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I think wylted should have warned us this was gonna be one of those wierd mechanic games prior to signing up.
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Someone is lying then. Chris can't have been shot 7 times only 6 since Chris shot pie and disc claims he didn't shoot.
Probably Chris lying here though I don't really see the point if he's really 3rd party.
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@Earth
@Vader
@MisterChris
@Polyglot
just waiting on you four.
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unvote.
We need to hear from everyone who they shot and if they were shot before chris tries quick hammering himself.
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@ILikePie5
I pretty much did lol. I led the lynch based on his reactions that paralleled the other game.
You did not lead the lynch. Nice try. Next. I mean if you are scum here I imagine you try to sell this point really hard, which just makes you look scummier though.
Chris confessed that he’s scum meaning I was right. The only scenario where I’m scum is if me and Chris are both scum - something which you practically ruled out if I remember correctly
If there's two third parties instead of 2 mafia then that logic is ruled out.
Again, all of this irrelevant. The only scenario where im scum is if me and Chris are both scum - which you ruled out yourself.
Or there is 2 third parties :)
It was either Chris or his buddy. Zero risk in not shooting someone else cause literally everyone was shooting Chris. Who practically led the lynch on him. Me. You can say Poly started it over the 4x Vig thing, but that’s not what got Chris lynched. It was the reactions I found.
Not a single person referenced your reaction post as a reason for voting him. What evidence do you have that can substantiate it? If anything supas scum read on him stemmed from me calling out chris for his reaction, as supa referenced that at one point.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
At the end of the phase he claimed he was 10x deathproof,I... must have missed that part.
Hmm... This may be a good thing actually. I won't elaborate until everyone has posted.
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His last two opponents (stricklands) didnt seem very great from what I saw so I figured he would get the unexpected with Uriah. But idk what Uriah's game plan was there, barely any kicks were thrown (which is wierd because the few he did throw did damage) and he kept walking right into Sean's jab. He needed to keep the distance and snipe him out, not trade with him in a pure boxing match like that. Regardless I am very impressed with Strickland, he is a very good defensive fighter and I didn't think he would look that good going into the 4th and 5th rounds. I definitely underestimated him.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I did catch up on DP 1, though not until after it was closed. I saw that either you or pie posted a list saying that over 3 people promised to shoot chris so I waived, I figured if he lived then we would know that someone in that list was lying. Turns out he did survive, so some sort of silly business did in fact go down. I think the next logical step would be for everyone to reveal their night actions from last night and if they are different than what they had promised then they should explain why. If everyone claims that they did indeed shoot chris then that lets us know that someone is lying (even if that someone is chris).
Why would you waive? At the end of the phase he claimed he was 10x deathproof, which means even if we all hit him he would survive... Also even if the kill was overkill it would have been the same thing as a waive. There was no reason not to shoot him...
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What are your current thoughts on the game? I am assuming you caught up on day phase 1 by now...
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Scum pool:
Pie
Chris
Suspicious but mostly null:
Disc
Whiteflame
Town if Chris flips mafia, null if actually 3rd party:
Supadudz
poly
Just plain null:
Earth
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Need everyone to fes up to their shots and if they were shot.
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I will say I am kind of suspicious that pie was shot. I don't see the reason why. Inb4 "PiE lEd ThE lYnCh" Bullsh1t he did. He doubled down on a lynch that was inevitably going to happen and he was one of those that was the second most scum read that day phase. He only amped up his read on chris AFTER being severely FOS'ed by me for playing inactive / disinterested. He contradicted himself multiple times when responding to "why he was dis-interested" because he thought this was essentially an "all vanilla game" even though he basically ceded that by trying to make a plan that uses the vig roles as a pseudo investigation.
Unless someone actually claims to have shot pie here I will be pretty suspicious of him as a target here. That or the third party is pretty noob.
Also if chris doesn't end up flipping mafia I won't buy a mafia element in this game at all. If he is mafia, then I think poly is pretty much confirmed town pool in my eyes. I'll feel good about supa too since he called out the mechanics of the town role before it was publicly discussed when I outed him for the slip, but this relies on chris being truthful about being 10x which would prove undeniably that scum didn't know what town was at that time. We really need chris's flip to figure that out.
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Chances are there is 2 third parties with the 10x deathproof thing that chris was talking about. It should be obvious here but I think we shouldn't try to make any deals with him and just kill him outright. In an 8 player game for balance it doesnt make much sense for their to be a mafia and a third party element, so likely once we killed the third parties we win.
Assuming 6 townies shot chris last night, plus the lynch, and todays lynch, then we should only need two more vigilantes on him tonight. And whoever we decide to lynch today we can have everyone else vig.
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If anyone wants to fess up to shooting pie, now's the time.
I shot Chrissy poo.
vtl chris
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Pie you are talking in circles and ignoring my argument to be repetitive. You didn't present any new evidence that suggests why your plan will be successful and have admitted that without knowledge of mafia roles it's relatively useless at this juncture in regards to proving who scum is. The extra layer is unnecessary and just causes wifom. Let's just do this normally and use night kill analysis as added pressure next day phase.
On my phone now so I can't do line by line with you.
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Promised Vig kill tonight
Pie -Vigging Chris
Whiteflame - Virginia Chris
Disc-
Earth - Vigging Chris
Mr. chris- probably dead so it doesn't matter
Poly - Vigging Chris
Supa- Vigging Chris or pie
Lunatic- Vigging Chris
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I'm going to a movie won't be on for the end of the phase.
Unvote vtl Chris
I'll shoot Chris tonight.
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@ILikePie5
Ok, but again, the plan doesn’t work if scum aren’t just like us. I don’t know why you brought it up
Why doesn't it work? It's not meant to be a solve all like yours is trying to be.
Fuckery can always happen lol. It’s mafia. But it’s astronomically better that your plan imo.
Not if we don't know how the mafia roles work.
I don’t think it’s vague at all. It’s Chris’s scum play in action.
I mean I can understand why you wouldn't want to be convinced your actions are scummy or manipulative here. So I guess there is no point in discussing this point of logic with you if your answer is "its just obvious" lol
I added it separately after Supa said I wasn’t doing anything when I was lol. The entire time I was talking about the reaction to pressure from the parallel to the town is screwed part.
The "town is screwed" part was not mentioned by you when you voted initially.
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@ILikePie5
The added layer of complexity while we don't know how the mafia's roles function is the problem with the plan. I specifically don't like this part: The other 3, Luna, WF, and Disc (as well as Chris if he’s actually town) waive tonight. If Chris doesn’t die, we know he’s scum and one of Me, Supa, Poly, and WF are confirmed scum. If there are 5 shots in the night then we know there’s scum in Luna, WF, and Disc
If you are mafia here and have inside information of what roles scum have and know you can commit some kind of fuckery here to implicate others based on this information then town will be set up for failure. We can execute stuff like this later in the game potentially with a mafia flip.
For now I think we should at least make sure people are communicating their intentions or are ready to defend them next day phase. Again I am not looking for this to break the game, because like you pointed out there is too much potential for mafia fuckery, I just want to use it as a tool to help scum hunt.
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@ILikePie5
I agree but we are assuming this with any plan. At least I have a plan. What’s yours?
I came up with the "communicate your night kill" plan you just modified it.
Then what plan are you suggesting lol. Why should everyone say who they’re gonna target if you believe we’re gonna get fucked with either way - at which point only thing we have is behavior just like a vanilla game lol.
This was YOUR point bro I was bringing up the fact that I think it's weird you were literally just arguing that fuckery can happen yet make a plan that allows for the same fuckery. You are the naysayer here not me lol
This doesn’t make any sense to me. I could care less about whether he said 4x Vig or 4x Deathproof at this point. I’m more scum reading him based on the reaction to pressure.
You changed it mid-dayphase after I brought up the reaction to pressure and was FOSing you for not putting on your A game. You initially dropped the vote and explained very little behind it, making a vague parrallel between this game of his and another one. You just started adding all this reaction stuff to your chris read lol.
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@ILikePie5
Alright just got home from work. First of all, the line by line responses you made to me about the game being "all vanillas" are self refuted since your plan highlights the same general principle I am talking about with using the vig mechanics utility as a pseudo investigative means to solve the game.
Second, the last line of all this pretty important: ***This is Ofc assuming Mafia are also all 4x Deathproofs and each can perform the “NK”
We have no clue how the mafia mechanics work yet so complex plans like this have too many unknown variables. Furthermore if you (or anyone else who suspects misterchris scum slipped) were to operate with this plan, you are basically admitting that the scum read on chris that started with the 4x vig thing was bogus, and if anything makes him look town.
The fact that you brought up this plan brings up even more questions. Like why were you arguing this point with me: "It doesn’t though. Mafia can shoot their own team in hopes of getting town cred"
Because if Chris is scum and his partner will look bad for not participating in the vigging, the bussing still will "make them look good" in so far as we believe it should (which we shouldn't).
The idea is inventive enough, but adds a layer of unnecessary complexity. We should be prepared for mafia fuckery and consider it normally. The way people vig will be a factor in scum hunting, but it won't be the sole factor.
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Promised Vig kill tonight
Pie -Vigging Chris
Whiteflame
Disc
Earth- Vigging Chris
Mr. chris
Poly
Supa
Lunatic- Vigging Pie or chris, will decide before time expires
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According to wylted's earlier comment we have roughly 4 hours left in the phase.
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@Earth
@whiteflame
@Discipulus_Didicit
@MisterChris
@Polyglot
@everyone please make it known who your vig target tonight is before the end of the phase so I can update this list.
Promised Vig kill tonight
Pie -Vigging Chris
Whiteflame
Disc
Earth
Mr. chris
Poly
Supa
Lunatic- Vigging Pie or chris, will decide before time expires
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@ILikePie5
In regards to "Chris's reactions to pressure is scummy", I started that whole thing, so not going to dis-agree with you there. Also I feel like you are morphing your original argument a bit towards his defense when originally you dropped your vote on him it was solely for the tracker "parralel". It seems like you are doing this in a clever manipulative sort of way to double down on chris as well as to make it look like you were putting more effort into the game then you actually were at the time, as a post-justification. You didn't mention the stuff about chris's reaction to pressure until just now, after I have made that a pretty big point with him...
Idk I guess I am just noticing a difference between your town play here and in the last game, and you seem generally less than enthusiastic.Everyone is the same role at least base don’t what everyone has said. It’s pretty much just a vanilla game
Everyone having the same role doesn't mean it's a vanilla game though. This basically gives you the power to decide a lynch at night as well, theres a lot more choice and responsibility with this concept. If you think about it, since wylted is literally going to be telling us when death proofs are used, we can force all players to out there vig targets each day as a new form of building suspicions. We can sus out why someone vigged so and so, and if we don't buy there reasons its something to FOS them for. And we can pretty much determine the mafia night kill targets by forcing this information out, which gives us town confirmation. I think the longer the game goes on, you will see how OP this set up actually is for town if we use the information correctly.
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I will say I don't think pie and chris are on the same team here by interactions. Could be wrong about that but I feel pretty confident. So if I go with one over the other I will have to admit the other is more likely town.
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@ILikePie5
I’m confused. You don’t think I’m scum hunting? I literally have no words lol. Everything about Chris screams scum. Read that game - I think you nodded it. The reactions and everything are the same
I read what you referenced earlier, I didn't find it crazy convincing if you argument is that he was asking for someone to cop him knowing he could lawyer it, to this game where he is asking to be tracked. The large difference is whether I buy chris being that blatantly lazy as scum to not have read that everyone was claiming the same thing, so him asking to be tracked almost makes it look more innocent (in that I kind of agree with disci, though I don't give it a full pass since it could have been a genuine scum slip). If were looking at chris as a scum target here I am more interested in his reactions which I still think air on the side of scummy.
My point in regards to you being scummy is just the general lack of effort. You made that one point on chris and kind of have been absent. Then the prior bandwagon on supa doesn't help. Idk I guess I am just noticing a difference between your town play here and in the last game, and you seem generally less than enthusiastic. Even with your chris read, it doesn't really seem like you are pushing it hard, or trying to get inactive town on to vote, etc. These are things I have come to expect from town pie. Just a general interest in moving things forward. You know that pie impatience, wanting to get the ball rolling. Where is that?
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@MisterChris
I probably wont be able to repsond to your response, long story short we gotta find a target, I would use your time looking for who were gonna lynch
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Kinda feeling sus of whiteflame now too based on his activity. Probably not fair given this is a shorter phase limit game, but after having watched him skate by as mafia I am a little wary. And that's largely how he won was no one pressured him in TUF Villains either. Behaviorally hasn't done much to make me specifically suspect him though.
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We have roughly 6 hours left in the phase based on what wylted said earlier.
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Remember we all need to state our intentions with the vig kill and get ready to explain what and why we did or didn't with the vig kills next day phase. We should actually be able to get a lot of information out of the vig kills and can POE scum by figuring out who targeted who, since apparently we get notified of how many death proofs we have left each night. We can use the vig's as pseudo investigations.
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vtl pie.
Right now it's him or Chris, and I feel pie is scummier atm based on his less than enthusiastic approach to the game, and general low effort. Doesn't seem interested in solving who scum is. I'll probably be using my vig on him tonight,
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@MisterChris
The thing I was surprised about isn't that TOWN reacted to my #81 post. That's to be expected. What surprised me is that TOWN continued to harp on the same arguments that I addressed literally a few posts later in #88 until I came back just a few hours ago (I mean, what I've been saying today to defend myself is basically what I was saying last night). It frustrated me that what I said to defend myself was more or less ignored while TOWN was being led into a mislynch. I guess that's the reason you can sense some defensiveness in my tone. I don't expect everyone to automatically pick up nuances, but I think if I explain the nuances and it's still ignored I have a reason to be a bit defensive.
Even in describing the situation now I feel like you are being a bit over exaggerative of your actual pressure. Like what do you mean about town "harping on the same arguments"? Between the time you logged off last night and logged on today there wasn't an extreme amount of activity about you. You had your spat with poly, pie bandwagoned and I am currently suspicious of him for his low effort wagoning from the day phase, and even then it's not like he really came at you with much. Same with supa who is mostly just on you for the defensive thingwhich even you seem to admit you were a bit defensive since you say you have reason to be. You haven't really addressed pie or supa individually, and maybe that's just because I am the only one online and responding, but it seems like if you were wanting to deter them it would be fairly easy to considering it's not like they have a lot on you. Your whole reaction to like 3 votes was "TOWN SUCKS" and a pity party.
I'm not advocating a lynch of him or even increased pressure as of yet. I'm just waiting to see how he responds. I want to watch how all players react now to find SCUM.UNVOTE.For now I'll unvote if it makes you happy.
Town's goal shouldn't me to make "lunatic happy" and if it were, unvoting doesn't accomplish what I was asking. If you are town, then town's goal should be to decide on an approptiate lynching course before the day phase expires with a plurality lynch. Given that the most votes are still probably on you, you probably have a vested interest here in helping decide a better lynch. So if not poly then who?
What are your thoughts on pie's activity, do you agree that his bandwagoney/ less enthusiastic approach to this game is scummy given is extreme activity in TUF Villains dp1? Besides you, the only other person I am really consindering a lynch on would be pie here.
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@Earth
I will be honest and say I am piggybacking off of what other people are saying. Though, when I saw my role, I instantly assume this will be a funky game and probably wouldn't have assumed there's a tracker.
Well, at least you are honest lol.
Though I would reccomend if you are town here to read through things and try to see if there is any behaviors that stand out to you because the day phases are shorter than normal and we are running low on time currently. Given the plurality lynching mechanic we ought to start deciding who we want to lynch and soon.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Responding to this post now because I was tagged in it, I see the DP has gotten a lot bigger and will catch up in a few hours.That post by MC came me off to me as genuine townie cluelessness. Keep in mind that being wrong is not inherently a scum tell and a lack of info is characteristic of town players. I don't think I have ever played with him so I cannot say whether he is good at faking such things as scum.
Oh I agree with that sentiment, I've actually been saying the same thing in a semi defense of chris the last couple pages. At most I just think its a null tell though, and I fail to see how that it makes him look better or worse. You specifically read him as town after saying it, so I am just curious why you think the cluelessness is townie cluelessness over mafia cluelessness. Or just why it isn't a null tell.
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@MisterChris
A couple things about poly to remember.
He is pretty new to the game so assuming he can catch all these nuances about why he should give you a pass as town is a little far fetched. Most new players
(even a lot of current old dogs here who have played a while) kind of just call things as they see it. Especially on a debate site, it's more natural for most people to take things at face value. I don't think it's incredibly surprising for him not to be giving you a lot of hard passes here the way I kind of am.
Secondly the tracker thing is pretty sus, because we had established at this point that the only way the game design makes sense if for everyone to have the same role. Even if that wasn't unanimously agreed upon, there was multiple claims at that point proving the theory correct. So mention of tracker or other roles proves that you either aren't caught up or slipped. I don't think it's surprising that many of the current players aren't willing to give you the pass of not having read completely. Again many people who play here just call it as they see it, and sometimes that results in mislynches, but it's a mislynch they will turn around and blame you for in the end. People like pie do that shit all the time as town, and turn it around in the endgame on the person he mislynched (like with earth in the last game). It's just how it is.
So what we are left with is this: Maybe town is being a little unforgiving about your behavior. But at the end of the day you made a mistake, and people latched onto it, as town tend to do with these things. I am left with trying to determine how authethic your raction to that pressure is, and I am still not sure how to read the fact that you are not being very understanding of your pressure, though it seems like it should be fairly obvious. Then we are back in the loop of "is this misterchris being defensive here mean he is scum, or just being an obstinate town?"
If I am willing to give you the pass for being obstinate town, I have to take in consideration what your plan to fix the current situation or get the day phase back on track is. If it's to pressure poly, then you are kind of hopeless here. Poly's reaction even if you can argue is mis-led, or not taking into account town motives, or whatever you want to say, is an accurate and commonly held position nonetheless. You didn't read the phase, slipped, and messed up. Redirecting pressure on to poly is a complete waste of time and will bring us no where with the day phase soon coming to an end.
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@MisterChris
For now, Polygot remains in my lean-SCUM category as he formed my mislynch train. However, should he reverse his position given the evidence I've presented, that read could become NULL, especially considering you apparently led a short lived wagon against Supa for much the same reason Poly jumped on me... You may have given him an example to work from.I want to focus on those who jumped on my wagon without a second thought. There is undoubtedly SCUM in the mix.
I have a hard time grasping how the bolded above wouldn't be more of a priority than poly here... If there is scum in the mix, the wagoners should be much more suspicious here.
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I will say I still don't feel the best about pie. The lack of excitement or interest in scum hunting here just feels like such a stark contrast from his play in TUF villains. This could be attributed to lack of excitement due to the game design (I felt the same lack of excitement initially) but still it's such a drastic difference, that combined with the two bandwagon votes I am just not feeling too hot about him being town.
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@MisterChris
I'm struggling to see how people (not just Lunatic) consider my post in #88 to be overly "incredulous" or overly indignant. I spent the entirety of the post engaging Poly's arguments directly. I think they are wrong and I think the wagon on me is probably headed by SCUM. In my view it's an obvious mislynch train and I provided good reasons why. It's not even close to Badger's random accusation throwing in the last game. That's a horrible comparison.
The reaction just comes off as defensive because poly pointed out a "slip" that literally anyone else would have pointed out if they were online. This morning I was catching up and saw the same thing and thought the same thing as poly before I even read his reaction to you.
Your response to poly was to instantly OMGUS vote him for what is in the mafia record book one of (IMO) the worst arguments in scum hunting. "You are trying to lead any random mislynch".
First off poly was the very first person on your wagon, and second scum are generally more calculated in PM chats then that. Is your thought process that mafia are in their communications saying "Let's throw out some random votes and see who bites!"? Generally mafia don't do that. I could buy an argument for bandwagoning better than that, which poly didn't really do since he was the one who caught the PM mess up and he was the first vote for you here.
So in light of the evenst of what happened, your reactionary vote seems very OMGUS based. Town sometimes can be defensive too, I just find that when mafia find the pressure is on they tend to over react a bit, especially in cases like badger where he hadn't played in a long time and was probably a bit caught off guard by the pressure. In your case, I will give you the slight benefit of the doubt in that I don't think you are noob as you have played in quite a lot of the recent games here.
All this is just to explain why I agree that your response could be seen as overtly defensive.
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@Earth
It looks like Chris is the hip thing to FOS. I don't really get what the Tracker thing is supposed to prove.
What is your opinion on Chris, do you agree with the FOS or not?
Any other suspects currently?
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@MisterChris
First off cool your jest a bit homie, there is still plenty of time to find a better lynch option if you are town here. Saying things like "Town is screwed" doesn't help us pursue a better avenue or anything if you aren't scum.
And I'll actually say you do make a decent point with you pointing out post 85 indicates you were aware town was 4x death proof. The only counter to that is that you posted that 19 minutes after your "slip" if it was indeed a slip, so you could have potentially become aware of the accident afterwords or been made aware afterwords. That said I am still pretty hesitant because of the reasons you mentioned as well as in regards to you not being a lazy mafia player.
What are your thoughts on other players? Anyone you suspect currently?
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I am only slightly hesitant to vote chris here mostly because if he was scum here I would expect him to read into what was going on and be a little more eager to read into what town is claiming and be a bit more vigilant with his reading. But he hasn't played scum a whole lot, so it is very likely it is a noob scum slip.
If he made a mistake like supa did, that's one thing. It's his response to poly that has me tripped up though, because it reads exactly how badger responded to HIM in Pie's game not long ago where badger acted incredulous about chris not understanding a joke instead of just admitting it was a joke that fell flat or was misunderstood and taking responsibility for that (the humble aka town response). Now we have him flipping a table over poly calling out his mistake in claiming 4x vig by accusing him of "trying to lead a mislynch", when the same situation obviously just happened when I thought supa scum slipped.
So does misterchris's kind of ridiculous and scummy reaction to poly outwiegh the idea that he as mafia barely bothered to read the day phase and put any effort into trying to blend in as town? I don't think scum chris would be lazy. Making mistakes is one thing, but this is just extreme lazy scum play if it is indeed a slip.
I'll have to think about this one. Would be interesting to hear more from chris though soon.
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@MisterChris
You're making a lot of assumptions about the rest of TOWN that I didn't feel comfortable to make (especially given I haven't played a Wylted game before).Regardless, that portions of TOWN have "screwy roles" does not equate to TOWN's roles having no utility. Hence my statement:"I say just be cautious about using roles. Only use if you are CONFIDENT in the utility it will bring TOWN."
The reason it is pretty logical to assume that others have similar roles is because 4x deathproof is an oddly specific number and a very high number of deathproof's for a townie to have. Logically is this is a normal game and scum kill you once to find out it doesn't work, they are likely going to assume you are bulletproof or were doctored or something. Initially I just wondered if all the other townies had some crazy powerful roles or something and this was gonna be one of those eyeroll games (still might be and probably is) but with all townies having a permavig the balance makes a lot more sense. However for this role to really balance or work with that idea everyone or most everyone has to have the same role.
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