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@DebateArt.com
I think it's better if we tell you exactly what's going on so you understand the problem... but reading some other comments, it's weird bc i don't have their problems. What i do have...
1) My notifications are stuck at the last one i got, notifications won't turn off when you go to the reply, and i'm not getting new notifications.
2) When i post, well, you won't get a notification that i replied... plus, my post doesn't appear until you refresh the page.
That's the part that is good. All you have to do is refresh the page and all comments missing should show up. At least it does for me, i don't understand other problems bc i primarily only post in forums, so it's only comments and replies i can attest to that are having a this problem.
Idea... maybe it's reached a threshold. Maybe it's a virus... not a computer guy so those are the only two things i can think of off the top of my head.
Edit: I noticed notifications also all appear when you refresh the page when you are under notifications. They are just not posting unless you refresh the page, so i think the problem is the site isn't refreshing the page how it use to do.
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@Stephen
Yeah, trust me Stephen.. this is one of the specific arguments ('explain how paradise is logical') i always pose to anyone of the opinion of being eternal in some kind of heaven/paradise. I tell them the implications, they squirm. I tell them that i truly without a doubt am scared to heck of such an afterlife, they get blindsided. How can i follow these religions when all they promise me is hell? It's seriously bw a hell of physical pain or a hell of slow mental torment. That scares the crap out of me... it doesn't sound like paradise. Everyone one of them, to date, can't answer this question. And the one's that do interestingly try... paint a picture that is not from they're text. That's the only way you can make sense of this question... change beliefs.And neither do the faithful Christians going by the zero responses to a question that they , after 2,000 years of biblical study should have no problem answering.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I understand what you are saying in regards to scenario two, and the psychic analogy to the level i need to in order to pose a question. But please expand and tell me why exactly if i am wrong in what i'm seeing. Like i said, i'm bad at math... particularly statistics.
In your psychic example, i see a weak experience. It's just one coincidence that she (she bc females love being psychics) got it right. I understand how one coincidence is likely. For instance, if i play the lottery... i can guess all the numbers will be even... but then, can i guess what those even numbers are? Well, statistically likely not... or else i'd be rich.
To me, when it comes to experiences, i look for patterns that should be statistically unlikely. For instance the experiences that i don't share and say they are suppose to continue to happen, they've been happening. And, i am continuing to monitor if they happen again bc certain events should trigger them. Although they are weak to medium experiences, when they correlate with a life event and continue to happen before that event... it truly makes you think, "what's going on?" I see these as statistically unlikely since there is a pattern that shouldn't be consistent. And in regards to confirmation bias... you have to understand my mind. I truly don't seek these things. I don't know when they will happen. I just know they should happen when they should. Most of the time my mind is either blank (seriously) or i am thinking of present things. I rarely think into the future, maybe a little more past but also rare. And truly, i can't guess when these events happen since the events themselves are random and rare.
But lets get to the experiences i shared. Let's talk about the one with the least amount of coincidences, the spinning necklace. Three coincidence had to happen for it to do the right, stop, left violent spin. If it only spun violently to the right on command, i would say your psychic scenario applies. However, there was two more coincidences of it stopping and then going left violently on command. I think this is unlike your psychic scenario since now there is two more coincidences that needed to happen for the event to occur. I don't see how that wouldn't be rare... then add into that the two other experience with multiple coincidences... that makes it even more rare. Factor in that these events themselves are random... i don't see how that is not statistically unlikely.
I understand your pattern seeking in humans factor however. I'm human, so it would be remiss of me to say i don't seek patterns. But, i truly don't think about these events. I just think if they've happened, they should continue to happen... and i wait and not think about it unless i'm having a conversation about them of course. Therefore, every time they do happen, they blindside me and i'm shocked they happened.
So, i don't know exactly how you factor patterns of events that need to happen if they've happened. And random experiences in specific scenarios with multiple coincidences. To me, you example sounds like a one coincidence, maybe two coincidence scenario. Sorta like playing roulette. I think it does't factor all the feelings i had before the event, the randomness of it having to happen in that specific scenario, then the spiritual experience itself with multiple coincidences.
My lack of statistical knowledge may be a problem, but in these experiences i shared and is why i share, i'm of the opinion that they are rare bc i purposely (exact the Vegas event sorta since i did go being curious about the dreams) tested them beyond what i thought should be statistically improbable. Maybe i should of asked for more spins and waited for more knocking sounds. But, in that moment, what i was seeing and feeling... i thought i was pushing it enough to be statistically improbable. Plus, you got to factor it was freaking me out it was happening in general. It was hard keeping it going while being freaked out it's happening.
Anyways, i don't understand your example clearly yet, but i do to a point. I hope i posed a good enough question for you to incorporate into your examples/analogies.
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@EtrnlVw
You know in agree with your vision, there are just some nuances i see differently. I think everyone will become this ultimate infinite consciousness. I don't think there is any right of passage. I believe when everyone becomes this source, they will be scared. I can say trust me i've experienced it, but really who knows if you're different and would like it. I suspect many will fear being this source however, bc knowing everything, being everything and everyone, know all beginnings and ends, knowing all stories happening, all at once... well, as a finite human it's hard to imagine, but i dipped my foot in it and it scared the crap out of me... i remember, all i wanted was to be human and forgetful again... i was begging for it.The fun part, is that when a soul gains the right of passage, they too can create worlds and realities
That experience is primarily why i think everyone becomes the source, is either shocked or amazed by it, but will soon individualize and shut down from being the source. Bc knowing all beginnings and ends isn't who we are. We don't want to know. We might think we do, but i don't think at that level. But anyways, the right of passage i think is formed in this life. You become who you will continue to be by who you make yourself in each life. If you are a crock and continue that life, when you individualize, you will continue to be a crock in the next life. It's only when you snap out of your ways and see there are more ways. But then again, i think some of it is by design. I think some people will infinitely continue to be what they are... bc that is how they were imagined. A rock star needs his groupies. So, if that reality is imagined, so are the groupies. Can these groupies snap out of it and become rock stars themselves? Maybe, but i don't think it happens often... or i should say i don't know.
So, just follow that logic and you'll see what i mean. That's basically how i see it as of now.
When you have a conscious reality that is capable of creating anything It wants through varying states of conscious activity you can have endless experiences. You have endless galaxies in one world (our universe alone), now imagine endless galaxies within multi verses.
I really hope your confidence in this, and my suspicion of it's potential for truth is right man. The implications of this would be the most beautiful end to this world.
I just realized I've never asked you this, which is wild since this is the coolest part... what would you do next?
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@Alec
I just posted and it didn't show either. Etrnl has a couple multi-posts... so i am suspecting it will eventually show up... but i'm just guessing. There is a posting problem tho.
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@EtrnlVw
You accidentally multi-posted lol ... hopefully this will catch you so you can delete them if it's not too late. I'll respond in the next post.
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That K-RINO song was sick. Saved to my likes.
You might like what i like... but first lets show it's not only American rap that's good.
Now for the Americans:
F*ck it lets show American rap and Foreign rap sounds good together too:
And... for last... the best stripper song i can attest to:
Enough supremacy for now... c/=
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@EtrnlVw
becoming unconscious to limit the effects of being eternal.
See, now that sounds more like a paradise to me. But, it's surely not found in the Bible... and i think you're right that he needs to think more on an Omnist type platform to get an idea of what paradise can be or it's potential to be. But, if you dig deep, which i know you've realized, paradise is very subjective to the observer. It's not just one thing... which by what it is, "paradise," that is the only logical conclusion since everyone has their own vision of what paradise would be.
God makes sure that this reality is something to be interested in.
I really have no arguments if a god created this reality. I like how you think there are creator gods. To me, it sounds almost like there are artists here that create realities for us to get lost in, like movies. I also look at this world like a movie. It's a C rate movie, there are things i love and things i hate. It's kinda like Donnie Darko. I don't know if you seen that movie, so i'll try not to spoil too much. Most of the movie i'm bored, but the ending... leaves me weeping. It's the most beautiful ending i have seen in a movie so far which puts this C rate movie in my top ten. I look at this life the same. I would create myself / manifest here a million times over for those moments i love... however, i also don't think i would play this reality often which would make sense of why i feel out of place and like an old soul. I don't know... the many realities and infinite mind (gods) hypothesis is very interesting in its implications.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
This has been an interesting thread to read through, i've noticed in times you have seen the same questions so i will give you one of my beliefs that's kinda novel.
Firstly, by "belief" i mean "i suspect" in this scenario. Since "belief" can have many meanings as i've seen you address and understand. So, in this case this is one of my "i suspect it can be true" scenarios.
I believe that you have the power to create yourself. Now, if you did or not is not under my control, since you control you. But, for myself, i believe i created myself to be in this reality.
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@Stephen
Yassine makes good points. I don't think there is outrage bc then we would have to be outraged everyday... and, that's kinda not how are minds work. We have selective outrage. Plus, we don't understand what's going on in countries that are fighting among themselves. They need to figure that crap out. But, every once and a while... someone blows up a bunch of innocent women and children, then you better be sure we'll be outraged. I think when it is "clear" that the event is just wrong, then we get outraged. Like going into a church and shooting innocent women and children... outrage meter on.
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@keithprosser
What goes round comes round... we whites had it good for a long time.
Well i for one hope it continues... bc the world doesn't look really good anywhere else. Well, Asians too... they are freaking machines.
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@Alec
Hey man, watch some documentaries on Africa. Those Warlords love living that way. They are smiling and laughing as the American interviewers walk them down the street with gunfire in the background. One guy said, "we love this, it's our world." So, everyone telling you that we would have to do a mass genocide is right. We would have to kill a lot of people, that by the way, won't be easy to kill since their whole lives are living a war... that is the only choice. If you are okay with America going in hot, with missiles, warplanes, ground troops, marines, and mowing people down... Then that's what you're okay with. These nations run by these Warlords won't make it easy though... you'll have to kill innocent people to get to them. You'll have to kill kids bc guess what, they fight too. Then, once you pass all that, you'll have to go up against rapaciously war hungry gorilla warriors.
I don't know how it would play out other than a mass genocide. You are coming at this question like they don't like their lives over there... sure, you're right towards some, but you're also very wrong. They love it. It's their own world, kings among the slums type shit. Why would they give that up? The only way is to take it away from them and erase them... genocide.
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@Vaarka
There are a couple girls out there sporting my clothing choices. I usually just give it to them if it looks good on them... idk about clothing, but i do have good taste in fashion (so i'm told), so there's always something in my closest i'm willing to give away to anyone that likes it... (well, i do discriminate and only let girls keep, but guys can borrow).
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You do think the supernatural explination is more likely though, or at least you said you do. Have you changed your mind about that between post 58 and now?
No, i would say i'm still torn bw both. Bc you can hear the stories i've told, but being there and feeling everything and seeing everything play out is a whole different story. By the way, certain experience i don't share are suppose to continue to happen. Bc these are experiences based off of what happens in my life. They've been consistent still... so it's an ongoing test with me. I'm keeping an open mind and trying to not let confirmation bias take over... but there are things that will happen in this life that should trigger my experiences. I'm curious if it will continue, that's why i don't share some experiences. I'm kinda mad scientist mode just waiting to see if they will happen again.
Edit: One thing i'll add that i think you feel i'm leaving out... yes, i do favor the "supernatural" (whatever that means) explanations more at this point.
Which of these outcomes is more likely from typing 20 completely random digits?
I'm horrible at math, so i'm tempted to google search this lol... but i'll answer the first thing i thought. If it is a random number generator, i would say they are equally just as likely. But if you put a human element into it, if the human is just typing randomly trying not to be repetitive, just like a machine would be, then again they are both equal. But if it is a human just typing, not really thinking of being random, i think the 4's would come up more often depending on the person. They may get tired of typing random numbers quicker and just decide to press the same button over again. Or, it could be a human that hates pressing the same number, therefore the other one is more likely to show up. But randomly, like a machine, i'd say both are equal.
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@Stephen
It's not very strange once you realize horny men are who wrote these religious text. All of the Abrahamic religions are clearly made by man the way they treat women. Take Mormonism for example... the guys get to have their own Earth that they get to create (be gods over). And from what i remember, i could be wrong, the women don't get anything unless they are married to a Mormon man. Plus, imagine the implications... you think the Mormon man is going to create a earth with other guys the wife could have fun with... naw, each city will be named by sex positions with a earth filled with girls. Man wrote these texts... it's clear.Strangely though, it doesn't' mention what the martyred women will receive.
In regards to the then what? I don't know... i find the idea of Heaven by all Abrahamic faiths to be flawed. I personally think living eternally would be hell. If death was not a part of this life, i'd probably go mad... well, actually i'm sure i would go insane. It's the prospect of that i will die one day that makes this life fun and bearable. That is why i say paradise would be living and dying. Spiritually, i would hope whatever the platform is has this concept incorporated... otherwise, i hope there is nothing spiritually and just death.
One thing i heard from a Christian in answering this is that you will go around eternally meeting everyone. And then i asked, "what then after i met everyone." He replied, "then you'll go around and meet everyone again since they'll have new experiences." As an introvert, that sound terrifying to me and quite frankly, a good script for a horror movie.
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@Stephen
The point of paradise is to live and die... which is clearly what makes the Bible's version fallible for i am willing to generalize no human can be eternal and stay sane. Maybe that is what paradise is, insanity... that would make sense in regards to an insane god creating this world.So , the question then is then: for those that manage to get to Paradise, then what? What happens then? What's the point of paradise?
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@secularmerlin
I think it depends on your age. I only watched T1 after T2. T2 was the first rated R movie i watched, where my parents would tell me where to cover my eyes... of course i sorta didn't. But, that makes it stand out for me over T1. The nostalgia is unmatched. It was the best thing i had seen... then of course i saw the die hard movies... which i was a little older. In that scenario i would say it's between die hard 1 and 3. It's hard to say, but DH1 i think is best. Three was pretty good too, i loved the bad guys and everything, but DH1 cannot be topped.
My favorite movie has always been the Crow. Now that's a movie that can't be topped no matter what you do... at least i don't think. Jason Momoe was cast for the part to play an updated version but he turned it down saying he doesn't want to ruin the original... it's too classic. I got a lot more respect for him for doing that not going after the money bc fanboys like me would have watched it no matter what for the nostalgia alone. But how do you top Brandon Lee. I'm getting chills just thinking about this movie lol... how do you top that?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Real fast to your first part i didn't copy; yes... i do acknowledge there can be natural explanations, and do i think the supernatural ones are more likely? I really don't know. My experiences are what keep me pretty solidly in the agnostic zone suspecting that a spiritual plane, whatever it is, is real. I left out many other experiences i've had... so it's not just these four i've shared. Which gets us to this question i copied... it's a good question.Do you think it would be possible to put a number on just how likely said natural explanations might be compared to yours or do you think your description of them as 'weak experiences' or 'strong experiences' is as detailed as you can get?
I say it's a good question bc who am i to rate them in general. Someone else can have had way more profound experiences than i have throwing my metric off. I just don't know. But as to just rating them among my own experiences... i like to think weak, medium, profound or strong. The way i measure those is by how many coincidences must have had to happen for these experiences to have happened.
For instance, the one of my friends is just one coincidence. He had a dream foreshadowing his death. Could that have been something more than just a random dream? I don't know. But then again, the coincidences are from what i knew. It may have ended up being a profound experience he himself had of events and didn't pay attention to it. But to me, it was one coincidence... which is weak bc it can easily be said it was a coincidence.
I haven't shared any of my medium experience, and i won't since i don't want to write a bunch, but these are experience with two coincidences that needed to happen for the experience to be what it is. I will explain this in my last category.
So, strong experiences and/or profound have 3 or more coincidences that needed to happen. The Las Vegas one is three coincidences. The dreams, the feeling and voice, the touch of his head, him seemingly healing in that exact moment. Actually, that sounds like more than three doesn't it lol. The spinning necklace one was three. To spin it right, stop it, spin it left on command. The meditation one was six coincidences of me saying leave and at the same exact moment sounds happen. I've had one more profound experience that i never share, i hope that's okay, but i've had four in total.
That is how i categorize these events. To me it blows my mind that i've basically won four lotteries bc for these experience to have happened exactly how they did is mind blowing rare. But can it happen... sure i guess. Although, than we get to my subjective view of it. The feelings i got, the things i saw in the moment. I don't know man, it's really hard for me to say these were just coincidence.
Sure the girl told me to tell them leave, but she didn't say i would hear sounds... but could i have imagined it. Sure possible. The Vegas one, he just healed on his own, sure, but what the hell was all that before it through my experience leading to him healing by himself... why would i have exact premonitions just for an event he healed on his one... i don't know. The necklace one... the only explanation is i spun it myself subconsciously. But the thing is that's a lie, bc not only did i make sure i was ready and i wasn't twisting it, i know i didn't twist it... so again, i don't know, possible yes, but i would be lying to say i spun it.
I've critically examined every event that has happened that was in the form of a spiritual experience. All i can say is my conclusion isn't they are all natural or supernatural... it's a big i don't know. Could it be something we having discovered yet? Could it be another spiritual realm? It could be many things, but i'll lastly say... i'm not the only one. Bc i've had these experience, i've sorta been obsessed with asking everyone i meet if they've had experiences. I've done this for years, which i think may set us apart if you've never experience anything why be curious or ask. In my years of asking though... i've heard some crazy stories. In my years of looking up all the comments people leave on the internet, i've seen some crazy story. All i can conclude is that they are lying or deluded.. but the thing is, i'm not, at least to any medical standard lol, but i'm not and i've seen some crazy things myself.
To me, that is overwhelming evidence of something. That is why i've never crossed over to atheism or just a one world natural everything follows one set of laws type thinking. Even philosophically, the chances of that being true in an infinite setting i would say is not favorable. But mainly, since i've experienced weird things, i'm more open to there being something. What that something is i can only guess. But i have found a monistic type of platform best answers these experiences bc it allows for multiple experiences that are subjective to the person experiencing them. It's interesting, and i hold it most favorable until i'm aware of something else.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Last one that happened to me was while i went to a party bus to vegas. This one needs the context but i'll try to make it short. I'm introverted and never in a million years would i go to Vegas in a tour bus. However, the whole year before i was having reoccuring dreams of being in Vegas looking for something but not being able to find it. So when a friend asked, that sparked me to go thinking i wonder what the dreams meant. First night there, i got called to a friends room at night. Another thing was, i was getting really bad vibes. When i got to the room, all friends were crying. Apparently, a friend was in the bathroom throwing up blood every 3 minutes give or take. They didn't know what to do. As soon as they said something about what to do... i got hit with a feeling, it's hard to explain. My body felt energized... like fuzzy electricity radiating from my body. And at the same time i heard a voice, "tell everyone to leave you can heal him." I've never heard a voice before, but i have felt that fuzzy feeling before which is a more personal story but i'll tell you what it did at the end. So, i tell everyone to leave and circle the room not knowing what to do. As i'm circling, he threw up blood two more times, so i thought, if this doesn't work i have to take him to the hospital. So, i put my hand on his head. That fuzzy feeling i had felt like it drained from the bottom of my feet to the last of it leaving my finger tips. The crazier part is, as soon as the last of it left, he went from cringing and holding his stomach in pain, to a breathe of relief and a smile on his face. Of course i poked him a couple times to make sure it worked, as my mind was blown... he kept saying leave me alone i feel perfectly fine. The trippy thing is, that fuzzy feeling i had one other time before were i was mentally healed of some personal stuff.
One last one i will throw in that i don't usually share has to do with someone else. It was a friend of mine that was a bad heroin addict. He was really fun to be around but not when he was high, but i would still go over trying to help him take less. One day he told me the people he picked up from are gangsters. They acted tuff with him and told him some stuff, but this kid was happy go lucky... he kept telling me don't worry they just messin around. But i personally got a bad feeling. Another day i saw him, he wasn't himself. I asked whats wrong. He said he had the weirdest night. He said everytime he was about to fall asleep, he would see full apparitions of people coming in and trying to kill him. The next day, the gang killed him by giving him rat poison to inject.
Now i have critically thought of all of these experiences, and they all have natural explanations. But in my opinion, the natural explanations are a little more far fetched than what i've actually experienced. You have to take it for what it is... a big who knows. Since i can't control any of this. Another thing, each experience is a different strength. What i mean by that is the coincidence that needed to happen in order for it to happen. The last one, friend dying by gangsters i would categorize as a weaker experience, where the other three in my older ages i would categorize as strong. I've really thought this through and all i can tell you is there are things that happen, or seem to happen, that break the rules of what we know "today." Who knows if in the future we figure out these things are just as natural as a germ virus, but i'm quite confident they happen. And there theme points towards another reality that we can't see with intelligent entities.
Another important thing to note here is that these are my experiences. I know it might seem like multiple people since i'm blessed (i'm being sarcastic) with so many experiences. But this is an important note bc i am not the only person that reports experiences that defy are laws. To me, only one out of the millions has to be true for the implications to be wild. I've had more than a dozen, which i'll gladly leave out since you're sick of ready by now. Imagine that, i've had this many, and millions of others have had them too... and only one has to truly have happened in order for there to be just something. So, i am quite confident there is something more to this world we don't know that defies are current understandings. What that is, i can only piece together, or try to... which i have and have come to the conclusions i have. It's really hard for me to turn away from it's possibility being on the front lines of seeing these things. Is it bc that's how i was born? Or something extra in my mind that isn't blocked? I don't know. By i have an idea, which fits into my spiritual platforms, why everyone doesn't experience such things.
I know i said i'll try to cut it short, but i soon released these won't make much without the context. So sorry for the story time but i hope you find it interesting and it makes it a little more clear why i see things the way i do.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Do you think that "science does not outright disprove [insert idea here]" should be considered a valid reason to accept an idea as true?
No. You're right. It isn't a valid reason as you say it. It just doesn't count it out. That's really all i am looking at from the science perspective. Since i'm well aware science doesn't prove or disprove anything. With that said, science can disprove with a little more certainty other beliefs. I just don't think this is one that it can disprove with any amount of force. It's really sorta like solipsism with a twist. Main thing to me however is that it is the strongest when correlating it to science. That isn't saying much, and i'm not trying to. It just moves me along to thinking of other thing rather than saying "well science disproves this so i should just go on faith." Which i'm not trying bag on. Respect to anyone that does that, i just feel more comfortable when things seem consistent.
Would you lime to talk more in-depth about these experiences?
This isn't something i can be concise with since my experience span back to being 5 or 6 years old. I remember three things from around that age and older that were not possible. I saw an apparition of a blue angle jet pilot that recently crashed and died. I saw what can best be described as a demon in my past homes balcony. And one of the weirder ones was when i planed to go to the queen marry with my family. I asked my uncle where is it. As soon as i said that, i heard the sound of a ships horn. My uncle pointed, "there." All of these i was too young to know they were anything different. However, i did feel they were supernatural... but that's another thing about me... i have always, since i can remember, felt like i am here from another reality. So as a kid, i was sure the supernatural is real. I was mostly always confused why it didn't happen on demand or more often. Anyways, the stories above started it all for me... the journey of finding answers. Now, these are things that happened when i was young. 5 to 9/10. I have had other experiences in older ages too.
For the sake of not writing a novel i will try to shorten each event and tell you only the most profound. First one was i saw an arua of blue around my cousin. I got scared and went home and thought it was a fluke and then saw one around myself that was green while staring at myself in the mirror. The colors where as bright as led light bulbs. This again started my journey that's why i tell it. The next three were the most profound. While in meditation i was told i can find my 'higher adviser' but to be careful of evil spirits and to tell them to leave when i see them. I did it, saw something evil, said leave... and heard bang bang bang in my house. I'm naturally skeptical so i held my concentration and waiting a few more times, 6 to be exact. Each time i said leave, on que i heard bangs when i said leave.
Next experience was at a friends friend's house. The house looked haunted so i joked about it. The kids eyes lid up and said "how did you know." He went on and told my stories that were just impossible, but the theme of them was it can manipulate live things. So i got an idea, took off my necklace, and told him to tell it to spin it. Being skeptical minded, i said wait as i sat and held my hand as steady as i can and also observed the natural spin. Once i was ready i said go. He said spin it, it started spinning wildly to the right. I still wasn't convinced so i said tell it to stop it. He yelled stop it. It slowed and stopped. I still needed more proof and thought it would be impossible if it spins hard left at this point. I asked that, he said it, it started spinning violently to the left. It was my necklace, i was watching his hands, and there is another person there that can corroborate i'm not imagining it. I wanted to go back and try it again, and other things, but the kid died a week later.
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@disgusted
And even better it's as easy as to invent a new platform whenever the need arises. Just create the platforms that pacify you and you can be happy forever, well for as long as you live anyway.
That most definitely would be true if i was here to prove every sub-human that doesn't believe what i do wrong. But that isn't my attentions. I'm just curious that there are platforms that can be construed as possible. That / this subject has interested my for a very long time. In that search, i have found multiple platforms that have potential to be viable. So, it would be silly of me, and quite close-minded like the other theists you "debate", to say i have the answer and it's this platform and if you don't believe it you are deluded. At least give me some points, although not necessary.
The extent i would call someone close-minded and/or deluded based on beliefs... religious or not, is one one presupposes they have the right answer. If you think about it, we are infants in the mothers wound, if that, compared to time. To think we know anything is laughable. And by that same logic, a lot of the stuff you are hearing from people looking into the future and "making stuff up" about the future, are a lot more likely to be right than the person that thinks what he knows today is the right answer.
So who knows... all i know is that we have the ability to imagine into the future. And, i'm pretty sure a lot of our awesome inventions come from people with this ability. There is something to it. Whether that correlates with spiritual subject or not is irrelevant. Humans have the capacity to imagine the impossible and manifest it to a degree. I find that interesting.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Well. I thought there is a little more to the "why" in my answer than the what i believe. For instance, it can be an explanation for infinite regress paradox. But i understand what you mean that i described what i believe a little more so. I'm trying to think of the "whys" but the list isn't that long since i'm not entirely sure if this platform is correct. But there are still some reasons why i prefer it.
Our sciences and/or world would be compatible. Everything is made of the the same particle. That could be bc it is ultimately one. The infinite regress paradox fix is one. The rest, and i must admit my ignorance of science here, i'm not too confident of. But when i here it told by others as a layman, they also seem compatible such as the double slit experiment and variation thereof, and the spooky action of quantum entanglement. Then there are theorized stuff like multiple universes and some other hypothesis.
Second reason in the why is the world around us. I believe spooky things happen, spiritual experiences. It would explain why everyone has there own type of experience and anything spiritual in nature is subjective to the observer. Then there is the potential for this world. This is just a guess though, but if humans fully integrate with machines, this one mind, one download, type world is possible. A computer that has all consciousness downloaded into it is correlative to the platforms i say i favor. So again it's conceivable. Lastly is our art. In our art, each person creates world of their own. This is a little less potent as the others, but i see how one person can be creative to the level of creating universes, i.e. harry potter, marvel, etc. It's curious to me, given in infinite platform, how crazy the implications of an infinite mind can actually be. Bc within the worlds we even create, there are characters, events, a story. And just as it is happening in our art, i don't see why it can't be happening in a grander scale.
But like i said earlier, the why is a little trickier than the what. Bc giving solid "why" answers means i'm 100% on board, which i'm not. I just find it to be the most likely which is easier to explain why giving my reasons of what it is. But, i can do better when you ask direct questions like you have. So, i hope i touched on the 'whys' this time around. If not, tell me what kind of "why" answers you are looking for bc i may be misconstruing what you're asking me to explain.
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@keithprosser
Sure, that is a pretty good sum up of the implications. I think he wanted my reasoning for it, so i added that into my explanation which would be why it's a long answer. I also wanted to add that i am starting to suspect this isn't how it plays out for everyone. Which is why i am suspecting, due to everyone being in control of themselves, things play out in infinitely different types of scenarios. Anyways, you can chime in with critiques too if you have any.I'd sum it up as believing that being dead is like having a lucid dream.
Have you ever had a lucid dream?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It's all good. I'm not always on myself. And to think, a one sentence question could have so much answer. It is a deep question though. I don't choose to believe what i do off faith, so i try to reason as logically as i can... i am holding back too. Lol. I'll try to be more concise in the future.
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@Mopac
So you think socialism equals atheism therefore you are against it bc... yeah, fuck atheists. SMH. Come on man, you are the poster child for why religion is all corrupting. I respect that you don't want to talk about politics so i won't get further into it... but i'll leave it on a religious note which i agree with... man is sinful and corrupt. This is why i do not trust they will help other man from the kindness of their hearts. If we didn't have SS, i am confident the old in this country would be suffering... bc yeah, humans are sinful, greedy, creatures... this doesn't mean there aren't good ones, but i'm not confident there are enough good ones.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Well, for many reasons. The spiritual platforms have this implication when you get into the details. I will go into one of them, non-duality, bc it basically explains the rest being basically the same as any monistic belief, pantheism, panentheism, oneness, etc. If we are all "god" then we are all in control of ourselves. There are many ways this could play out. Either we all become literally god, turning into one super entity, or the platform itself is divided. I tend to think the platform is divided. For a lot of the reasons i anthropomorphize bc really it's all i can do being it's all we know of intelligence. With that said, it's logical that intelligence plays out how it does even if it is in another form. Plus, if it is "me," in some sense, that continues... well, it's logical it will play out how i know.In light of this I would like to ask again why you think it is the case that a person's afterlife is determined by what that person believes the afterlife will be like.
Anyways, i think a oneness platform would divide bc intelligence such as ours would find being only "one" entity alive would be terrifying... especially if it is infinite. So, i think it would divide into multiple entities instead of staying as one. Considering an incorporeal or infinite unbound consciousness could do anything it can imagine, this wouldn't be in the realm of impossibilities. Therefore, if we all die and go back to a source platform, you can call it god i guess i call it source bc it's more fitting, then i believe within this platform we have individualized. Now, this has some caveats, i don't think everyone has, nor do these rules apply to everyone which is what makes spirituality very hard to grasp and verbalize. Bc an infinite intelligence has thought of everything. So it is everyone, everything, and it is also not everyone and everything... it would have thought of everything. So a platform such as pantheism, god is infinite and basically an unbound consciousness / intelligence. The implications of that is wild knowing what we know. This is what leads us into believing you are / control your own platform.
If one doesn't believe they control there own platform or paradise, then it is very likely that they don't. They would fall under the caveats. In such a platform, that is possible. So it really comes down to what you are. Bc every character has been imagined. Think of it as an art piece or our own movies. If there is a rock star, that rock star comes with its fans. If these fans become infinite and can control their own paradise, would they always choose to be fans? Or would they continue to be fans in every reality they manifest into. See i don't know. I think maybe some will always be fans, and some can be both. That's why it is so hard to explain this spirituality. But if you are imagined as a fan, i am starting to believe you will continue to be whatever it is that you are. Basically, if you can imagine being the rock star, you can become the rock star. The interesting part is, i use to be a musician and have talked to a lot of fans, and some die hard fanboys and girls. They "can't" imagine being the rock star... they acknowledge they find more enjoyment in being the fan and would hate being on the other side. I find that interesting in such a platform.
So, the spiritual platform is one reason. Then there is this experience in what i see. The society i am in does control me, and so does my environment, but i am in full control of myself, i.e. my thoughts. Sure life can steer me certain directions, but it is ultimately my mind that controls what i do in said environment. I can even be locked up in a torture type scenario, and still.. i can control where my mind is until it's shut off. So, if our mind continues after this life, why would it be logical it isn't still under my control? Now, this would depend on the afterlife platform. If it's a matrix type of thing, i.e. i have a physical body somewhere else, then i will just continue in whatever that next platform is... in control of myself still, but not "paradise" (which paradise means reality basically). But, if i die and my consciousness becomes infinite, incorporeal, etc., in a non-dual type platform, then that would mean i am in full control of even the reality. Since now i am just 'mind' and no body.
So it really comes down to the platform. Something like Christianity would be similar to the matrix analogy. You get a body somewhere else and you have to put up with that reality. But i do not favor that view and favor the non-dual, infinite consciousness type platforms. They make more sense which i can explain why (other than these reasons above) if you ask me questions. But for instance as i am saying in the other thread that this platform suits an infinite setting. So for example, the problem of infinite regress is solved by an infinite consciousness that travels the platform by thought. Bc thought is always present. It doesn't matter the distance, if it is in the past or future... an infinite mind will be there if it is there. It will create where ever the thought is, or manifest where ever the thought is. Since it is always present, it can exist presently in any moment of the infinite setting. So if there is infinite earths before this earth, it isn't about when the big bang gets to this reality, it's about when this infinite mind becomes present in this one reality. One of the many reasons i favor an infinite consciousnesses type belief.
Btw, i'm glad you define "belief" like i do. It takes me forever to tell people i don't mean it in an iron clad way, it just means i suspect all this more than i do not. Many people don't take it that way... so we are on the same page in that regard.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Overall you're right in your assessment bw our to beliefs. I do find it more likely that we are not the first, while i understand you don't think we are. Since we both can't prove either or, it just comes down to personal speculation. I just personally think it is very unlikely, given infinite time, we are the first every intelligent thinking entities. I almost find it impossible, but i do agree with your micro version of it, within our galaxy at least, yes i would agree we are the first (i think the fermi paradox backs this assumption). I would actually take that further and say we are the first within this universe, but then again, i believe in multiple universes which is why i go that way i believe that way. If this is the only universe, then i would only agree as far as the micro scale. So, it really just comes down to personal speculation on this topic. It's probably better to address the details on the other thread when i get into why i suspect afterlives as i do, bc this conversation is probably going to go that route anyways.
In regards to there being problems with an infinite platform. I have not heard any that would convince me it's not possible. I haven't heard of the entropy one, but i read Keiths response and kinda got an idea of what you mean. I think in system where it began, even if it is infinite beginnings, entropy will play out how it is. Remember, i believe in multiple universes (of some kind..not sure which is exactly the right one), so i don't think our universe is the first that had a beginning... or it could be that our universe has always been around and this is just how it's always played out as it moves. But since i've never heard of the entropy thing, i may be missing out on something.
One thing i'd like to add to the infinite setting is that i think if there is a higher intelligence (of some kind) that it can navigate the setting or in some way manipulate it... most of the paradoxes i've heard of at least are explained. It at least works much better than a finite setting where you'd have to explain where it ends, what is the end made of, how long does it stay ended, and does it start again. That is why a setting without an end or boundaries makes more sense to me.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I'll just get specific on the more interesting answers.
It's good that you acknowledge you aren't certain... i had to be certain of that first to make sure you can logically have a conversation. I'm guilty for testing the waters bc you never know on this site. Lol.
Yes (in regards to aliens)
I'm assuming you mean a living organism somewhere in the universe, specifically. But, if there are other living organisms, then there is no reason why there couldn't be living organisms like humans. I guess first question would be if you believe there are other intelligent being type aliens. I'll assume your answer is yes just to get to my point.
Considering how humans are evolving and growing technologically in a time frame that is nothing compared to the universe... if there are aliens that have been around for a million years or so, somewhere, wouldn't it be logical to say they could have created a "god"? One way would be to create a super computer that they have downloaded their civilization into. In this simulation they can create any reality, or anything they have imagined. Basically, a god type civilization. This would mean a god is logically to have been created by another intelligent civilization.
I think Earthlings might very well be the first sapients.
This is why i also assume what i said above's answer might be no, as to intelligent aliens. But, i will challenge that here. You think it is logical, in a seemingly infinite platform, that we are the first? We are proof that are type of intelligence is real and can exist. Wouldn't it be illogical to say we are the first?
These questions circle back to the first two questions. Such as another intelligent entity, aliens, if they created a simulation... would mean there are alternative realities. I guess it really comes down to if you think we are the only intelligence that has ever existed... which then i would have to ask, isn't that illogical given infinite time. We can define infinite as having no boundaries and/or having a definitive end. If you think things are finite, i would question how is that possible and/or logical? An infinite setting makes more sense than a finite setting (bridged interestingly bc intelligence exists).
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@Mopac
Socialism is fundamentally an exploitation of people's envy and greed to destroy their own societies and consolidate 99% of the wealth, power
That is so skewed. Capitalism is the exploitation of people's envy and greed. It's what fuels love for money. And as you say, we live in a wicked society. Where people don't care about other people if they don't know them. I could be dying of hunger and you, or maybe not you but most others, wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Now, making a dramatic leap to socialism wouldn't be the key to stopping it... but, it is in a better direction that capitalism and trusting the money will trickle down... in no way does that happen bc people are greedy and flawed with basically no working empathy towards those they don't know.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
How are you certain that no gods exist?
Do you believe this is the only reality? Basically, that this is the only universe and there are no other universes? Again, how are you certain?
Do you believe aliens exist?
Do you believe human intelligence is the only type of intelligence that has ever existed? Basically, that humans are the first entities that exhibit this type of intelligence, consciousness, sentience?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It sounds like a comforting idea, but does that actually have anything to do with whether the idea is correct?
One of the best parts of this sort of view is that there are multiple platforms which would allow for such implications. And in my opinion, all of the most philosophically logical platforms such as non-duality, monism type platforms, higher consciousness, etc. on that line, allow for such a truth (which are platforms that i can logically defend the most). But is the idea correct? I can't answer that... no one can answer that. If anyone tells you their belief is correct, they're lying. I just piece together all the current knowledge i have, all the reasoning and logic i can put behind a spiritual platform, what even our current science and technology would points towards, and i would say it isn't an impossible belief. In the end of the day, i'm crossing my fingers it's right. I am starting to really suspect it though, i can say that.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yes, nice catch. That's exactly what i mean. Bc if you think about it, i don't have to worry about anyone else's belief, nor do you have to worry about anyone else's belief. Bc it is all subjective to what you want, what you work for, what you live for, and what you get. I don't have to go to your paradise, and you don't have to go to mine, or we can both believe the same paradise and go to it... It would explain why there are so many different beliefs. Bc if you ask people one at a time to define paradise... you will start to see a very different picture than only one being true.When you say superior in this context do you mean 'more likely to be true'?
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@Castin
Not particularly... but i wouldn't put it past me to do... especially talking the girl into it and trying to steal her from Adam. Yeah, i'm one of those assholes.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I'm agnostic, so i'm not sure if my belief is right. But i feel that my belief is superior if it is right bc i believe everyone is right. So, i don't really have to care which religion is right since they're all right in my eyes. And, btw not the text... i think everyone is right about what afterlife they will get and/or they are in control of their afterlife and will journey it just as i will journey whatever i believe. In that sense, i think everyone is right.
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@Castin
If Christianity is true, i'm 100% confident that i'm Lucifer.
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@Poly.
I really don't have to reply to that... but it's only when someone loses my respect that i look down on them and ignore them accordingly.
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@Mopac
Herein is the problem:
There surely instances when the bible clarifies what is written in it.
What is clear to you is not clear to someone else, what is clear to them is not clear to you. That is why people can justify their evil acts with the Bible and other religious text. Plus, i don't understand why only a few handful of people can interpret the Bible when it is literally the last word of a God. This means you get one thing wrong you are burning in hell. The Bible should be easy enough for everyone to understand in order for everyone to be saved. It can't be that just a few people understand it... especially since the few people are mere humans... they are flawed too.
There is a lot about the Bible that has flaws. I'm not being mean... it's just what i see. I would never put my eternity, my immortal life, in the hands of a few humans dressed in robes.
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@Mopac
No one has ever killed a person in the name of the most popular self help book. However, many have killed in the name of the Bible, Koran, etc. It doesn't matter if they are translating it correctly or not... it "spawns" death and destruction bc it is in my opinion flawed. You can have any other reason you want, but it doesn't change the fact that people kill in the name of a religion's text. If you deny people kill in the name of the Bible i would really question how far gone from reality you will go to protect this book.No, there is nothing about Orthodox Christianity that spawns death and destruction. Death and destruction is certainly spawned from somewhere else!
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@Mopac
It most certainly has. Even if you say it was interpreted incorrectly, and i agree with you... there has been destruction and death on its behalf.There is nothing about Orthodox Christianity that spawns death and destruction
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At least my true colors isn't being a coward.
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@Tradesecret
Ok, then please inform me - I am also curious.
I was amicably asking you... your reply is of another self important delusional hate filled bigot that makes no sense... conversation over.
Blah blah blah
Projection.
Do you remember that word I mentioned above "time". You are asking me to consider something in accordance with that word. Take time out of the picture
You make no sense.
It is about who I am with and whom I will spend it with.
"me, me, me" None of this is about you. Your religion's paradise along with your religion don't make sense.
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@Mopac
I don't know bc of everyone else... that is far from being my own guide. You have a problem of making things up just to sound like you have the moral high ground. Believe however you'd like... i do not believe religion, especially Abrahamic religions, are humble beliefs by any stretch of the imagination. Humble beliefs don't spawn death and destruction.It takes humility to become a monastic and to trust an elder to monitor you and help guide you. These monastics look more humble to me than the agnostic who rejects that anyone can know, and become their own defacto guide.
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@Tradesecret
I would say try to understand what i mean before calling my fears "stupid." Bc from what you wrote, i can clearly see you don't understand what i mean and how i got to this conclusion. I didn't just wake up one day and say "heaven would be hell." Who would think of that? Also, i would be interested to see who else you've seen make this argument. From what i'm aware of, i'm really the only person that i know makes this argument. I'm sure there are others, i just haven't seen it in detail so it would be interesting if you know another so i can see their logic.
In regards to the only alternatives being hell or becoming worm food... i would encourage you to get a little more creative. Those are not the only alternatives by a long shot. There are spiritual platforms that would allow everyone to have their own paradise, etc.
Also, i hate it when Christians tell me i can't understand something. Seriously, how do you know what i understand and what i've experienced? You can't. I have had out of body experiencing to which i have felt the feeling of becoming immortal or eternal... and it was not pleasant and is now one of my worst fears. Of course i can't just explain it to you and you'll get it... but, there are analogies i can use to help you understand it. Here is a movie analogy that illustrates what i mean, this can also be a music analogy but a movie is a little more like reality.
Imagine you have a favorite movie. This movie is the best movie you've ever seen and makes your hairs stand in how good it is. Now, imagine if i told you that you are only allowed to watch this one movie for the rest of your life. This could work right? Bc you will space it out and play video games instead, you will do other hobbies and watch it once a week, once a month, once a year. However, over the years... you will know every line, you will be able to imagine every face, etc. Also, it will likely stop making your hairs stand, and those other excitements you got the first time. But how long will it take for you to not find enjoyment in this movie anymore and just stop watching it all together? It may not even happen in this life time, but remember, you are eternal in heaven... how many years would it take? Now, this is a nicer version and not what i felt when i experienced it. Imagine now that your only entertainment in this life will be this movie. How long will it take for that movie, your favorite, to become torture? Again, it may never become torture in this life... but lets times that by infinite... I am quite confident it will become torture.
If you can imagine my analogy above, you will be able to understand why i am afraid of becoming eternal in any sense of the word. Not only do i understand the above analogy... i've felt it. That's why i find humanity to be so brilliant. That is why i think death is the most brilliant creation an infinite consciousness could create. And my suspicions seem to be correct since in this world death will always be there. Even if we become machines and populate the entire universe.. death will always be there. It's the off switch, it's the button that changes the movie. That's why i see it as something very beautiful and i'm glad i will one day die. For Christian's to tell me well guess what... you'll die and become infinite with god is literally my worst nightmare.
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@ludofl3x
It's not really ANOTHER paradox, but I'm not really sure what 'someone like (you)' means. I know you've largely made up your own version of faith and supernatural and realms and levels, right? Then the answer is you go to hell where you'll be eternally tortured for your blasphemy and potential apostasy. It seems pretty straightforward to me in your case. You aren't a Christian, you go to hell. I'm not a Christian, I go to hell. The problem isn't with us. It's a problem for Christians.
"Someone like me" means people that also think paradise as described by people (mainly the Abrahamic versions) would be hell. I'm not the only one that thinks that... i might be a little more extreme in saying it would be an eventual hell, but i'm sure there are others that believe that too. Which brings about the paradox of where we would go. And in this paradox, the only way you can answer it is to change how paradise is defined... which in turn, changes a lot of other parts of the religion. In any case, you are correct... i would go to hell, but to me the alternative is an eventual hell anyways. It may not be physical torture right away... but it will be an eventual mental torture that i think could be even worse. So why in the world would i actively believe in a religion that only offers me hell? I think it's an interesting paradox that i haven't had a good answer for... other than Christians that do change what most others describe as heaven... or, those that just say i don't know.
I haven't made up any platforms. I've been researching and/or interested in metaphysical subjects for a long time. In the end of the day, i'm agnostic. With that said, there are certain platforms i think are more logical than the rest... and interestingly, those platforms also have similar implications in regards to the afterlife. There is nothing i've made up except for what i would consider to be "paradise." I think by its nature, that will be subjective from person to person. And, there are spiritual platforms that allow everyone to have what they would consider to be their paradise. That is really what's most important to me. But do i know which platform is correct, no. Do i suspect a spiritual reality in general is possible, which basically means do we survive death, i think that's possible. Other than that, it really comes down to what will happen to "me." Just like this life, everyone's journey is different. I don't see why that would magically change in regards to some spiritual outcome/reality. I'm pretty sure it will be me having another journey... or, it won't be me at all... which some spiritual platforms also makes possible and of course just nothingness from a dead brain. I'm just pretty confident it won't be anything like the main religions describe.
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@Mopac
I don't think an agnostic's problem is pride. Out of all spiritual beliefs... that is, in my opinion, the most humble answer to what a human could be sure of. Anyone that is sure one way or another of one specific platform has a problem with pride, ego, etc.
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@Mopac
Yes, it won't be.. by definition hell will be worse, but by definition heaven will eventually turn to hell. And that kind of slow mental torment might even be worse than physical pain. There is nothing you can say, other than change the definition of paradise, to make me not see it as an eventual hell. I don't care what "Orthodoxy" calls me... it's flawed humans trying to define me to which would make them feel good of themselves. I feel sorry for their weakness.And hell won't be more enjoyable than heaven, and it is either one or the other.
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@Mopac
You are so confused in your definitions that you wouldn't know evil if it stared you in the face. I love both good and bad... i hate evil. Evil is neither darkness or light... it the absence of almost everything. Therefore, there is nothing about evil i like other than it is necessary to get rid of evil, but that's about it. Everything else about light and darkness i love. I love how my anger fuels me, i love how my hate makes me better, i love learning how to love from my jealousy, i love how my envy makes me conquer any obstacle. Without these emotions i wouldn't be who i am bc i'm in almost absolute control of them... of course i can get better. But i would never want them erased... you kidding me. You're delusional if you think having only light emotions is heaven... at least for me. You do you if that's what you like. Go to your heaven... i have nothing against that, but don't expect me to think that's heaven bc to me it's not.
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@ludofl3x
Here's another paradox for you... where would someone like me go if i believe in Christianity? Hell is obviously hell... but so is heaven to me. I think wiping my mind, wiping my negative emotions / darkness, and living eternally is hell. I'm scared to death if that is what happens in the afterlife. If i believe in Christianity... it's either i go to an obvious hell, or a hell with a smile. So where do i go?
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@DBlaze
I think it's only the far left that believes in late term abortions. My personal opinion is that abortions shouldn't be done at the point the baby has brain activity. That's how i define death of a human so it is logical to make that also the point where life begins. I think a lot of liberals agree with my version. However, i think brain activity starts at first trimester (12 weeks or so) so i think the cutoff should be there... some others think it's when the spine is connected to the brain activity which is second trimester (where it can feel pain). I don't know which one is more popular, however i think the more reasonable people can be convinced of my view. But, other than that... i think it's a low number of people on the left that believe in late term abortions or at least the minority. Which people i believe are clearly wrong. But also... i think it's clearly wrong not to allow abortion for a variety of reasons. I think the parties should work together and comprise to bring it down to at least 12 or 14 weeks.
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@DBlaze
Yeah i'm sure it'll hurt him in that regard... it's sad that it will. Bc if he can't be redeemed then who can? There has to be a redemption standard for people bc this is just getting ridiculous. And, i think it's getting ridiculous to the detriment of the left. Liberals will continue to loss as long as most the country views them as the SJW "i will ruin your life for something you did at 17" type people. A lot of people don't like this sort of mentality... it seems the right is mainly the ones that dislike it... but there are many people on the left that aren't far left and dislike it too. Imagine, who are the people that voted for Obama twice that voted for Trump... these are the people that aren't putting up with the lefts current bullshit. If they can't fix it... Trump is guaranteed another win. I'm centrist so i'm really interested in both sides and it helps me clearly see each's flaws. The left could have a very powerful message if they didn't eat themselves so much. All i know is whoever has the more populist message will win... the left is suppose to have that message down more so... but with this SJW crap, they will go nowhere.
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