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@Paul
No magic needed when one understands how creation is put together. "Religious" people is quite a wide range of people, it doesn't really address anything. That term could refer to the most dumb person or the smartest person, then when "religious" people start to make sense their propositions are labeled all kinds of things lol, like "God of the Gaps" and "making things up" or "trying to suit an agenda".....blah blah blah where does it end?
I can explain how creation is put together very simply from the Godhead down, it does not require any magic and it does not require any gap arguments. If God fills any gaps it's not because of any personal agenda rather it fills the gaps because it's a true proposition. Yal need to make up your minds.
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@3RU7AL
This guy is a smart fella you should listen to what he's writing. Don't miss the point, he's trying to give you a starting point where you can be more objective and open-minded about the nature and reality of it all rather than just being ignorant to it. You can label thing as you like but part of the problem is atheists rejecting what evidence consists of particularly when it comes to spirituality or Theism because there isn't some scientist or lab that can replicate something for them, it's almost comical but what we have to work with currently. Evidence is defined as that which is an indicator of something true, when you evaluate all the activity and evidence that correlates with that transcendent reality it's pretty obvious when you get down to it. One has to wonder why it goes over the heads of some folks, particularly the atheist camp.
It's more of an accumulation of everything involved which is more of an interpretation (not solely), however this interpretation is much stronger than what atheists tend to focus on. There needs to be some starting point, where we can have a better understanding about Theism and the nature of it, it begins with at least....at LEAST, admitting that evidence exists. Until then all these discussions and empty claims of "no evidence" will just be of no progression...it will just be atheists claiming "no evidence.. no evidence" over and over meanwhile the evidence (that which indicates something true) has been there all along lol.
You MUST, look at the evidence that correlates with the nature of God, or the Creator or whatever you want to call that.
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@Alec
If Jesus didn't appoint the first pope, then who did?
Lol the Catholics, or those who interpreted that teaching the WRONG way. Either way it was a misconception and a detrimental one, did you not pay attention to what I said about principles? go back and read that passage, was Jesus trying to establish a papacy or was He establishing a principle?
I´m not catholic but was raised that way.
Then no need to fall into that baloney, the pure Gospels are better than any religious concoction. Jesus never established a papacy, that was pure hogwash. Jesus came to tear down the power and control of religious authority, not build it back up.
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@Alec
Arguing with religious people is worse than with atheists but I'll say this and leave you to your own beliefs. Jesus never established a silly Papacy, rather a spiritual principle. Jesus never established eating his flesh and drinking blood, but a spiritual principle. The principle behind the passage involving Peter was a confession, it had nothing to do with Peter or his bloodline lol. The principle with "consuming" flesh and blood obviously was the understanding of application. Application of course means to do, funny how the Catholics attempted to solidify principles that could only be construed as understanding an underlying principle. What a shame, it's like everything Jesus came to break down religious goofs tried to reinforce.
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@Cogent_Cognizer
What will a neurologist do with your seizures in all honesty? I would never tell you not to of course, but again we're back at looking into symptoms, who cares we want to deal with the root cause. I can tell you how to reverse the problem, the cause. I'll send you link but I'd like to discuss it to make sure you are following the logic. Basically I'll send you a link to a video where you can have a link to the main channel. Each video will be relevant to your situation TBH so it doesn't really matter which one you watch.
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@RationalMadman
I want to know how a God that never poofs anything into existence based on you calling it absurd (and it seems, never destroys anything either)
You're getting confused between form and formless, forms can be destroyed all day long but not the awareness that fills those forms, they just move around like energy, from a singular reality and back into forms. When I speak of pure awareness or consciousness, I'm referring to the very nature of God, which is independent of creation and forms, meaning God exists within all of creation but also from a state of awareness that encapsulates it. But on the other hand I'm also referring to what temporarily is isolated to form, because there is no form without awareness, in other words there is nowhere something exists where there is not awareness.
is in any way itself able to be poofed into existence along with consciousness and energy.
Consciousness IS the Creator, are you being serious? I'm saying God is pure awareness, meaning without form. You're starting to worry me. And, then....the result of that first reality is why energy exists, its the conscious reality of God that generates energy. The conscious activity within your brain and from your soul also generate energy.
Now, when we are discussing God we're talking about mega scale, omnipresent. This omnipresent conscious reality can generate more energy than you could ever imagine, enough to ignite a Big bang. When energy is condensed and isolated to a small point the explosion that occurs is quite impressive, this explosion enabled the Creator access to even more material to create with. We actually are made of star dust, just only the physical body not the awareness that occupies that body.
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@RationalMadman
If poofing things into existence is absurd, why is it not absurd to think that there is a god and that things didn't just exist and transfer from the beginning of time with no organiser or creator?
Because it's absurd to believe that processes occur without intelligence. Again, we are looking at processes, and what they produced currently. That of course is why there is the proposition consciousness before matter. Meaning that matter never transformed into intelligence, other way around.
You speak of absurdity readily when discussing other versions of God and religious outlooks but when discussing your own, you forget the absurdity.
What is absurd about conscious awareness=energy=creation? that's a pretty basic foundation, not one that contradicts any religions.
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@SkepticalOne
First thing I notice is that you mean something different than I do by "spirituality". For me, spirituality describes a hyper-awareness of some aspect of the world and the sublime feeling it spawns. A 'spiritual experience' can be derived from a hike in the mountains, wind through the hair, a moving piece of music, art that begs for attention, a child's carefree laugh, etc (triggers vary). There is nothing in my spirituality that calls for a reality beyond detection, but rather it is realized when a particular part of known reality is utterly and blissfully captivating for a moment in time. It is wonderful and ...natural.
That defeats the role spirituality plays, that is not spirituality, don't care who defined it that way. The purpose behind spirituality belongs to the nature of the soul and it's true origins. What you described needs not the term spirituality. That term is designated for that which is perceived outside the physical sense perception. You can find all kinds of definitions for it probably, but the one that makes sense is the one that correlates with that reality.
Admiring God's creation can be spiritual, but I'm talking about the objective reality of it, not wind in the hair lol.
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@SkepticalOne
Hey! some idiot said something dumb about God so don't go wasting your time believing in such nonsense!! make sense? I thought it did! so why have any perceptions about God away from religions!! that's dumb!
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@RationalMadman
You just said it has no form, then you said it permeates all of creation, which would require it to have form that does so and operates via that mechanism.
It's original state has no form (pure awareness has no form), but like energy and electricity it's omnipresent in that is exists within form and without form. God has access to every channel of awareness yet everything exists within God.
Have you ever studied religion? Hinduism? have you looked at the term they call Brahman, same thing here no different. Only I'm taking you just a tad further, showing you why energy exists and how it works.
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@RationalMadman
right now you're paying attention to the screen in front of you, are you aware of that very quiet background noise? How about the feeling of your clothes on your skin? I doubt you were aware of those things, it would be a waste of your brain's energy to be aware of them while focusing on the screen, for starters. What is a person in a coma then? Awareness can be destroyed and regularly is, especially before you were born and after you die even if you're reborn.
That contradicts the evidence sorry. When a person is in a coma they still exist, if they were completely detached from that body that body would have zero animation/power. When a person is still connected to the physical body they will always perceive through that form, even when that form has been distorted. A person will still exist when they leave the physical body, soul and consciousness cannot be destroyed only the forms they inhabit. This can be plainly observed through NDE's, there is a show that specifies testimonies and correlates them with medical facts, NDE's occur even well after the heart stops and brain death. Brain death occurs after just four minutes of heart failure.
You existed before you were born, and certainly after. You just are unware of it because you're current perception relies squarely of the physical senses. That won't always be the case though.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Erection.
Oh yeah, the erection of subatomic particles lol. Creation is much like the erection of Legos actually.
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@Wizofoz
How would we know anything about God?
Well part of that answer comes from where you originate, how creation is put together. Another part is just like learning about anything, how would you describe your process of learning? it wouldn't be any different from spirituality, how does a person become academically inclined? can you explain that process in detail? then apply the same thing about God, about spirituality only with different sources.... replace everything single thing you ever learned about with God as the subject instead, same exact thing.
So, what would you like to discuss? what about God would you want to know?
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@RationalMadman
Awareness can always be destroyed,
Not at all, only the forms it takes on. Remember energy and electricity, they exist both without form and independent of forms, so is the nature of conscious awareness. Sorry about the single posts, just have little time to respond so I'll get to this as I can.
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@RationalMadman
The discussion being had is whether a God that never creates things, but only alters processes can exist in any shape or form that doesn't logically contradict the reality in which you're saying the God operates and controls things. We are not discussing whether consciousness and energy co-exist; everyone knows that they do.
Can you give me a single example of something being CREATED that had no process?? what is it that you are having such difficulties with? what we observe through science is how the Creator manifests creation. I mean I can't get any more simple for ya, I've broken it down to the nature of God and how energy operates. If you're looking for some magic I don't know what to tell you. Maybe join reality?
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@RationalMadman
You call me a joke in defence of me saying you have an agenda... Nice defence?
Correct, if you have any idea what this agenda is let me know. What agenda do you have? Don't project on me, you're the one that likes to start shyt.
If you say that consciousness has always existed, you concede that if something exists it in no way at all necessitates a creator. This then extends to the very reason you say God is in any way necessary and real; it isn't, we don't need a creator under your logical framework.
That's ridiculous, the framework starts with an intelligent Reality (awareness/consciousness). Everything comes out of the Creator, It's the first Source. That, should have been obvious in the little we've discussed.
If this is true, it in no way at all explains what came before consciousness or where matter came from. You say your God doesn't 'poof' things into existence ever, so then how did matter originate and why can't matter, like God and consciousness under your logical framework, itself have always existed?
You can't explain what came before consciousness, you're missing the point....that's as far back to the wall as we can ever go. Nothing creates awareness, awareness meaning that which has always been conscious independent of the beginning of this universe, there is no starting point to that, do you know what eternal means?
Close your eyes and meditate on your observation point, quiet the mind down and relax chasing thought. Notice your awareness has no perceived space around it, now imagine you have no body....this pure awareness that is your observation point is without form. It doesn't have any walls to bump into, corners to reach or dead ends. That is what God is, pure awareness with no form....much like the nature of energy and electricity.
As I've said...matter is the isolation of energy, energy comes before matter. Perhaps find a video on quantum mechanics for dummies.
Energy is present with a plethora of unconscious, inanimate activity too, like wind eroding rocks, the production of electricity and many other things.
Exactly, energy pervades all of creation, just like awareness. Remember I said they co-exist. You can't have energy without conscious activity. The conscious activity of God creates energy, it's just a by-product of that generation of awareness. Awareness exists at all levels, this incudes everything that is living, or even perceived as non-living. If energy is present, no matter the form, awareness is also present.
Energy transfer in the brain and body of conscious beings is an extremely tiny percentage of the overall energy transfer on Earth as we know it, let alone the rest of reality.
You are already an energetic being separate from the material body. You are what powers the body, you are that power supply. This energy is transferred to the human body because you developed with it, like a cage you are experiencing both the nervous system and the physical perceptions of the brain. But, your awareness (soul) is not limited to the physical body, it can perceive outside of that.
You say that the reason why energy exists is that it's present with conscious activity but that in no way at all is a reason for it to exist, just an interaction and codependency it has while existing.
No, the very activity of conscious awareness...generates energy...come on man this very simple. In essence they co-exist.
The complete lapse in your hypothesis to conclusion here is that you forgot that your God can't 'poof' things into existence ever, correct? So where did energy come from?
Already explained. There never was any poof into existence, these are your own terminologies. Energy is not poofed into existence, matter is the isolation of energy through processes. No poofing required.
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@TheRealNihilist
How about starting with proving there is a creator?I'll wait.
You're going to be waiting until your dead lol. Can't do that Omar and by now you should know some of the reasons why. If you want someone to prove there is a Creator for you start a topic. The idea with this thread is for folks to feel free to talk about the soul and God or the after life without any interference from specific religious views. Something I would assume atheists would find interesting. Maybe Janesix was right.
However, the only way I can prove anything to you, or at least give you things to consider is by discussing Theistic propositions with you until you're satisfied with the information. You guys act like babies when you demand someone prove something to you, it's like you lose all concept of what this platform is for. Debating isn't always about handing you some proof, sometimes we hash things out by DEBATING them, arguing the responses ect ect.
If there was some proof (while there is plenty of evidence) I could hand you we wouldn't even be having this talk. The evidence is about perception, looking at all the available angles and concluding (cross referencing) what it most likely true, add that with my own experiences and we have some things we can discuss. If you want to understand what the evidence is, it's an interpretation of what we see in scientific studies, the propositions of religions and testimonials which of course includes NDE's. Too much to go ever in one post so I'll let you decide if the OP interests you or not, if not sweet dreams.
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@RationalMadman
Oh I see, so energy just poofed into existence, God just poofed into existence, energy magically turns into matter when it suits your agenda and everything just 'works' because it suits your outlook. I see.
Wow, you read as good as Disgusted.
Suits my agenda? that's funny. So....no matter my proposition, no matter how I use the evidence to conclude what is true it's an agenda? you're a joke.
Remind me again, why is it that God can't poof things into existence but can only 'work with' them? Wouldn't working with the processes available include creation and destruction via energy transfer? Even if God only has energy available, if your hypothesis is that God can transform energy into matter and even consciousness, then God can indeed poof matter and consciousness into and out of existence as he/she/it pleases.
Again, first learn how to read what I say the first time. Consciousness has always existed, this is the most basic concept of God how have you not considered it already? consciousness comes before matter, meaning awareness has always been, it's ETERNAL....Energy is present with conscious activity, which is why it exists at all. In other words awareness (consciousness) and energy co-exist. Awareness cannot be destroyed and so neither can energy be.
Poofing things into existence?? now you're going into the absurd.
If you pay attention to quantum mechanics you would know that energy does create form, it's this manipulation of energy that is the processes of the Creator....evolution of forms and embodiments. Consciousness itself in the God state has no form, It's awareness permeates all of creation.
If you want to know how energy creates form I can send you a link. However I don't really prefer discussing anything with you because you act like a punk, you need to grow up a bit young man.
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@TheRealNihilist
I would say through perception and creativity yes
Explain.
A person develops their perspective and perceptions through their individual experiences. Since every one has unique experiences they are unique individuals. Pretty simple I think.
In case you haven't noticed individual people also have a unique way of expressing themselves, being creative and using their imaginations in what they do. This creative ability God imparted in souls is also what makes them so unique, this creative ability can go in any direction, it's entirely at the disposal of each soul what they want to become or how they want to express themselves.
So both perceptions and creativity are what make unique.
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@TheRealNihilist
Please explain your position instead of stating it just is.
When something needs explaining I will do that, if it's self evident then there is no need.
Is your soul unique? Yes or no would do fine.
Yes, in two ways, I'll explain below.
What makes your soul unique?
First the soul is an expression of God like when someone creates art or a sculpture. The very nature of the soul is not unique in the sense all souls have that same nature or are made from the same substance. Like paint for example, even though a painter uses the same medium to create many works of art the actual painting itself is unique because each painting is a different expression.
Second, the soul becomes even more unique because it's sent into creation as a seed (or baby) to develop it's own personality and perceptions through the experiences it has in creation. Each soul was created unique and each soul essentially becomes a mini creator.
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@Cogent_Cognizer
Indeed, I would agree. With these psychological "disorders" there is likely some imbalance in the brain that we are not aware of yet.
No no, we are completely aware of it, I'm not talking about the run around psychology throws at you. The answers are much more simple than you would know but you might have to apply some things. What would create an imbalance within cells and tissues? again what obstructs the flow of normal operation? this goes straight into what you consume and the nature and chemistry involved, when you consume anything you are directly interfacing with chemistry, this in return either builds or breaks down the structure function of cells and tissue. Can I send you a link, would you mind that? if you're getting into seizures and things like that we need to pull you back from that, it doesn't get better if you don't change some things. I can help you with this pretty easily.
Yes, this is something I'm considering is a real possibility and may be reality.
Good man. Unusual at that.
As for the remainder about a creator/god, I'm not ready to come to that conclusion and consider is a bit premature.
I'm sure it would be for you, but let's hash it out. Why not inquire here and now while you got my attention? what things do you believe that you can't accept or consider?
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
sure I understand what you are saying, that assumes a soul and existing before we existed on earth etc.
I think by now it's safe to say it's no assumption. You came into the physical womb and you will leave the physical body as well. When we consider the evidence it's not just an assumption, when I include my own experiences I don't need to assume anything. It may come across to you as an assumption, having no experience or considering the evidence involved but not for me.
If I existed before I existed on earth I don't remember or know of it, therefore I am the sum of my experiences
That would be untrue, everything before this life is still in your consciousness. But because you developed with the physical body your conscious state was temporarily isolated but none of your previous awareness has left. Actually when you leave the physical body you will feel like you're home, you will know and remember things. Since you were ALREADY a soul and a being before you entered the womb your not just the sum of physical sense perception, you were there before them, after them and long after them. But again, the point of the challenges and experiences we have here do impact a part of ourselves as I mentioned before, but to make things simple here you will always be you with or without experiences through the physical body.
if and when my experience involves recovering pre earth memories etc then I will still be the sum of my experiences. Afaik whatever knowledge and experience I had pre earth has no effect or bearing on my earth life right?
So your origins have no effect on who or what you are? if you were to wake up from a realistic dream where you believed it was reality what happens when you wake up from that dream? was the experiences within that dream all you were?? of course not...
If you committed to entering this world I would say there's probably some things you would want to remember....but you would have to exercise that aspect of yourself, since all your attention is squarely on the physical sense perception. More than anything, the main point I would like people to realize is that they don't just exist in this form, they came from God and were sent into the worlds of duality so any given soul could possess many experiences before this one, the soul exists independent of any form, it comes straight out of the heart of the Creator.
So it still stands I am the sum of my experiences I think.
Lol, fine I don't expect anyone to change their minds here, it never happens anyways! all this arguing and sharing point of views seems more like an exercise in futility.
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@RationalMadman
Nonsense. The creator does poof things into existence or it would have had absolutely nothing to work with to make the processes occur to begin with. The creator itself poofed into existence, after all.
Not at all, consciousness never poofed into existence, awareness has never not existed, it comes before matter and is eternal by nature. Energy exists because first awareness exists, in return energy is manipulated to create form within creation everything from planets, stars, solar systems, galaxies all the way down to minute life form, the structuring of matter to create the forms you see around you...hence evolution, what we observe through science.
So what the Creator works with is energy, and we know that is a fact with what we observe through science. Energy is not created or destroyed, so is the nature of God.
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@SkepticalOne
To be honest, I don't know what people mean when they say "God". Sometimes, an individual's religious beliefs help narrow a definition down
Yes of course, again I'm simply moving the discussion away from religion and hopefully just to the Creator, your origins and what all this means within creation. God exists independent of human constructs, religions are just mans interpretations of what we observe outside the physical sense perception mixed in with a bunch of things. Often times I see people discouraged about Theism or God because of the mistakes and complacency of religions/religious people.
- and there is typically a lot of (legitimate) baggage that comes with this understanding. When someone wants to talk about "God" outside of a religious context, it tends to set off alarm bells for me.
Wow, I am all for religions don't you read the things I write lol? My foundation is Christianity I can argue that all day long. But there comes a time to understand that there is a dual reality even in spirituality, that's why you see the misconceptions and cruelty ect ect. I'm just trying to move beyond all that. Spirituality and religions are just a way for souls to find commonality and community.
Hardly anyone identifies as a deist, so why would so many people want to advocate deism unless they simply wanted to sanitize their beliefs to make them less objectionable?
Why don't you ask me what my beliefs are instead of assuming what they are? Let me describe it not you.
So, let's ask the burning question here - are you REALLY advocating deism... No heaven, no hell, no 'revealed' deity, no personal god?
Those things exist but that is not all that exists. Creation is a multiverse, there's more than just a heaven and a hell. Hells are just prisons, just like we have here religion just uses that to control people, they don't really have a precise understanding of what a hell is and what it isn't. God can't be impersonal, God is within all of life and awareness, how could there be no personal element? if you are personal so is the Creator. You can't be something that the Creator is not, whatever you have the Creator has and much more.
I have not denied evidence. I encourage you to re-read my words. If you can show evidence for god, I'd be very interested in it. If
We're talking about the evidence that correlates with the nature of God, spirituality, religions, NDE's, OBE's, spiritual encounters ect ect all fall under the category which indicates a proposition true. We're talking about more evidence for spirituality than any other topic.
then intellectual honesty would be admitting subjective evidence without verification is (at best) evidence for one.
It's not subjective it's objective. Only of a different nature. We loom at the evidence that identifies with Theism.
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@SkepticalOne
Ok...what's the proposition?
To get into a discussion where we could argue the contents, agree or even collaborate. Mainly the proposition was in the OP. You guys are quite boring, makes one wonder why the hell yal visit such a forum. If you're not interested in discovering truths outside your own mentalities and conditioned minds I don't know what to say really. These things interest me greatly, which is why I stay open-minded to whatever is truth, whatever makes sense with the actual evidence.
Sure, I am, so long as Im not required to assume god just to have the discussion about god.
You can keep harping on that but I don't really care whether or not we start with that assumption. It was only to make things more interesting for the participants but it's not a must by any means geeze! When have you ever known me not to be willing to argue my positions?
No. That is not a fair statement. I personally think religion is unnecessary. Once we realize religion doesnt justify anything, we'll (hopefully) be able to more easily address innate human deficiencies that are often masked by it. That being said, I don't hate religion. In some places religious institutions are the community. Until a viable alternative exists, hating religion is to hate community itself in many instances.In short, "atheists hate religion" is a trope that isn't necessarily true.
Okay I concede and apologize maybe we could move forward anyways, it's just what I observe most of the time, it's just a general attitude mainly. Perhaps hate was the wrong word to use sorry about that.
I'm interested in believing as many true things (and as few false things) as possible.
The we've reached a common grounds, excellent. This should be a great discussion.
I don't want to believe things other people dubiously hold to be true - that's a good way to end up believing in false things!
That you will never hear from me, no sir. Spirituality is all about observations, and of course application. This is your nature and origins, there's nothing that will remain unknown to you. It's just a matter of understanding how to connect with that transcendent reality, be willing to look fairly at all sides and consider. I help you to consider things by engaging in either a discussion or an argument. Spirituality has a science behind it just like the physical world. This isn't about beliefs or imagination there is an objective reality involved, if you understand the difference in the nature of it. In other words this wouldn't be about the physical sense perception.
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@Imabench
Asks people to put aside their conceptions about Christianity and scriptures to discuss the idea of God
Exactly, if that doesn't interest you buzz off.
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@ludofl3x
By all means, please elaborate. In my view, and for no reason at all but humoring the discussion, I will ignore the reams and reams of scientific support this theory has
It's not really the observations of science that are wrong, it's the theories they assume.
This is where things get fuzzy, you see on one hand the Creator uses processes to evolve forms to where we see them today. The Creator doesn't poof things into existence there is a plan, process to get from point A to point B.
We can observe processes that fit in with intelligence in what they produce, we know processes don't occur without a mind or thought behind it (intelligence)....On the other hand the assumption that these processes are purely materialistic in nature is where the misconception lies. While evolution and Theism are completely compatible it's the nature of the origins is where some get confused, or more than confused it becomes a part of their mentality and beliefs/worldview unfortunately. This of course limits what they can experience.
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@Cogent_Cognizer
Let's see what you all think.
I'm prepared to articulate and explain anything here, so if something comes off as confusing just ask. Only so much I can say within a few paragraphs so I'll wait for you to inquire.
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@Cogent_Cognizer
One must ask, what does this mean then? These patients still felt a sense of self as do I when I dissociate or seize(been having recent seizures as well where I feel not in control of course). In each case, I still feel alive, that I'm myself, but it's as though the self is an outside observer to my body during this time.
Yeah you need to clean up my friend, you don't want to be having seizures because what's coming down the line is no good. Of course this has no real bearing on your actual conscious soul but you want to be well, you want your experiences through this body to be fun. Dementia, Alzheimer's, strokes are no fun!! you might have to get focused here for awhile I can help you in many ways if you were to be open about it. This all cab be fixed real easy, but you will have to be willing to reverse what is the causes of the problems.
What breaks down structure function of tissues, glands and organs?? forget the symptoms they are irrelevant. It's not the seizures that is not the cause of course.....everything in this universe is ruled by physics and chemistry including the physical body, cause and effect....so what breaks down cells and tissue? what side of chemistry is responsible for corrosion and deterioration? in relevance to the human body it's almost always the acid side of chemistry, acids. Where does that chemistry come from? obviously from what is absorbed or consumed by the body, what are absorbed and consumed? ahhh now we're getting to the causative factors!!
If one's connection to one's body is controlled by one's brain, then is the self not actually connected to the body otherwise?
Smart fella, you're on track here. Again having a defective body or parts is like dealing with your car or truck.. parts fail, things get dirty, things begin to malfunction but in reality even though it effects your driving it doesn't effect the one driving. The soul, which is what we call the self or consciousness is independent of any form. The reason you have a form currently is to isolate your experience, that's it. Once you leave this form you will still be conscious, and fully conscious indeed.
You are connected to the physical body though, once you entered the womb you became trapped, you developed with the development of the physical body. You were confined to the experience of the brain and nervous system, but since those are not your true origins you can also have the experiences that transcend the physical body. And since consciousness transcends the human form you will always be you no matter what form you take on. Even when you leave the physical form you still have yet another form, this would be called the subtle body or what people call a spirit.
And if not, why does the self still exist under such a circumstance? Is the entirety of the brain's neurochemistry what makes oneself the self? This can't be the case as those who lose such connections, like those with alzhemier's, still report to be themselves, albeit they lose functionality and connections in the brain.
Bingo, you're on it again. Good observations.
People who develop Alzheimer's, dementia or any kind of brain damage are subject to that interference while in that body, but it's not the deterioration of the "self"...the you, it's more like the self observing through a distorted image temporarily and of course once they leave that body they no longer have that distorted image. Even while experiencing that image in that body they can still have the sense of the self, because the self is still actually intact and fine and even though they are deteriorating on the outside they still know from the inner they are what they always were.
Let's see what you all think.
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@Cogent_Cognizer
But, let me explain something here. I'm someone with a dissociative disorder, sometimes experiencing what is known in psychology as "depersonalization".
Yeah detachment, it's not always really what people would label a disorder. At least not a disorder of the self or that somethings wrong with you, there can be an imbalance within the physical body sure but if you know the truth about consciousness, the soul and how creation is put together your experiences would make a lot more sense.
There are the good and bad side of pretty much everything while in a dualistic environment, and while psychology is needed so that we can improve our understanding of things it also has it's bad side, that's the side that doesn't really know the mind and emotions.... and don't even know what the brain is and what the roles these play in the self experience. So as far as understanding the nature of why we experience certain things they are lost chasing rainbows, and so is their "treating" of symptoms attempting to medicate them.
Often times what people label psychological disorders and or mental illnesses are simply imbalances and the conditions of the organs and glands, clean those up and your operation and functions return as normal. We can get more into that side of it if you're interested but don't freak out over having out of body sensations, if you knew what you really are and that you are only inhabiting a physical body these are perfectly normal, your observation point is separate from the physical body although you are temporarily connected to it.
What you want is to get the physical body back in balance so you can "feel normal" again lol, this is simple of course, you just understand the nature of chemistry and the role foods play in the condition of your bodies health and wellness in your experiences through the physical body and focus on what it takes to renew them. I'll send you a link if this would interest you.
So, during such occurrences, the best way to describe what is happening is that the "self" disconnects from one's body. You essentially become an outside observer to one's own body.
Bingo my friend, and I will yet again reassure you not to think it's something strange going on, when you leave the physical body one day you're going to have the same out of body experience anyways. We can discuss how creation is put together, meaning the TRUE nature of consciousness and how the Creator isolates your experiences through forms.
This is very important that you consider what I'm going to say though, be a little open-minded here and everything should make sense for ya.
If you were to study NDE's for example, you would probably find some similarities in their encounters, especially when they exist the physical body and become the outside observer. The big difference of course is that you haven't fully left your body yet, you're more like oscillating from one state to another meaning your observation point sometimes withdraws/disconnects from the body almost a vehicle slipping out of gear...... basically your consciousness is alternating between your human body and your soul and in doing so you have the "OBE" experience.
The reason you can have these experiences is because your conscious being exists independent of the human body you are currently maintaining, believe it or not the soul is not restricted to just the perception and senses of the body. The reason you still know you are the self is because that physical body doesn't dictate your being even when it malfunctions, it's only role is to confine your experience to this world. And to do that you have to have a physical body that is compatible with the physical world.
There was a recent groundbreaking study in neuroscience about a year ago looking at patients with various disorders which caused involuntary movement or a feeling of a loss of free will, which seem to have pinpointed a region of the brain responsible for feeling "free will" or like one is in control of their body.
Lol yeah it's always a "region" of the brain right? always looking at the effects and not the cause. That's the problem with this field, it's the same problem we have within the scientific community and even in the AMA. That would be the misconceptions and falsity of materialism. They are always chasing the effect and never understanding the real origin of things.
The brain is just a component, it doesn't actually create anything it confines, isolates, conducts, limits ect ect just like electrical components on a circuit board. Sure you can hook up little instrumentations and observe activity within these components but they do not create the current of electricity they only restrict that flow while it is within that panel. We will always be able to detect activity within the brain, that's a no-brainer....because you are an energetic being, you are what powers and animates the body just like a power source. Once you leave the physical body that power source is gone from that limiter, it remains with you the self.
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@Imabench
Think you could put on your training pants for this thread instead of your diapers?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Nice post man FULL STOPOk Now i have to act the fool.I did what was asked in your post. Playing pretendy's is my thing. You know its my thing.hey?Ok so. ' takes deep breath 'Gone. no bible.No bibleNo bible .And bammmmmmm , No religious groupsNo religious groups.Everyones the same .All are the sameNothingNothing .Andddddddddddddd.
Let it go, what do ya want to kno bro???
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@Stronn
First, do you mean that there is just no Bible, or that there is no religious texts of any kind?
Either way, I'm just trying to stimulate people beyond the defects of the "Holy"Bible or the mistakes of any religious cultures or religious beliefs. My point in doing so is to move the conversation beyond that why? because the relevance between the individual and the Creator goes beyond that.
If you mean no Bible, then some other religion would have the place of Christianity. If you mean no religious texts at all, well, I doubtthat is possible given human nature. If there were no religious texts, someone would come along and write someto fill the void. So in that sense you question is academic, since such a state could never exist without afundamental change in human nature.
Maybe you should reread the OP. All I'm asking, is if you are offended by the Bible let it go, let's discuss God without it. Very simple.
But if for some reason there were no religious texts, and no world religions, yet God really did exist, then I wouldapproach the question of the nature of God the same way as any other inquiry of nature. I would ask what wecould infer about the nature of God from observing how the universe works.
This is simple and you should understand this real easy, observe the nature of energy and how it operates within creation. This takes more than the conditioning of the mind and what you have been led to believe or accept.
You should be looking at how the universe has unfolded and asking questions not accepting baloney. If energy acts as intelligence, meaning that it creates things through processes right in front of our faces, then why is it so absurd to consider that an intelligent Source uses energy to create what we observe in the universe?
Why does energy exist at all? why does it produce intelligence at all? here's the answer to the first question, energy exists because conscious activity exists.
Wow, what an assertion huh? lol. not really think about it just for a moment.... when you look at everything involved it fits perfectly. We know for a fact that conscious activity produces energy, we know that energy acts as intelligence in what it produces. Energy is proposed it's neither created or destroyed, we know that God is claimed to be neither created or destroyed. But...if energy is present with conscious activity then once again it fits perfectly.
For one thing, we wouldprobably infer that he does not take a very active role in events, given that so much in nature seems random andcapricious.
It's the nature of creating things, it's still all a process. Common sense point to the fact that processes occur with the mind or intelligence. Otherwise your out in space again making up impossible scenarios. What we see are processes, not randomness. But either way creation doesn't have to be perfect, this is the outskirts of God's creation. This realm is ruled by physics and chemistry, by death and life. As you move into the inner planes, there's less imperfections because there is less of the material worlds which dissipates in "time".
We would conclude (if anyone would think to pray) that God either does not hear prayers or does notcare to answer them
This is the big misconception about prayer and God. God doesn't sit around answering prayers and not, that's absurd. Prayer is an individual element, and it's based on principle like natural laws. Meaning you can say it's impersonal, because the relationship is based between the individual and spiritual laws, Not God per say. Just like natural laws, they work only by principle or application. Same thing with prayer. That's why the studies of it are inconsistent. Of course they would be, because one can't pray they be healed of cancer when they smacked their kid around a few days prior. Just as an example of course, all things must align in order for that principle to work. You can get this in the Gospels as well if you pay attention.
given that they are no more effective than non-prayers. There would be no reason to think that God wants our worship.
I never said anything of the sort, that is why I made this topic to discuss this without religious dogma. Come on man...
We would likely conclude that God does not care to alleviate suffering, or forestall death. As for the latter, we could conclude nothing about life after death due to lack of evidence. There would be no reason to expect God to provide everlasting life.
This is the lowest part of creation, it's not meant to be perfect. There's many reason why this plane exists the way it does, but I'll let us get on some common ground before I proceed.
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@SkepticalOne
Why? I mean, we might allow this assumption for the sake of an argument, but you are proselytizing rather than making a logical argument.
Not at all what a silly claim, I'm prepared to argue, why would you think otherwise. But for this topic, why not change the rules a little bit? Is no one interested in discussing God apart from religion? on one hand, atheists hate religion. But when pressed to engage in this topic without it it's complete silence. Why come here day after day, year after year to just remind people how dumb there are to hold Theistic beliefs just because you can find errors within scriptures lol? what is the point? do you want to know about God or do you have no interest in that at all?
That being said, I challenge the requested assumption. Let's not assume a god until it can be legitimately established with verifiable evidence.
It has been, but again this is about perspective and perception. To deny there is evidence is simply intellectual dishonesty. Before you respond go google what evidence is defined as please. Then again if you're not interested in this topic see ya son. Actually you didn't even need to comment at all.
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@keithprosser
If you ditch scriptiure then it's hard to know what is meant by the word 'god'.
Why? How about something really simple, like Creator? of course we can go into any depths, but let's start easy...
I suggest there are two schools of thought. One holds hat consciuosness is fundamental an the material universe was brouht into eistence by sconsciousness
This would be universal in Theism I would think, because it's also true. If anything falls outside this description I'm afraid it doesn't belong within Theism or spirituality, it doesn't even really fall into the category of reality or our experiences. You can argue it, but it's pointless.
the other schoolholds that matter is fundamental and consciuosness arises from a serendipitous arrangement of matter.
But again, this is the weak version, you know why? because of the EVIDENCE! only atheists include evidence into their conclusions if it has nothing to do with a Creator lol. So frustrating. Just using pure logic alone, does it makes any sense at all that consciousness arises from inanimate sludge? which of the two above sounds more likely? this time I want you to ignore the conditioning of your mind, shoot for natural intuition and common sense here if you would. Not dismissing all the evidence that correlates with the proposition that consciousness (soul) survives death.
Why would anyone fall for the inferior proposition?
Not many questions or inquires here, don't get lazy on me Keith.
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@janesix
I think that God gave us a puzzle to figure out
Really cool way of putting it. Mysteries are interesting right? especially when you begin to put the pieces together and things begin to fit in place.
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@Harikrish
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@janesix
Yeah but why not try? nothing else good going on in this forum. People love to babble about the Bible all day long, why not try something new?
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@BrotherDThomas
The ONLY God that would still exist WITHOUT said God's writings describing Him or Her, is the Deist God concept.
Give God whatever labels you want, God still exists apart from writings...can be experienced apart from writings! Amazing people can't get such a simple truth.
It would be comical to watch your proposition in use
One way to find out.
Start with anything you wish to know or understand. Otherwise buzz off.
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@Harikrish
I am a Vedantist raised in the Vedantic tradition and trained in esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic Fundamentalism.
How many times can you repeat the same thing? I know exactly what you claim to be. Did you think I forgot six years or more ago your silly title lol? geeze you don't get do ya? I don't like stale baloney.
My concept of God is all encompassing.
Sometimes I wonder if you even embrace a concept of the Creator. Is everything you do and say generic? or do you actually believe it?
It includes Karma, transcendental aspirations and the quantum consciousness driven entanglements in our realm and beyond.
With your behavior one would have to wonder again do you actually believe in Karma or is it just fun for you to repeat such sentiments?
Scriptures keeps us grounded because it deals with the problems of the one, many and others. Our experiences, perspectives and developments are different. Language is the great unifier.
The problem with this is yet again, it doesn't match your actions. So it comes off as just another generic fun thing for you to say, not do or agree with in a real way. There is nothing unifying or grounded about Harikrish, he is a lost little soul in a reality where he doesn't really apply or get anything.
I think therefore I am.
Wrong Hari, it's I am therefore I think. The one comes before the other, whoever thought of that statement didn't think real hard lol.
As a Bible scholar and a spiritual leader the means justify the end. If you are distracted by what you see it is Maya.
No Biblical scholar and certainly no leader, is everything you claim just stale baloney?
I'll tell you what, I'll give you another chance to ask a question or get out of your false persona, even the prideful Harikrish needs some answers. Give it a try, let me see something real, only I really doubt you will ever do that. Bye bye.
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@TheRealNihilist
It's common sense, try getting it first and then asking something different. That's how progress is made.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
My only point was that you aren't those experiences, so you aren't the sum total of experiences, you are observing them. Meaning in reality they are irrelevant to your origins, you exist with or without them. Sure they can change something about you, your mentality, your character, your attitude ect ect but a lot of people have the wrong idea about what and who they are. You would be surprised that people actually think they are just a stream of thoughts, neuron firing and an accumulation of experiences, that's not so. Experiences are just something to play with.
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I've tried this before but didn't get a good response but let's try it again. Pretend the Bible doesn't exist and all the little things you hate about it and religion, while we're at it let's assume God exists just for this thread. The reason for this would be so that you can concoct questions and ideas about God without the judgement of the Bible in the way. Believe it or not the Creator exists with or without the Bible, in other words the Bible doesn't dictate anything. What it does do in many cases, is give you some ideas and clues about the mysteries of spirituality however perfection is out of the question so at some point you will need to get over it. But....if it's something that annoys you and you can't get over the mistakes within it then all is not lost, the Creator still exists and so is the nature of your being to understand that reality. Forget about it for just this moment, let the influence of Christianity go...let's get a little deeper in this topic, give me what you got, questions, arguments or ideas about God and the soul that have no relevance to the Bible.
I want to do this because often times the Bible get's in the way of what could be great inquiries and discussions, we spend far too much time debating errors in that literature. Far too much wasted time in religious forums all over the internet with the wrong understanding and misconceptions because of what religion has done in the name of "God" and some of the stupidity within religious texts.
You, as an individual soul still have an origin and a purpose within creation apart from all that baloney, the Bible is just a source to find a connection but it's not necessary for your involvement. Feel free to be creative and limitless in your inquiries. If you can't seem to get over the follies of religion and the Bible then don't comment or respond, just go to the next thread about the Bible! This topic will be directly about the Creator without religion or scriptural texts involved. Fun right? yes it is give it a go....I'll do my best to just speak plain truth and relevant facts without any specific reference to any religions, although some things may be unavoidable because there are many facts about God within such texts.
But again, this is not about religion or the Bible and I am not pressed to push that on you.
I do have a real passion for atheists in general, so while religious people can participate my heart is more towards you guys (atheists).
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@Dr.Franklin
There is nothing in scriptural texts that I'm unaware of, that is not the point I'm making. Religious interpretations and scriptural texts don't make God, God being an eternal Creator not only predates religious scriptures, but is far more dynamic than any scriptures could ever dictate.
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@Dr.Franklin
I always do, what's the point? God existed well before any religious interpretation, there is no argument about that.
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@Dr.Franklin
Lol yes son, the Bible was accumulated well after God's existence lol.
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