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@Barney
@Pattern
Don't want to make too many assumptions but I think we just about narrowed it down to Skittlez and Water unless someone is lying
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@Pattern
That makes more sense. Yeah saying she is "worst" than her cousin is the type of typo I've known Supa to make
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@BearMan
Well yeah, he was instrumental no doubt... he was just no Sasuke or Gaara though in terms of importance
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@BearMan
Makes sense. Choji was a friend of Naruto but nothing special
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@Pattern
Funnily enough, the description I have makes it feel like I should have a power role. I am an heir to my clan's main branch and was the savior of the clain, but my cousin is "worse" whatever that means, and then I am randomly vanilla. I'd think someone who is the savior of their clan would be a power role. But regardless, that's why I told pie his theory on role description seems accurate prima facie, though supa could have just balanced that way because he needed more vanillas for balance.
Hinata was meant to be the heir of the Hyuga clan, but she actually lost the title to her sister who is better at fighting. Her cousin Neji is also far better than Hinata at fighting and
leading in general. Not sure where you're getting the "worse" from. Maybe Supa made a mistake... But Hinata was never meant to be the savior of her clan, just a powerful heir.
To summarize, her entire character arc is her being weak and unworthy of the title of heir and gradually becoming stronger. By the end of the series, she still never became heir, and she was generally pretty weak. A really good person, and a love interest to Naruto, but weak. That's where the vanilla role makes sense.
Your summary of the description doesn't make much sense, though. Can you do a more thorough description of what Supa said to you?
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@Barney
@ILikePie5
Pattern claimed Hinata. She loosely fits the vanilla role
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Heads up, probably won't be sharing an extended analysis today because I'm pretty busy. I'll get a thorough one out soon though
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@Pattern
I have to agree that Croc's role and results make sense. Croc also hinted before at being Kakashi (remember when he said "I am Naruto's teacher"), so I believe him. I don't know why he has been so lurky, but my suspicion of him is reduced.
I think that the best lead we have is Pie, even though he has acted pro-town. It would at least give us info on the theme split, as we know his character is on the evil side of things.
BearMan has contributed to town but I think he is worth the interrogation, and Skittlez is suspicious but he does seem receptive of interrogation.
If they aren't obvious vital power roles, I think both of them should claim character.
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@Pattern
Yeah I might join. Just finishing up some studying
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@BearMan
The conversation was getting redundant. There's only so much forum war I'll stomach in one day... I got shit to do man.
If you have anything new to contribute then by all means fire away.
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@Pattern
Alright, I'm going to ceasefire for now. I'm obviously not convincing you no matter what I say
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@Pattern
I said I wouldn't countervote unless you gave me more valid reason to. It's not a threat... Pie literally asked what I thought of you.
I full fledged am skeptical of you though, if you think that is tunnel vision your welcome to counter me.
I don't think it is. It hasn't crossed the line yet.
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@ILikePie5
Lemme ask you this: should your indecisiveness make everyone townread you?
Not throwing a counter-accusation when he accuses me could be a reason to townread me, I suppose. Frankly, though, the only reason I'm not throwing a counter-accusation is because I'm too wound up from arguing with him to make a good judgement right now and I recognize that. If I didn't, I would be playing the same game BearMan and Pattern played last day phase and I'd like to avoid that. Later I am going to reexamine his behavior and see if there is anything that suggests his previous self-vote was just a ruse, but for now I'm not making any judgements.
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@BearMan
Arguments in response to Pattern:
Arguments in response to you:
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@ILikePie5
Frankly the only thing that convinced me was his self-vote in last day phase. That easily could have been a calculated effort to change our minds... But for now I will not throw accusations his way.
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@ILikePie5
I was convinced he wasn't scum, but if he starts to get tunnel vision on me that might change.
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@BearMan
investigate MisterChris' questionable behavior
Doesn't respond to my arguments, pushes narrative anyway.
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@Pattern
I've seen all of those posts, and it doesn't help you case because you were still okay with lynching if that's what the majority wanted (even though you didn't hop on the lynch, contradicting yourself), and then STILL had the gall to try and use your lack of joining the speed wagon to earn town cred. It just makes you look worse if anything.
Alright, let's sum up your argument here.
In order for me to have "argued against a Speedrace lynching" I had to have:
1. Fought tooth and nail against it
2. Denounced everyone who hopped on board.
3. Not reserved the possibility of me being wrong.
Clearly this is ridiculous. I think what you're seeing is me being not entirely certain in either way. Truth is, I was 70-30 in favor of Speed.
Regardless, what you say was my attempt at "gaining town cred" was this:
RIP Speed. I TOLD YOU GUYS
A very mild form of lamentation.
or this:
In response to Pattern’s suspicion, let me make some arguments in my defense.I have regularly expressed my distaste at both a Speed and Grey lynch, and I’ve turned out to be correct.
Literally me just saying I was right to deter the suspicion you already had.
You're reading into this way too much. Again: you too often use debatable logic to come to grand conclusions... you often REALLY push a narrative on little evidence.
Evidence? What do you think this is, a legal case? There's rarely "evidence" that isn't psychologically based.
This entire game is simulating the proceedings of a jury... Even if it is not formal, I should hope that decisions are evidence-based. You act as if psychological evidence is not evidence. It is. The problem is, though, there needs to be a pattern of behavior. Taking a couple posts and extrapolating gargantuan claims is not psychological analysis, it is assumption.
I am trying to delve into your motives, your motives indicate you used speeds mislynch for town cred. Town don't need to say "I told you so", they just buckle up and look for the next scum.
It really wasn't my intention to fish for town cred initially with my first comment (i.e. post 25. RIP Speed. I TOLD YOU GUYS).
The second one was in defense of myself. If defending myself is fishing for "town cred", I don't exactly see this being an exclusive scum strat. You apply pressure to me and you think I am NOT going to try to get the town's trust?
My vote is currently on croc, I've recently asked the mod and croc where they are. I am considering pie being scum highly, mostly because of his claim being only ever seen in his own game, but something feels off about things. Just because I also suspect you, doesn't mean I am not looking into the others.
Sure. Fair point. Just maybe reallocate your efforts to where they are actually useful.
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@Pattern
You used the word argue, and argue you certainly did not.
1 [intransitive] to disagree with someone in words
No you didn't you were almost considering lynching him yourself lol.
Keyword ALMOST.
Here is a compilation of me saying Speed is most likely town.
Face it, there is no true evidence that I'm mafia. You're reaching for a lead where there is none.
What I said before is holding true:
you too often use debatable logic to come to grand conclusions... you often REALLY push a narrative on little evidence.
Maybe you should brake the wagon for sec and objectively consider who here is the most scummy. Croc has been lurky and Oro makes a good point about Pie.
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@Pattern
I am pointing this out to prove that you are lying about how well you "argued" against his lynch as a means to give you towncred.
Never said I argued well. You're putting words in my mouth.
You didn't "tell" us anything.
Yes I did.
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@Pattern
What I am saying is the fact you didn't know she said this, it makes sense why she would have been night killed. If you thought she wasn't the doc, she wouldn't have been worth a night kill.
This could be true of anyone here. I don't really understand why you're zeroed in on me. Just because I happened to miss one post? LMAO please
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@Pattern
This makes even less sense if you thought she was the doctor. Who would have protected her?
Lots of unique roles here. I figured if there is at least one other person with an ability like that, they should make use of it.
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@oromagi
Pie's justification that if the BOSS villain survives, TOWN wins doesn't make sense.
"My justification is the fact that Kaguya was the last villain who stood up against Naruto and is arguably the most powerful character on the show thus allowing me to unilaterally win for town.”
I didn't question this at first, but this justification only makes sense if there is no theme split... So you're right. If we were to lynch Pie it would tell us if there is a theme split of heroes and villains. That said, Pie has not demonstrated anti-town behavior, and provides some extra reassurance: “If at the end of the day we have no one, I’m more than happy to be lynched” Pattern adds: “Didn't supa have a solider in south park mafia? I know he likes the roles that are "different" And as you said, he is open about his scumminess. Does this fit Pie scum meta?
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@Pattern
That1user earlier: "He didn't oust the doctor"
Yeah I missed this. Sakura being the doctor makes a lot of sense if you've seen the anime... In fact, it makes so much sense I might've maintained that she was just lying even if I HAD seen it. Not really a scum tell, though. If you will remember, I argued for the protection of That1.
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@Pattern
Frankly, I said that I might lynch speed but never really intended to unless some new argument blew me away. And I always maintained that he was most likely innocent. I did not fight tooth and nail, I should've, but I didn't
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@Intelligence_06
You! Can! Finally! Copy! Paste! Links! Without! It! Failing! To! Work!
Definitely the best feature
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@ILikePie5
Signing off for the night, got class tomorrow 😬
RIP in peace
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@ILikePie5
Ohh gotcha. Yeah as it stands I'm mostly dropping my suspicion of Skittlez, he is much too open. Croc is fishy to me. And I would like to know Ragnar's side of the story too.
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@ILikePie5
Sorry, I think I misunderstand the question... "who are the other scum besides scum from your viewpoint?"
Can you elaborate a bit
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Let me also say, welcome back to the site. I see you haven't been very active for quite some time
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@secularmerlin
So, you agree we have this commonly accepted standard. And sure, you could argue for well-being as the standard. But why is well-being the standard? Evolution? God? Society (i.e philosophers and government)? You could make the case for any of those, and that's where the argument truly falls apart. If there is authority in a standard created by people, the authority is truly vested in the people that created it. And if God or Evolution created this standard, then the authority is vested in God and biology respectively. Even if morality is a law of nature like gravity, the very act of appealing to it assumes it has authority.
So, what I said stands: morality itself is an appeal to authority
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@ILikePie5
I'm not sure about his town meta... I'm new. But he has actually been fairly active so far (this day phase) and I don't think I've seen any scumtells. That said, this may match his scum meta perfectly
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@BearMan
I'd say the scummiest person right now is MisterChris. He always flips on whichever side town is basically supporting. (agreed with me when town townread me, agreed with pattern when town townread pattern). Again, this is only a slight tell, and he is a newbie, so it might just be that.
This is untrue. I did not support a Speed or Grey lynch when both were universally supported. I townread Pie just recently when there was mounting pressure on him. And I was the one to both help launch and help end the campaign on Pattern. There is a difference between jumping on an already rolling wagon and starting/ending it when the evidence points a different direction. If you want to see what goes on in my head, read my daily observations. You'll see that my opinion changes as the evidence evolves, not to the whims of the town. Am I perfectly logical and consistent? no. But I'm definitely not a pancake.
Also, if this is about me saying we should investigate you, let me make it clear that I mean investigate. Not lynch. Truth is, I doubt you are scum. You've been too helpful in other areas. But there are admittedly some scummy tells to be found.
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@secularmerlin
Morality itself is an appeal to an objective standard (i.e. authority).
Let me quote a debate of mine on the subject:
P1: If morality is objective, then we can expect virtually universal use of a standard set of moral principles.P2: All humans use and appeal to this standard, if only subconsciously.C1: Morality is objective.Let’s work through this. Whenever two men have a dispute, the one side tries to convince the other that they have violated a standard of good conduct that they both share, while the other argues that they have not violated such a standard.If there were not a shared standard between them, such an argument would be pointless, as one could simply say “to hell with your standard.” If that were the case, we could not condemn genocide, rape, or any other cruel act because we could not compare it to a universal standard of good conduct. Similarly, you can not argue that a football player committed a foul if the rules of football are not universally true.Since we DO make disputes/condemnations, this universal standard must exist. Thus, we affirm daily that morality is indeed objective.
TL;DR: Ethical claims can not stand on their own. They must relate to some objective standard. We can name this standard whatever we like but it exists all the same.
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@Vader
"Legalized Abortion"
AKA me vs Vector has 2 votes
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@Pattern
I argued that he was most likely innocent. No one listened. So here we are. That's why post #25 exists. Also, the idea that I'd have insider info is bs. I always reserved the possibility of Speed being mafia. I just argued that it was most likely not the case.
As for the rest...random lynching has never seemed like a good strategy to me. I get that you don't have previous games to reference when it comes to my behavior, but it's the truth.
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@Barney
Day 2 pt. 1 - 8/27 - 3:40 PM
SUMMARY OF DAY 1 END:
- Pattern maintains suspicion against BearMan.
- Speedrace, Water, skittlez, Ragnar gang up on Grey.
- oromagi, Pie, Grey, pattern, that1user, BearMan, Croc gang up on Speed.
- I am the sole neutral party because I see no evidence of Speed or Grey being mafia. I turn out to be correct.
DAY 2:
- That1User is dead. She turns out to be a weak hider. She could have died due to mafia, or we protected her and she died hiding behind an unknown mafia she thought was town. Since BearMan called for her protection and said he thought she was a doctor,the latter might be more likely. Pattern makes a good point: “Considering he was town reading bearman pretty well, that doesn't ease my suspicions of bearman in the slightest.” It is a distinct possibility That1 hid behind Bear. However, it is uncertain and both theories are plausible. VERDICT: Unknown.
- Speed was innocent as I suspected. However, we can’t really narrow down mafia based on Speed’s accusers, since there were so many.
- Grey says he used his tracking ability on Ragnar. This prompts Ragnar to admit to being Ensui Nara, a rollblocker. Because of “a successful RB, and the lack of a night kill” Ragnar starts a wagon on iLikePie. Grey says he does not believe Ragnar and VTLs. However, Ragnar has played towny, and his character and role matchup makes a lot of sense. VERDICT: Ragnar is probably town.
- iLikePie responds to mounting pressure with a full claim. “I already claimed my character - Kaguya Otsutsuki My role is Soldier - basically if I’m the last townie alive, town ends up winning. My justification is the fact that Kaguya was the last villain who stood up against Naruto and is arguably the most powerful character on the show thus allowing me to unilaterally win for town.”
- Pie has not demonstrated anti-town behavior, and provides some extra reassurance: “If at the end of the day we have no one, I’m more than happy to be lynched” Pattern adds: “Didn't supa have a solider in south park mafia? I know he likes the roles that are "different" VERDICT: Pie is probably town.
- Pattern expresses regret at Speed’s lynching. A good sign. He expresses suspicion once again at myself, BearMan, Croc, and Skittlez. VERDICT: As it stands, I second the suspicion into BearMan, Croc, and Skittlez. Each needs investigation.
In response to Pattern’s suspicion, let me make some arguments in my defense.
I have regularly expressed my distaste at both a Speed and Grey lynch, and I’ve turned out to be correct. The results of DP1 looks bad for everyone else, not me. As there was no other wagon to jump on, and no other leads to speak of, I withheld my vote and focused on gathering intel for DP2.
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@oromagi
Speed said there was a Naruto, and I'm sure there are other obvious power-role characters too. I feel like if we reveal characters it makes clear mafia targets.
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@Greyparrot
BearMan instructed us to protect That1User because she was doctor and everyone bought it. I think that it is more likely that we protected her and she died to hiding behind mafia.
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@oromagi
I can offer one. His character and role matchup makes a lot of sense. Ensui's ability restrains his target in the anime
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