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@Speedrace
I just find it incredibly annoying when people act as if players don't have lives outside of this game. You're tunneling him and picking up random scraps of behavior to use against him for no reason
This is a complete misrepresentation and an attempt to undermine well thought out and fully articulated analysis. I have fully read every post he has made. He fluff posted for the first 3-4 pages. He then played narrator, making no effort to scum hunt, either providing general info or echoing statements and sentiments from other people. With any slightly novel comments, he immediately backed down and 180'd when challenged even slightly. These are all scum tells on their own and are used as tactics to stay under the radar as scum. He has used them all in one game. He has said nothing to explain this behavior, especially is 180. His response was a half-assed argument that it was not a 180, which is false. When I brought a real challenge to affiliation, he returned, made one post, then disappeared. Another scum tactic used when you hope other conversations about other viable topics will take precedent over the scum read on you if you just "remove yourself" from the conversation long enough.
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@Speedrace
Other people were using she/her to talk about That1. I have no independent basis for using them, and hope I did not offend if I was wrong to do so.
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@ILikePie5
I could see either water or speed as scum, but not both. I do not think there is enough information to justify a lynch. The inno comment was not scummy. It just sounded stupid. I think the way Drafter reacted to the comment was more scummy than the comment itself. That said, I have no town read on him and he is in my FOS pile.
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@drafterman
what is your basis for wanting a claim from water? Are you asking for a full claim?
What are your full reads before this DP ends?
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@Speedrace
You say to the doctor and debater who has a wife at 9pm :|
Weird that you feel the need to explain his behavior for him. It is a scum move to make a quick response or just avoid the heat entirely and wait in the wings for a subject change or for the heat to die down. I too have a big kid job and a wife, but the same scum tactics apply.
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@Lunatic
She said there was potential for you to be jester, but in the same post said it was unlikely. Waterphoenix actually bought into the theory that you were jester more than she did.
That noncommital way of planting a seed of TP is exactly what I would expect scum to do, for various motivations. That said, I am satisfied at this point with her explanation that she is very wary of this mechanic since it won in one of her first games and recently. Also, she's a noob so not sure she is capable of that level of strategyl. Any discussion I have had on the topic was really directed at any argument that it was scummy for Bullish to point this out as a potential scum tell, especially since Bullish has historically been pretty "bullish" in his scum hunting as town in games I played with him.
The OP definitely doesn't imply theme analysis is foolhardy, it specifically says " I also gave scum options of fake character + role claims in this game, but you are welcome to focus on theme analysis if you wish". Danielle is a pretty big advocate of mods giving fake claims. Also not sure this means that we can't use any theme analysis, because in a 12 player game there is probably either 3 mafia, or 2 and 1 third bases on common balance practices for 12 player games.
I am generally skeptical of theme analysis in forum games. It is very hard to get right. There is a lot of mod psych., plus there are so many variations of what could be scum v. town. In a game where we know that there are fake claims, I find it even less useful and more likely to be a waist of time. Danielle has historically been opposed to characters being capable of breaking the game, so it's more likely in my mind that scum either all have fake character claims or have enough of them to fake claim for whichever scum was unlucky enough to not get one.
The reason I was suspicious of that1 is that it looked like she was setting herself up for a soft claim from a nightmare before christmas, and I think it's obvious at this point based on my PFP that I am Jack Skellington. I was wondering if maybe she didn't pick up on that when she said that. What do you think of her nightmare before christmas post? Am I looking too much into that?
I think this was just a silly comment. I did not read it as a scum slip. I think it is worth cataloging along with her weird mime argument, but to me it is not inherently scummy. I need other behavior and play from her still. Nightmare before christmas is not an obvious christmas reference to me, but I can see it being for others and her just thinking that it would be a scummy xmas reference worth joking about. Also, I totally missed your avatar thing. Weird character if you're townie. Interesting, you're one of my biggest town reads so I am not sure what to make of this. I never saw the movie so, I am not sure if the character is evil/bad, I just assume he is.
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@ILikePie5
So there is nothing inherently town about this behavior from white, seems to be what you are conceding.
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@WaterPhoenix
I am not voting Bullish. He has done nothing scummy to warrant lynch yet.
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@ILikePie5
Normally I agree but you have to look at this specific case. That1 is a noob. Plus why talk about you being a TP when you’re going to be lynched anyways. There’s no use for her to “mislynch” you cause you’re going to be lynched eventually anyways.
The specific mechanic That1 was claiming was a mechanic that would convince people not to lynch me. Regardless, I do not think this warrants much further discussion. I do not think That1 is a priority. nonetheless, there should be clarity in future DPs as to what she specifically was baselessly alleging, which was a mechanic that would warrant keeping me - an anti-town role- in the game.
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@That1User
I am literally not advocating my own lynch right now, though acknowledging that we will unfortunately have to lynch me sooner than later.
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@That1User
I see why you see it as nonsense though since you're unfamiliar with it
I don't see it as nonsense because of ignorance. I see it as nonsense because of knowledge, the knowledge that I am town hated.
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@That1User
You really want him out lmao
Mostly I am trying to lay all my thoughts out for future analysis should I die early.
Secondarily, I am rarely confident in my reads. When I am, I am most often correct. Unfortunately, the ability to read people is only one skill necessary in this game. The ability to convince people of your reads is equally important and a skill I seemingly have not mastered.
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@That1User
I am not at all going hard against you. You seem defensive. I legitimized Bullish's statement and suspicion of your TP statement. I really only turned on you as potentially scummy when you said the mime nonsense, which seemed like a big brain brilliant scum move (in the context of me convincingly reading White as scum)
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@That1User
Why do you FOS Drafter?
It's not enough to vote, but Drafter's posts have felt fluffy and forced. His primary contribution was discussing his theories on how my role should function. I also especially did not like the face palm comment about water's statement regarding Inno Child. Also, his theorization on the functionality of hated seemed to suggest scum hated would somehow be reason not to lynch or failed to factor in how if there is reason to think I am scum hated he should very much want me lynched. Mostly I want more contribution from him to better sort him and do not want him to fly under the radar, as he is seemingly doing.
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It is notable that White has disappeared likely hoping any heat on him will die down. He dropped one quick rebuttal and is now probably sitting back and waiting until it's safer for him to come back in.
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@Lunatic
I agree that That1 is suspicious, but also keep in mind that scum has fake claims. They could all have them or some. Unclear from the OP how many or in what combination, but the OP does imply that theme analysis would be foolhardy.
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Reiterating my reads since I have to die early. For what they are worth postmortem:
TOWN
- oromagi
LEANING TOWN
- Luna
NULL
- Supa
- Pie
- Bullish
FOS
- whiteflame
- that1user
- WaterPhoenix / Speedrace
- drafterman
I have moved Bullish to Null since I feel more confident in my White read and it is incredibly unlikely they are both scum.
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@Lunatic
In one of the like 4 games she played in, we lost to two third parties, so there is basis for her to be weary of third parties.
This is useful knowledge.
as opposed to using SOP style logic that faultily suggests town rarely have reason to suspect someone of being third party.
I was not saying that town should not be suspicious of TP, I was saying we should be weary of and look close at someone who randomly raises baseless game mechanic concerns, as same is often used as a tactic to cause confusion and/or create random suspicion on townies. I do not know if Bullish's thoughts were in line with mine, but I too was suspect of That1 when they randomly brought this up, especially having contributed almost nothing outside of this random comment in the game at that point and for awhile after.
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@That1User
Honestly, if you are scum and that is what you were going for, hats off and you should get some sort of prize because it would be like super big brain and ballsy.
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That1, as scum, claiming I am TP with White would really be a brilliant move. Don't know enough about That1 to know if they are experienced enough to think of that . But it would prevent me (a townie with a negative town utility) from being killed early enough to prevent the harm from my game mechanic and simultaneously save your scum buddy. If you are scum, I am impressed.
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@That1User
I am HATED so obviously I am discounting this ridiculous mechanic. No idea what a mime is, but I am not TP. Also, are you saying you now not only are saying there's one TP, but there are two?
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@Lunatic
70% was generous. It's def more than that. Not just using TP. They's claim, oh but we should be cautious because it could be X mechanic. In nearly every live mafia game I played Mike, Max, Bullish or someone else as scum conjured up some random theory for why a townie's claim should be suspect. They would plant the seed early, subtly, just incase it was narrowed down and they needed a lynch of said person later and needed to justify it. They'd then generally drop it, then only revive it at the end and be like "OH. EM. GEE., so and so is X, you got us dude"
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@Lunatic
Your basis for suspecting Bullish is silly. Do you know how many games i have been in where scum said, in response to a valid role claim of an otherwise non suspicious townie, "oh but could be X twist to the role, or could be TP, or could be totally random game mechanic," just to undermine the townread in hopes of a mislynch. So someone randomly without basis saying could be TP is something that should be looked at suspiciously. You and Bullish are just two big personalities, whom by your nature feel the need to define yourselves as in opposition to the other. So you're just doing scum a favor (ignoring scummy behavior) and cluttering the DP with your battle while distracting from legitimate leads. I am rarely confident in my reads, I am confident in this one, and I am going to continue to put all my cards out with my reads, since I will be killed early and you will have my reads as a townie as my only contribution after my death.
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I agree with Bullish that bringing up TP's can be a scum tactic. Essentially, bringing up any baseless game mechanic is a scum strategy for distracting the town and throwing suspicion on a townie that otherwise appears town (because they are genuinely hunting scum). I cannot believe we are spending this much time on this comment, which is commenting on a scum tactic I have seen used in something like 70% or more of games I have played.
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@whiteflame
I really don't get this. What part of my behavior is unclear? In no previous game have I ever sought to lynch someone in DP1. That was a given in this game as well.
I said your behavior IS clear, not that it isn't. It is clearly scummy.
The only thing I wanted out of this DP was information. I pushed for it and got it, so I felt no need to continue putting on pressure and try to get a lynch off. It was never my aim to pursue a lynch, and as you said and I agreed, I don't want to reveal so many roles that we end up giving mafia way too much information to work with. If you somehow see that as inconsistent, then you're welcome to rally others around the cause
I have cited the inconsistencies and how you are behaviorally playing as someone scared to fall on anyone's radar, even when you fall on it non-threateningly
and push for me to claim.
Scum has come unknown amount of fake character and role claims, so this would not help me sort your affiliation. Behavior seems to be the best way in this game. And as articulated, your behavior is of an overly introspective scum
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@Lunatic
@Bullish
You both need to focus. It is in fact possible that all three of them are scum. Do not clutter the DP with a flamewar. You're both big brain and if you're both town, then we are going to win this game. I think the scummiest player behaviorally is White and his lynch gives us info on Bullish's affiliation. Let's lynch white.
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@Bullish
That is not true. The objective of the game is to catch scum. The objective of scum is to mislynch and avoid being caught.
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@Bullish
I am focused on White. I will either lynch him or VTNL. I think either speed or water is scum; I do not have a town read on speed yet.
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@That1User
Do you think the inverse is true, if Bullish is scum then White is town?
Good question. I think no. The reasoning is not applicable in reverse. The interactions between Bullish and White were initiated almost entirely by Bullish.
What are your reads? I think you've posted 3 times.
What are your reads? I think you've posted 3 times.
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@Lunatic
Right now White is my biggest scum read. I went back and reread his posts and he comes across like someone who is self-reflecting and second guessing how they appear from the outside. The two posts I highlighted above were posted within 40 minutes of each other and couldn't be more incongruous. He seems like he is trying very hard to not fall on anyone's radar. I don't like it.
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I have reason to suspect everyone, so it was a matter of whoever was getting pushed because, as I learned the hard way in a couple of the previous games, playing passively gets us nowhere and trying to push a lynch that no one's going to join doesn't accomplish anything. That being said, Speed would usually be my choice as well. Too much experience with him as scum.
I'm in perfect agreement. I think we have enough information, and that seeking more at this stage would be overzealous and could provide too much information to mafia. To some extent, I understand the efforts to push other people to act and respond to issues perceived in their analysis, but I would not seek another character or role claim, and thus,
What's your deal. First you want Supa's claim, and say you were willing to jump on any bandwagon to get more claims (though lots of claims were already out for scum to see). your defense of this tactic is "not playing passively?" Then when I push back on you a little more with that strategy you complete 180, are in "perfect agreement" and VTNL, the epitome of passivity.
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@Lunatic
I struggle with bullish because in south park mafia i remember him leading this wild goose chase of a lyn h on drafter based on a behavior from a game of his from years ago on DDO. Bullish was extremely cocky and confident leading that lynch. Similarly in live mafia he tends to get on some lynch trains with pretty insubstantial logic, and he tends to tunnel it and not listen to reason.He will be hard to read on this one for sure due to bad logic, however the perception of being an open minded investigator here doesn't follow his town meta in live mafia of sticking to one thing and tunneling it so I am actually pretty sus of bullish here.
I think one of Whiteflam or Bullish is likely scum, but not both. White because he's contributing regularly in a non-contributory way. It feels forced, like he's playing narrator without actually hunting scum. He echos obvious observations or statements and anything remotely novel he says he seems willing to backdown from immediately as almost a gut reaction to realizing he's drawn attention to himself. I have never played with White before, so this is based on no prior information. Conversely, if White is town, I think Bullish is scum because he jumped on White so fast and almost came across like he saw White as an easy target.
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My reads so far:
TOWN
- oromagi
LEANING TOWN
- Luna
NULL
- Supa
- Pie
FOS
- whiteflame / bullish
- WaterPhoenix / Speedrace
- drafterman
- that1user
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@Lunatic
Upon double checking, it seems you claimed it in your second post. I was under the impression for some reason it was 3 or 4 posts in, so I will drop that particular point.
cool.
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I cannot express how annoying I find it that this platform does not auto-quote people when you reply to their posts.
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@drafterman
How is your analysis of hated impacted with a VTNL? That delays MYLO and the effect of of me being hated townie on the game dynamics it seems. I'm a fan of VTNLs DP where no clear target arises.
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@whiteflame
Okay, but wouldn't you agree that having outed 2 character claims and 2 role claims between three separate players is enough information to have outed DP1 and that more info only helps scum. Assuming all three players we have info on are town, which I know two are we have given scum a lot to work with. So any pressure to claim at this point needs to be target to those we actually suspect to be scum.
Where do you stand on VTNL at this point?
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So I def missed the town confirm on Oromagi. Gotta read the "fine" print I suppose this explains Luna's line of inquiry and wanting to be certain of the OP before just accepting the town confirmed role.
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@WaterPhoenix
No I will not character claim. And you should not out your theory. On the chance it is correct it only helps scum.
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@whiteflame
why would you want a third claim? Unless you have reason to suspect Supa, giving more info to scum is not helpful. Speed would be my only exception in this regard. ;-)
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@drafterman
I think it's pretty clear what the Hated character would be. And, as life often imitates art, there is another discussion about whether we should let this Hated character live and play in our reindeer games.As I said last game: We do not need to lynch the Hated.All Hated Town does is make MYLO/LYLO happen one phase earlier than otherwise.But, guess what, when you mislynch a townie you're making MYLO/LYLO happen one phase earlier than otherwise.So lynching the Hated or letting it live is mechanically the same.That said, role =/= affiliation and this could be Hated scum, but but that decisions turns on reads and/or reports.
Never heard Hated analyzed this way. This is interesting. But I guess there is some utility or null utility on keeping hated then. Though the counter would be taking the power on how the mechanic impacts the game and when away from scum. That if there is concern I am scum hated, then my lynch has all town utility?
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@Vader
@Speedrace
I don't have any initial reads or scum reads so far. Idk if Speed was joking with his character claim or what not, but if that is his character, I have a slight FoS if everyone's role is related to Xmas.I did not think that was a character claim. Speed should def clarify though
I did not think his comment was an actual claim. Speed should clarify.
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@Vader
Did I miss something? Why is OroMagi town confirmed?
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@That1User
I am not jester. But I always anticipate twists in Danielle's games. No reason this game would be different.
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@MisterChris
We should probably lynch me by next DP the latest. In addition to not risking being too close to MYLO, its unhelpful to waist portions of multiple DPs discussing my role and when is the best time to lynch me. It takes time and focus from sorting people.
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