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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Not at all. I read it as a metaphor/simile. Literally, you're right.. that's not true at all. Figuratively, i don't disagree.
Edit: I shouldn't say "at all" though bc some elements of it is true literally, but as a whole... i do not agree in a literal sense.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I thought it was well said too. What did you find wrong with it?
If it's the free stuff thing... Using the word getting "Free stuff" isn't really what i get from this specific liberal concern. I think every person deserves freedom and the only way you can truly be free is if 1) you are trying; 2) if so, you should at least be able to live reasonably. At this point in our world, i think the people that "make it" are taking too much. I know the right says it's stealing since they deserve it (which i would argue). But it is also stealing from the people and their workers since without us they wouldn't have power, and without us they wouldn't have wealth. So it's stealing from both sides. From there the way i weigh it is which is worse. Take from the CEO so he makes a little less or don't and so what if the worker can't buy milk since he had to go to the doctor? Which is worse... i think stealing from the people is worse therefore i agree with the left on the income inequality stuff.
However, i don't agree with the college stuff... health care we need to do something but just make it free across the board i don't agree with.. so i think income stuff might be our only disagreement.
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@DBlaze
I don't know if you said this on accident in the heat of the moment to sound agreeable, but his career should go through the roof for what he did. There should be more people like him. Not only did he willingly tell his story, he said he was wrong, got professional help, and grew. If only more people in society could do that this world just might be less shitty. He has my highest respect for what he did... unless of course, he has some nefarious reason why he did it to gain popularity and exposure... you never know with these people these days... but, he seemed sincere in his motivations to do this.This will probably hurt his career, and it should
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@coal
You probably heard it from like... idk... some priest or firebrand minister or something.
Yes i did here it from most Christians. And that is the thing, not the nuances. You may be right about the nuances, and i agree there are different levels of suicide and that even the Christians telling me this would agree shouldn't deserve hell, but... if we only look at a suicide which is merely a rage quite of life, most Christians would advertise that is hell punishable. Plus, if we add in knowing the truth... i'm sure most priest would teach to not commit suicide bc knowing is a gift or something and throwing it away is punishable. In any case, that is nothing like my belief which is what i'm trying to say. There really is no punishment as i see it, so people can kill themselves for whatever reason. So, if we are measuring how many people would kill themselves if they knew either my truth or Christian truth... i think there would be a lot more suicides on my end and not Christians. Sure, some of them might see it as you do and still commit suicide... but i think the vast majority are under the impression it is hell punishable therefore wouldn't kill themselves. Whether they are interpreting it right or wrong doesn't matter, it's still widely held that suicide is a no no in Christian circles.
I don't buy any of that, but for reasons that would probably be highly unsatisfying to you.
Well, it's my belief. I already understand you don't buy it since you're Christian. But that doesn't make me any less wrong. I'm quite confident you don't know what will happen in death. Plus, i can justify all of my belief systems. I didn't just choose to believe what i do willy nilly. I have reasons. You can tell me your reasons for not finding it logical? I am curious. I've never heard a sufficient enough reason to doubt this is one of the most logical platforms (i do believe in some others). When i say "believe" it might throw you off since i'm agnostic. What i mean by 'i believe something' is that 'i highly suspect' it. Pantheistic type of platforms are currently among the most logical to me... which is this one i shared.
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@coal
It's very interesting you brought up the idea of mass suicides. I actually use that idea for a lot of reasons in what i believe. But to address it from your beliefs point of view.... i don't think, even if we knew heaven is great, Christians would kill themselves. Bc if they do, they aren't going to heaven... they would be going to hell. So i don't think it is a factor in Christianity.
However, with my belief... it is a huge factor for 2 reasons. One, death is only a reset. You become your higher self and from there you manifest into another mortal experience. So, with some caveats, suicide wouldn't throw you into a hell. It will just stop your life here and you'll start a new life. And, if my other ideas are right, than not only will you become immortal, but in your immortal higher self, you can decide to have whatever experience you can imagine for your next life. There is caveats such as your state of mind at death, how conscious you are of this ability, etc. But if all goes right, death by any means is heaven. That's why it's so important for the second factor. If we had proof of my belief... i most definitely believe there will be a mass suicide event... which is why i think it's so brilliant there can't be proof "at this point in human history." That is also important bc my belief makes a prediction which i see is coming true. We cannot know at this point in history bc life isn't that good for the majority in the face of basically becoming a god that people wouldn't just kill themselves. However, i think, in the future when life is so good that we can know... we will probably have proof of this platform at that point bc then we can handle it without killing ourselves. And coincidentally, i think the future where this is possible is when we have fully integrated with machines and can download ourselves into whatever simulation we can think of... which is interesting bc we will basically create what we are already doing here. I think finding out this spiritual truth will come when we have the knowledge to create and download consciousness. Only at that time can we know what we really are without a mass suicide event. It has to be unproven until then.
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@coal
More or less in the same way.
I have a paradox in regards to the idea of heaven i'm curious what your opinions would be. For me personally, paradise as described by most Christians i ask scares the crap out of me. I would label it a hell with a smile. This is bc i have experienced what it would be like to be infinite. Therefore, i understand to a certain degree if i am eternal in any kind of place without the reset of death i would go mad. This is made worse if certain emotions are taken away such as fear, hate, jealousy, envy. I have learned to accept and love these darker emotions and i would not want them taken away from me for they are a large part of who i am. But mainly, i am scared to death of being infinite. I see death as a beautiful thing. Of course sad, but beautiful in what it is. So i often times think heaven would be hell as described by those that say being eternal and having specific emotions taken away is a part of the deal. What do you think? Is the Bible clear enough to construe you will be eternal and have your darker emotions erased?
Not sure what you mean by that. No Christian denomination maintains a "submit or die" mentality. That's Islam.
You're right that wasn't clear. I should have said submit or hell. That's what i meant. It's the if you don't join my club you will burn for eternity type of mentality i feel is man-made. I believe it is sufficient to read the Bible and find the love in it. Find the good and apply it to your life and live life well. I think if there is judgment at all... it will be off your heart, not whether or not you submit to a religion.
That is probably the most interesting question you've asked so far, and the answer to that question obviates the absurdity of strictly literal interpretations of Biblical texts, and the generally fundamentalist iterations of Christianity who base their so called theology on such literal interpretations.
Thank you, and very interesting answer. I am taken the meaning that you do believe humans have negatively influenced the religion which is very logical. People tend to forget that humans enjoyed watching other humans die, they enjoyed torturing and watching humans be tortured. And, we haven't really even got that much better. It is very unlikely that humans wouldn't use a faith for their own greed and power given how profound a belief is to a person. I personally wonder if even certain things are truly as people say the Bible writes including homosexuality. The way i read the Bible is that sexual immorality is a no no. But i don't think this specifically means homosexuals are sinning just for falling in love with the same sex. I feel if it becomes immoral, then it's in the wrong, but as long as it's done with love... i don't think god would have a problem again going back to god reading your heart. Of course i'm translating a lot myself, but i think it follows logically if we are thinking of a good god.
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@coal
As far as orthodox Christianity is concerned; there are at least 10 recognized denominations I know of, and there may be more.
Do Orthodox Christians define "heaven/paradise" the same as Protestant Christians? Or, is it different.
The implications of not having faith are a long and complicated subject, that, even if I was to answer, I am reasonably sure you wouldn't find the answer satisfactory. It is enough now to say that we do not know the limits of God's mercy.
That's actually fair and i highly respect that kind of view. I personally doubt a good god would punish those that he knows are naturally curious. I think the 'submit or die' type mentality is man-made. Which brings me to my next question. How confident are you that humans haven't corrupted the Bible... little, some, or greatly?
As to your question of whether a person has "evidence" of their belief, that's fine... but it's not provable or verifiable.
It is not provable, correct. But i see it as something hard to ignore. I believe what i have evidence for, especially since i've found a way where it doesn't affect what you believe or anyone for that matter. It allows for all beliefs. But this kinda goes back to the previous question. Why would a good god punish someone that has found comfort in a belief that makes sense to them and adds positively to their journey on earth. That element has never made sense to me when i talk to Christians with a submit mentality, and it is one of the few reasons i choose to say i don't believe it. But, that doesn't mean i don't believe god could possibly exist. I actually think it's a high probability. I just feel humans have most definitely tainted all religions with their fallibility. I actually have no doubt. Humans are really poisonous creatures.
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@coal
Faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, sent by the Father to bear the cost of human transgression; that he was crucified, died, was buried, descended into Hell, overcame death, returned from the grave, and then ascended into heaven; that now, the Holy Spirit lives on, to guide humanity in the path of righteousness.
What if one just respects Jesus' life and story, and would shake his hand in Heaven (and even tries to live like Jesus)...but just isn't sure if he was real. Is that enough?
That's not something you can "rationally" believe, though. All faith is irrational, because it is by definition belief in the absence of verifiable evidence. That's a large part of why faith matters.
What if a person does have evidence of their belief? Maybe not verifiable objective evidence, but sufficient anecdotal evidence?
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@thett3
I have a BA in Business Administration with a concentration in Marketing with a Sociology minor. Lastly, i have a legal studies/paralegal certification and certificate.
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@Mopac
I really don't want to go through this again. I have already asked my questions you can stroll back and check out. My most important question is that paradise is a paradox as described by the Bible to someone like me. If you want to attempt to answer that, you can at anytime.
I'm talking to Coal now. He is a protestant Christian. What would you say is the difference bw protestant and orthodox?
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@coal
Only by faith in what? Can you be a person that's just spiritual but agnostic in the sense of being sure of any platform? I am also talking to Mopac about Orthodoxy, he says they are right bc they have preserved the originality of the Bible and traditions. Why wouldn't that be more logical than a version that is any different than keeping to the original?
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@RationalMadman
Well then, that should be an added mandatory review for professional debates... maybe they get priority over other reported votes, or there can be additional vote mods specifically for the Pro-Dees.
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@RationalMadman
I've never debated here so that is a guess on your part. Did you mean i don't know how to vote? Bc i was aware of that fact... i just thought i could get away with it since it was a clear tie bw the other arguments. But i did mention to the debaters i had little time so my vote could not have been sufficient. I was well aware of that. I was just hoping no one reported it. So your assumptions are wrong all around.
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@coal
What is a protestant Christian and/or, more accurately, what makes it different than other Christians?
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@RationalMadman
Well, a vote of mine was removed for lack of a good RFD. And, i actually did a decent job in explaining my vote. What i did wrong was only address one of the arguments. My reason was bc the rest were a tie in my opinion, so i didn't think it was necessary to bring it up.. but i guess i had to bring it up. It was an accurate vote otherwise. So... in my anecdotal experience, i'm under the impression it is enforced.
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@coal
Well, an example was made out of him and i really don't have an opinion. Just watching the guy talk i could tell he's either a POS, or corrupt in some way. He just looked like a shady person. But then again, i wonder how many politicians that are higher up in the food chain are just as corrupt or even more. I wonder what it would take to get them in trouble. I tend to not trust politicians in general. I think it takes a particularly narcissistic type of human to want such a position of power and control. So, i would guess there are a lot of corrupt people in politics. Roger Stone just being one they possibly all disliked. However, it does raise my curiosity in the sense of... what was he doing that turned the rest against him. Bc i know he was vocal in calling out corruption on others.
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@DebateArt.com
As long as voters stay the same... it would be a good idea. People can already stipulate if they don't want certain people to vote and a lack of a good RFD will remove a vote, so i don't see any reason to not allow anyone to vote as long as they meet that criteria. The only other thing you can add to the votes, maybe, is that if the debater see's a bias vote or a grudge vote and can make their case why it is... then you can have mod action on that vote.
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@coal
I only read the first two pages and this last page to make sure you are still answer, so i don't know if anyone has asked you this yet... but what are your spiritual / religious beliefs and why?
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@3RU7AL
This is at least from the Black Israeli side. I've heard all videos except for the main ones, show these kids just hanging out and them being the ones provoked. It's really weird though. This is the only full video i can find. I wonder if the media worked with Youtube to pull down the other videos that showed they weren't in the wrong. It's really crazy, bc it seems that way. Any other video that shows they aren't at fault i can't find except for this one which also shows they weren't doing anything but standing there.
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@Castin
Lol ... tell Mike to make a thumbs up for the forums... this was funny. I love have people with superiority complexes think everything should be their way or the highway. I mean, i most definitely have a superiority complex too... but i know how to shut it off at least, so i can't remember ever being guilty of thinking everyone on the forums are beneath me and should follow my rules.I think you need to stop expecting every thread on an internet forum to be a Stanford dissertation and stop complaining when that doesn't happen
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@Castin
He got suspended. But he eventually came back i think, either to the middle school or high school... i can't remember.
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@Mopac
I'm not looking to dismiss anything. I dismiss it bc it's illogical as a viable spiritual platform. Other than that, i'm sure it has some good teachings. My favorite teaching is the one about talents. The teachings have nothing to do with my decision... not being able to answer the important questions i asked you does.Well, none of that describes Orthodoxy or Orthodox Spirituality though it seems that is what you would like Orthodoxy to be so that you can dismiss it.
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@Mopac
I'm sorry but all this sounds like don't question, don't think, just blindly follow. That's not an attractive platform and very cult like. A sign of cult like behavior is domination and monopoly of truth.So Orthodox Spirituality is an alctive thing. It isn't a clever philosophy that seems satisfying to the intellect but wholly useless in other respects.
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@Castin
Adults in your childhood who give you a hard time, like an asshole teacher who gets off on intimidating students, know you won't beat them up. The consequences would be too severe. The power they hold over kids is psychological, not just physical. So yep I'd say a non-aggro tactic would be pretty handy.
Depends which grade we are talking about. I remember a gym teacher in middle school getting the crap beat out of him bc he was talking shit on some kid saying 'you won't hit me...' Well, the kid hit him pretty damn hard. I mean, i'm exaggerating bc the teacher won... but i bet his face hurt bc he couldn't hit the kid back.
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@Mopac
And so you don't really know our God, because you treat it as a created thing. We are not pagans. Pagans worship created things.
Metaphysically... i favor a pantheistic type of platform. I've told you that. That's not a created platform. I believe everything is what you call "God." An infinite consciousness. At least spiritually... i think that platform is most logical. Your platform is not the only one there is. I just don't see why it's more logical than what i've searched and found to be more probable.
Edit: I should add... all the questions i've asked you that you have had trouble with answering... this platform answers.
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@Mopac
I didn't say just allegorical
Well, at that point... i just don't believe the impossible stories happened. I just don't.
But I will also say this, if you are anti-Christian, you are warring against The Truth
I would say most are warring against Christian"s" and less so Christianity. When it comes to the religion itself, i don't hate it or love it. I just don't think it's a valid belief to have. But there is no ill will towards it per se... it's more towards humans that have twisted it for their own gains. Those are the people i hate/warring against. I can read the entire Bible by myself and find very little to no reason to dislike it. So, in my interpretation of the Bible i have no ill will towards it and actually respect it... I personally think that is enough. Once a god demands for more... i find said god to be a petty god not worth any respect... but then again, under my interpretation, that isn't how god is... that god is a man-made god that needs people to kneel.
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@Mopac
I'm okay with that way of looking at it. But that isn't how most Christian's believe. Noah's ark happened. That's what i am use to hearing. But if Orthodoxy believes these stories are allegorical and not literal... i can respect that. But then, we fall back to my other questions. And, additional stuff like the POE, how a creator guy is illogical over a pantheistic god, etc. Or, if i am sticking to the Bible... that i "have to believe in Christianity" to be saved. Actually, i'll ask that question... Do i have to say i'm Christian in order to be saved? Basically, will agnostics not be saved?Every story in the bible is allegorical.
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@Mopac
Yet, here I am, ready to answer questions. It would be easier if you didn't presume to know anything.
I have no other questions other some additional that i'm sure you can't answer the same as the other questions. Beyond that i don't care, i really don't have questions. I mean, there is a lot i probably agree with. There is morals and stories that teach you about life. I have no problem there, so i have no questions. But, to take Christianity serious as a belief that can explain my afterlife, i don't buy it one bit. It isn't necessary, nor is it the final answer. To learn from it, to read it's history, etc. i have no problem there... so i have no questions there. I asked you my questions, and you can't answer them. Those are the questions that will qualify Christianity as a necessary belief for me.
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@Mopac
It's sad you believe in something where it teaches not to love yourself. Yet another man-made element of your faith. The powerful teaching the weak they need them. Yea... okay. Stay on your knees for all i care.You openly admit to placing your perversions as an idol before the truth and that you love your darkness.
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@Mopac
Well, because you are such a know-it-all, you won't learn anything.Isn't that how it always is?
That makes no sense... no, it's only how it is in this discussion. Something i've considered the other sides arguments many times, but have come to find them lacking. I've given you a chance too... and off of your answers so far, i'm still not convinced Christianity isn't just another fallible man-made religion.
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@Castin
Oh i didn't need a creepy stare down when i was his age... adults legit feared me considering i could beat up most of them. The creepy stare thing could have come in handy for when i didn't want to go aggro i guess. He did do it pretty well. My half smiles look horrible... i'm envies of that beauty.
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@Mopac
A better question would be to ask what it is we use scripture for.
So you'd rather me ask you what you want me to ask you? You'd rather not answer what you know is illogical. That's all you do in every question i've asked. You're not here to answer questions... you're here to pretend you're better than other Christians. I'm going to presume the answers to all those questions are yes... Beyond that, why should i care? I haven't just willy nilly 'made up my mind' as you keep asserting. It's illogical on many front as i'm showing you by asking the questions to which are my reasons in not believing, therefore, i have put it aside as a truth... bc it's not. It's another man-made religion. Primitive humans make up such lies. Tell a person you parted the sea today and you'll end up in a mental ward. Say it thousands of years ago... you're a celebrity. How can you not see that's man-made...
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@Analgesic.Spectre
2 cases every year for 10 years... or only 2 cases in 10 years...? that's a bit confusing wording. I fucking hate spiders btw... i have true arachnophobia. I say "true" bc most people just say they do bc they're scared of it... but, scared isn't the right word for me... it would be a more extreme terrified. It's all bc of a childhood story... here i'll tell you it's kinda funny.
English is my second language so when i was a kid i didn't understand many of my teachers in the lower grades. I was in 1st or 2nd or 3rd grade (can't remember). The teacher asked kids to bring in a pet if they can. However, i only heard "your homework assignment is to bring a pet." Not wanting to get points off my grade, i thought i had to bring a pet, but i didn't have one. So i walked outside thinking i might be able to catch a rabbit or something. But when i went outside i looked at the plant next to the door and saw a really black spider. It looked different, bigger, than what i normally saw. So i grabbed a stick and pushed it around. I saw on its stomach it had a red hourglass. A black widow that i had no idea i was playing with. But i liked the color and how it looked so i thought i'd catch it and take it to class as my pet.
I grabbed a water bottle and caught it. I threw some grass and sticks in with it, and i also caught a daddy long leg so they can look cool together. The next day, the daddy long leg was drowned in a pool of liquid. I thought "how did that happen" not knowing i have a deadly spider on my hand. So, in class the teacher went around and had the kids go up and show their pets. When it got to me she asked "Did you bring a pet." I said "yep' and showed her the bottle. She asked what is that... i said a spider. She got nervous and quickly asked where did you get it... i said i found it. Then she looked at the bottle and screamed... "that's a black widow that's a black widow" ... as she screamed... literally everyone else in the class started screaming. She said take that outside... i got offended for some reason lol. I said, "this is my pet." So she screamed fine you can keep it just take it out.
So, later on i was kinda sad and walking to the bus. As i was getting on the bus, the driver said... "what is that in your hand" ... i said, "my pet black widow." He screamed "take that off my bus." This time i was not only offended but mad. So i opened the bottle and flung the spider out of the bus door from the bottle... when i did that, everyone on the bus started screaming.
And yep, that is probably what did it...
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@Mopac
you are wholly ignorant of what Orthodoxy is
I can't pretend i'm not... but i am curious what made you say that. Is it that Noah's ark isn't how i said it was? While we're there... did Jesus walk on water? Did Moses part the sea? Did god have a bear kill kids bc they made fun of a bald guy? I know these, and i'm sure you know i can bring up more, as literal. Does Orthodoxy say these events, and/or all the impossible events, are metaphor, allegory... not literal?
The Ultimate Reality is God
Pantheists say that all the time. And actually, some very logical philosophical ideas can be construed as this "i.e. an infinite consciousness." However, when you label this god as "Christian" ... then, it comes with all the other baggage. So since you want questions, i will start questioning the text itself with the above questions.
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@Mopac
I find it interesting how you have picked this one Christian belief to be right. Bc you know... there are a lot of other Christian's that think you're wrong. Even JW's say their belief is the most original since they go off the text only. That to me raises red flags, but for you... makes you believe even more. I wish i could show you that your perception of reality is just that... one other perception. Yet you are so convinced you're right... and not even that you're right... you are saying Orthodox Christians are right and i'm willing to follow. Until you wake up to this perception that is heavily man-made, you just won't see it. If you don't, then your perception will just suck you in more and more until you convince yourself of things like one man made a huge boat and all the animals got on that boat and survived while the world flooded are right. That's just another level of self-deception that i just can't get into.
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@Mopac
If you have questions about Orthodoxy, that is what this topic is for. I will do my best to tell you what the church teaches.You don't have to believe it.
If you can't answer those two other questions, i don't have any other questions about your faith since i still maintain it's man-made and false. I find it to be very fruitless and quite insane on my part to argue something i clearly see as false with someone that just doesn't see it. It's like arguing with a flat-earther. I'm sure there is nothing i can question or say that you won't have some kind of answer for... so i ask the questions that i know you don't have an answer for; therefore, the day i will take your religion and other religions seriously, is when they can answer my qualifier questions. It's different for different faiths, but for the Abrahamic religions those are the main questions... unanswered, we will just have to agree to disagree.
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@Castin
The poor kid didn't look creepy, he looked creeped out and awkward as hell. People like the Indian guy are the creeps in my book. Randomly walking up to people and chanting in their face. God, i freaking hate people like him. Antifa, creepy old Indian guy, sjw's... they are the creeps. That kid was actually cool as hell considering. I would have probably grabbed his drum stick and walked away with it.
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@Mopac
You couldn't describe yourself any better. I know how to put my beliefs aside and say i don't know... an addict can't.Everything else becomes the justifications of an addict.
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@Mopac
The topic is consistent with the OP and questions i'm asking you. Unless, the Orthodox version of paradise is different than his... in which that would add even more elements against Christianity in general... you guys can't even believe in each other lol.
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@Mopac
I told you i don't care about arguing text and what it is... i can google all day contradictions and errors and you can likely give excuses all day or interpret it your own way. I already know that is a fruitless endeavor; therefore, i'm asking my most important questions. Why should i believe in your religion when it's promising me hell? Why should i believe your religion is infallible when i know fallible humans wrote it?
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@Tradesecret
Because you are human. Humans cannot imagine things from a divine perspective because they are not divine. Duh! You have never experienced immortality or eternality. I think death is an unwanted intrusion into life. Death makes life dead. It is not beautiful. Death brings grief - and yes it certainly drives home what we can miss out on, but it does not make it better. I cant love better just because I am dead- or someone else is dead. What a bizarre thing to think. Your notion of love is obviously not the same as I understand. Your analogy is unhelpful because it is so flawed. Why would I care if another movie existed if I had only ever seen one movie and only one existed. I would need to know that another existed for me to be mildly interested. I am quite happy to have a kiss from my wife every night of my life for my entire life - and more - without having to experience the kiss of another woman. It is my choice to do this. I am quite content worshiping ONE GOD as well.
First of all, you personally do know one other "movie" exists... paradise and earth (mortality) and that fact will likely drive you insane being infinitely stuck in one place. Who knows though, people with 'special' minds maybe could withstand it (i doubt it)... 100% not me however. In any case, all you are actually doing is making about you. You can't imagine it, so i can't imagine it. I haven't experienced it bc you haven't experienced it. You know nothing else exists, therefore nothing else exists. You want it to be about your god bc you don't think any other realities exist. You are afraid of death therefore no one can love it bc you hate it. Instead of answering my concerns you laugh at them bc they aren't important bc it isn't important to you. And you are asking me to believe something where i am stuck in an eternity with people like you... lol you freaking think that's paradise. The rest of your response is gibberish and only attempts to portray that something is wrong with me and not your cherished Bible... which is typical of a Christian and no surprise. Instead of thinking of a creative response, or just saying you don't know, you think you 100% not only know i'm wrong, you also know everything i've thought and experienced. You don't have any answers bc the Bible like any other man-made creation has limitations and is written thousands of years ago when these concerns were nearly nonexistent. This my friends is the delusion of Christians that thinks the world revolves around them and their god.
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@janesix
I usually get 120 for my iq give or take... gotten 138 before (actually the last one i did). I felt like bragging. Anyways, you're just having one of those days huh? I do think agnostics are better than atheists... but just like everyone, not all atheists are bad.
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@disgusted
What's funnier than dead baby Jesus? Dead baby Jesus in a clown costume :)
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@Tradesecret
1. living without darkness? Do you mean the darkness of emotions like hate and jealousy and envy? You are correct - you would not recognise yourself without these things. I am not sure what this has got to do with heaven though or why it then becomes like Hell?
Yes i am talking about my hate, fear, jealousy, manipulation, anger, etc. It becomes hell if those emotions are taken away from me. I don't want them erased or gone. They make me who i am. And, i like using them against others sometimes.
2. undying and eternal. I discussed this briefly above. I think humans have no idea what eternality is like and every attempt to make it about undying and immortality is unhelpful. I agree that I don't understand what it is like - but neither do you. you seem confused - how can knowing there is anything after death give you hope and yet the idea of no off switch scare you? I think that life - if that is the correct term in heaven is unlike anything we understand here. It is not a matter of an off switch - because that is a mortal term. Death is an unwelcome intrusion into our life. It does not make life beautiful.
How do you know what i can and cannot imagine? I very well can imagine it, i've experienced it, and it is my worst nightmare to be eternal. You are saying a lot of things "you" are either afraid of or don't find torturous. And never said heaven is hell for you... obviously it's not. But yes, i think death makes this life beautiful. Without death we wouldn't know true anything. You may learn love sure, but love is taken to another level when you know you can loss it. Death is the most beautiful creation any higher intelligence could create. Here, let me paint a little analogy for you so you can see how i imagine it bc maybe you truly can't imagine it... I'll do the more extreme version but if you get it you can imagine the others too. Say you watch a movie and this movie is the best movie you've ever seen. Now, imagine i told you... you are not allowed to watch any other movie. Furthermore, i tell you this is the only entertainment you are allowed for the rest of your life. After how many times of watching that movie would it turn to hell? Now lets say it doesn't even have to be your only entertainment which is the most extreme version. Let's say you can have other entertainment but the only movie you are allowed to watch is this movie. You can't watch any other movie. How many times can you watch it... sure you might say you'll watch it once every year so you can still enjoy it, but times infinity into that... at what point would the movie become hell for you? That's what death is, turning that movie off and putting in a damn new show. It's beautiful and i'm sad you can't see it.
3. so you want no restrictions? and you would become bored, is that it? Jesus indicated that there wont be marriage in heaven anyway - so infidelity is not an issue. You seem to have a warped idea of heaven - it is not just an extension of earth.
So am i allowed to hook up with different chicks in heaven or not? If i can, then we can take this off the list. And, what i know of heaven is what Christian priests throughout the years have told me. But who knows, i might like your version. And you better believe i'm comparing it to things i love. Bc those are things i have fallen in love with bc of life.
4. How do you know everyone is nice? And what is wrong with sunday worship? For me it is the highlight of my week. Yet, I don't think the bible gives us that kind of description anyway. there is going to be a lot of things to keep on doing. Variety and creativity will be unbounded - and yet Heaven is not going to be an entertainment cruise ship - or a retirement home. IT is not Disney land.
Again i don't care what you like or don't like. This is about "me." You are asking me to consider worshiping something for the rest of my life. I have to make sure... i'm not worshiping going to hell. You can go to heaven for all i care... I just know that isn't the only place. Sunday worship is boring and burdensome... i get nothing positive from it. I would rather listen to a radio preacher if anything. Also, i'm not talking about it being a theme park. Just normal everyday what it is... sounds torturous. Lastly, so you are saying not everyone is nice? I.e. can i troll people, can i manipulate people, can i hate people, can i just dislike some people, etc. in heaven? If you say yes, i will also reconsider taking that off my torture list.
5. it seems that you misunderstand the bible. and I guess that is not surprising. I agree that if you want those things - then heaven really would be Hell for you. Heaven is all about God - it is not about you. Yet, the alternatives are not going to give you those things either. Hell wont. So not only do you not get the things you desire - but you get tortured forever as well. And if there is no god - then you get death - an endless dismal darkness - with no escape - nothingness - no one remembering you. So, I find your comment about an after life - confusing as well as dismal.
What does heaven being about god have anything to do with the implications that will effect me? Bc it's me that will have to live it... unless i become god which is a different story and more on the lines of logical spiritual platform. And... you know the only other alternatives how? So again, what you are asking me to believe is hell all around. I hear you, and i hear what afterlife beliefs your telling me, none of them is "paradise" to me. So where does that leave me? Well, guess what... there are other spiritual beliefs that fix this paradox. So why in the world wouldn't i believe something that gives me paradise but live for something that will give me hell? All i'm saying is... that is a paradox for your heaven idea which is one of many reasons religion is so clearly man-made. Humans are fallible and especially humans thousands of years ago wouldn't have even considered paradise, as you describe it, being anything but paradise for them.
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@Mopac
and you don't get to be a bishop if you are chasing after filthy lucre!
I didn't even read the article but i just googled "Orthodox bishop caught" ... and a bunch of stuff came up and that's the first on my page. See, we are talking about humans. Humans are pretty crap animals. The worst thing is... some of the worst of humankind.. psychopaths and such, are really good at manipulating and getting to the top.
They aren't really supposed to lord authority over people.
They may not suppose to, but they are filthy human... and this attribute is the most popular. I would say at least 50%, and i'm sure i'm low-ballin, of any Orthodox person loves to lord over people.
Our priests are not rich
I highly doubt this is true "in general." Again... it may be that your priest aren't "suppose" to be rich... but i highly doubt it's true that they aren't. Btw, is the pope Orthodox? I mean, he may not have the bank account, but he lives in a freaking castle. Just a joke, but in general ... humans are greedy Orthodox or not.
Even if there are corrupt laymen, corrupt priests, corrupt bishops, these bad ones cannot corrupt the whole church because we take Holy Tradition very seriously.
Now... really, in regards to Orthodox belief holding their tradition and making it hard to corrupt it... i like your arguments bc they are fair. I mean, it makes sense that a belief that prides themselves to be the original and to hold on to that throughout the years will make it harder to corrupt it. But i still am not convinced it's hasn't been "at some point" corrupted or at the very least, used in a way to gain power and greed.
But in any case, you gave me a good argument for why you don't think it is, and all i can do is assert it is... i can't really provide proof and i don't think you can prove otherwise. But really now, all of this comes down to the text itself. The text itself to me is corrupted bc humans wrote the Bible. Furthermore, humans picked which parts to keep in the Bible. And certain ignorance of the world today has me to believe the text itself is corrupted and fallible. Especially things like the homosexual or any of the sexual stuff in the Bible. That just 1) seems like what a straight guy would write. And 2) having only one wife was an important rule to make. I imagine without this tradition, all the women were either going to the richest, strongest, best looking guys. Without this assertion that you should be with one person, a lot of guys would be left without women. So the text itself sounds like human mumbo jumbo.
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@RationalMadman
I'll watch it later. I won't say everything TYT does is bad... i've seen some good content. They are guilty of deceptive crap however. They are by far not what i would label as the best progressive network. In many ways you could say they are the best radical left channel. I'm just being honest. Don't let them pull the wool over your eyes, at least consider what i'm saying and research it for yourself. No matter how much you might hate Rogan or even his guest in that video.. what they were saying is right and in my opinion nicer than it should have been. Cenk was an ignorant little kid in his interview with Sam Harris ... i watched it for myself and made that conclusion. Not off Rogan's video.
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@Tradesecret
1) god supposedly takes away all my darkness... which my darker emotions i've fallen in love with. I don't know who i would be without my darkness. 2) I will be undying and eternal. If you think being alive as an immortal would be heaven... all i can say is you just can't imagine it. Death is what makes life beautiful. Knowing there could be anything possible after death is what gives me hope. Without it, i would eventually go mad. Actually, being alive for eternity with no off switch scares the heck out of me the most. 3) if i find one love, i'll have to be with one women for the rest of eternity. 4) Everyone is nice all the time, everyone is loving all the time, everyone worships like everyday is Sunday church... that also sounds like a horror movie to me. 5) A lot of things i love to do, sleep with more than one partner, listen to music that sings about cannibalism, torment, death and chaos... all these things and some more i love... will be taken away from me. So not only will who i am be taken away from me, i have to put up with that and the implications for eternity. That my friend is hell but instead of fire and brimstone... it's hell but sunny.And pray tell, what about Heaven is to be likened to Hell?
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@Mopac
The Orthodox Church has been teaching the same thing for 2000 years. In fact, one of the things that has worked really well in terms of the reconciliation of Orthodox and many non-chlacedonian churches is that even after over 1500 years we still pretty much teach the same thing. The point of schism is pretty much understood as different ways of explaining the same thing.One of the reasons I am orthodox to begin with has to do with how the orthodox church matches the earliest descriptions of how Christians did things.
Okay now... finally, that was a reasonable response. I've heard this before however, and "personally," i still find it lacking in part due to Disgusted's question in part due to even the Catholic church itself. But first i say this is a reasonable response bc i understand for "you" how this logic can work. It isn't just blindly following... but then again, this has another problem of ignoring and putting too much trust into the Church.
So, i find it lacking bc what my concern with religion is the people that not only wrote, but the high priest that picked which stories to keep and which not to. I don't know if the latter applies to Orthodox since i don't know these specifics, but i would guess it went through that process. So, there have been a lot of mere humans piecing these things together. So not only do you have to trust the Orthodox church never had a person that would corrupt the church for his own game, you have to also trust every person that wrote and arranged the Bible did so without corruption. Both together... i don't trust humans at all... so for "me" i'm still not convinced. But i also can't tell you that you're wrong so if you think every human associated with the Orthodox church was never corrupted... then that's on you. Unless you can prove to me you are right, i can't concede my view. That is the furthest i've gotten on this question. There have just been too many years of people abusing the Church for their own gain for me to believe it's perfect in and of itself.
So, i would say this one is a stalemate now and i'm okay with your response but don't agree. Unless you know something i don't know on this question, now all that's left is making sense of my paradise paradox.
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@RationalMadman
Rogan has a low IQ lmao. Okay.. You do you man.
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