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@Discipulus_Didicit
That is certainly fine by me. Would you feel comfortable going into detail on any experiences that you have had which you would classify as such personal testimony before I start to ask any questions?
Let me ask two questions, how do you feel about what I've said so far or what do you think about it?
Do you understand fully what I mean about the nature of Theism?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Okay so would you say that testimonial evidence is your main reason for believing what you do about spirituality? In other words if there were no such testimonials you would be less likely to believe the way you do?
If there were no testimonials I would be squarely left with my own observation, logic and reasoning. If there were no testimonials that would eliminate religion entirely, as its based on personal observation and applications and recorded. Since religion and spirituality are the study of that nature, without it there wouldn't be much to compare to. To me it's obvious that a Creator exists and the universe was created, and while that's no argument that is my own conviction. Since I do have that conviction, I weigh the arguments (what I call surface level arguments), examine religious claims and spirituality as a whole and use cross referencing and my own encounters and experience as my strongest tool of observing what may be true, or IMO what is true.
If you will allow me to simplify to just saying 'testimonial evidence' in general to save time typing then I have no problem with that answer. In your previous post I was a bit, overwhelmed I guess for lack of a better word, by your listing out of all the different kinds of testimonials. It did not cross my mind to simply condense to the idea of testimonials in general. I am okay with that if you are.
Yes, we can judge it as a whole. This allows for cross examination. So yes, I don't mind if we simplify it to just testimonial evidence, which BTW includes my own. So, I'm not just going by other peoples testimonies, I'm considering them with my own.
Okay, as long as I understand what you are trying to say I won't mention anything. If you notice the same of me I wouldn't mind you pointing it out though. I try to use as clear and proper language as possible so if I am unknowingly screwing it up and you point it out then you are helping me.
I think everything at this point should be pretty clear. One thing to remember about me is that I've been studying and applying religion and spirituality since I was a young kid on my own accord. So I have had a lot of time to observe what is going on.
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@IlDiavolo
By the way, have you seen spiritual beings? Are you sure it wan't a sort of hallucination or dream? I usually see "things" but only in dreams and when I dream awake. When I'm totally awake I see nothing.
No sir, clear as day I do not hallucinate ever and I barely remember my dreams nor have I ever been on any form of medications to boot. I was wide awake and clearly saw them. I've had a few lucid dreams but no, I'm talking wide awake jack.
Remember though as I was saying before, the soul has several layers that confine its experience to a particular plane of existence and can have experiences through any one of those layers. With an NDE the person is forced to observe it because they temporally leave the physical body but it can be practiced before death to observe the reality beyond the physical sense perceptions. This is where soul travel makes an interesting entry.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I asked for you to choose just one or at most two similar pieces of the strongest evidence you can think of not because I wanted to limit you but instead because it is easier to have a two-way conversation about a few things at a time than to have a two-way conversation about ten things at a time.
Perhaps you don't understand, I'm not using one or two pieces of evidence (I know you're asking for that but it's not necessary), I'm considering testimonial evidence as a whole, which includes all that I mentioned. If you want a couple examples, I can send you a link where NDE encounters are shared along with corroborating medical facts. There is no single piece of evidence that form my beliefs, my beliefs are based on a lifetime of observation and examining sources which includes cross referencing. But, as I've said my own encounters and observations are what really matters in terms of gaining confidence and knowing rather than guessing or assuming. My own observation includes direct encounters as well as the application of spiritual principles and teachings.
Can you accept that as a legit or satisfactory answer? if not then you will have to explain why you won't consider it. I'm just speaking for myself though since you asked. I know it comes across as possibly strange to be talking about testimonial evidence, but you have to consider what I'm saying. The nature of God is transcendental to the physical sense perception, that eliminates the type of evidence we would gather through a scientific way of observing a phenomenon, this leaves us with experiential knowledge and first hand observations. The only other way to observe Theism is by getting involved, applying things and participating. If you do none of that, it's like asking someone to learn how to play guitar without ever picking it up or practicing. Spirituality is a cultivation, it has a progressive nature to it which is the development of the individual.
Can we have a two-way conversation about what I just wrote?
Also, 'evidences' is not the correct plural form of evidence.
If you're going to play grammar police, you will have your hands full. I'd rather just move forward without the lessons thanks.
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@Mopac
and he likes to talk about me to others in front of me.
Perhaps he got that tactic from you.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I tried to engage with EV and TS in another thread and both brushed me off. It made me feel sad and unloved.
Ha I'll check out your response and get to it (hopefully it will be worth it), pardon the time lapses I am not brushing you off (yet) I can't spend all day everyday on here like others. But yes, you're loved...! the deeper you guys engage with me in spiritual/religious topics and are willing to be openminded I'll have more motivation.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Your original answer to the OP mentioned that you have evidence that your beliefs are true, would you mind giving us one or two examples of the strongest evidence you have?
Here is what I wrote....
"I believe there are transcendental (spiritual) experiences because of the abundance of evidence as well as my own observations and encounters."
The abundance of evidence (understanding that "evidence" is that which is an indicator something is true, as opposed to it not being true) that the soul leaves the physical body is observed through NDE testimonies, OBE's, spiritual encounters, transcendental experiences, soul travel, religious teachings/sources ect ect. There is more testimonial based evidence for spirituality than any other topic. I've looked at the materialistic approach to consciousness and I find it lacking, and does not account for the full scope of human experience. This is my opinion of course, and my judgment interpreting the evidence which includes my own encounters and observations.
To answer your question, there isn't just one or two examples of testimonial evidence, there are mounds of evidence if you include spirituality as a whole, examine NDE's and cross referencing spiritual sources. Now, the reason we shift to testimonial based evidences is due to the nature of the Creator. Since the nature of the Creator transcends the physical sense experience a material based medium or study such as say how science operates is inadequate, we can't reach or observe the reality of God through anything other than spirituality and examining the evidence which correlates with that nature. And when we are willing to do that, the evidences are unavoidable, to not even consider it would be IMO intellectually dishonest.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It sounds like a comforting idea
And so would it sound like a comforting idea to God as well?? if not, why?
but does that actually have anything to do with whether the idea is correct?
Would you put limits on an eternal Creator/Higher consciousness? what about it strikes you as incorrect... say.....if you were God and there were countless souls, cultures, traditions, communities, interests, passions, desires ect ect whithin your own creation?
Warning: Rambling coming lol
When souls leave the physical body they don't just vanish the soul keeps on experiencing, the after worlds or what some hypothesize as the multiverses are much like our own universe. All the created worlds (including the one's experienced after death) have virtually endless galaxies and planets within those galaxies. Basically there are endless experiences for the soul to have, endless places to journey. People and religion tend to limit God and try too hard to categorize the Creator and fit God into little religious boxes. God is much more dynamic and creative then anyone could imagine. As we see with NDE's and sources that examine soul travel and the subtle bodies (or spirit bodies) there can be different experiences and encounters some of which has to do with the Karma of the individual or what condition they are in leaving the physical world.
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@IlDiavolo
Are you familiar with the term "subtle body" in Hinduism and some schools of Buddhist thought?
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I sympathise a lot with Buddism because it appears to be more coherent for our human nature. There are not creatures nor ghosts to be afraid of, and most importantly, it's not hypocrite.
That's cool, although I'm not sure what the last sentence means. For certain (IMO), there exists creatures and spiritual beings outside or transcendent of the physical domain but there is no reason for fear. I've seen spiritual beings as well as what people refer to as ghosts and there was no fear involved. The only thing we need to fear is our actions and the consequences thereof.
I actually study Buddhism as well, I'd like to spend more time on it though.
In Buddhism, you understand that emotions, either positive (like happiness) or negative (like suffering), are inevitable and you cant get rid of them. However, it's possible to reduce these feelings by means of meditation so you can feel less the impact, especially the negative ones, which basically make us suffer.
I agree, another way to say it is to practice not using the mind and chasing thoughts and be more present in the moment where you can simply observe without interference of the mind, thoughts or emotions. It's actually the mind that creates a corrupted perception and bad habits which are reinforced through emotion. Meditation is a great tool, it helps the individual learn the distinction between these aspects of ourselves.
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@IlDiavolo
Buddhism also teaches dispassion as a way to the enlightment
Oh cool I didn't know you were Buddhist, are you? that would be great. Mopac here is scared of Hinduism and eastern philosophy lol, even though he has ripped off their terminology.
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True Christianity (teachings of Jesus) is about application and exemplifying what Jesus represents, it has nothing to do with the corruption of religious authority and control. One equals spiritual development the other equals spiritual retardation/impairment and incompetence.
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@Mopac
It is a very dangerous religion.
The only one scared and worried is you, that would be due to the insecurity of causing division, discord and strife.
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@Mopac
It is also wrong to take etrnlvw's opinion as being Christian, because he is not a Christian
And this is the type of disease and prelest that infects religion and people today and it is a real shame. This is exactly why religion has become a joke in the eyes of so many and why love and unity will never prosper and why Jesus came to overturn what a guy like Mopac represents. And we all thought he was leaving....
Speak for yourself, I know it's hard to be conditioned to accept that God and spiritual development are about special clubs but you still have a chance to grow up.
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@IlDiavolo
Because they didn't love one another. Had his words been heeded to, it would have been impossible for anyone to have been hurt.
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@IlDiavolo
What was Jesus thinking when he said that?
I'm guessing he was speaking from the heart, as he instinctually felt that way. And probably was thinking there's no reason why people should not be this way with everyone, as it would obviously change the world. It might seem unreasonable when looking at all the horrific things that happen but spirituality seeks to challenge the individual. Raise the bar so to speak. And Jesus obviously made an impact, he resurfaced the face of religion and how people see God and should treat others.
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@IlDiavolo
Besides, I was refering to the second new commandment that says something like this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". I mean, do you really think I can be obliged to love someone, whatever the meaninig of love is? What was Jesus thinking when he said that?
I don't know what is good for you, but it naturally resonated with me and so that is how I approach people. I don't need to think it, I feel it naturally.
Maybe you can do such thing because of your weird personality,
LMAO.
but common people cannot comply with that because love is out of their control, love is not rational but more instinctive.
And that is how I instinctually feel. I'm not speaking for everyone.
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@IlDiavolo
That is exactly the point, Et. Compassion is not the same as love
Okay. Perhaps. Maybe they are very similar.
, because love, as well as hatred, are so meaninful words
That was my point. Perhaps go look them up.
that you can't use them whenever and however you want.
Of course I can why not? who are you to judge what I think or feel?
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@IlDiavolo
My initial feelings for people are compassion and devotion, perhaps those are better terms but as I said love has many descriptions. IRL I rarely have shallow relationships because I always get deeply involved with friends and people I meet. People love me and I love them, I like a strong comradery I've never really been shellfish towards people or those I know even when I was a young boy perhaps that's why I have no enemies or foes in my life. The internet however is another matter, in forums like these people are cut throat they don't seem to care about any of those things unfortunately. A lot of my personality was influenced by Jesus as I read the Gospels as a kid and really admired his work and heart. That kinda carried over to how I look at people and treat them, it's not by commandment though it just comes naturally, it resonates with me in a real way.
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Having said that, spirituality maximizes each of our abilities and expressions of compassion an all directions as it should, doesn't mean that it was not already there, it just challenges the individual to maximize those qualities. Or, it should anyways as we all know there's plenty of evil religious folks.
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I always thought the argument from morality is just a weak argument. There's no reason to believe that without a God people can't have a moral code or instinct. Not to mention how irritating it would be for an atheist to be told they can't have a moral compass without God. It's just dumb TBH.
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@IlDiavolo
Lol, well I don't know about Mopac but it depends on how you define love. I wouldn't say I love you like I love my wife, but there are many descriptions for love and that is my initial response to anyone. Doesn't mean I can't get irritated or that someone can't piss me off, it means that is how I want to interact with people by loving them and being loved. It's just the way I am.
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@keithprosser
Awareness is separated by levels and states/conditions of awareness. So...while I might be aware of some things, there could be other things I am not aware of. It's all a learning curve of course, aren't there grade levels in the education system? what's your point?
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Not answering this for you and not replying to you, this is for the readers so they have more than your ignorance to ponder.
Not everyone needs to believe in God for there to be a God goofball and not everyone needs to embrace the same beliefs for there to be an objective transcendent Reality involved. There's a reason for all states of consciousness but beliefs can be irrelevant to what is actual. If people accepted Karma and reincarnation they would know why so many forms of beliefs, lack of beliefs and circumstances exist. So yeah, a soul can either choose to be born within that circle, or they can placed within that circle to learn what they need to learn, there is more than just beliefs the condition of the soul and what it needs to experience comes first. North Korea is a majority atheist state and this could be a place where a soul is sent that was too religious in their previous experience or perhaps they abused their beliefs and now they must experience something to curve that. The average person might not be aware of how dynamic creation is and why things exist as they are.
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@disgusted
Has it ever come across to you, that you don't belong in a religion forum? being senile is no excuse, go play with your grandkids for God's sake.
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@3RU7AL
A better description would be "eternal substance". Something that is eternal and unchanging cannot "move". It might only "apparently move" from a subjective viewpoint, like that of a human, but to an objective observer, who necessarily views all things and all times with equal clarity, "movement" is "impossible". Thank you Parmenides.
The conscious state of the Creator is a static Reality this is correct, it's a fixed state of awareness that permeates everything. Out of that fixed state of awareness comes forth "movement" and all of creation. However, energy is present with conscious activity and we observe this in the fabric of our universe, this energy is manipulated to create form within that fabric. The Big bang was an explosion generated by this Reality, and this explosion created a giant molding pot for the Creator to manifest whatever It wanted. The amount of energy created from an omnipresent, conscious Source is incredible.
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I've never been a fan of Darrell.
Ahh that sucks. You look like a Pantera guy lol.
He's a talented guitarist, but his artistry is too random for my tastes.
Yeah he's not my fav but their music has so much energy, I like it better than I did back in the day. Did you listen to the end of "This love"?
Walk is a good example. The solo in that song makes no musical sense with the rest of the melodies.
I think I know where you're coming from but I think it's just his style which is kind of berserko, he's also always played the rhythm and lead by himself. What guitar player are you in to?
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Phil Anselmo and Dimebag Darrell are Demi-Gods!
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@Castin
Here's a small example, even though religions have different terminology for different expression and concepts the ideas are generally the same/universal. Check out Hinduism's Brahman, keeping in mind that it's just a name for something they are trying to interpret. This term doesn't just apply to one religion, it encompasses all that exists.
"In Hindu philosophy, Brahman (ब्रह्म) is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists and the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe"
"Brahman to be the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes.[4][6][7] Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe."
"Brahman is identical to the Atman, is everywhere and inside each living being, and there is connected spiritual oneness in all existence."
Now, notice how this is a universal concept not just pinned down to one religious source. Let me know if this makes any sense I really want you to grasp what I'm getting at here.
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@disgusted
What do you think of religions or doctrines that say everything about the Creator comes from one source, like the Bible?
Could you give me an example or passage that I could evaluate? do you study eastern philosophy, not all books or religious texts make such a claim. They are more concerned with interpreting what they are observing. Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism do not carry themselves in that way, it's mainly the snot-nosed flavors of Christianity that do that. Jesus was quite a unique character so in that sense he does stand out in the crowd, but this is what creates a sense of collectivity and culture. These cultures BTW exist outside this realm, and there are many, and many heavens as well. While good Christians may progress to that heavenly abode, a good Hindu or Buddhist gets to join their community of believers in paradise. This is how the created realms operate. God is not so ignorant or confused, people are.
There isn't just one place or two when the soul leaves the body. Karma and reincarnation also play roles in where the soul will journey next.
In order to preserve a sense of authenticity, religions have to assign divine authority to some sources but not others. Otherwise followers won't know what's right and what's not. This often seems to make a holistic approach to spirituality difficult. At least from what I've seen in western religion.
It's not difficult at all people just WANT to make it difficult, of course religions have to have a sort of creed and that is what makes different sources unique, why people believe they are special, all that is irrelevant though. Different flavors, like reading many books with the same conclusions and purpose for the soul even though the story may vary. Most people are either confused or hesitant to understand that creation and Theism are very dynamic and are afraid to look at all of them (sources) as potential knowledge. No one should pin down God to one Source, all souls are capable of relating and experiencing the Divine, not just one group and they all have things to offer humanity to learn from. Having said that, there are many universal truths within many forms of spirituality because like I said, the purpose for the soul remains the same, which is to progress and learn of higher experiences.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The level of sarcasm in this section just isn't worth it anymore. I'd like to see some truly genuine curious people join this site.
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Amazing seriously, simplicity just goes right over the head. Not sure why people here even ask questions.
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Just on the odd chance anyone wants to know, my main sources I examine from are Vedanta (Hinduism), the Bible, Native American spirituality, mysticism, Eckankar, Sikhism and Buddhism. I also study first hand encounters, NDE's, OBE's and soul travel. Mostly everything I observe and argue come from one of those sources. I don't "make" things up or create my own beliefs, I share what I observe about my experiences and things that make sense within the spiritual arena.
There is no one source and one God and all others sources are false. That is not how this works, all souls can have defining experiences with the Creator at many different levels, as well there are countless societies which exist outside this one which accounts for an array of experiences and knowledge. Doesn't mean everything is right, doesn't mean everything is wrong, this is for the soul to learn and experience.
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@keithprosser
Thanks but I'll wait for an intelligent response, learn how to read what someone writes. I never created anything smart azz, everything I say I can source. An Omnist is someone who respects or looks into all forms of spirituality.
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@keithprosser
Faith is not even applicable until trust and confidence have been established. Trust and confidence are established through knowing, and knowing through experience. This is how faith works. Faith IS plain old trust and confidence....with a spiritual twist.
I like to call faith 'belief beyond the evidence' rather than without evidence. Evidence can suggest something is possibly or probably true; faith then raises it to certainty.
Then we agree, the claim "faith means belief without evidence" is not valid, especially in the spiritual arena?
In order to effectively put faith in something, the confidence must already be present, faith is the opposite of doubt.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware of the definitions of faith. I'm just telling you what is more accurate, assuming you are interested in this discussion. I'm not going to give you just definitions I'm going to share from experience and knowledge of scriptural texts....where the term originated.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Why do you believe your religion is right?
I prefer to learn from all sources if they make sense. Spirituality is a huge arena, no reason to confine all of the Creator to one source that would be absurd. Religions are the interpretation of what we observe in the Theistic world, albeit a very dynamic one and not everything is accurate, and many things are true. The point of spirituality is to get involved and figure all these things out for the self.
I believe there are transcendental (spiritual) experiences because of the abundance of evidence as well as my own observations and encounters. From there it's all about putting the pieces together, getting involved and applying things you would normally not.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
'Belief without evidence' is a valid definition of the word faith, though not the only valid definition.
Valid? really? what is wrong with the definition "trust and confidence in someone or something". Why pick the most secular, most weak version of faith to discuss when that definition means nothing? it takes away the very edge of faith and what makes it effectual. It's a universal principle, it has nothing to do with believing in things without evidence. Spiritual faith is based on trust and confidence which is based on knowledge and experience. I can show you what I mean in the Gospels, what faith was intended for. As I already wrote, its an element we use to overcome obstacles. Can anyone use faith? yes they can and we see it in many aspects of life.
This idea that faith is all about believing things with no evidence is a farce, faith is an action.
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@Goldtop
It's common knowledge consciousness is a result of brain activity, which is where it originates. You can look it up if you want, but I know you won't bother because facts and evidence aren't anything that concerns you.
Lol because I don't look things up, sure haven't heard the materialist view and of course I never choose what is more a sufficient proposition, get real dude you're always trying to start fights. It's boring TBH. It's not the topic I ignore, it's the troll I ignore and you know it. Archy is free to ask me whatever he wants to ask about the subject.
You're free to pretend the hard questions of consciousness have been factually solved and are not mere speculation based on a limited approach but don't come to the religion forum acting like you're superior to Theists and we're just retarded, either admit all you have is speculation based on "activity in the brain" or just admit you have no idea what and why things are conscious. Feel free to explain what mechanism creates your being, your awareness and by what processes, explain how neurons firing create a conscious entity if you'd like. Spirituality answers all the hard questions, really easily actually. Because consciousness is not created, does not arise from matter, does not arise as a complex arrangement of matter, all that is speculation based on a faulty premise. Consciousness is awareness out of which all creation arises, the very nature of conscious activity is like energy it neither created nor destroyed, it is both formless and takes on form...eternal.
The brain is nothing but a component, which is the connection to the physical body from the soul, it confines your conscious experience to this physical body in the same way electricity is confined to a circuit board through electrical components. When the physical body drops, your conscious soul is released and of course we have an abundance of evidence for that fact. The material form is nothing but a mask for the soul to inhabit so it can experience this world. The soul enters the womb and is developed and connected to the nervous system and confined to the experience of the brain. The soul has several subtle layers culminating in the physical outermost form, however the physical layer is the most restricted layer as opposed to the spirit form or body but the soul itself is without form it is simply conscious.
"The nature of consciousness seems to be unique among scientific puzzles. Not only do neuroscientists have no fundamental explanation for how it arises from physical states of the brain, we are not even sure whether we ever will."
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@Discipulus_Didicit
That's good to hear. Perhaps certain religious doctrines and ideas about God make God out to be stupid, but everyone seems to want to hang on to those things even atheists. I can't get an atheist to agree that faith is not about believing in something with no reason or evidence. As well as other things on the list. It's like every time I make a positive point I get blamed for "making up my own version" lol, can't win.
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@Castin
Interesting. I've always seen this story as an attempt to shift blame away from God and onto us, but you're right -- it also tries to shift blame away from us and onto the "outside agent" of the snake. At least, partial blame.Where does the chain of blame end? What is the source?It's not God's fault, it's man's fault.It's not man's fault, it's Eve's fault.It's not Eve's fault, it's the Serpent's fault.
You're not conceptualizing this enough, you're still trying to literalize it. Remember what I said about Adam and Eve representing mankind as a whole. The story is not saying to shift the blame, it's showing you the nature of man, and how MAN shifts blame....this is what we do to avoid accepting accountability.
It's like we had such a hard time explaining where Badness comes from that we set up this chain of regression that ended up at "There was this snake and he was just bad. He was bad from the beginning."
I think you're missing the point, try reading the account as if it's showing you how humans like to do things in their weakened or tempted states rather than a lesson teaching you where something originated. The story is revealing how we do things. Get the talking snake out of your head and replace it with how man is tempted.
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@Castin
Thanks for answering.
You're welcome.
That's not a bad takeaway. Do you mean the snake was supposed to represent sexual temptation only?
No ma'am, temptation as a whole. Sexual temptation is only one aspect. Being tempted with anything that would go against your desire to do good or honor God. I would argue that before mankind does anything evil or stupid he was first tempted....meaning thought about it, pondered it, calculated ect ect. The serpent represents the "whispers" in our minds and thoughts before we make decisions.
So you don't think the Serpent was the devil at all? Actually, do you even believe in the devil? I can't remember you ever saying.
Certainly there are malevolent entities that exist, this is creation and duality exists to both extremes meaning all beings and spiritual beings can act to any degree of good or evil. But, I can't say there is a "devil" as in the one depicted in the Bible. Here's what I know, every time the devil is mentioned it symbolizes the negative forces or something opposed to the Divine and so I keep things simple. To me the "devil" just represents the negative aspects or the negative forces in creation and we should be wise to those things and keep strong. They are one and the same meaning.
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@IlDiavolo
Besides, what you experience is not the same at all as what other people experience. So, this is not a good way to demonstrate there is a higher consciousness around.
It would help if you knew the origin of consciousness, we've discussed it before I believe I created a topic on that. You are consciousness (which is also the pure form of God), that is your observation point. The key, is to learn about the physical body, the reason for the brain and the coverings/layers of the soul. The brain simply confines your conscious experience to the physical body it's just a component. The conscious soul is looking through the bodies, through the mind, emotions and outer physical layer. You can pull yourself back to that observation point, as well you have a connection to each layer of experience including the astral body which is the first body you pull back to when you leave the physical form. This you see common in NDE's, OBE's and experiences with the afterlife and spirits, but the soul has actually more than just an astral spirit form. That's where this get interesting.
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@IlDiavolo
Alright, I'm not willing to discuss a language that is not even my mother tongue anyway.
Haha, just pointing out that you don't need to use the term God in place of knowledge if you don't even accept a God exists. That's a little strange, it's kind of not needed unless of course you do accept the Creator exists and wish to argue that God (as a Being or higher consciousness) possesses all knowledge and everything in creation comes out of the universal mind. Then in that sense, knowledge can be affiliated with "God".
I'm not saying there couldn't be a higher conciousness. I'm just saying that your "God" described by judaism tradition can't be that higher conciousness you refer to.
But as I explained I'm an Omnist, meaning I learn about God in every form through all legit forms of spirituality...not just the Bible. I will agree what is correct in the Bible and I will disagree with what is not. All in all my beliefs are not limited to just the Bible. The Bible has some good information but it's not perfect.
Besides, what you experience is not the same at all as what other people experience. So, this is not a good way to demonstrate there is a higher consciousness around.
That is irrelevant, you are purposed to learn what it truth and what is error despite what anyone tells you. First hand experience is the only way to demonstrate spirituality to the self. And that of course is due to the nature of Theism and spirituality.
That's interesting. You must know then that Judaism was a consequence of several traditions and religions that appeared before. So neither Judaism nor Christianity (which is nothing more than a heresy of Judaism) are original religions, but they were moulded and evolved over time based on other beliefs.
Well let me be frank, the Bible is not all copied it has its own perceptions and unique works. Could some things have been borrowed? sure, but they could still put there own meaning behind any illustrations or story. So, I'm going to hesitate on agreeing with you here because I do happen to really admire Jesus and what he exemplified in the Gospels and to me, they are definitely unique. Jesus was certainly a spiritual Master. But, there are more than one spiritual Masters and they come in many forms all with the same basic purpose for the soul. These Masters come to this planet and help redeem mankind and their corrupt ways. Note, the opponents of Jesus in the Gospels were the corrupt religious authorities not the common man/sinner. The organized religious system had no idea what it meant to abide in the light of God. Everything to them are rules, doctrines and wealth/power/control.
Ok, let's say people misrepresent reality and what they are taught all the time, which is a well documented phenomenon. As an example, Jesus was a simple human being as you and me, but he was so outstanding as preacher that his followers started to magnify and exagerate his figure and the stories around him, as a consequence it appeared fantastic stories such as the miracles, the resurrection, the appearences of dead prophets and so on, all of them exagerated by his followers and based on hearsay. In fact, it's almost true, according to many scholars, that Jesus was married and had a boy. But once again, that couldn't be an appealing story for a new religion, so his followers changed the story in order to magnify Jesus. Even the belief that he's a God started very late after the Christian church foundation. You must know the story, it's very well known, Christians got divided into two groups, the ones who believe Jesus was God and the others who believe Jesus was just a prophet. And I can tell more, but I guess you can find it out by yourself.
I'm not going to discount the idea or claim the Gospels were exaggerated or facts and teachings were left out. On the other hand, I will remind you that the Gospels come across as very genuine and Jesus WAS a spiritual Master. Masters are unusual and the higher the level the more profound the manifestations/abilities. Even if some of the accounts were exaggerated Jesus was certainly an above average man just judging by his disposition and ethics. I seriously doubt there was a good enough motive to make up this Jesus character in the time it took place, for it would have been certain suicide. The only thing that makes sense, is that Jesus existed and defied the religious rulers and was murdered for it. But again, I'm not a fundamentalist so my beliefs are not the same as a lot of the misconceptions and bizarre doctrines you mainly hear of.
As far as Jesus being God, this traces back to Hinduism and eastern thought. Jesus actually said we are all sons of God (Gospel of Thomas) as well as we are "one". Jesus' confession that he was one with the father (God) is actually not new, we all come out of the heart of God as sons and daughters not just some souls....ALL souls and so in essence there really is no distinction between the very nature of God and the nature of the individualized soul other than our limited states of awareness. God has access to all channels of awareness and Jesus was killed for an Eastern system of thought and belief.
Basically you are not required to buy into religious doctrines if they don't sit well with you, as I said you are an individual on your own spiritual path and you have all the keys within yourself.
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@keithprosser
No, A. Read the first four words. If you thought that was complicated God help ya.
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@keithprosser
Help the old lady while getting a good look at the perpetrator, then call authorities with a good description. My reasoning would be that lets say I caught the perpetrator, maybe kicked his arse...how long do you think I could hold him there until the police were notified? meanwhile the old lady would be unattended and most likely, the perp would be someone who walks those streets regularly then getting a good description could prove useful. So I would most likely help the lady (choice A) and stay with her until the authorities arrived.
A couple more points to consider, what if the perp had a knife? or something..
What if you chased the perp, came back and the old lady was gone?
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A bunch of primitive, incredibly inept, superstitious morons with no concept of logic nor reason wrote the book of Genesis. The end.
OR.....it could have spiritual overtones touching on the two natures man contends with in this world using imagery and figurative language that has more than one layer of meaning. Then, the story becomes genius rather than just being written by "a bunch of primitive, incredibly inept, superstitious morons". Of course, the former takes a little more intelligence and intuition to unwrap.
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@Castin
In the story, this one creature is responsible for the existence of all suffering. It literally ruins everything. And it knowingly and sneakily causes this to happen. Why? What did the authors intend this creature to be?
Temptation, the snake represents our flesh nature.
Where did such malicious intent come from?
It's what man contends with in these physical bodies.
And was this supposed to be a real snake, or a representation of something else?
Adam and Eve are representative of mankind, and the "serpent" represents the pull of carnality or the opposing forces in this world. (Flesh vs spirit).
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@Mopac
So in other words if a soul does not deserve to go to hell, it doesn't go to hell and certainly doesn't get sent there because of "beliefs". That soul is given the chance to learn though lifetimes and circumstances (which could be a form of hell in itself). And as I said, if it does deserve hell through its actions, it's only temporal, the sentence in prison is congruent with the crime committed.
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