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Evolutionists/Atheists what if what you thought to be a natural phenomenon was actually a conscious process manifested by a Creator?
If it's possible, why have you counted it out? keeping in mind that there is no lack of evidence, rather a misinterpretation of the process.
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Have you counted out God as a source for the origins of our existence because of what you trust to be purely "natural" processes, AKA evolution?
Evolutionists/Atheists what if what you thought to be a natural phenomenon was actually a conscious process manifested by a Creator?
I'm looking for more than a "God is not needed" assertion (for this topic) because I will be positing that the actual processes are put into action by the Creator. I want to know if you think it's possible that the processes we observe in our universe through science could be compatible with Theism. If it's not possible, give me your best reason why.
If it's possible, why have you counted it out? keeping in mind that there is no lack of evidence, rather a misinterpretation of the process.
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@janesix
Dreams are cool because if you pay attention to them they can offer insights about your self or your circumstances especially if they are reoccurring. Not sure about animal "guides" but animals in dreams are symbolic, they have a definitive meaning they aren't really literal. Often times you can do an internet search and get the basic meaning of animals in dream states, there's an incredibly vast database on dream symbolism and animal dreams can have more than a single meaning. The subconscious is always speaking to us and dreams are no different, perhaps sometimes more vivid because our attention is on it while sleeping whereas during the waking state we are distracted. So dreams come in codes and symbolism and they are there whether the person is conscious of it or not.
Animals are used as a good analogy because they have definitive attributes, habits and routines. They always act accordingly to how they are to survive so they make for good instruction if one is listening.
I have reoccurring dreams of Grizzly bears not real familiar with the reindeer though, sometimes reading a few variations helps make it relevant to your life.
Here's only one I found interesting....
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@janesix
Certainly fine, remember though this will be something you can physical observe not just blindly follow, in other words first hand experience what works. You can't do that without applying it.
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@janesix
When you fast with fruits you don't deprive the body of nutrients, actually you're eating much more pure and clean, fruits are superior to any other food source this should be pretty obvious. Don't let any loonies try and discourage you from building yourself up. Even plain fats are beneficial because you're letting your body rest and cleanse itself, but it's not needed when you can consume fruit.
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@janesix
I would combine the fast with being more aware and conscious of your mind and thoughts, keeping your attitude grounded by putting more effort into settling yourself, controlling your reactions and thought patterns of negativity.
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@janesix
First start with just single meals if you want. Like skip breakfast and eat nothing but really ripe, sweet fruits, melons, berries grapes ect ect. Then try to replace two meals, see how you like it and then eventually try a whole day and go from there.
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@Paul
Religious people often seem to be at odds with science because they believe it threatens their religion.
Not really, they just happen to disagree with a materialists worldview, which is often times pushed by atheists when they misrepresent science by associating it with atheism or materialism. Science and Theism are compatible.
What I am wondering is, do you ever wish you lived in a world without science where your religion could flourish unimpeded?
Not at all they are both compatible because they apply to two different natures of our experience, they study two different things. We need both to understand the full scope of our existence not just one or the other. What needs to happen, is that everyone understand SCIENCE studies the natural (material) world, it makes no claims or rejection of the Creator. Spirituality and science equally apply and are equally relevant.
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@janesix
Retreats are fun and I would never deny their benefits just remember you never need to go anywhere to be with God, you are the door to the eternal Creator there is no place you can find God. The Kingdom of God is within.
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@janesix
maybe i will do a fast.
Yes! like I said it doesn't have to be a dry fast, you can fast with fruits which are the most nutritious and energetic foods you can consume so it will clean you and give you high energy. It will also help with your discipline mentally because you are practicing self restraint and dealing with cravings.
By constantly doubting yourself it will also make you hesitant to extend the knowledge that you've acquired and trust to be true to other people who need your answers. Not knowing that when you do give people truth (your truth, not others) it builds your own confidence because you are giving others truth, when you give others your best the energy that lifts them up also lifts you up. So be confident in who you are because you're needed in this world big time but work on your discipline, don't get spiritually confused because of the mind and emotions just practice getting stronger in those areas. You're one of the most spiritual people I know, it's not really in how you think of yourself it's your natural intuition and flexibility, your willingness to understand the Creator. Don't ever forget your worth before God.
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@janesix
I am spiritually dead and it is my own fault
Perhaps, but guess what that means? you have the power to become spiritually alive and awake.
Well I wouldn't say this to all people but just to you right now in this time of your life because I don't think you're some spiritual infant really or someone who doesn't know anything or have yet to thoroughly think things through, so it won't be a bad thing because I know you are an objective thinker already.
But as I said before it's time to put all that head knowledge of yours to practice, I think it's time to lay aside the skeptical approach/attitude if you haven't yet already. Knowing that you don't just accept things and you use commonsense just relax and embrace your spiritual position and what you've learned over the years, don't fight it rather work with it. Know that you are not missing anything, you just want to connect with something and perhaps feel like you're making some kind of progress. You have made progress though, but if you're unhappy with your frame of mind or negative disposition only you can change that, it's not a lack of spirituality but discipline.
You have all the knowledge you're just weak in the mental and emotional game not necessarily your spiritual game, know that you don't have to conflate your state of mind with your spiritual self too. You can actually be very far along spiritually because if you think about it it's really just knowledge, and a lot of times knowledge that can be applied. Even though spirituality will help the individual get stronger and wiser it's all a process, eventually your knowledge will coincide with your lifestyle but you have to put your attention there, just know that it's all in your control and within your abilities and there is no pressure for you to succeed. You will always be a part of God no matter how the chips fall, you can never mess that up.
Health and spirituality go hand in hand as well, because they both can maximize your well being in all aspects but not without you putting them in action. You hold all the keys and you have all the doors available to you. Try practicing some discipline, like small fasts (fruit fasts) and getting away from thought (the mind). These things will only serve to empower you and gain confidence where you are weak. But don't get caught up in the idea that you are somehow spiritually forsaken or lost, you ARE that and can never be anything other than a beautiful, magnificent spiritual being.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
My mom used to claim to see ghosts.
One out of five people have seen ghosts, perhaps much more than that.
She also claimed that she had dreams about people before they died. The funny thing is how there was always a more logical explanation and she always jumped to the supernatural one first.
So there's a more logical explanation than the fact that your mom (assuming you trust your own mom) actually saw a ghost and had strong intuition about other people? maybe you are just being biased? you're mom obviously jumped to the supernatural first because I'm guessing she knew the difference between something material and something spiritual.
I thought nothing of this as a kid, and even claimed to have strange things happen to me as well. When I got older, I was able to explain all of it with ease.
You mean you were able to blow it off with ease? I don't doubt that at all.
It wasn't spirits talking to me. It was me being indoctrinated and seeing what I wanted to see.
It has nothing to do with what people "want" to see, when I saw them that was the furthest thing on my mind, I did absolutely nothing to instigate anything and your mom didn't either and actually I had no idea they could be seen by average people. This is something we all must face, as I said we are all leaving the physical body and you will see first hand what a subtle body is. Or, you can ask questions and understand it right now, perhaps even experience it.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Well you can't say that you've seen a ghost because you don't have anything objective to compare it to.
Should I actually entertain this nonsense lol? come on dude, you can't be serious right now.
You seen something and you don't know what it is so you call it a ghost because it seems to fit the bill.
OMG, why don't you try asking questions instead of asserting things? you seriously think I don't know that when I see a spirit I saw a spirit? that's a bold assertion there.
While what you seen might have actually been seen by you, that doesn't make it a ghost. What if it was just something that looked like a ghost, but really it was some other incorporeal being. What if it wasn't a being at all?
Oh wow a question what do ya know! but not really a sincere question, first you're already doubting what I observed before you asked me. Try again without the nonsense before it. In other words, just be courteous.
What if you just witnessed dark matter for a moment? I mean, if we're assuming that unseen things can be seen sometimes then why does it have to be a ghost? It could be a lot of things that we normally don't see.
Because number one they were beings, not objects and not shadows, not a dream and not something out of the corner of my eyes. I saw their features and I saw them move, I observed the subtle forms they were in. I saw them directly, one was about ten feet in front of me, I really don't call them "ghosts" they are souls, beings, spirits.... They look just like people describe them, no doubts about it. Actually I've had many spiritual encounters all different types not just seeing ghosts.
Maybe it was a bundle of neutrinos(those actually can blink in and out of observation). What if it was a hole to another dimension? This is why I say you need to not skip steps. You're leaving the door open for vacuity.
I explained all of this I never skipped any steps bro, did you read anything I wrote? they are from another dimension, but they still have an energetic spirit body.....I explained how all of that works, perhaps go back and read because they aren't rules they are how the subtle body operates. If you want go look up the term yourself.
Well when I said rules, I was talking about natural laws. Which are just descriptions. Since ghosts don't have solid evidence behind them, we have no descriptions to go off of. Therefore, any "rule" that you profess has no justification for being right. At best, it's just your hypothesis.
That's absolutely absurd, and really the problem with this conversation so far. You come across to me as a pretty objective, rational person, only when you move into the spiritual arena all that flies out the window.
So it's not that people don't understand what evidence is. But when people ask for evidence, there's a contextual implication that they want the evidence to be sufficient to either justify the claim or at least send people on the right path. Testimony accomplishes neither of these things. Technically, just about anything could be evidence. That's not the problem. You need sufficient evidence.
Actually it was your assertion there was no evidence, and as of right now that's what I have been challenging to put you on the right path, after that I challenge you with my own observations to answer all your objections sufficiently but you must allow me to do that and stop doubting it.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
When I spoke of speculation. I was specifically talking about the rules that you said ghost have to abide by. Not necessarily the rest of it.
Again, not rules, what rules did I say? The only thing I recall explaining was the nature of the subtle body (spirit body). It should be pretty obvious that a ghost has limited interaction in this world without a physical body. This speculation thing you need to get a grip on. You need to understand the subtle body if you want to make sense of ghost sightings, why and how they can exist and why this even happens at all. If you're not interested I have no idea why you created the topic, unless you thought your OP was bullet proof you should be looking for answers and insights to why ghosts exist and what they are.
I understand that you base them off of testimony. but it's still speculation.
Lol, IF I was just basing it off OTHERS testimonies maybe, but that's not what I'm doing is it? did you forget about the cross referencing part?
Cross examination
"the formal interrogation of a witness called by the other party in a court of law to challenge or extend testimony already given."
Cross referencing
"a notation or direction at one place (as in a book or filing system) to pertinent information at another place"
"to research, verify, or organize by means of cross-references"
Let me be very clear, there is nothing inconclusive about my knowledge and understanding of spirits. I have both my own witness and the witness of many others.Try asking questions instead of asserting things. Questions result in answers and answers result in understanding. You asked one question at the beginning and then you stopped lol, leading me to believe you were never really interested more than you were just mocking.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Okay, I have to disagree strongly here. Ghost and spirits have not been known for any amount of time. This is why I draw the line at speculation. If ghosts were known, then we'd have actual data to confirm them instead of data to confirm that people think they might have sighted them. I'm not trying to poke fun at you when I say this, but you're being intellectually lazy when you do that. If you want people to take your claims seriously, you need to make sure your evidence is rigorous and leads you through ever step. When you skip a step like that, you create a non sequitur and under mind your claims.
I'm not trying to poke fun at you but I'm using testimonial evidence to simply show there IS evidence I'm not doing anymore than that with the actual testimonies, understood? I'm not using them to try and prove anything to you other than there is an abundance of first hand evidence. Once you admit there is evidence then that is all that I was looking for.
Yes, ghosts and spirits HAVE been known for a long time, perhaps as long as humans have been on earth. They are both fully described and articulated in religion and first hand encounters. To deny this is just silly, perhaps too simple for you to comprehend. It's no longer speculation when you have millions of people, religions (which study the supernatural) and endless literature at your disposal to learn from. Including my own encounters all I have to do is examine the sources that claim the same experience and voila, confirmed data, no speculation needed because the evidence IS there. Now I have my own observation along with the observations of many others. Why does that seem to go over your head? is it because you have a presumption that this is all just absurd?
I'm not being lazy about the data by any means, I'm also making sure you fully understand the nature of a spirit (ghost), the nature of spirituality and Theism. It's not the same way we would observe something like we would with a physical phenomenon, so the immediate need for materialists to be able to "demonstrate" in a lab and for it to be repeatable is not an option. Since ghost sightings and encounters with spirits are of the spiritual aspect of our experience we no longer have that frame of observation (scientific method)….so what are we left with? we are left with religion, which studies that nature... and we are left with testimonial evidence which is a persons first hand witness. And with the amount of data we have regarding spirits it's no longer lazy when you've put the time I have in examining sources. Actually that's quite an insult, I'm one of the few people who could sit here and answer any question you have about souls and spirits, ghosts, God, the after life ect ect…
I'll get to the rest of the post as I have time today, it's unfortunate though most people have too many preconceived ideas and doubts about this type of discussion for there ever to be any kind of middle ground found. And BTW the people that have sighted them are the very ones you want to collect data from.
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@TheRealNihilist
That is the only place where you can fester your ideas and people can take you seriously since there isn't an academic requirement to making claims about "spirituality".
Wow these are big mature responses, I'll stop here because we don't need anymore irate members. I'm not festering my ideas omar, whatever you are but obviously you think of your own opinions highly. That's not why I joined this site, I joined to engage in topics, answer questions I find interesting and help promote the growing of this place. If you think participating in topics in a debate forum is "festering my ideas" perhaps you shouldn't be in a forum where people ask questions and create topics to challenge differing views. If my posts offend you maybe you should grow up and realize when you come to a public forum you will see a wide range of worldviews, beliefs and knowledge. Learn some respect first and you may get answers to your antagonistic posts other wise get your academic butt outa here.
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Fun facts
Keeping in mind that it's assumed "most" people would not come forward with ghost sightings and or spiritual encounters fearing being ridiculed the numbers could be quite higher. As for the ones that do confess here are some shocking statistics.
"There have been an indeterminate number of ghost sightings reported in history worldwide. References to ghosts exist since the time of the ancient Mesopotamian civilization, and up to the present almost all cultures in all countries believe in the existence of ghosts." (Spirits)
"18% of Americans say they’ve seen a ghost"
"Nearly one-in-five U.S. adults (18%) say they’ve seen or been in the presence of a ghost, according to a 2009 Pew Research Center survey. An even greater share – 29% – say they have felt in touch with someone who has already died."
"most American adults in the 21st Century say that they believe in life after death"
"According to the survey, a whopping 60% of people believe that they have seen a ghost."
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@keithprosser
Nah. Or as musty might say
Actually yah.
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@keithprosser
Well follow this thread.
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Near-death experiences (NDEs) (not including ghost encounters and spiritual experiences) are reported by an estimated 200,000 Americans a year, and studies around the world suggest NDEs are a common human experience. They have been recorded in the folklore of many cultures, and reported by people from diverse backgrounds and in widely varying circumstances.
13 million Americans, or 5 percent of the nation’s population, had experienced an NDE as of 1992, according to a 1992 Gallup poll cited by the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation.
774 NDEs per day are experienced in the United States, according to the same poll. That means another 6 million or so Americans may have had NDEs since the 1992 poll, raising the number of Americans who have had an NDE from 13 million to 19 million.
Why should there be such a denial that the soul (consciousness) exists independent of the human body in the face of blatant evidence?
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Lol anytime you challenge his posts or say you they don't make any sense he claims you have an ego problem (when he starts that I just ignore him), ever noticed the ones that claim somebody has an ego issue are the ones who have the biggest egos?
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
A lot of people aren't even familiar with what constitutes as evidence so let me just expose that for ya so you're more careful about what you say there is no evidence for. And again, we're dealing with a nature that transcends the physical sense perception and that is paramount in what you need to know because you have to have a source that correlates with its nature. But yes, there is more evidence for spirituality and spiritual experiences that any other topic. Notice how none of the following definitions contradict spiritual experiences and sightings as evidence...including NDE's.
EVIDENCE-
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
"something that furnishes proof : testimony"
"one who voluntarily confesses and testifies"
" is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak."
" Types of legal evidence include testimony, documentary evidence, and physical evidence."
"In philosophy, the study of evidence is closely tied to epistemology, which considers the nature of knowledge and how it can be acquired."
TESTIMONY
"evidence or proof provided by the existence or appearance of something."
"In law and in religion, testimony is a solemn attestation as to the truth of a matter."
"In the law, testimony is a form of evidence that is obtained from a witness who makes a solemn statement or declaration of fact."
" Evidence in support of a fact or assertion; proof."
" A formal declaration of truth or fact "
"a testimony is known as statements that are based on personal experience or personal knowledge."
WITNESS
"evidence; proof."
"have knowledge of (an event or change) from personal observation or experience."
"attestation of a fact or event : testimony"
" one that gives evidence"
"one who has personal knowledge of something"
"something serving as evidence or proof"
" someone who has, who claims to have, or is thought, by someone with authority to compel testimony, to have knowledge relevant to an event or other matter of interest."
" provides testimonial evidence, either oral or written"
PROOF
"evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement."
"the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact"
"In most disciplines, evidence is required to prove something. Evidence is drawn from experience of the world around us, with science obtaining its evidence from nature, law obtaining its evidence from witnesses and forensic investigation, and so on.".
That "and so on" includes.... spirituality obtaining it's evidence from religious sources and testimonial evidence. Because you have to go to the source that correlates with that nature.
TESTIMINIAL EVIDENCE
" National Forensic Science Technology Center states that evidence is categorized as either testimonial or physical."
"Testimonial evidence might be used to prove or disprove several different things."
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
So the reason I call it speculation, is because we have no data for it. So that means we're just hypothesizing how a ghost could possibly behave or what rules of physics do or don't apply and what metaphysical rules do that have that we may not know about. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with speculation, as long as we understand that you don't know it well enough to say it's true.
There is plenty of data for it just not within the scientific way of examining our physical world. You have to move into the study that correlates with the nature of spirituality. This ties in with experiential knowledge and testimonial evidence. All the things I listed prior.
The problem here is that you keep saying X thing about ghost as if it's an objective fact. I would rather we say what a ghost "might" be like rather than plainly stating it to be the case.
A ghost is just a spirit, ghosts and spirits have been known and established for a long, long time. So there is no reason to speculate, coupled with my own encounters I use cross examination to confirm what I've observed. No "might" necessary there are plenty of facts and evidence. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to articulate anything.
Now if you're saying it that way because you know for sure that ghosts exist, then we have to stop and answer a critical question before I accept any of that..... How do you know all these things you say about ghost are actually true?
Because number one I've actually seen them so I know what they look like and how they move, number two there's more evidence than I could ever possibly sift through to cross reference, as well religious sources have the descriptions and anatomy of how it operates. Either way we have my own experience and then supported by the evidence that is an abundance.
I don't necessarily asking if you know how ghost exist, but rather how you know all these weird and specific rules about them.
Because I take what I know about the soul, about the nature of consciousness and the evidence we have along with my own sightings and put all the logic and evidence together. Bam, you have a fact.
Couldn't they exist, but all of your rules are inaccurate?
What rules? I was just articulating the nature of our soul and the nature of the subtle bodies and how it all works and how ghosts are even viable being observed. These are illustrations and explanations not rules.
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@secularmerlin
It may be that a literally 'omniscient' entity precludes free will, but what if a god only knows almost everything?
You're on the right track, God can't know everything only It's own actions and "mind". God knows everything in the moment, God also can have predictive ability but the Creator imparted to the soul a creative imagination and it's own mind. There's too many dynamics involved with the creative abilities man has to ever be "omniscient". God creates the environment and settings for man but the soul has it's own will, and it's imagination can never be pre-ordained. So yeah, people have to get over the misconception that God knows everything BEFORE they play out. There's all sorts of things God has control over, but not the will.
Granting a god infinte qualities makes it easy to knock up trivial proofs and disproofs about that god but I don't think an entity has to be literally infinite in power to be a god.
Bingo, God just has to be maximal, as all things come out of God anyways there's nothing that has more ability or power than God. God is infinite though and even omnipresent but the nature of consciousness and the imagination are too complex to ever foretell. Once creation has been established and once the soul is placed within its environment God can have predictive power as God is aware of all things but this predestination and preordained stuff is nonsense. God can also "predestine" our world and our environment, predestine some of our circumstances but does not have full knowledge of souls who will be created. When a soul is sent into the created worlds it develops its own personality and desires through it's own experiences and perceptions, it's choices will be based on those things and as I said, there's just too many dynamics to have a predictive element of it.
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@secularmerlin
Secular, you wouldn't be harassing people would you? usually you're the mature one...
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@keithprosser
I would add that at the aftermath of the BB now the Creator has much more tools to play with. Pretty slick Creator we got.
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@keithprosser
A pre-existing consciousness is all very well, but it has to be a consciousness with the power to create a material universe, estmated to be 1.5 × 10^53 kg.
That's because you never paid attention (or didn't care to) when I've said many times that energy is present with awareness, conscious activity. This is why energy even exists, both energy and consciousness are not created or destroyed they are eternal. Now follow.. this is real simple, the Creator uses this energy to manifest creation on all conscious levels. Do you study quantum physics? and how energy is isolated to create forms? this is why I always ask people to look at how energy operates in our own universe, why is it even there and why does it produce intelligence? why do intelligent processes even occur? it's because it's first conscious intelligence that uses energy through the processes we observe through science and spirituality to create things, stars, planets, galaxies ect ect.
So yes, the Creator absolutely has the ability to create a material universe, you're living in it.
My consciousness can't produce a microgram! So we aren't really talking about a consciousness - we're talking about God, aren't we?
Actually whatever you put your energy and attention on you can produce. It's only because of the physical body that it takes so long to do it, when you're hungry and you've already thought about where you want to go to eat your consciousness is already there, you're physical body just has to catch up and eventually it gets there. If you want to build a house you first desire it, then se it, then plan it then execute it and this all happened because you first thought it. With the Creator, the nature of consciousness (without form) and energy that limitation of a physical body is no longer an obstacle. Consciousness is instantaneous and God does things on grand atomic scales but it's a process to get from awareness to energy to material structure. The fun part is that the worlds beyond this one are so dynamic because they have less limitations, the less physical mass consciousness is restricted by the more freedom and creative power/ability.
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@janesix
Maybe try a youtube search, I found a few things. It might be easier to watch a video on it. And of course youtube is always free.
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@Fallaneze
Yes, why yes of course.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
This would contradict the nature of observation. Even when we imagine crazy possibilities, we have to make sure they're coherent. By coherent, I mean that any hypothetical idea that you add should not violate any previous observations that have been confirmed consistently.
So far it seems you misunderstood what I meant by a spirit would have to want to be in your presence to be observed, when you decided to alter my statement. Had you followed what I actually meant there would be nothing incoherent. If you pay attention to what I write it will all be coherent. If there is something you're not sure of just ask and I'll clarify.
So I'd ultimately have to ask how selective visibility could be coherent.
Well now that you fully understand that I didn't mean "a ghost chooses who can see it" rather when it's present I'll explain how it is possible that an individual can see one and why some people don't. Warning, it's probably not going to be short lol but at least you have people contributing to your topic.
As I wrote in my first post about the subtle nature of the spirit body and the limits of the physical eye your actual conscious being (soul) is not restricted to only the physical sense perception believe it or not. A persons attention can be primarily focused on the physical body but they are not confined to just that experience alone this is really the only thing "selective" as you say. As well if a person is not putting their energy and awareness on that reality they may never have those experiences (see one). Occasionally an average person who sees a ghost might not even be aware that they are seeing it through the subtle body but everyone has that ability because we are that. We can alternate between states of conscious experience because your soul exists independent of material form, even independent of the spiritual/subtle body because the actual conscious soul has no form it's just awareness.
So a person can be more in tune with these other ranges of conscious frequency depending on their practices or spiritual discernment and more sensitive to the presence of that energy, the energy of a spirit being. If your attention is on a spirit (assuming you knew it was there) you can then pick up on their energy, and if a person is more spiritually influenced by their subtle form then they can be seen as well...not with the physical eye but the subtle bodies perception and this is possible because we are first conscious souls, who have both subtle (spirit) form as well as a dense physical body. So a person can transcend the physical sense perception either purposefully or unknowingly. IMO we would need a device to observe them from a physical medium though, as if we were to collectively examine one from a scientific method.
This is why there are so many spiritual transcendent experiences, religious observations, soul travel, NDE's and OBE's because this is the full scope of who and what we are.
Every soul will have a conscious experience leaving the material body and they will then be present in spirit form, a subtle body. This is the form you "take on" (though you don't really take it on, you are already that) when you leave this world. If you wish to be in this world again you must take on another physical body so a ghost would just be observing not really engaged with the physical world.
You could observe this world as a spirit or "ghost", but you wouldn't be able to interact with the physical senses of this world other than your energy, nobody would ever know you were there though. You could get peoples attention because you still have energy, but a ghost has left the physical form.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
so one part of your statement stuck out as being a step too far. The rest was speculation, but that's cool because that's why I opened this topic, lol.
What's even more funny is that whenever spiritual based questions are raised and answered the answer is always assumed it's speculation. When will you folks ever consider there is an objective transcendent reality involved? This means there can be experiential knowledge, observations, applications, practices, methods and yes even evidence, oh damn did I say evidence?
The only thing, and I mean only thing you have to understand and apply when trying to understand spirituality is the nature of all of it.
I have a problem with the idea that a ghost "chooses" who can see it.
That's because you twisted my words ever so slightly and I don't like that because it wastes my time (or perhaps you just misunderstood), you switched my sentence from " a ghost would have to want/agree for you to observe it" to "a ghost chooses who can see it" and not sure why you did.
What I was sayin or getting at is that if we wanted to detect a ghost or a spirit we would have to be able to locate one, and since not everyone has the perception to "see" them we would also have to have some sort of device to measure it's energy if we're coming from a scientific approach. Maybe you could clarify what you mean by "detect".
Ghosts (spirits) are not just stuck in one place or area they go wherever they want when they want and they are not bound to this planet. So you have a being that goes where it wants and that same being is practically invisible to the human eye. KNOWING you were going to ask how people see them I already told you I would elaborate on that. So I have no idea how you didn't understand it's pretty simple. A ghost may want to be in the presence of someone and they may not is what I'm getting at, so they don't control who "sees" them, but they do control who they want to be around and when to be observed. So I didn't really mean the ghost chooses who can see it, rather it chooses when to be present for anyone to be able to observe it by device or by perception. Does that make more sense?
Two different things I'm suggesting here, detecting a ghost through instrumentation/device by energy and being able to actually see one spiritually or through the subtle bodies perception. To visually see one (if it was present) it's dependent on the individual not the spirit or ghost but we should be able to pick up on a ghosts energy if we had a device IF it was present.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I'll start with an open ended question.If ghosts existed, then would we be able to detect them?
Not necessarily (yes and no), number one you would have to be in the right place at the right time. Number two a ghost would have to want/agree for you to observe it, you can't just go out and find a ghost lol! Obviously the movie Ghost Busters is an exaggeration as we normally don't get slimed by ghosts and we have nothing that can suck one into a device :D
Having said that ghosts have what are known as a subtle body (spirit body). I've seen them, they are "spirits" not dead people and they have a transparent sort of look to them.
The subtle body or spirit bodies are for the most part unseen by the human eye. Much like we are limited to the full spectrum of color and are only able to see certain rays so it's the same with the energetic makeup of the spirit form. It exists far less dense than the physical body and far lighter. The atoms that make up the spirit body also exist at a much finer, higher frequency/vibration and so they mostly escape the physical sight. So obviously I'll have to articulate how I was able to see some but I'm going to keep this as short as possible. Questions regarding this nature of existence are hard to explain with few sentences without seeming absurd so hang in there.
To answer the inevitable question though..... yes, technically we should be able to detect them with anything that could pick up an energy aura or something along those lines but the problem with that goes back to my first paragraph. How do you plan on finding a ghost, then how are planning to get one to agree to be observed? this may sound funny but you're the one that asked.
Not everyone can communicate or see spirits so this is another dynamic involved but I'll let you reply to what you would like. But "hint", WE also have a subtle body that correlates with the observations of the reality that transcends the physical sense perception.
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@TheRealNihilist
they don't know what creates your conscious awareness and that's where spirituality picks up the ball.
In other words that is the only place where such an idea can fester?
Lol or the only medium that can reach that experience or answer the hard questions? which is more likely, that ideas are "festering" or being articulated because of its known nature? I'm sure you can't answer that intelligently without making yourself look like a biased troll.
Where we have no idea what actually occurs so that you can carry on with your conspiracy theories?
No conspiracies, actually spirituality has been articulated for ages, and now we have the speculation of materialism...hmmmm, which one is the conspiracy??
Science observes a different nature than spirituality.
So why isn't their professionals dedicated to spirituality and learning what occurs in the conscious instead of people like you who look at anecdotes? Do you know a professional in the field?
Are you serious?? People like me "who look at anecdotes" are the same who are looking at spirituality from a professional viewpoint, what are you talking about? are you talking out your arse??? yes there are many professionals of the field. If you want my recommendation I have several sources.
But just like electricity and energy consciousness exists independent of forms.
So you are making the claim spirituality has no attachment to the physical world?
Wrong, its experiences transcend the physical world while also including the physical sense perception. However, the physical world and the physical sense perception is not the only experience. Spirituality is the observation that reaches beyond those material perceptions.
And I find your conclusions cherry picking, who's right lol?
How am I cherry-picking? I am fairly looking at what you said instead of representing the bad or the good instead I am making statements about what you said.
I am making statements about what you said as well, how is my conclusions cherry picking if yours is not??
Wrong and how immature of you to suggest that. Oh well that's what I expect from a debate forum anyways.
Says the person who is talking about something in which there has been very little known about it.
How ignorant of you to suggest, since spirituality and the nature of our existence has been known for ages.
You have to acknowledge the nature of spirituality, if you do anything else at least do that. You can label experiences anecdotes but they are first hand encounters. They can then be used for cross referencing.
Why are these anecdotes not applying to strict rules of validity valid?
Why are these testimonials not applied to strict rules of validity?? considering they are included as evidence??
If there are strict rules of validity what are they? If they don't conform to what you believe is it wrong?
I supplied the dynamics involved and the nature. I'm not saying that testimonial evidence is what should convince you, rather the abundance of evidence should suggest to you that there is an objective reality that transcends the physical sense perception. If it's not convincing for you, fine. If I'm to reject it though, I'd have to erase my own experience and evidence that suggests it so. I wouldn't do that because I'm intellectually honest.
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@TheRealNihilist
So many anecdotes?
Soo many testimonials.
I find this a simply you pick data that suit your narrative and leave out that doesn't.
Thanks for the opinion, but without an illustration I'm afraid it's nothing more than an assumption. We don't have any use for assumption though, perhaps try again?
If spirituality was real science would see the observable evidence in our brains to justify a conclusion.
No sir, because science is only capable of examining the cause of things from a material perspective, in other words the material side of existence. It has no way of examining or articulating things outside it's domain. As I explained, when dealing with spirituality we are moving away from the physical sense perception.
The only thing science is capable of observing is activity in the brain, they don't know what creates your conscious awareness and that's where spirituality picks up the ball.
Science is based on observable evidence.
Sure but so is spirituality in its own field of expertise. Look up the definition of science and see if it contradicts anything I've said here. Science observes a different nature than spirituality.
Spirituality I am sure occurs in the brain therefore science should be able to see brain patterns that cause such a reaction. I'll take it you are not able to find observable brain data to prove the existence of "spirituality"?
Brain activity occurs because you are occupying the physical body. But just like electricity and energy consciousness exists independent of forms.
Yes, cross examination.
I find this a simple cherry-picking.
And I find your conclusions cherry picking, who's right lol?
You find data that suites you and disregard anything else.
Wrong and how immature of you to suggest that. Oh well that's what I expect from a debate forum anyways.
If you go off on anecdotes as evidence then take this anecdote. I have never had spiritual a encounter. Am I wrong? Are you wrong? What happens with this new anecdote?
You have to acknowledge the nature of spirituality, if you do anything else at least do that. You can label experiences anecdotes but they are first hand encounters. They can then be used for cross referencing.
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@TheRealNihilist
Tell me something that makes sense.
Wow, that's like asking me to tell you something that makes sense in mathematics or anatomy/chemistry....something that makes sense in spirituality is the nature of consciousness, the soul and our universe. All these things tie into a Creator. Long story short...
For example with spirituality, evidence is in tune with testimonials as opposed to physical based evidence.
So basically you are saying there is proof that this one person experienced something to do with spirituality.
No, there are MANY "proofs" not just one. That changes things obviously, even though there is a fallacy of popularity it is suggestive evidence in this conversation so it's applicable.
Do you have a science paper to support an anecdote like this?
Haha, this makes me wonder if you've paid attention to anything I wrote and the nature thereof. Science is incompatible with the nature of spirituality, as it studies something entirely different.
one way I confirm evidence is through cross examination but I'm not sure that answers your question.
Cross-examination of spirituality?
Yes, cross examination.
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@TheRealNihilist
This does not help me.
What are you trying to get help with? certainly regarding spirituality there's nothing I CAN'T help you with. It's just a matter of articulating your questions.
What type of logic?
Lol, "reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles", "a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning".
When dealing with spirituality none of that changes. Logic stays the same in evaluating.
What do you mean by rationale?
Things that makes sense.
the evidence comes through what correlates with that specific nature.
Are you saying you find evidence to what you already believe in?
No, not at all. I find evidence in what already exists. That which correlates with the same nature. For example with spirituality, evidence is in tune with testimonials as opposed to physical based evidence.
Lets say I give you X evidence to something. I don't want a depends instead would like to know the process of how you say this evidence is true or false.
Not sure what you are asking for here, perhaps an example would work....one way I confirm evidence is through cross examination but I'm not sure that answers your question.
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@TheRealNihilist
What way are you interpreting the propositions and evidence?
I've explained that, if you go back to my original response and follow it from there everything should be clear, very clear. I'm claiming that processes are the result of intelligence, AKA the Creator as well as the evidence available (regarding consciousness) is suggestive/supportive of spirituality (NDE's/OBE's).
Please be brief and specific.
The interpretation comes through logic and rationale, the evidence comes through what correlates with that specific nature. This goes into the experiential world of religion and the vast arena of spirituality.
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@Titanium
I will respond later but honestly several years ago I approached the evolution topic completely undecided as an adult. The evidence was so compelling that I was immediately sold.
Maybe it's because evolution is true, but what were you sold on? that evolution took place or a materialistic/atheistic worldview? two different things there buddy.
It's hard to think that faith is not the key element in resistance to what is perhaps one of the most well established theories in science.
If only you knew how incorrect that statement is. Perhaps you could say fundamentalism in some religious squares refuse to accept established theories but that doesn't apply to faith at all, unless of course you believe that faith is just a collection of beliefs. Hopefully, after all I said about faith you won't accept that idea anymore. To make matters more clear, a person can have faith in evolution.
Simply no good reason to believe there was outside intervention at any point.
That's an interpretation, not a fact. The distinction I've been trying to convey for you.
I take great pains to be objective and I likely understand faith based positions more than many I see on this site.
I would rather you understand what faith actually means and what it is for lol.
I am saying that I think your faith impacts your view of evolution and likely everything but that's just at a glance. Would you say this is true?
Well do you remember what I wrote about interpretations? remember that what science puts forward is a neutral study, meaning that what we interpret from that study is up for personal interpretation. Would you agree that is true? again my faith has no part in this, first I interpret the propositions and evidence available.....then I have faith in it when it makes sense to me, so my faith is not impacting anything, rather my faith comes after I have evaluated everything and I fully trust it. See how that works? faith doesn't influence what I accept or believe, but when I accept it and trust it, then I can place faith in it. You have to get that order of operation right first.
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@Titanium
Continued...
It took a few years to get honest with myself and involved separating myself from the constant affirmation of a church. I was a fundamentalist evangelical christian for many years and changing brought more suffering than I thought possible so I can understand why people are hesitant to undertake the task.
Do you understand the difference between what your parents urged you to believe and the reality of what actually exists in spirituality? and that what your parents urged you to believe is not all there is to Theism?? if you do understand that, then maybe you will start to see why you still can hold Theistic beliefs while understanding evolution. Fundamentalism is precisely that, it's limited by only one approach and one set of ideas and beliefs. BUT, it's not necessary to be a fundamentalist to be spiritual or accept Theism.
The good news is that you don't always have to be destined to be agnostic or an atheist, you can still experience the objective reality of spirituality.....while embracing evolution. However you can't just blow it off and ignore it, at some point you must get involved and participate.
A lot of people get discouraged because of their childhood experience of religion but just because they never connected with it doesn't mean it's all bogus. This goes back to what I'm saying about spirituality and faith not being just about beliefs, you want to get to a place where you have knowledge from experience. Without my own observations and experiences I would have nothing to pursue, nothing to articulate, nothing to connect with and this is where many people left off with their interest in Theism.
Ok, what reasons and evidence establish your faith?
I could never explain that in a single sentence. My beliefs are formed through a lifetime of observations and examinations. I could give you examples, but there is no single answer and a single answer might not be that convincing anyways. There's so many angles that apply to my beliefs it's not even funny there's a lot we could discuss about that. The best way I could put it is that my beliefs are a culmination of experience and study.
But again, what establishes my "faith" is what I'm confident in, so first comes sorting and reasoning through beliefs and then comes faith to anchor that belief. Remember that order because it has become a major misconception, faith isn't applicable until you have solid trust in something... so just believing in things is not faith at all, having confidence is what faith means and confidence comes through all the things I've been telling you here....experiential knowledge and commonsense.
Sorry about the delay in my response, if you plan on commenting back maybe we should try and condense this since it's all kind of the same topic and theme.
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@Titanium
Continued...
Prayer studies would be a good start to confirm a god and they have all failed.
Not at all, because prayer studies would be inconsistent as they show. That's due to prayer being a personal, individual element, and this is where faith plays its role. Faith (trust and confidence) is what powers prayer to make it effectual, so it's a personal manifestation and either a person has it or they don't, either a person has much or little. So yes, I'm claiming effectiveness does not come through God but the individual and this can be easily seen by Jesus of the Gospels and His teachings about faith and what it's purpose is. Ye of little faith!! a little faith can move mountains (obstacles) but not if the person has none.
Prayer also depends on lifestyle, effective prayer has to correlate with how a person lives their life. In other words someone can't slap their kid around one week then expect prayer to work the next, not how this works at all and so studies of prayer are obviously going to be inconsistent.
You are claiming that god intervened in reality, particularly evolution and that can be observed by science.
I'm not sure if the word intervene is appropriate because God didn't come between anything to alter a course of events, rather the process and course of events began because the Creator caused them.
Is that the end or do you believe god intervenes in your life?
I believe a person can have different experiences on varying states of consciousness. If a person is in line with principles they have the ability to channel those higher conscious frequencies and energy into this world. God doesn't "intervene", rather has access through every channel of awareness and so it's not an intervention, the Creator is everywhere at all times. But if an individual wants to manifest the Divine or a higher level of energy on earth they have to channel that.... You ARE the channel of the Divine and like any conduit it depends upon what you are capable of channeling.
If so that is intervention into the natural world which could be observed by science.
Not at all, because we are not dealing with physical objects or matter so there is no medium for science to examine the source of activity even if they observed it, science is limited to the natural world and while it can observe effects of spirituality it has no way to confirm it. All we can see from the physical perception is an inconsistent effect of things, if they happen. However, as conscious beings we don't have to be controlled or restricted to one observation. We have the potential to experience the full scope of consciousness and all that it implies, but we are the ones who control our own input and output.
Where is your evidence for that?
There's evidence of spiritual and transcendent experiences everywhere and in abundance. So much so, it's hard to even know where to start. But fortunately it's there.
I see that you're claiming you apply the same standard of evidence required when you make all other belief decisions to your faith.
Not my faith, stop saying that. I know you are using the term that way but for me it's not applicable, faith and beliefs are not the same thing. Faith doesn't even come into the equation until trust and confidence have been established. Faith follows beliefs but they are two distinct elements with different roles. Beliefs are acquired through commonsense, logic, rationale, evidence and observations.....faith comes into play when a person becomes confident in what they believe, see the difference there?
I do not believe that is possible and my faith ended quickly when I was honestly able to do that.
That's why I decided to respond to your post, because you are wrong on this one, it IS possible to use the same standards that you do everything else as long as you fully understand the nature of spirituality and what correlates with that nature. There's much more dynamics involved in Theism. After that everything is the very same......there is no altering of standards before you accept something. It still has to make sense, be logical, follow rationally and have evidence!
You may have accepted the study of evolution and that may have contradicted your personal beliefs but that's why I am here to say Theism and evolution are compatible, and that's because there is a process of creation.
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@Titanium
One doesn't have to accept 6 day creation to be a Theist
I realize this but I skipped this step.
Why? what do you mean by that? I know you were taught that but the point I'm making is that it's not necessary even in religious squares. So....you're allowed to discard anything that you disagree with and so the reason for rejecting Theism based on the study of evolution is also not necessary. There's many Theists who understand creation is a process and that process includes the evolution of matter and forms. You don't have to go from a 6 day Creationist to a materialist atheist lol, where's the middle ground?
I've watched people slowly lean away from the most absurd claims to the horrendous commands god issues but it wasn't like that for me.
Not sure I understand what this has to do with what I wrote. Perhaps you could give me an example of what you mean here.
Not all Theists assert or assume there was no process (evolution) involved.
Yes, I was of the fundamentalist variety
But, there's still many aspects left in spirituality for you to experience and explore.
I have been exposed to a variety of this type of moderate apologetics since I am still very interested in faith and how it originates and affects our society.
You can call it apologetics but I just call it commonsense. You seem to draw an imaginary line between faith and the study of evolution and while you are certainly allowed to do that, again it's not necessary. There isn't just faith and then evolution, the two can be compatible because they focus on entirely different aspects of our observation. Again, faith isn't just beliefs, it's a spiritual element consisting of trust and confidence and even a Theist might not have any faith. Faith is an action, it allows the user to overcome obstacles in their life so this idea of believing in things for no reason and with zero evidence is a misconception and plays no role in spirituality.
I tentatively accept ideas about the self, consciousness etc proposed by eastern religions and they do line up with the current understanding of the brain. I practice mindfulness on a regular basis
Excellent, so what's the problem?? if you accept it, then you know the nature of consciousness, which is the same as the soul, which opposes materialism......which manifests in form by the Creator. Consciousness is neither created or destroyed, energy exists because conscious activity exists. One before the other. The average materialist has everything arse backwards, inanimate matter can never produce conscious beings, the process of evolving forms is aided by intelligence....that's why it produces intelligence.
If there you can be both spiritual and a methodological naturalist I am that.
Well unfortunately that is impossible, because spirituality is the practice and observation of the reality that transcends the physical sense perception. And because it's an objective reality it has to be acknowledged for it to have any influence on you. Otherwise it's just a meaningless term. You can be methodological and spiritual, but not a materialist or an atheist and spiritual because the two terms are conflicting. They are conflicting because spirituality is intertwined with the realization of the Creator, there is a purpose/cultivation and journey of the soul. You have to eventually lay down these types of limiting mindsets and beliefs if you wish to fully embrace spirituality because what you accept is what your potential will be. The nature of consciousness is truly unlimited and materialism is at the lowest level of knowledge and understanding, it's like looking at the effects of things and never understanding the cause of them therefore your experience will always be on that same level.
Yes, things that no one can observe I don't believe in. If you observe god in your personal life so did I. If you pray and read your bible and experience god in every aspect of your life I did too. I now call that confirmation bias and the bliss of mindfulness in your life.
Maybe your own beliefs at the time were confirmation bias (because maybe they were immature, having no experiential grounding), however if you are observing and examining spirituality from an objective, rational viewpoint then that is not necessary. Again, I find it funny that Theistic beliefs always get labeled "conformation bias" when in reality it applies the same way with materialism and naturalism. Now the only difference is that you filter everything through a materialist worldview and answer to a materialistic based study......which is LIMITED. So the only thing you really did was limit yourself and your experiences. You could have examined religion and spirituality objectively at any point and any time, which is what my main point has been. You didn't have to hold conflicting or absurd beliefs as a Theist, you didn't need to use confirmation bias either, all that was on you not Theism.
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@Titanium
And ignore the troll following me around with accusations, insults and no arguments, he's been warned repeatedly in two separate forums but he apparently has learning problems. Feel free to ask me whatever you want, argue anything I point out.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I don't mind talking to you but in the future, bulleting your stuff would make it easier. I can only read so much in a short time span and I want to be able to address you as thoroughly as possible. I await your responses :)
Sorry about the winded posts, it's not a topic I can articulate in a few paragraphs but yeah I'll try and make it easier. I'll get to your post a bit later.
I understand your frustration with supernatural claims. But ridiculing him isn't going to produce much. I know from personal experience, lol. You got to give people the best answers possible and let them find the truth for themselves.
If you've been paying attention, it's all he has is ridicule so there's nothing ever to debate. I just mainly ignore it most of the time.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
That's where we would heavily diverge. I don't believe that my individual mind has always existed.
Well this is true, your individual mind has not always existed (there was a point in time it was individualized) but the nature of your conscious soul has, two different things. Your individual mind is what creates your ego or personality/perceptions in creation but even that individualizes from the universal mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_mind
I believe one thing that Outplayz and I disagree on is that the mind in not animate it is inanimate and is not the first in order, it's not a being it's a compartment that the soul uses. The mind actually isn't who you are, you are first conscious awareness. The same works with the infinite, the eternal Creator is not really a mind rather this infinite Reality is pure awareness, then you have the manifestation of a "mind". Now, the projection of the universal mind from this conscious Reality are not one and the same, again, consciousness projects the mind so consciousness is always first.
Basically you have an infinite conscious Source (people label that God) and you have the projection of the universal mind. Now you have the soul, which is an individualization of that conscious Reality and it too is conscious, then you have the individualization of the mind that confines your experience to a little mind and it comes out of the universal Mind. That soul is then sheathed in several coverings and sent out as a seed to experience and develop.
So while your individualized mind has not always existed the nature of your conscious soul has, you come right out of that Reality into duality so in essence the nature of the infinite is one and the same as the individualized soul. Consciousness like energy, cannot be something other than energy or consciousness the only thing that distinguishes things in creation is forms but the current of awareness is the same in all forms. It's the mind that the soul uses along with their embodiments is what creates the illusion of separation. But when that is stripped away the illusion is no longer observable but you will still be conscious.
I believe that I'm just a collection of particles that have always existed and had consciousness and that when they break apart they'll form new minds that are nothing like mine except that they used a few of my particles. So in that sense, I will live on I suppose. There could be a case for maybe a collective conscious that has "agents" at their core. So the agent is the individual mind and the collectives are kind of like conductors or railroad tracks, however you want to think of it. Extensions of the agents. I'm not totally against that idea but it's an extra assumption so I'd need a good reason to assume it. Give me one and I will, lol. certainly agency would be nice if it was true.
But you ARE an agency and you can observe this, in all honesty you should recognize that you are. Pull back from the mind and just observe your awareness and being, it's always aware of you as the agency because that is your true observation point. Your agency is looking through the mind and body like as if they were masks (simplified analogy).
You are the observer of the mind and body, consciousness has to be an agency that is what it means to be conscious. Consciousness is not just particles floating around that collect and awareness is not just a brain with neural firing, what you see in creation and with energy, forms, particles ect ect are the results of conscious activity not the other way around. Remember the order....awareness, mind and then the manifestation and manipulation of energy and elements(matter/form). That's not to say conscious activity doesn't create substance, as I explain the very activity of consciousness generates energy and everything follows from that first Reality.
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@Titanium
I was actually indoctrinated as a child to believe that God created the earth 6k years ago like IlDiavolo likely was.
llDiavolo is not a Christian I don't know why everyone thinks he is lol. He's just making a point how it's an assumption to accept processes are just purely natural, meaning they happen by themselves. Hopefully you read my posts because I addressed all of that. Also, one doesn't have to accept 6 day creation to be a Theist, that's just a matter of individual interpretation.
When I lost my faith I wasn't really sure how like was created since I was only constantly told it was God and did not believe that explanation was accurate.
If you read my posts, evolution of embodiments fits just fine with Theism and a Creator. Make yourself look at what they produce as they are right now....look at how the environment was prepared, then came stars as heat and light sources as well as seeding the planet. Then you have the collection of galaxies and the formation of planets, isn't it ironic that planets are HOMES?? after that has been established now come the embodiments and all of this takes a long, long time to create. The Creator doesn't just poof things into existence there is a process of creation.
Not all Theists assert or assume there was no process (evolution) involved. The problem, is asserting they take place without an intelligent conscious Being.
After a couple years I decided to make an effort to understand how life was created and read a single book on evolution. The information is so varied and exact that it takes something like indoctrination/denial to disagree.
Why did you give up on spirituality just because you read a book on evolution? In order for there to be creation there must be a process of getting it there. When you study a secular source they are just looking at the physical side of things. They can't observe that it's the Creator who manipulates energy, particles and elements which we observe through things evolving and the isolation of energy to create form.
Probably because many years ago I may have tried to take the same position as he does. What cured me is a simple question. Why don't I apply the same standards of evidence to my faith that I do to everything else? That was the beginning of the end of it.
Why didn't you apply the same standards to your faith? as long as you fully comprehend the nature of Theism and spirituality everything else IS the same, but with spirituality we are dealing with existence that transcends the physical sense perception. What was your faith? if it was your beliefs that you no longer agree with you're not obligated or required to accept them, however you didn't have to give up on the whole idea and throw in the towel. You simply put your faith in what makes sense and what you can relate to. Not everything we are taught in religion is correct, but, there certainly is an objective reality that transcends this one. So spirituality, which is the process of learning who and what you truly are is well worth the pursuit. You just have to get with sources that know what they are talking about.
Just as a side note, spiritual faith is not just about believing in things for no reason and with no evidence, that plays no role in spirituality. Faith is trust and confidence, and trust and confidence are developed. In order to have confidence and trust in something there must be reason, evidence and experience to do so. So don't trick yourself, you were never required to believe in things you had no confidence and trust in. But change your beliefs, spirituality is an enormous arena, so don't just give up. See and understand what is worth pursuing and ask questions here.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I personally think being corporeal can fit into infinite existence.
Explain how that works. How does being corporeal fit into an infinite existence? the two are a contradiction. Being corporeal means being dependent on a body. Consciousness though, is not dependent on a body, and not being so is why it fits into an infinite existence scenario. Incorporeal consciousness manifests into forms that are finite, but the soul exists independent of form, again fitting into an infinite existence.
Not if you believe in singular minds having afterlives. But if you believe in a collective consciousness like I do, then a corporeal and infinite cyclic universe works.
Singular minds having afterlives does fit into an infinite existence scenario when you first understand that consciousness is incorporeal and can manifest as finite through isolated forms which includes the individual minds endlessly. Souls are indeed incorporeal and so is the nature of consciousness, if they were not they would be contingent on the material world, making an infinite existence of no meaning or value and having no real distinction from a materialistic worldview.
Singular minds come out of the universal mind and individual souls originate from the universal, infinite consciousness....It works because both the created realms as well as the individualized soul are layered, meaning that our experiences can be temporal and virtually endless while the soul and who we become remains intact. There's a hierarchy and a progression to the soul and what it experiences, when it leaves one world it is present in the next along with its mind. When the soul leaves creation completely along with the individualized mind it exists as it's original form which would be this infinite Source.
These singular minds and afterlives are created by an eternal creative awareness so that there is a long, long journey for the soul, for you. An infinite existence creates finite experiences, which includes further experiences that transcend this one experience. Creation IS cyclical, which means experiences are endless but the soul and the origin of the soul is a fixed Reality, they remain the same. There is no dissipation of who you really are, you will always be that.
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@disgusted
Go back to bed or learn how to read. Or better yet, stop mentioning my name.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Consciousness doesn't need surroundings or form to be aware, only to experience something. It doesn't need a mind to be aware, only to categorize and define experience through memory and perception. Energy exists because first conscious activity exists, energy in return is manipulated and isolated to create form so that we can experience life and surroundings contrasted from an omnipresent, singular Reality. That omnipresent reality has to be stepped down and isolated to confine it to an individual experience. When your physical body decomposes those particles that make up that body return to the environment they came from but not your conscious and mental energies, they remain who you are because you were first a conscious being, which was enabled a mind which then inhabited a form. So what you have learned and experienced are carried over to the "afterlife" and even reincarnated experiences. A person may not be conscious of specific previous experiences but it's all in their subconscious. The reason for a culmination of experiences if for one, there is progression of the soul and two, it's the very desire and nature of consciousness to experience life. So the soul progresses through a series of experiences.
You do have an energetic "blueprint" of your soul and your culminated experiences (Akashic records) in the causal plane and the energetic field so what you are right now is not dependent on the current form you inhabit. Your physical body is dependent on its environment but your conscious and mental existence have a transcendental origin. Whatever body you embody will always carry over that blueprint even though your perceptions are confined to that body.
The energetic world is not restricted to a physical body and of course we know that energy exists independent of form and exists as varying states of frequencies so if your consciousness and mind are a collective operation of energy then that will still exist when you leave the physical body, the only thing you won't have is the conduit/components that you experience through in the human form. You will no longer have a connection that enables your experience of those senses here but you will always be the observer no matter the form you observe through. Your soul is a complete, whole conscious being and is not dependent on anything. Your mind is what you use to categorize and label your experiences but it to survives the death of the bodies.
incorporeal would be one example of something that's metaphysical yes. metaphysical simply means "at or beyond the limit of physics" So it could be something that we know 100% but in this case I was talking about that which goes beyond our knowledge. My only real problem with being incorporeal would be if it was define as being non interactive, that is to say it can't affect reality.
Non interactive is misleading, because you have an omnipresent conscious Reality that has access to every individual channel of conscious awareness and can experience and observe through all those channels, it IS those channels and created those channels, it's the same current of consciousness through every single form. That Reality creates our realities and then observes and experiences through those individualized forms. Like energy exists in form and independent of form and like electricity which can be harnessed and confined to components and machinery and at the same time exist outside those components. When you understand fully the nature of energy and the nature of consciousness then you know they can exist within forms as well there is no place where they don't exist, the current of consciousness and energy is the same, only the forms change. If the nature of consciousness is always the same and of the same origin it's the same Reality that creates form and observes through form. In essence, it creates the environments and then "interacts" with that environment through forms and embodiments.
What distinguishes form from the formless is simply isolated states of energetic frequencies but both are experienced by a singular Source of consciousness. The equivalent of what I'm describing can be seen in a Hindu description...
Brahman
"connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe. In major schools of Hindu philosophy, it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists. It is the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes. Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe."
"Brahman is identical to the Atman, is everywhere and inside each living being, and there is connected spiritual oneness in all existence."
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I think the only difference between us, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you believe that "your" specific mind will survive in an afterlife and I believe that consciousness is a collective of certain particles that produce agency. so my mind is a clump of consciousness particles that gives me advanced perception when combined with my sensory organs. I believe that once I die, these particles will separate back in into their own individual primitive consciousness (think of this like your consciousness being like static) and that eventually some of all of these particles will reform to make a new consciousness. I also believe in a cyclic universe. Do you think your consciousness is ultimately physical or metaphysical?
Metaphysical, both consciousness and the mind are but not the physical body. Just from another point of view, not trying to butt in on your convo with Outplayz but don't conflate awareness (consciousness) with the mind and the mind with the physical brain or body...it's the brain which decomposes with the physical body not the mind. The brain and the mind are only tools to navigate creation but who you are and your origin exists entirely independent of the brain and the mind. The brain, mind and consciousness are actually three different things although they culminate/combine to isolate your individual experience in this present moment they all have a separate function and order of operation. There is a chain of order and a process of things, you have conscious awareness, then you have the mind, and then you have embodiments to experience through. The embodiments can experience death while both the mind and consciousness stay in tact and this is possible because of how the Creator covered the soul...the order of how we are individualized.
The (individualized) mind, which exists independent of the brain is an energetic field that surrounds the soul where consciousness stores memory and information where it develops it's own personality, it is dependent on consciousness but not the physical body and so survives the physical death and remains as long as consciousness is using it. The physical body is the manifestation of the mind, and the mind is a manifestation of consciousness....the mind does not exist without an observer and the body does not exist without first a mind, but awareness is what illuminates the mind.
The mind itself is inanimate and machine-like in nature and you can observe this with the activity of people who are controlled by it, however, like awareness it does not need a human body to stabilize it's existence so both the conscious soul and the mind survive what we know as death of the body, and the ego, or your personality remains intact. The only thing that changes is your vehicle not your observation point, all the information that creates what you are now gets carried over no matter the vehicle your using because that "information" or blueprint of yourself is not dependent on human or earthly form and the "particles" that make up that form. It has its own isolated frequency. When you leave the physical body you will be conscious in the astral/spirit body, your mind will still be intact. You have several subtle bodies that you will observe through while your mind still exists. I'll try and explain a little below how that works.
The reason I pointed this out is so you understand that physical death does not mean the death of the mind and that your mind is not a clump of consciousness particles lol, your conscious being (soul) was first an agency which then uses the mind so your mind is a clump of experiential knowledge. Your conscious soul was isolated, confined and sent into the created worlds of duality which you now perceive through embodiments. Your mind is a collection of events but it's more like a library, it has no being other than your presence occupying it.
The mind will survive death because it has it's own energetic frequencies as does the material body, it's records and activities transcend the physical body and so it too remains as the physical body dissipates. This may sound unusual but the mind is an energetic sheath or "area" that surrounds and covers the conscious individualized soul. This is known as the mental body, or subtle body/layer and this allows for consciousness to project it's desires and intentions and stores information as an isolated compartment.
Nothing produces awareness or agency...what produced your individual "agency" was when you were isolated as individual consciousness directly from the heart and desire of the eternal Creator as an expression of that infinite creativity and then covered. You left the Godhead as an agency and you will always be one. When you enter a new experience as a soul inhabiting a new world and a new body it creates the illusion that it's your only life, that you were nothing before it and nothing after it but that's only your physical form and perceptions limiting the full scope of your existence. You can experience much more than the physical sense perceptions!
As long as you maintain the individualized mind (which exists apart from the body) you will exist as your personal ego, what you are think you are right now and what you will be in the future even transitioning forms. When a soul finally exits the individualized, isolated mind it joins the universal mind once again but is now even more aware of its agency and origins. So at no point will you ever lose or reform your being. Consciousness exists independent of forms or embodiments and doesn't "reform", it can change experiences through different forms and new bodies like changing channels but itself (you) stays in tact as the individual observer as well as the infinite observer, both the formed and the formless.
Continued below, damned character limits lol.
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