Lemming

Ah, that's what you meant. #1605

Well, that is good.

I didn't notice that till now.

I'd think it's easier for isolated communities to practice 'total avoidance of "evil" knowledge,

And I think there 'can be an argument there,

Information/Values/Ideas, 'can be possessing, corrupting as Demons.

Course a flaw then, as you say, is 'resistance,

Though, if a person lives a long life 'avoiding an "evil", they 'themself and assumably their community of like minded people won't be as easily swayed by it.

Naturally preferring their long held habits and values.

. . . But then. . . "evil" doesn't always come in the appearance of a devil.

And it's only with a 'knowledge of "evil", that a sheep clothed wolf might be recognized, slain or avoided.

Also problem of the internet age,

The knowledge is 'always there.

Feeling a 'strong urge to break some rules I disagree with, for the principle of Freedoms sake, protest and all that.

. . .

Course I also dislike the idea of myself committing a number of the actions the rules appear to be banning,

. . .

Ah, paradox.

. . . 

Well, also I might 'need my profile, if a download history option becomes available later.

Whew, no more conflict of values, as Self Interest for me, is a heavy weight, on the scale of decisions.

I always liked the idea, while Debate.org and DART were 'both active,

Of Debate.org being a temporary exile zone or prison, for DART to send problem users to.

I'd prefer more freedom of speech myself,

But one takes what one can get sometimes.

@AdaptableRatman

I would prefer freedom,

Some conspiracies are true,

The Jews being exterminated 'was a 'true conspiracy theory during WW2, of course the 'Nazis didn't want people talking about or against it.

Invasion of Ukraine some might call inflammatory or bannable.

But what is the other option?

Completely cut off communication with another country?

It's hard to change peoples views or your own, in isolation.

It doesn't 'stop the views, they just fester under the skin, inside bubble communities.

. . .

@AdaptableRatman, David, Sir.Lancelot

'IF this site does go down, and someone makes a site with new features,

Maybe some of 3RU7AL's past recommendations should be considered.

Some Users and their content could be banned from appearing to users in Europe for example.

That one is 'near something dangerous.

As long as I don't cross the line into private property, just 'seeing a private property sign, doesn't mean anything more, maybe.

Or beware sharp corners in the road ahead.

Just means to have a sense of awareness of where one is stepping.

Course, I admit some warnings are,

But I maintain others are warnings to be cautious.

One can continue on one's way through a topic, so long as one is careful,

Personally I think one can even get away with advocating for actions held as extreme by most of society, so long as one is careful what and how one says it.

Sounds vague to me.

At minimum a warning, means there is a spectrum,

Possible one can 'stay in the warning spectrum, and never 'get a ban.

A lot of the time I think the 'approach one takes on a topic, is what matters.

Though it can be a gray area, there's still darker and lighter shades of gray.

I think 'most people just don't approach certain topics,

But people who are fervent, trolls, or crazy.

One see's most of the people discussing X topic, and see's them getting banned because of their wild approaches, then think the topic can't be approached at all.

Though admittedly some places ban the topic itself, I'm not fond of such moderation.

Germany banning anything related to the ruling political party in WW2 Germany, Reddit banning Antinatalism.

Not that I support certain policies of the WW2 Ruling Germany Party, but I like freedom, dialogue.

@Possible DART shutdown

Yeah, that does suck.

Hopefully there is still an archive option, that we can recover certain debates and forums.

"There was once a farmer in ancient China who owned a horse. “You are so lucky!” his neighbors told him, “to have a horse to pull the cart for you.” “Maybe,” the farmer replied.

One day he didn’t latch the gate properly and the horse ran away. “Oh no! That is terrible news!” his neighbors cried. “Such bad luck!” “Maybe,” the farmer replied.
A few days later the horse returned, bringing with it six wild horses. “How fantastic! You are so lucky,” his neighbors told him. “Maybe,” the farmer replied.

The following week the farmer’s son was breaking-in one of the wild horses when it threw him to the ground, breaking his leg. “Oh no!” the neighbors cried. “Such bad luck, all over again!” “Maybe,” the farmer replied.

The next day soldiers came and took away all the young men to fight in the army. The farmer’s son was left behind. “You are so lucky!” his neighbors cried. “Maybe,” the farmer replied."

If you mean, can little differences or actions lead to big outcomes,

I'd think yes, and consider such to be Philosophy and Science.

Been a while since I've seen the movie,

If he did fail, what makes this of interest to you?

Haha, almost.

I don't know about 'top 10, but the below were the first 10 to come to mind.

Chocolate

Pizza

Bagel, meat, egg, cheese

Sunkist Orange Soda

White Cheddar Popcorn

Tomato Soup and some bread or cracker

Pasta and Swiss cheese

Black Tea

Chicken Strips

Mmm, food.

Pot pies, Pancakes, Cheeseburgers, Deep Fried Mushrooms, Grilled Cheese Sandwich, Chocolate Milkshakes, Chocolate Dipped Chocolate Ice Cream, Breadsticks, Doughnuts. . . Well, I'm sure I - ooh, Chicken Cordon Bleu, French Fries. . . Well, I'm sure I 'could think of more, but I don't think I- Coke a Cola is pretty good, Root Beer, Chocolate Chip Cookies, String Cheese, Ritz Bits, Ritz, Tuna Sandwich, Oreos, Cheetos, Goldfish Crackers, Spray Cheese Crackers, Maple Doughnuts, Sweet and Sour Pork, Eggs and Toast. . . Well, that's enough reminiscing.

. . . Clam Chowder, Whoppers, Junior Mints, Milk, Orange Juice, Ham, Eggs, Bacon, Pretzels, Sharp Cheddar Cheese, Sharp White Cheddar Cheese, Corn Dogs, Hot Dogs, Combos Pepperoni Pizza, Chocolate Cake, Brownies, Fudge, Chicken Teriyaki and Rice, Steak, Homemade Potato Chips, Homemade Flatbread and Cheese and Meat, Pistachios, 

@Sir.Lancelot

@AdaptableRatman

Would you want the society around you to heed the call of Pleasure (Epicureanism) or 'Duty and Virtue (Stoicism)?

Though I 'might be mischaracterizing the two, I'm not well read on them.

. . . But in great suffering and dire straits,

Might be that virtue is easier to achieve than pleasure,

Might be more 'meaningful to a human,

Might be you want virtue people at your back, than pleasure people.

@ADreamOfLiberty

Apparently Greece and India exchanged 'some ideas, though I couldn't say 'how much.

Sometimes ideas can occur to people separately or similar trees form from similar seeds.

I'm glad it's working out for you.

Oh I agree it 'can be.

But I don't agree it 'is or 'has to be.

Philosophy and Religions often end up Tools and Means to other Ends, than the Ends advocated by many of said Philosophies or Religions.

But I don't regard Stoicism as 'unique in that.

Just something that humans do with Philosophies, Religions, Isms.

There's good and bad people who claim to be Catholic,

There's good and bad people who claim to be Stoics.

. . .

Stiff upper lip sounds rather Stoic,

But I think I'd call it more British than Stoic,

Well, a certain 'type of British person at a specific point in history.

Some Stoicism maybe.

But one sees many variations of Isms, depending on time and place, for better or worse.

But I don't regard Stoicism as 'unique in that.

Fortitude, a willingness to confront pain, agony, danger, uncertainty, intimidation is NOT bad.

I meant to say.

Well, doesn't 'seem bad at a glance to me.

Though some situations, might be better to avoid pain.

Assumably Stoics aren't saying to seek out pain for pains sake,

Or to take pain without purpose or gain, just to look macho.

I don't think Stoicism argues for purposeless enduring of pain and wrongs.

But reflects on a person's freedoms.

Though there may and often be situations, in which it is better to change one's environment.

Take peers as an example, there are toxic peers one is better off avoiding, but one cannot always do that, for example family, school, work.

But if they and the situation cannot be removed, what remains of our freedom, is to change how 'we 'react and 'feel to such.

People do not all 'react the same to situations,

Then obviously of course, there is some difference in the people.

. . .

I think Stoicism can have a recognition of perspective.

I think such perspective is 'common in philosophy.

Consider Mencius and Ox Mountain

or the Bible

I do not think a recognition of causation 'must lead to Nihilism.

. . .

Fortitude, a willingness to confront pain, agony, danger, uncertainty, intimidation is bad.

It seems to me 'good to be strong in life.

There are times when pain must be withstood, if we are to achieve certain ends.

Never really read much of either, though I liked Meditations by Marcus Aurelius,

It being a 'journal and him a thoughtful person, though I don't think I'd call it a Stoicism textbook,

I think it had a lot about analyzing situations for perspective, reframing, self control, encouragement and argument on why he 'ought take some action or another.

I don't think the two really have to be at odds myself.

After all, virtue is often (but not always) sought because of it's advantages.

Healthy Body,

I don't think it's really 'pleasurable to weigh a thousand pounds, not be able to 'enjoy an active life, they'd have a shorter life of lesser and limited pleasures.

Murder,

. . .

Also there 'is a Philosophy section of the Forums,

Rather than the DebateArt.com section of the forums.

I can imagine a functional Cryogenics Company,

But it would need to be a more 'real company as well, Amazon, Microsoft, so on.

As well as 'limited in membership.

The owners are all 'dead, but have AI simulacrums that run the business in their name.

Course, how long can a company last?

. . . Then again, there are many ancient objects, concepts, even 'organizations on Earth, that have lasted thousands of years.

I suppose instead of AI they might use living 'heirs or Custodians, legal binding and geas to force compliant running of the company.

Cryogenics for the common man. . .

The problem I imagine is having 'many people, then more and more,

Even 'just the brains, one ends up with a lot of dead matter and maintenance costs stored up,

Imagine all the space every human head ever born in Earth's history would take up.

Which is the problem with the common people buying into Cryogenics, their 'revenue and value is 'limited.

One requires a renewable resource, such as ownership of a company, land, or country.

Something tied to oneself that makes on too valuable to be thawed out and tossed out.

. . . Maybe one could store the brains and bodies somewhere or way cheap, but cheap means less well preserved perhaps.

Though, one might argue that immortality is 'just around the corner, one doesn't need to be frozen 'forever, just another 100 or 500 years.

Technology and AI are going to speed up and all our tech and unlock the secrets, in some tens or hundreds of years.

Not so confident myself, but a chance at life is a chance at life,

What else is there?

I suppose one could ask an unborn if they want to be born, if a person reproduced by fission. Maybe. Certain 'types of fission.

I suppose one 'might count clones,

But somehow that seems more as having a twin late in life, to me.

. . . Hm, maybe a clone with implanted memories?

I'm saying maybe someone 'can be highly educated, even if they cannot read or write.

'If they understand the concepts and have memorized the information,

Assumably she understood them well enough to pass tests and homework's.

Though I 'do think it would have been better if they had taught her to read and write, assuming she was/is able to learn, and I'd bet she was/is.

But I don't know her,

Some kids act out, or get bad teachers, and end up in and staying in the special needs classes.

I wouldn't say education is 'dead in America,

Though this example of it, does not sound 'ideal.

I didn't watch the video,

Eh, if she was blind, would she not be called educated?

If one understands the content, from a text to speech device, and can pass the tests, surely there is 'some knowledge there.

I'm pretty sure adults can learn new languages.

Though if one has never focused on the written word, 'might be somewhat difficult, but eh, words are 'everywhere, be hard 'not to learn I'd 'think, but maybe I'm too used to words.

Did her school let her use a text to speech in class during tests?

Perhaps they assumed that she had some mental issue with regular reading?

Ant-Natalism,

I'm not sure 'how such a group could achieve it's goals. Barring the Big Red Button of an Apocalypse.

I suppose they could try adoption and acceptance of adult converts,

Try to claim some territory and keep claiming territory until they can enforce their belief worldwide.

Seems 'likely to me though, that they'd be outnumbered by people who want to procreate,

Let's say Anti-Natalists took half the world,

Rest of the world might try pretty hard to prevent any of their own from being adopted or converted.

Even within the Anti-Natalists own territory, again I imagine there'd be a population of people 'currently exempt from Anti-Natalist regulations, that the Anti-Natalists have a population to adopt and convert from,

'But groups have their desires for power, rebellion I'm sure.

So Anti-Natalists might 'have to reproduce I think, to successfully hold territory.

. . .

I suppose if an individual saw a drugged or physically deformed person who cared not about their children, kept 'having children,

Some people might think it is better to kill said individual, than let them create another person in painful existence,

I'd 'imagine but not know, that most Anti-Natalists see new people as more of a roll of the dice or as someone one cannot ask for permission to be born, thus wrong.

Besides, odds can be estimated from genetics and environment sometimes.

. . .

People are 'going to have kids I think,

Even if one killed X many people, way of the world I think is that 'other people produce even more to fill that space.

. . .

Eh, killing other people doesn't seem the 'best way to get Anti-Natalisms various goals or messages across,

But Bad publicity is Publicity, some might say.

. . .

Hm, maybe Anti-Natalisms best bet 'would be the Big Red Button,

Gather like minded individuals and power, attempt to create a Doomsday weapon or Doomsday Political Situation.

Though I'm not sure that'd be enough, unless it 'really wrecked the Earth, life finds a way sometimes,

Only a brief peace of the grave before some other species stands on their own two legs, succeeding humans.

That or perhaps humans survive anyhow.

. . .

More achievable for most Anti-Natalists though,

Might be trying to make the world a nicer place, encouraging better genetics and situations, nature and nurture, to try to improve the odds of fulfilled lives for new people.

If we all lost the internet,I wonder how many creators would still make content in some form or another?

Newspapers, Magazines, Mail, would make comebacks I imagine.

Maybe 'packages of USBs would be delivered to hardened electronic centers, where people might use computers.

Still, even some content such as RTS games, and Shooters, wouldn't 'disappear I'd imagine, a return to the Arcades.

People 'still go to some tournaments in person to compete,

Be a 'lot smaller though, I imagine.

I never considered that solar storms would have less of an effect on the nightside of a planet.

Sounds like a recipe for war and the less knocked out nations to make power plays.

Well, just another argument for having military bases all about the world I suppose, might lose less military power that way.

I wonder if any nations have more 'intentional enclaves about the world, sure various groups do, but I think such tends to be a bit unorganized.

Colonies being a 'bit less common nowadays than the past.

I also enjoy a bit the cultural 'image some nations had during the Cold War, all that prepping of bunkers in backyards and disaster planning.

I think Individualism is great, and prefer it myself to a large degree, pairs well with Hedonism.

Even in a Group, I think Individualism can have a great benefit, take soldiers for example, initiative and freedom to make decisions on the front line, rather than pass the buck and wait for orders.

Workers in a business fixing a problem then and there, rather than applying the official method that might not fix, or waiting for higher ups to do nothing at all.

But humans are also social, community focused.

And though individual disasters may be unlikely to occur, or often localized,They 'can occur, and some like a solar storm, can be effecting everybody.

Communities really 'ought all be collaborative preppers.

And here's my Tribalism complaint, it's similar to that Pixar Incredibles movie, "When everyone is special, nobody will be."

I think that such all encompassing 'valuing of others hacks away at community,Same problem I find with Humanism, though I'm an Atheist myself, it's too vague a term and contrary to working human nature.

Even Democracy or Communism, when the chips came down, various countries were more interested in their own bloods and cultures, than worldwide Democracy or Communism.

Just the way humans are built to thrive in, small group of people in shared commonalities and purpose.

Individualism is a pleasant luxury, one I prefer myself,But only 'possible in abundance. And one that 'lessens a people.

And it's so easy to slack off in abundance, fiddle as the grasshopper did.

Well, I like enjoying life as an individual more myself anyhow, ag well.

Also I might use profanity in surprise or fear, maybe in lament or disappointment.

Once one becomes habituated to using it, just becomes an expression of perhaps 'any emotion at times.

Yeah, but I don't worry about my neighbor stealing my food during a famine,

I don't worry whether my neighbor will have my back if some lion attacks,

I don't worry about the next city over sending a raiding party of warriors to kill me, enslave me, or take all my stuff.

I think the existence of guns in America is fine,

Doesn't take a 'gun to kill someone, plenty of other methods easily available, some 'worse than guns.

@Sir.Lancelot #13

I know very little about Buddhism and Hinduism, and don't have strong opinions on them.

If I was to take an earnest interest in either, I'd probably check out some books from the public library, though people online 'can be an interesting source as well, I think books tend to be deeper and broader.

Sure Wikipedia can give you an 'outline of something, but it's shallow.

@Moozer325 #17

I 'think but don't know that some forms of Buddhism have a belief in the supernatural.

Big religion, been around a while, lots of splinter groups.

I also think that some forms of Buddhism have no belief in the supernatural.

But I 'think such is more common of Westernized Buddhism, as utilized to the purposes and vision of the westerners who interpreted it by their own ideas,

Not that certain forms of Eastern Buddhism 'can't lack the supernatural.

. . .

Some forms of Judaism I'd argue one could see as Atheistic,

Or some versions of whatever one calls the worship of the Greek or Roman gods, given that nobles were sometimes rather cynical about the Gods, yet might have appreciated what they 'represented or were aware that the 'commoners were devout in their belief, so best to be in charge and in practice of said ceremonies and worship.

. . .

Course, as I said, I'm incredibly lacking knowledge of Buddhism,

But at just at a glance online, 'looks to me like 'some people believe in literal Buddhist Hells Heavens Gods Spirits and such,

Though I think many others might see them as metaphors or mortals, states of being.

Big umbrella.

How so?

@#1

I'd figure people are smart because it is advantageous to survival.

Smart people survive, propagate, design clever devices and laws that let their close genetically related tribes survive and prosper.

I'd think some people are driven to be smart out of nature or nurture,

Just hit that genetic number,

But even people without a genetic interest in thinking pursuits, might still pursue intelligence I suppose.

Happen upon intelligence as something admired or a mechanism to stand above others.

. . .

I don't think intelligence is the 'only advantageous trait to survival of a species, lots of winning ways out there in the animal kingdom.

. . .

I 'suppose some people might want to be intelligent because others admire it,

But foremost I'd figure intelligence is a means to ends,

Being intelligent opens a lot of doors to our wants. Make good decisions, avoid bad ones.

And people often value their habits. Intelligence can be a habit.

. . .

I suppose displays of intelligence 'can be wasteful,

Like E-Sports video game competitions,

Not sure I'd put such people at the 'top of the reproduction ladder,

And really I watch 'games more than the people.

. . . Various sports like football, don't really serve a purpose in themselves, but one wouldn't say the primary purpose of the human bodies physical capabilities is to woo mates?

. . .

I think human socializing 'is problem solving.

'Especially for earlier humans in less safe societies.

Learning signs and rules, recognizing what to do, how much.

Knowing who to trust, who to bribe,

Meeting strangers, sizing them up, knowing when to throw in with others.

Recognizing who is going to take advantage of you or treat you fair.

@#1

Heh, I've thought of that before,

Even unintentionally such an occurrence 'could happen,

If a former president served one of the various offices in the line of ascension, and the people all above them ended up dying,

Maybe a former President simply couldn't serve in on e of the line of succession offices?

But I assume, but don't know that the former 2 term president would simply be passed over in the ascension choosing.

. . .

I don't 'think it's all that common for former Presidents to serve political offices after being President.

. . .

Would Trump 'accept being number two to Vance?

@zedvictor4

I agree that whether it is intelligent or not, humans often develop and imbed in their societies various unhealthy technology.

Like lead pipes, or plastic maybe.

Some actions are hard to take back, like Chernobyl.

@NobodyInParticular

I wonder who has the most credits on DART.

@#1491

So long as the AI are not people, yes.

I view AI as 'currently still being very much simple tools.

Though I think they 'could be more in the future.

Humans have so much information encoded in their genes, and have developed into variable creatures, more variable than some organisms that just eat and sit in the sun.

Though food and sun is nice. And even such organisms whether chicken or plants, are still rather variable and doing 'somethings.

And I suppose AI can be very 'good at certain tasks, better than many humans.

. . .

Some fighting video games have AI editors, where you can edit or randomize how Custom Fighters fight.

Some people seem to like gambling toys such as Card Game Packs, Gacha game, Lootboxes,

Well, 'some people, lot of it is probably just corporate greed.

But I imagine there'll be a business someday for randomized one of a kind unique AI products.

Contrast 10 shades of Orange with 10 shades of Blue,

One will see the differences between Orange and Blue,

Contrast 10 shades of Orange amongst themselves, or 10 shades of Blue amongst themselves,

And one see's the differences in Oranges, the differences in Blues.

I've never been much impressed by an argument I've heard now and then, that if everyone is blended homogeneous, strife will disappear.

Though I suppose it 'might be lessened.

But I think humans are quick to pick up on differences,

While someone who grew up among Xs, might think all Y's look alike, but this is because they grey up among Xs,

The Y's don't think they look alike, though they might think the X's look alike,

But this is because each group grew up and learned to identify the small differences.

I suppose if human features 'changed frequently, that might be an option, like with those skin genes that can changes a persons skin color,

But no, I think there would still be differences, frequency of change, depth, amount, how they walk, talk,

The homogeneous argument is to change everything that even 'defines one.

It's becomes a parody 'rejection of individuality.

Though 'again, I think uniformity 'can have a 'degree of effect.

Perhaps lessen gut 'depth of ingroup and outgroup reactions,

But even if an individual were cloned, and all the clones similarly trained,

Not being a 'single individual, I think differences would be noted and created, strifed upon.

And even an individual alone, perhaps strifes upon themself.

. . . That or 'creates Wilson's to strife with.

@#6

From that movie I'd probably pick Moses yeah, though Frollo has the strength of standing as a more original creation maybe.

Though Frollo 'was in the book, Disney changed his character a fair bit, making Disney him, rather original to Disney.

Also very different characters, the people who like Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader better, are prizing different qualities in their judgements.

I've never tried a white noise machine before,

I've heard some people use white noise machines for meditation.

Though I've also heard some models can be too loud and ear damaging if left on too long.

I find some music nice to fall asleep to,

So long as it turns off before my alarm goes off, though if one doesn't have a worry about when to wake up, not a problem I guess.

Some people like music without lyrics that they can study to, music setting them at ease in a groove, while lyrics might pull away too much of their brain I suppose.

Had a clock once that would tick tick tick, didn't enjoy 'that when trying to sleep.

I dislike frog, crickets, and cicada noises,

But 'maybe a 'soft water sound could be nice.

I wonder if anyone has elected a chatbot as a government official before?

Perhaps a government official who pledges to only do whatever the chatbot tells him to do?

I never did visit Hawaii, no.

After training, I ended up on land on the east coast for the rest of the time I was in.

Really got me to love that line in Stairway to Heaven "There's a feeling I get when I look to the west",

Felt good to get back to Oregon.

I'd agree on tradition,

I also think people also like being willful and free at times. Make their own choices, autonomy, self government and all that.

Backseat drivers can be a pain, whether driving, gaming, or running one's country.

Besides, one doesn't always 'know the situation will get better, and a person who finds it acceptable to force their ways, comes off a bit untrustworthy.

. . .

I don't know much about Hawaii's Monarchy and divisions of power.

Some countries seem fairly happy with monarchs, even in the modern era.

The British still have a monarchy after all.

And some groups might choose monarchy as a way of attempting to unite their people against outgroup encroachment, like the Māori King movement - Wikipedia.

. . .

I wonder if there 'would still be human sacrifice in the Aztec area, had it been left alone,

Human sacrifice has been in the history of. . . About 'everywhere I 'think, maybe, mostly, during certain time periods.

Course I suppose societies don't 'have to all evolve the same ways,

May be be a lot of societies 'real strange to us, if they all evolved in isolation into the space age.

I've never really thought beyond self soothing as a reason for people to eat when depressed,

But after thinking on it, depressed people are sometimes partially depressed by bad nutrition, so at times a desire to eat could also be there as a way for the body to try to get certain vitamins that the individual might be low on.

Though if a person just eats junk food and not enough of the needed nutrition, I imagine the individual is more likely to stay depressed.

Course one 'can be happy even with bad nutrition, or unhappy even with good nutrition.

Like fi're, hell 'fi're, this fi're in my skin.

Catchy song.

Might have been better off going with animated religious characters than Disney, I can't 'think of all that many explicitly religious Disney characters.

I think Kekata, the long haired old guy in Pocahontas, is a shaman. Has some good lines, but I'd put Friar Tuck above him, Friar Tuck just had a lot of energy and a fight scene.

I agree with you ranking Frollo number 1 though, has a lot of screen time, lot of character and impact, has a good song, has a sword swinging scene.

@7000series

Possession is 9/10th of the law as they say.

I think war and force to be immoral, generally speaking. 'Even if current living conditions end up better, doesn't mean people wish to accept such.

I imagine I could turn my life choices over to various people, and I might end up with more money, more health. . . But bah to that I say, I want to live my life.

Course 'now Hawaii is populated by many non original inhabitants, and the original inhabitants have grown up used to the situation.

If I (Of this instant) was in a similar situation as Hawaii was back then, I wouldn't want to forcefully annex another country.

Take Greenland or Canada for instance.

. . . Though I admit pragmatism has a sense of logic and value to it.

@Sidewalker

The annexation of Hawaii is unpopular with me, though now I consider it too late.

Same as I don't really care for how America took the West and Texas, but too late now.

I'm neutral about Hawaii being a state, with some leaning towards tradition, it's been a state a while, just leave it a state,

Though I suppose it 'is very small.

I think presidents, including Biden and Trump sign 'too 'many documents, to be able to remember each individual case.