is a Source behind what we observe?
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@SkepticalOne
This means nothing to me.
Maybe read it again? it actually has some significance if you just allow yourself to think twice.
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@SkepticalOne
Evidence would be something that strongly points to a single conclusion.
That I explained already and very familiar with how evidence is defined and what it is for, if you need me to elaborate please ask, don't pretend I gave no answer why there's a good indication of "design", or better put creation.
Nothing you have mentioned rises to this level.
Lol, read that again. If there is an indication of a proposition we have met the requirements of evidence. That's how this works but sure...you can shrug it off I didn't expect anything else from you.
In other words, the appearance (or perception) of design is not design.
But, it's an interpretation. The indication that there is a Creator is strong, so yes the appearance of design could certainly mean exactly what it is. Unless you'd like to offer a counter argument for your own interpretation.
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@SkepticalOne
I don't personally subscribe the the notion that we were created by aliens or that we live in a simulation, but even still, these would not necessarily demand a deity - only a pre-existing and/or a more advanced civilization of natural beings.
The more dynamics involved the more likely there is a Creator than not, even in the case of aliens and a simulation. That should be obvious.
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@SkepticalOne
What is the evidence for intelligent design?
It's called an interpretation, it's the perception of the individual that interprets "intelligent" processes/design. Evidence is only an indicator of what is most likely the case, what does the available body of facts and or information indicate? some interpret what we observe (processes) in the universe as creation or an intelligent Source.
When you ask what is the evidence for intelligent design basically you're asking a persons interpretation.....basically processes don't occur without a mind or intelligence....energy acts like or produces intelligence or what we observe as processes, and processes as we directly observe them in our day to day are associated with sentience. Therefore to a Theist or Deist it's obvious there is a Creator, to an atheist they deem everything as purely natural, that something of no intelligence can produce something of intelligence. Both are an interpretation, one proposition probably superior to the other depending on whom you ask.
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@TheRealNihilist
All souls come out of the very heart of God as an expression, it doesn't matter what they like or chose to be. That is what makes creation magical, ignorant Theists think there is some line or barrier between what man does and what God thinks or creates lol, all things come out of a singular reality and there never could be anything else. That means there is nothing that distinguishes God from it's creation, ever. Everything that you experience the Creator experiences, this goes for every channel of conscious awareness, not just some.
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@TheRealNihilist
The thing is I am not the only person that exists. A gay person does exist. They have done it so God has.
Correct.
Yes I exist in the same reality but God has done it. Me living in the same reality doesn't actually mean I experience the same things. Do you have a problem with gay people being in the same reality?
Not at all.
This doesn't even address the blatant contradiction. I will keep pointing it out until you address it.
Please do so.
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@TheRealNihilist
If you don't suck dick then God doesn't, if you do, then God does. If you lick pussy then so does God. Pretty simple eh? the irony is that you exist within the same reality as a dick sucker.
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@3RU7AL
Theists love to debate using DEISTIC arguments.
Because Theists are Deists lol? Deism agrees with a Supreme Being, though the specifics differ its' the same foundation.
The "intelligent-design" case is the most prominent example of this.
Because we don't need a specific God for intelligent design, we just need a God. A God is a designer and creator. Doesn't really matter yet what the specifics are because we have yet to deal with an application.
The "logically necessary" prime-mover/sustainer is another.
No it isn't. It can be, but we have yet to establish that. God would be necessary for a created environment. That would be the first step. Then we could argue about which God interpreted is the most accurate, however not necessary.
**But theists are unable to draw a straight line from DEISM to their specific god(s).**
How? God created the universe, religion deposits there is a Creator.....the terms of use are irrelevant as of yet.
Atheists often fight tooth-and-claw against these DEISTIC tactics, but I would suggest they should stop fighting and embrace DEISM.
Atheists only fight one thing, that God or gods don't exist. Yet they do lol. Deism is a simple way to say God exists. Sure, that is irrelevant to religious claims but also relevant at the same time. It's both, some religions might not be a accurate as others but it all falls under the umbrella of creation.
Because DEISTIC gods are functionally indistinguishable from no-god(s).
No not at all, this is where you fail over and over. Because beliefs are everything, they form the very foundation of what you can actually experience. It's not just about beliefs but application. So the experiences differ dramatically from atheism, this should be obvious. What you believe in is a reflection of your own experience. If you want transcendent experiences you have to apply that reality to yourself. Why do you think Jesus distinguished great faith from little faith?? because one produces more than the other.
DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM.
Wrong, answer above.
Let's say, for example, that we found indisputable scientific evidence that life on planet Earth was created by Promethean gods. Intelligently designed.
You don't have the understanding that Theistic beliefs produce different results depending on the individual, I think that is where you are headed the wrong way on this one.
Clip of creation scene from "Prometheus" (2012), [LINK]
That is not a good example of God, that's more an example of an advanced alien race. Advanced aliens have no impact on our direct conscious awareness whereas Theism and spirituality may have or does.
This "fact" does absolutely nothing to inform our daily lives.
Wrong, worldviews frame everything including what you experience. Your very beliefs frame what and who you are and what you can encounter.
This "fact" does absolutely nothing to inform our system of government, our laws, or our sense of morality.
Sure, if you believe everything you wrote and believe God has no difference in experience.....that would qualify you as an atheist, not a Theist.
Basically, we're back to square-one.
No no sir, your beliefs frame what you are capable of experiencing, that is why they are so important. Even in Deism, the change should be dramatic, the difference lies in application. Religion, even in it's failures and faults can raise the level of what you experience.
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There is no such thing as an orthodox church or organization, as the Catholics distorted everything Jesus taught. What we really have is an orthodox teaching or Gospel, and an orthodox understanding. That doesn't apply to any institutions or claims of orthodox groups or clubs.
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@TheRealNihilist
Lol, there's nothing that you or anybody can experience that God doesn't experience. You are the channel for the Divine to experience anything and everything.
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@Reece101
So the whole thing about creating man in God’s image? More interpretation?
In some degree it's an interpretation, because it can't be taken soooo literal. The whole thing about creating man in God's image is pretty simple, it just means man cannot escape the mold he was created in and that "mold" reflects the same nature as the Creator, or the same image...…"image" not really reflecting literal appearance but more of an attribute thing... Something that would be very interesting to discuss in a real way. A general impression would be a good interpretation of that meaning not necessarily an exact image.
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@Reece101
How Does One Reconcile The Existence of God on a Debate Site?
One way to settle the existence of God in debate or to articulate an opposing view would be to correlate energy with intelligence (or the nature of) as the starting point or linking point, to begin the process of bridging the gap between worldviews and interpretations of evidence, correlating it with intelligence, and intelligence with processes, and processes of course are what we observe play out in the material universe. Simply put...If "evidence" is an indicator that a proposition is true or likely cross referencing and common sense are spirituality's (Theism) most effective tools... because we are correlating the evidence with a Theistic view of what we observe.
Remember that since science is a neutral study it's the interpretation of that study that makes the distinction in any case or theory even materialism or Atheism, as well Theism. And so we can use the interpretation of evidence to begin with to propose what is more likely or logical, or that what we observe through the scientific method (such as evolution) are the processes of a Creator because processes are associated with intelligence.
This isn't making things up or wishful thinking, this is correlating the evidence with what is more likely or more logical....what is the "evidence" an indicator of?
Again the point is reconciling the existence of a Creator in debate which is the point of the OP. We reconcile Theism by correlating obvious evidence with its propositions. For example using NDE's as support for the proposition that consciousness survives death, indicating that the claim of a soul is very likely or at least a valid claim. Another example would be as I pointed out above, that energy as we observe it operates as intelligence or through processes, and processes as we directly observe only happens through a mind, or an intelligent source ect ect...
That your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Despite what the majority believes, faith is not about beliefs it's about trust. Faith (spiritual faith) is trust and confidence in something, trust and confidence come through reason and experience, knowing and evidence. So....knowing and confidence in God is the power of faith, because that knowing and trust didn't come through believing in what man says, but in experiencing what is true about God through evidence and application. When a persons trust and confidence grows, that is their "faith" in that thing or something....and a person can't trust in something or have confidence in something without experience or good evidence/reason.
This is why Jesus of the Gospels correlates an individuals confidence with their faith in God, because the two go hand in hand, you can't have faith without confidence they are the same thing, only faith has a spiritual overtone. This spiritual confidence is what produces fruit or evidence, it's a spiritual tool to overcome obstacles, beliefs play only a small role only to bridge the gap between what we can see and what can take place or happen. Either way faith is an individual application, meaning that one can be a Theist and have no faith at all, and one can be a Theist and have much faith, because faith is about an individuals confidence in God. This is also not about religion per say, as a person who might be an agnostic concerning religion could have more faith than a believer in a particular belief system. Because again, faith is not about beliefs or religious dogma but trust and confidence. It's a universal element that can be applied to anyone.
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@Athias
I'm sure Outplayz knows there is evidence, he makes the distinction between that and "repeatable" evidence and even "weak" evidence. In that sense he's correct, usually with spiritual or paranormal type evidences (or even scriptural texts) we are dealing with a "non-physical" based evidence, so coming from a scientific approach it's not really "repeatable" lol, even though demonstrable when we evaluate the numbers involved. How many people know that 1 out of 3 people have witnessed or what they thought they witnessed was a spirit or ghost? that's alarming evidence. But, not repeatable in the sense we can test it, it's just mounds of evidence involving testimonies.
On the other hand, I do think he supports the notion that no particular "God" can be proven within the religious arena, meaning that the interpretations man has is only a reflection of that reality, doesn't mean that's all that exists. The Creator is an eternal creative force, that cannot be limited to basically anything at all.
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@Stronn
Yes, pretty much, although I n also curious whether any theist thinks they have a way to distinguish the two.What I mant was, what characteristics would we expect theisttic evolution to have that non-theistic evolution would not,and vice versa.If they both look the same, then in practice they are functionally equivalent.
If we are saying that the Creator uses the processes of evolution to create forms and embodiments then that is what we would see, why would it "look" any different? the point is that processes don't occur without intelligence so we begin with common sense, matter does not create consciousness or awareness ect ect. Theistic evolution would look just like what we observe through the scientific method, it's only that atheists and materialists interpret that process differently, without observing the intelligence within the processes of what we see currently. IRL (what we directly observe) processes occur by way of awareness, which generates a plan then an execution of that plan.
This is why I point out the very nature of energy and how it operates in creation....what it PRODUCES. This is your first clue, one that should be seriously considered. Energy produces intelligence, but energy COMES from intelligence, or rather it's intelligence behind it or what manipulates it to generate processes, despite all the misconception God doesn't poof things into existence, it's a process to get from pure awareness to energy then to creation. Now, why does energy even exist at all? what is it?? why does it produce things?
We are basically saying that non-theistic evolution does not occur, the processes we observe are established by a Creator. Energy exists because conscious activity exists, they are both eternal and they are not created or destroyed, actually they co-exist. Out of this comes creation, so it's consciousness=energy=creation. Creation is a process to get from one point to the other, we observe these processes through evolution. Evolution happens everywhere all the time in all states of awareness and conscious activity, the term evolution can be replaced with process and it's this process that first comes out of consciousness, intelligence or a mind, whatever you want to call that which is aware.
So it's not that it would look any different, not at all, it is by this very action that we observe as intelligent processes. I mean how obvious can you get? look at our own solar system...it just happens to have a huge heat and light source right in the middle, another dimmer light source (reflection I should say) so we can have nights without total darkness, we have the formation of giant rocks we call planets that orbit in patterns, the earth with oceans and land, all the right ingredients needed to begin to sustain awareness through form, create embodiments through evolution, and sustain souls that we can experience this planet. I mean you just have to look at as a whole, look how it all fits, if you just focus squarely on the actual process you lose the bigger picture.
This is not an argument to believe in the Creator, I'm just pointing out the obvious, the logical because it just happens to fit. It's intelligence that generates processes, not matter, that's looking at it azz backwards. It's first intelligence (awareness) then process (evolution) then the final product.
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@crossed
Gods moral system effect's us biologically.This disproves Evolution
Not at all, you just have the wrong idea about evolution and rightfully so! especially when it's mainly in the hands of materialists trying to discover what this world is all about. Evolution is just the evolving of embodiments and forms within creation, just like what you would see with any creator or artist which starts with an idea or inspiration, then medium then the product.
Creation of anything is always a process even with God, of course. Morals are a separate issue because they deal with the mental and conscious states of our creation, which is separate from the evolution of forms or this world, because both the mental and conscious states of man exists independent of the evolution of bodies and forms within this world. The evolution of forms and embodiments is just for the soul to occupy in specific worlds, such as Earth. The soul, which is equipped with consciousness and a mind first, came into the embodiments we recognize here on this planet but it existed before that.
You have both natural laws and spiritual laws, one deals with natural phenomenon and one deals with the moral or ethical aspect of ourselves. Ironically both evolution and the ethical/moral sides (spiritual) of creation are processes. In other words there is point A and point Z and all in between, so should you notice the process of your inner being. It's an evolution! don't fear that word because materialists and atheists use it to advance their agenda or worldviews. Evolution is as natural to God as anything is, because the Creator uses processes to create, which is why we see the intelligence behind those processes.
Don't forget what we observe through science is a neutral study, it's the one's interpreting that study to watch out for. Materialists don't even know they are observing the hands of God through the scientific method lol, pretty hilarious if you think about it. This means that science is just as much a part of the Creator than anyone might think, because science is simply the study of how the natural world operates or how God creates. In other words it shows you how God establishes creation, of course it's a limited study, because science doesn't have the ability to reach beyond the surface elements of this world or nature....that's where spirituality pick up the ball.
Morality is just the ethical nature the soul carries with itself through creation and there are laws that correspond with that, and that nature exists independent of the evolution of material bodies. But even the soul itself is an evolution, to where it is currently. Nothing to fear about that term, just note that it means a process to get from this point to that point.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Darwinian. He had the wrong ideas and was trying to force his worldview on a reality that God uses processes to create things.
If the Creator wishes to create form within the universe it has to come first through consciousness (intelligence), through the mind to generate a plan (universal mind), then to the isolation and manipulation of energy and elements (physics/chemistry) to produce what we observe as matter. God doesn't just poof things into existence, remember Genesis is just the idea or expression of creation it's not meant to articulate how the Creator produces what we see, and that's not the purpose of the Bible anyways.
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@Paul
No magic needed? Okay then, explain to us the physics of your god.
If you're talking about the very nature of God there isn't much physics involved in it's origin, the Creator is pure awareness, there is no matter or material that produces that first Reality. Conscious awareness doesn't need form or matter to be conscious or aware, this isn't magic it's just the nature of awareness. There is nowhere something exists where there is not awareness, pure consciousness is the first foundation beyond everything that exists, and everything that exists comes out from that first Reality including energy. Pure awareness is cyclical or eternal, it has no beginning or end, no starting point or ending point, it's a static fixed Reality. It's the beginning and passing of matter and form that have a birth and a death but awareness exists within and outside of that simultaneously much like the nature of electricity and energy, they exist within form and independent of form.
If you're talking about creation from the Godhead down it's basically consciousness=energy=creation. While awareness needs nothing to produce it or sustain it conscious activity does produce energy, and like both energy and consciousness they are not created or destroyed, actually they co-exist and are eternal. Energy exists because first an omnipresent conscious reality exists, it is this nature of energy that the Creator uses/manipulates to begin the processes of creating.....big bang, stars, planets, galaxies, solar systems to the establishment of environments for life forms to begin to evolve...ect ect….and you have what we see currently in this particular solar system of ours and much more beyond.
This is why it's important to pay attention to how energy operates in creation, it's a huge clue to why and how creation and Theism are possible. Energy acts as intelligence or produces intelligence because intelligence is first involved in that process. When energy was isolated and condensed to produce a Big bang it enabled the Creator even more medium to create with! but the conscious reality of God starts with energy...and then the physics, chemistry and biology behind all of our worlds.
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@Christen
Where does the burden of proof lie?
In your own participation. Spirituality is an individual cultivation, what I can do is give you answers not proof. It's up to you to decide what is true with my answers/arguments.
Is it the believer's responsibility to prove to the non-believer that God exists
No because that can't be done due to the nature of spirituality, however we can offer you information, experience and a vast range of knowledge that all pertains to that reality.
or the non-believer's responsibility to prove to the believer that God doesn't exist?
Lol well you can try, unfortunately that can't be done. Your responsibility is to be smart, open-minded and not controlled by atheism or any worldview. You don't disregard anything because you feel it's absurd. If you want to discuss or debate anything just ask about it. Don't get me wrong I'm always prepared to argue my positions just follow my posts, but asking for "proof" is just immature.
And.... a theist's worldview is limited by a 1000+ year old book called the bible/quran, and by lack of evidence.
Ouch, are you serious? you haven't begun to inquire about my beliefs, you haven't asked me anything lol. I'm an Omnist, I evaluate spirituality and religion as a whole, so we have to understand one another here. You do that by asking, this shaves off plenty of wasted effort and time.
What "corresponding evidence" is there that God exists?
That which correlates with the nature of a transcendent reality....religion, spirituality, spiritual encounters, paranormal, NDE's, spiritual texts/literature, OBE's ect ect….and everything that falls into that category. These are all evidence that indicates that this is an objective reality.
Neither does religion.
That is the study of that reality, of course it does although there is personal experience and testimonial evidence. Doesn't mean religious sources are always correct but that is where you have the knowledge that correlates with Theism. With your own participation is how you learn what is accurate and what is not.
I think we're both lost about what your so-called "evidence" is all about, and also trying to make the point that "spirituality" makes no sense.
Spirituality is a term used to describe the application and study of the nature of Theism, the evidence is what was listed. You can fluff it off, but when you're ready to deal with it we can discuss it. There is a science to spirituality of course it makes sense.
But, I'm not convinced you want to go there, unless you can prove to me you're not already brainwashed and that you are able to look passed the conditioning of your mind.
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@3RU7AL
Spinoza's God
“That eternal and infinite being we call God"
"Early in The Ethics Spinoza argues that there is only one Substance, which is absolutely infinite, self-caused, and eternal. Substance causes an infinite number of attributes (the intellect perceiving an abstract concept or essence) and modes (things following from attributes and modes). He calls this Substance "God""
Sounds like God to me lol...
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@zedvictor4
Your little list of errors is a little list of errors. In so much as every argument generally has a counter argument.
I see no errors in his little list. It's pretty straight forward, and accommodates the atheist mentality.
1. If a religion is false, then it's simply false. A god still might or might not exist.
Exactly, we agree here 100%
2. If you can't prove that a God exists, it's a good starting point for non-belief.
Wrong, an individual can't prove God exists, this takes the practice of spirituality, which is a cultivation. It's not a good starting point for atheists to deny God because they haven't connected with that reality, sorry dude.
3. Atheism is but one way of interpreting certain data.
Yes, and so is Theism.
4. A worldview interprets a greater amount data.
An atheist worldview is limited by materialism, they don't have any real say in the matter lol.
5. There is no real evidence of a God. Only human constructs.
That's where you drop the ball and no longer understand what evidence consists of...."human" constructs are what emphasizes that reality, just like anything you learn about dummy...
6. Atheism and theism are but two ways of interpreting the same data. Implications are resultant assumptions.
I agree, only atheism limits your output, period. They aren't the same equals in interpretations.
7. a) Misuse of the prefix.b) Theism is belief, atheism is non-belief. (Belief generally defined as acceptance without proof.)
Theism is belief based on the corresponding evidence.
8. Science is what it is, and therefore provides us with more rigorously scrutinized data. Allowing us a greater level of certainty and less reliance onassumption.
Science is universal, it doesn't have any say on the reality that God exists. Sorry.
9. Negative is multi-definitional and so it is difficult to discern what is being driven at here. Though if something can be proved it can, and if it can't it can't. As things stand neither the existence or non-existence of a god can be proved.
Are you lost? or are you trying to make a point?? The evidence that correlates with spirituality is overwhelming, anyone who ignores it is missing the mark.
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@3RU7AL
Look, True = Fact = Real = Exist = Provable = Indisputable
It does all by itself, that's the point.
To support the claim, "god(s) exist", you must make your definition of "god(s)" explicit.
Definition of God is universal.
Then you must make your definition of "exist" explicit.
Definition of God is universal...
Spinoza does this quite nicely. Certainly Spinoza's god exists.
Spinoza's God I have no quarrel with.
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@zedvictor4
God requires magic. That's the widest gap in the hypothesis.
No not at all, thanks for the assertion. God requires a process of creating not magic.
As I always state, all hypotheses start at 1 and ignore 0.
I don't ignore anything, thanks yet again for the assertion.
So explain 0 to God and I will start to take you seriously.
You want to take me seriously? or do I want to take YOU seriously? I think it would be fair if we found a common ground that we could elaborate on.
Awareness (consciousness) is what has always existed, it doesn't require any form or matter....in other words there is nowhere something exists where there is not awareness. This awareness exists first, this is what we categorize as God (intelligence)…. the Creator, it's the very process of creation and the manipulation of energy that we know explains why things exist the way they do, the way energy produces what we see currently.
"0" to God is awareness, consciousness, it is the very nature of God. That is the first reality, everything else comes after that.
It's consciousness=energy=creation.
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@Alec
If God doesn’t exist, how does the pope exist
A much better statement would be if God doesn't exist...how does Jesus exist? the Pope, any of them have no comparison to Jesus, not even close. Jesus was the one that resurfaced the face of religion, revealed another dimension/aspect of God, showed a much better way to view and relate to God. The way Jesus related to God was basically unheard of, it showed how one can be connected with such a reality it could be referred to as "Father".
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Upon this "rock" (confession, not Peter literally) I will build my "church" (people, not building) and the gates of hell will never prosper against it. In other words the confession that Peter made is what that principle was built upon, not Peter himself but his confession. This applies to everyone not just some stupid papacy. This teaching was for the individual as well as collectively, but had nothing to do with a literal interpretation. As a matter of fact it was shown in a few passages later how fallible Peter really was. Often time folks get hung up on the figurative speech of Jesus, on the other hand it's so simple it's a wonder how anyone screwed it up!
Even if Peter was to be interpreted as infallible how is it that anyone after him was to be considered the same?? that's not how spirituality works at all...they could be a total nutcases lol, the whole thing is ridiculous from start to finish. The Catholic religion is almost the opposite of what Jesus represented.
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@BrotherDThomas
Listen, if biblical truth of being able to own slaves is not conducive to your enlightenment and well being
Perhaps explain how enlightenment and well being are conducive with owning slaves ding bat. You can start there, this ought to be real good lol.
YOUR CONTRADICTING QUOTE
There was none.
Have you been given the forum monitor position in what is to be discussed, and what is not to be discussed?
We can discuss all kind of ridiculous, ignorant and self sabotaging topics silly, but what really is worth being discussed? if a persons character and topics have become too stupid to discuss it is what it is, and Hari meets that description.
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