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@BrutalTruth
"Ad homs" are insults used with the intention of refuting an argument. My words to you held no such intention. Currently you are proving that you have no understanding of what a logical fallacy is. Do you wish to continue showing signs of being an imbecile, or would you like to cut your losses and be quiet?
Ad hominem-
is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[
I presented my argument and you responded with the above....I'll wait here while you create an argument or response of some type rather than ad homs.
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@BrutalTruth
A man says "God told me this will happen in 100 years." 100 years later, said thing happens. This does not prove that the god this man claims told him this actually did tell him this, nor does it prove that this god even exists. It doesn't even prove that the man knew it was going to happen. The only thing it proves, in fact, is that the man happened to be right. Be it by pure happenstance, foreknowledge, or a god, neither have been proven. This is a perfect example of what I'm referring to when I say that Christians have no concept of what constitutes evidence and/or proof.
Ahh, a thing you won't have to worry about when discussing religion and God with me, but you keep creating ad-homs, I can argue for Theism without the Bible. But you will never know as long as you keep insulting me and not engaging me with content.
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@BrutalTruth
Currently, you are showing signs of a horrible member and your accusations for why you claim I'm a coward or imbecile have no relevance or legitimacy. Try again? perhaps become involved in a religious discussion that this forum has prepared for you, or run away and keep creating ad-homs?
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@Ramshutu
What evidence is that? that precludes the existence of God?
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@BrutalTruth
If one displays signs of idiocy, and/or proves that they're an idiot, and one, in turn, says they're an idiot, that is not an insult, rather it is a statement of fact.
And can you show those instead of claiming them? rather easy to claim someone is an idiot without showing why....
Someone who claims statements of fact to be opinions is claiming to be intelligent, and you're surprised at why I'm not interested in what that person has to say? Comical.
What statement of facts? Mister Formal Debate?
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@BrutalTruth
I'm surprised you have nothing to say at all, TBH. So far, I have yet to know what that is besides insults, you haven't presented anything other than your opinions of Theists. Let me know though, you may be surprised such an unintelligent man can show you some things.
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@Outplayz
I'm not here to feel warm and safe that is not what I am suggesting at all. I've been in this business for more than a decade, I'm not talking about opposition and neither is anyone else. Don't know why you are supportive of abusive traits. Not confrontational but abusive.
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@BrutalTruth
Yes you did insult me because you never asked, you assumed and made judgements about my character. Your opinions strike me as someone being exactly what they are accusing others as. Until you release those opinions and do more than label me that's all you really have to go by. Why not just strike up an intelligent conversation and see who is the one that is stubborn. You strike me as the type of person you accuse others as being, one that believes they are absolutely correct. And as I've pointed out, you can see that in your OP.
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@Raltar
There are destructive people in this forum even though they may never violate the COC (in which Disgusted has more than done) and which people may never really get what is going on, stalking may be done in secrecy unless someone is really watching. Such a case as with this topic where someone is willing to defend the actions of an abuser because he may have followed some rules, it would be like me letting some pervert stalk my daughter as long as no laws were broken. Goldtop is and always has been an abuser, whether he follows the rules or not, same with disgusted. Most people may not realize that both Goldtop and disgusted have an agenda for being in this forum.
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@Stephen
I personally find absolutely nothing inspiring about the bible.
Wow, If you don't find anything inspiring about an afflicted people becoming the spiritual force in the world, and the testimony of Jesus in a religiously darkened world what could possibly inspire you? inspiration comes from defeating the odds, Jesus' life was one of those amazing odds that changed the world. He singlehandedly resurfaced the face of religion. Could you do that, in a world where you are at total odds? welcome to the world of Jesus.
There are, without question, some lovely fluffy things written in these scriptures but to go so far as to say they are inspiring" as many people I know profess they are, they come unstuck when trying to explain what and why they find the scriptures "inspiring".
Maybe those "fluffy things" in scripture aren't inspiring because you have a conspiracy theory behind everything spiritual and worth anything? in other words they are not inspiring because you don't personally believe it, that's called opinion, where you make up crap to replace the reality of it all.
Seriously, who can get inspired by someone saying " take up thy bed and walk"?Or
Seriously, who CANNOT get inspired by such an inspirational figure like Jesus of the Gospels who could declare that a man ridden in his bed can rise and walk just by through the power of believing and could love despite being hated? who was a rebel, a passionate lover of God and a man that understood the power of love and works vs talk......unless one were to assume Jesus as a fictional character why is He not an inspirational figure?
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@Outplayz
The difference would be presenting arguments for the content of said post, rather than just shooting off ad-hom attacks. For instance, I could claim you are insane or delusional rather than argue the actual topics of discussion. Welcome to Goldtops world and you should know this quite well. You wouldn't recognize his harassment much unless you were the victim of it over and over. You see, I can follow someone around following most of the COC and yet still be a harasser...how? I believe you can figure that out for yourself, it is called targeting and anything can be said as long as it does not violate any COC....you are looking to much at the surface of things. Goldtop is obviously a member who lowers the level of discourse here in almost every thread and depending upon what stance you take you may believe he is legitimate in his attacks but they are still attacks. Just like what you see with Disgusted, why he has been allowed to continually insult and harass members here is beyond me but here he is, in almost every religious topic insulting people, how is that??
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@BrutalTruth
For a Christian, you seem like a rather intellectually honest individual. You may ask me whatever questions you like about what I believe and why. I may even agree to debate you on these forums, if you promise to admit defeat if you are defeated.
Are you ready to free form your arguments against God in this arena or are you still hiding behind a formal debate (where you are limited by rounds)? let me know I am willing to discuss/debate all aspects of Theism/spirituality. You could have just asked me why I haven't participated in formal debates rather than insulting me. Let me know when you are ready or get bored. If you want a clean free form debate/discussion that is what I want too I'm not interested in preparing garbage that cannot be demonstrated, you have yet to give me a chance, you seem content to believe that anyone who does not participate in a formal debate to be "you're either a coward, an imbecile, or are ignorant of what this site is intended for"....(you just insulted more than half the site members).
When you come around and realize those little debates you participate in don't really address much but other peoples opinions through certain sources and links, perhaps you will come to realize free form here is much more dynamic depending upon who you converse with. We are not limited here by time or others opinions, perhaps you jumped the gun in labeling me an imbecile and as a matter of fact I could probably articulate Theism in ways you never though possible.
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@Paul
And if I may ask, what do you label that "activity" and why is it there? are you an atheist? can you explain to me what animation is precisely? what is it that animates and why?
It's called quantum fluctuations, but that's not all there is in empty space. Empty space is also entirely occupied by the Higgs field.
Yes there is nothing "unoccupied" or empty, even in Theism the Creator is omnipresent (no space unoccupied) which I believe fills in all the gaps of believers like you that think awareness comes about by the arrangement of unaware things or mechanical/material processes somehow. If you could consider/accept that matter does not create animation (consciousness) then all mysteries are solved without any struggle. There is only one other solid option, one in which has been articulated for ages through spirituality.
This is not a god of the gaps argument, but a God of consideration argument as it is not without common sense and logic. If you were to consider or believe that quantum fluctuations are the reason awareness exists, it would be an unmitigated conclusion because you cannot explain why they happen and can only use definitions to describe certain reactions or interactions.....and you are measuring the activity not the source of activity just like if you were to measure activity within a circuit board, creation is merely a conduit or a matrix of components manipulated to achieve a certain result and in that result you see the consequences but not the source or reason why.
Materialism is an inferior view and one without any real objective evidence rather it is just speculation based on what can be "measured" or seen it has no real foundation or explanations of why things exist the way they do, it can only measure results and activity. The other however (Theism), has a time tested demonstrable body of facts and evidences that support the reality that conscious/awareness exists independent of a material construct, is not created or destroyed and can be articulated from the Source all the way down to the created.
"Quantum fluctuations" are explained as follows ….
"a quantum fluctuation (or quantum vacuum fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space......quantum fluctuation is the temporary appearance of energetic particles out of nothing."
What is "out of nothing"? you claimed there is no nothing, rather all things are animated and occupied? so which is it? does somethin pop out of nothing or does everything come from something animated? that something being first a conscious reality?
As of yet you have not explained how a temporary change in energy creates awareness all I see above is the measure of activity, I want to know how a quantum fluctuation can make something alive and conscious, how exactly does that work? I'm not asking because I don't know rather I'm asking because you don't know therefore have no real reason to consider one thing over another thing that is inferior, why would you ever accept an incomplete system of knowledge or ideas and claim a superior view to be low of probability?
Why not consider my proposition that awareness is present with energy (it makes sense)? energy is present with conscious activity and that is why it acts as intelligence but it in and of itself does not create awareness, energy is manipulated to create bodies that a conscious being can inhabit or use. Conscious/awareness is neither created or destroyed, only bodies are. Likewise then, energy would co-exist with awareness (God), the two exist mutually only awareness comes first and energy the result of that.
I'm not an atheist, but I believe that god has an extremely low probability of existence.
Then you can articulate how conscious awareness exists? if not, then why does God have an extremely low probability of existence? can you give me an example of a "high probability" reason to explain and account for existence and conscious awareness? if your answer is materialism then you will have to show how that works, show me the mechanics of how certain components become "alive" and by what process. Perhaps you have not decided what animation really is if not awareness, animation means the following...
Animation- the state of being full of life or vigor; liveliness. The state of being alive.
The processes of creation come first through an awareness, a living reality which creates vessels so that awareness can experience through. As you claimed...."there is nothing inanimate" so you admit an animated reality always existed. That would be God Paul, that is the animated reality that is neither created nor destroyed. Consciousness will always exist independent of body and form.
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@Outplayz
That's cool. I'll ease up on the "lol's".
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@RationalMadman
Yes, I was not actually making fun of her or even laughing at her. What I meant by it was I was surprised she had forgotten Goldtops behavior so soon.
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@Outplayz
To be really honest, it is quite rude for you guys to suggest I've laughed at you in an insulting way and cannot provide a single citation or example. I thought we all three had great relations, especially compared to our relationships with Goldtop.
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@Outplayz
I can take what is true, all I asked is that she supply an example of me laughing at her, just one because it was her claim. So that I know what she is referring to. On the contrary I have always supported her. So my asking for an example is perfectly justifiable especially in light of the claim.
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@janesix
I just scrolled through our entire discussion of PM's and nowhere did I laugh at you in the manner you are describing.
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@janesix
have you lost your memory lol?
No memory needed, when you can simply supply a citation of me "lol" at you in an insulting way, at all.....ever. I'd like to see that especially coming from you. As well as Outplayz for that matter. At least I know where you guys stand now. Good to know.
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@RationalMadman
Could you restate that please, there is no dimension or anything "superior" to the Creator and there is nothing outside of God. But yes there is randomness contrary to popular opinion depending on what you are referring to. But do you know what that randomness really is?
It is true there are levels in creation, but they work from the Creator down not the other way around. Meaning that the state of the Creator is a superior state of consciousness/being, everything that follows down from that reality is inferior, or more limited. This is needed of course, to cause separation in a dualistic environment to limit Itself and its attention.
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@janesix
I've stood up for you even when Goldtop was rude to you and insulting your intelligence, you honestly hurt my feelings. Which is not that hard to do but I never expected you to say anything like that.
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@janesix
What do you think lol mrans??
Directly, it means I found something to be humorous. To answer the question. I'm gonna wait until you show me where I was making fun of you or whatever you are suggesting.
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@janesix
Citation of me "lol" to make fun of you please. Why would you ever want to stab me in the back? after all the discussions and private messages over the years you really are being serious? please show me what you are referring to please don't make me play guessing games. I'm seriously blown away right now.
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@janesix
In many of your posts to me, you lol at me. This is just as obnoxious as being called deluded.but it's only obnoxious.
Is this supposed to be a joke? are you being serious or are you talking to someone else? I have never, ever made fun of you, I have always supported you. Please tell me you are directing this elsewhere?
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@Outplayz
I'm not arguing with you my friend but I'm certainly disagreeing with you on this one without any doubts. You're welcome to your opinion but this place will raise in quality without that member, trust me. Should he return I'm going to head out. I've been harassed by this dude for years and I care not to really explain other than I'm surprised you don't see what is going on. Along with one other member and why they ever came here to begin with.
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@janesix
Leave it to you to bring some original topics to the table!! most can't get past "God does not exist, God exists" argument to have any real discussion beyond that. Thanks for the unique topic.
I think that souls are molded and organized by something akin to morphic fields.
What if they were first "organized" by the desire of a Creator? which in turn the blueprint of that individual is stored in an energy field? I have to look up what exactly a morphic felid is but maybe we are thinking the same things just using different terms.
You can also call them archetypes, that are then individuized when the life spark(prana) is added to the morphic field. Not all morphic fields have the life spark, such as the morphic fields for individual atoms or molecules.
Very interesting, I wonder if we could interchange our terms "morphic" with "energy"? energy is kind of like the "fabric" of our universes, it can store information on many levels, many vibrational frequencies including the blueprint of the individualized soul. All in all I agree with where you are going with this. The soul has a blueprint of itself, which is stored in the causal realm. The "life spark" if you are thinking what I', thinking I call the creative imagination, this is what separates the soul from the average "awareness" or morphic field of information.
Morphic fields can exist within other fields, such as an individual ant's field exists within it's community's field. This is also called "holons". Things can exist as a part of the whole, and yet be individuals at the same time.
Do you think energetic frequencies or states of consciousness are the same as a morphic field? and energy follows that energetic pattern or frequency?
God is the morphic field which contains all other fields within itself.
Correct, agree.
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@janesix
Confused really? your satisfied with the content of that members posts and the activity of his conduct towards you and your topics? have you lost your memory lol? aren't you tired of getting the lame ol response "your deluded", you're "mentally ill" you believe in fairy tales? he doesn't bring actual objections to discussions just a biased, emotional opinion. We all wanted something different from this forum so why are we complaining about fair bans?
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@bsh1
Good eye, and TBH most of the threads he is involved in lowers the quality of this place overall, he just has a way of condemning people and instigating crap, harassing certain members that are in contrast to his personal views for extended periods of time.... Now discussions/debate can take place in the forums without it becoming a shyt fest. It is hard not to retaliate, but any action that can be performed to raise the quality of this place and limit nonsense should be taken. We don't want another DDO and lately that is where the threads seem to be going upon the arrival of just TWO members. One in which is still present. One better gone than none though...
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@janesix
I never considered it up until a couple years ago TBH even though the Bible uses those specific words I was sure the Bible was strict monotheism. What I used to believe was that it was meant to apply to our own perceptions not "Jehovah's", meaning God (or Author) was more or less using that term based on our perception or object of worship not Gods. Now that I have more knowledge and acceptance in panentheism I now tend to say yeah it is pretty likely that is what it is saying or at least I'm more open to the idea. Still, I would tend to think there would be a difference between "gods" and God of course, for example the Devil is known as the god of this world....
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@DebateArt.com
We've been played like a deck of cards from a Las Vegas casino dealt by big Busted Barbara. You guys are sick.
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@keithprosser
The success of materialistic science has given us the modern world
Sure, it is a great thing when it its proper domain, nothing wrong with that of course.
and given us confidence that everything can be explained materialistically.
Keep dreaming.
3RU7AL wrote..."Science can only answer "how", it can never answer "why".Certainly "intelligent design" might be "true", but it is not within the realm of science."EtrnlVw wrote..."Then that would be very intelligent of you. This is true in so many ways very good, I wish more people would consider that."
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@Goldtop
You really need to give your head a shake and grow up.
Lol, keep trying.
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@Goldtop
No threats at all. It will happen to all of us, how is that a threat? nice try though...
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"I always wished I could do something better than comics, but there didn't seem to be anything." Stan Lee
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@Polytheist-Witch
Good to see ya around!
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@ethang5
You couldn't toss me if I let you lift me up...
Lol. Don't look at the ground.
LMAO
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@Stephen
" I have made no secret of the fact that it is the scriptures that I have a problem with. Do you see what I did there AGAIN? I have had to explain my stance for the billionth time.This is what I get annoyed about. I have no problem with Christians or Christianity and have never believed I could change their beliefs. I wouldn’t bother trying and that is not my intention. I feel sorry for those Christians Who have believed the stories presented as they are in the New Testament. So for the billionth a 2 times that is where I stand on theist and the scriptures"
You don't seem to comprehend what you say isn't always the case, it is called opinion. That is why it's not only annoying for you, but us as well. I know you have a problem with scriptures, but it's your problem not mine so don't get that twisted. I don't rely on the Bible being a perfect piece of work and so imperfections within stories and accounts have no relevance to me personally or my spiritual development. Does that make sense?
likewise, those imperfections have no relevance to your spiritual development and the Bible scriptures contains knowledge that is useful for you. So maybe if you settle down a bit (and realize the book was created by imperfect writers) you would see that as well and maybe you could learn some important things from it.
Either that or you aren't qualified to interpret them in a legit way because you do not apply spiritual things to yourself?
"No it is “that”. But I notice you too have added remarks on my “qualifications” to read and “interpret”these anomalous, ambiguous half stories, that make up these extremely unreliable scriptures. I have an opinions and I have questions. Nothing qualifies you any more than me to interpret these stories any better or worse."
I'm going by what I see and read from you. Read above, I have never argued for the perfection of the Bible and that is ridiculous. I take from it what is useful and that is the only things that matter anyways.
Gospels mention"some" people murmured amongst themselves that Jesus was out of his mind.
" I have presented verses from many bibles concerning Jesus’ state of mind. You have presented nothing that states any such thing as you claim as “some people” or “people murmuring”. But even if you could, this again would show the inconsistencies that lay within these scriptures. "
It doesn't matter if you paste 200 versions of the same verse lol, you aren't getting the point. The Bible was not claiming Jesus was out of His mind, there were people who thought that and I explained why. Perhaps go back and read what I wrote. Jesus was doing and saying things people never heard before. It's irrelevant that anyone though Jesus was crazy, we can read His actions and teachings and gather our own opinion.
you interpret that as everyone believing Jesus was crazy.
"No I have PRESENTED what is written. He may have or may not have been “crazy”. His mother, the Holy Blessed among All Women Mother Of God and Jesus’ siblings seemed to agree with their mother that he had lost his mind. THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING"
Where does it say Jesus' mother thought he was crazy? besides that, has your mother ever told you that you were out of your mind? people say that all the time about others, it doesn't signify that is was the case, it was an OPINION. Jesus' mother was there with Him until the end, she supported His cause and mission.
We have to discuss those contradictions and whether or not they actually matter in relevance to the soul.
"Well that would be up to you what the “relevance “ of these blatant contradictions actually means to you. But “relevance to the soul” is just swerving the issue. First you have to admit they are there and that they are in fact contradictions.But the “relevance” to me shows, NO, proves , that the scriptures are unreliable and cannot be taken on face value."
Perhaps you don't understand what I meant by relevance to the soul?....those are the only things that matter in scriptures, what actually is relevant to the individual. Everything else is basically irrelevant. So, if you can produce some blatant contradictions regarding what applies to the SELF, we will have to discuss those because I believe they do not exist, at least in the Bible. BTW, my beliefs are not limited by the Bible, I study all forms of spirituality.
Heaven is an ACTUAL planet,
"The Gospel of Judas say similar but this lost gospel calls it a realm named Barbelo, but I would settle on "planet" because the ancient Sumerians relate something similar."
It is a planet within a realm just like the earth in our universe, did you think heaven was in the clouds lol?? it is a planet that exists outside the physical universe, likely in the upper region of the lower half of the grand division of creation. It's not something you could find in our own universe, but within the multi-verses what I call the God-worlds.
"But again the problem we have here is that old Christian adage “ if it ain’t in the bible it ain’t true. And you infer THAT I ! have misread and misinterpreted AND misrepresented and that I don’t know my arse from elbow."
I don't get "all" my information squarely from the Bible or Jewish scriptures as I have said and so that doesn't matter to me.
"I am better read than you give me credit for my friend and and I can assure you; these ancient biblical scriptures I am well read in. "
But do you understand them and how they are relevant to your spiritual being is the key question? you can always be a skeptic but at some point you will have to make a stand.
"Try selling " Jesus was from another ACTUAL planet" to Mopac or Ethang5, Mopac keeps inferring that "Jesus is an alien"."
This is between you and I. They are free to ask me whatever it is they wish to.
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@disgusted
Bye bye Disgusting, talk to ya in a year or so lol. Have fun with your mocking.
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@disgusted
Don't worry little man, it'll be nice and quick. Only you won't be able to bring your mommy with ya....
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I like this one lol....
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@Castin
Yes for sure, who knows what is under the sea right? ocean life is incredible, incredibly vast.
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@disgusted
Disgusting, how long did it take for you and Goldie to find where Ethang and I joined a site? lol, it's okay don't say anything, yals little secret will stay with me. Losers...flattering though, I know how much it means to you.
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@disgusted
You're really scared of death aren't ya old timer lol? you bring it up over and over, even when it's not even being discussed. You know what they say...
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@disgusted
My you use the word "pretend" a lot, must be something you are used to eh?
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@disgusted
Let me know if you ever come up with an argument, I may have a heart attack though.....how many years has it been now and you have never produced a legit debate/argument/response? how old are you again?
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@disgusted
You love it when I give you attention don't you lol? don't get too excited it won't last long.
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@BrutalTruth
If you look at my profile, I do specify that. However, the definition of the word "atheism" is not dependent upon agnosticism, and Gnosticism is an entirely different subject.. They are entirely different concepts that do not interact. Gnosticism is the doctrine that the world was created by a lesser deity than the supreme divine. In other words: It's another type of theism, just as Christianity, Islam, etc. are. Gnostic atheism as a term makes absolutely no sense. That's like saying "the bright dark." It's an oxymoron.
Oh look, suddenly the dummy knows what a discussion is, but then seemed to forget what it was in relation to my post.....either you are scared of something I wrote or you're just too stupid to realize this is a place to discuss/debate religious topics. Either way you dodged my response like a coward.
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@BrutalTruth
Lol, don't wet yourself newcomer. Either put up or shut up. Now is your chance to show what a non-coward you are and show your arguments for what they truly are. Apparently you don't know what a discussion forum is but hey, maybe you'll do something besides run your mouth?
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