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Claim, or at least partly claim. Who or what are you?
And why would Croc make RM claim in post 277?
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Ok just caught up with this. There is a very interesting question to ask here, which is: Why did Croc claim with seemingly no pressure whatsoever? If Croc is town, then he would only be exposing himself to the mafia and would most likely get NK'd tonight. Judging by Croc not wanting to reveal his role, Ani is probably a power role character, which means the last thing you'd want to do is claim out of the blue with no pressure whatsoever. Even if this isn't the case and Ani is a vanilla character, claiming DP1 would only help mafia (as it would allow mafia to narrow down the list of power roles).
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Problem is, I don't know if conservatives will ever accept these.
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@RationalMadman
They don't. Read what I said after clarifying that I don't townread speedrace. I am reading him as town based on my scumread on Oromagi and situations (and wanted to make that clear, in the sense that I am not townreading Speedrace).
Ok, got it.
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@Speedrace
I NEVER pushed for your claim, all I said was "I'm guessing your Monty." And you said that it implies I know the connections Pie uses?? What?? It was a guess because I've seen the show, plus Monty is literally the most obvious.
And I did it because I think Monty makes way more sense and Alex would make way more sense as godfatherI don't *know* anything, Monty was simply the obvious choice for me for Miller.
But here's the thing: Why would you "guess" my character for me?
You then proceeded to offer up your character of your own will, you trying to push that as being scummy makes me suspect you
If I was scum making a fake claim, then I would've been like "yeah, I'm Monty" because you would've already believed it.
Unless you suggested the character as a counterclaim trap.
I didn't *demand* your justification. I politely asked.
Politely demanded. Let's go with that.
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@RationalMadman
I believe speedrace is town
This is a townread
I do not 'townread' Speedrace
I just want to clarify this RM. These two statements seem directly contradictory.
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@RationalMadman
What are your thoughts on Oromagi and me?
Right now, I have a lean town read on you, given the fact that you have been actively participating, making deductions, and creating town and scum reads of your own. For Oro, I currently have a null/slightly scum read on him, given that he seems to be breadcrumbing at places (by breadcrumbing I mean giving just enough info to seem helpful, but not really providing too much.
Is he right to scumread me or what?
As you said, he is a very literal player, and it's certainly plausible that it could be the case for role-character links as well.
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@oromagi
Have your reads changed at all from last time, or do you still see Supa, Warren, and LC as the most scummy?
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@BearMan
When I claimed my role, he instantly said that I was a particular character. This not only strikes me as peculiar (as he basically implied that he knew the exact links Pie used to connect role and character) but also could be an attempt to ensnare me by having scum counterclaiming me later in the game. As RM pointed out (which I didn't really think of tbh), this could mean that Speed did a lot of research on characters of the show to make a good fakeclaim as well.
Also, when I character claimed, Speed demanded that I justify myself immediately, which was not only strange (as I've never seen town demand an explanation for someone's claims at the very beginning of the game) but could also signify him trying to get an early wagon on me.
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@Barney
It's not so much the voting policy itself that is the problem (lowering the voting standards could increase voting, but that is an extremely slippery slope).
The problem is the sense of a general lack of willingness to vote on all but the simplest of debates. I'll admit, I am guilty of this just as much as the next person.
I don't blame the voters themselves. Analyzing a debate where both debaters are competent and all of the arguments are well-thought-out is tedious and time-consuming, without much in return. Very few people have the time and mental energy to do this and write-up a sufficiently detailed RFD on an informal debate website. Furthermore, as people generally take the path of action with the least resistance, they will inevitably vote for the least mentally taxing debates, as they only have to put in a fraction of the work to get the same results.
The solution to this would be to provide some sort of reward (something like Green Coins) for voters.
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@RationalMadman
I'd be willing to VTL Speedrace if he doesn't come on by the end of the DP. If he turns out to be scum, then Water will look extremely sus.
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@simplybeourselves
Well, I absolutely find it suspicious that somebody would announce their role unprovoked. I can't think of a good reason as a townie for announcing your role from the beginning of day one without provocation. So I suspect that PressF4Respect is scum.
Miller is a negative utility role for town. This means that I'm actually better off claiming at the beginning of the game rather than later since there is likely a cop in this game. If I were to claim later, I would look more sus (especially if my claim comes after a cop investigation).
If they're town then they make themselves vulnerable
How? I'm essentially a vanilla townie that would read guilty by a cop.
and if they're scum they have reason to lie about it.
If I'm scum then I'm taking a huge risk of being counterclaimed, especially since I said both my role and my character very early on.
I can't think of a good reason as a townie for announcing your role from the beginning of day one without provocation.
It's way better to claim early on than to claim later, possibly after a cop investigates me. The latter would make me look extremely sus and would almost certainly lead to me getting lynched on that day, which would be disadvantageous to town.
What's more, he also claimed that my wishing everybody on my team good luck was a way to look town. But that's clearly false because "good luck everybody on my team" is an alignment-neutral statement.
I said it was a very weird way of saying town, because no one here is going to say that they are on team scum.
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@RationalMadman
Whoops, didn't see that. My bad.
But he still includes Supa in the list of people who he thinks is scum right now.
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@RationalMadman
Really? I know it seems like a gag, but not only did he say that Supa is scum more than once (in fact he just showed that Supa was his top scum read), but he's also VTLing him right now.
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@oromagi
Enjoying summer is well-established scum tell
Wait... are you serious about this?
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@oromagi
If you had to guess three scum out of everyone here, who would they be and why?
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@Greyparrot
@oromagi
Ok, this is one squabble I am not getting involved in.
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@oromagi
What do you think of the conversation between me and Water?
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@oromagi
I can't respond. GreyParrot is the only person on DebateArt who has me blocked.
Oof. I wonder why.
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@RationalMadman
Look at the conversation between me and Water. What do you think of it?
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@oromagi
"Most trusted name in news."-Jeff Zucker
I think you got outlogic'd m8. How are you possibly going to respond to the brilliant points of this astute gentleman?
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Ya, which shows you put a lot of effort into it.
You said that my character claim (more like one specific part of it) didn't look like your PMs. It was implied in your post that it was a possible scumtell. I said it might look like that because I paraphrased it. And now you're trying to say that I intended that remark to show that I put effort into it, and not to say why my char claims don't look exactly like your PMs. You are literally trying to redirect my statement.
Are you seriously trying to get others to scumread me based off of this? It screams desperate.im not
Then what was the point of #171?
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@WaterPhoenix
I didn't have anything like "Dirty and monstrous on the outside, innocent on the inside" before my role claim thoughThis looks like something pressf added on by himself
It's called paraphrasing your PMs...
Also I assume you're not a miller...
Are you seriously trying to get others to scumread me based off of this? It screams desperate.
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Also:
@RationalMadmanI don't think it's a sub-optimal town play. Claiming miller at the start is much more believable than if someone claimed miller after a cop said they were guilty, which would be the sus-est thing ever.
Here he's saying I'm not playing a sub-optimal town play (implying that the fact that I claimed this early as miller seems town).
And miller is an inherently scummy claim.
Here he's saying I look scummy because I claimed miller.
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@Vader
Because in all the games that I recall being in with WP, I don't remember a single time he was like this.
It's also a noob scum instinct to defend your scum buddy to make them look innocent when they are being pressured.
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@Vader
I haven't seen WP play in a few months, so Supa, tell me. Has Water been playing like this (defending others to this degree) in other games where he was town?
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@Vader
Look at the conversation I had with Water, and tell me that Water wasn't trying to vehemently defend Speed.
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@WaterPhoenix
Your responses smack of apologetics.
VTL Water
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@WaterPhoenix
Because you said to only answer the last question
I meant the last question in that post itself. You clearly knew what I meant, considering the fact that you only responded to the last question of my 4-question post.
oh really? so you anticipated that speed's char suggestion was the hypothetical trap i just suggested? but you didn't mention it before?
I said that what you described could be a possibility. I clearly said that he was demanding me substantiate my character claim that early in the game, which is not normal town behaviour. You're trying to misconstrue what I said here, and that raises many red flags.
I would count those two posts as decently active
Which two posts are you talking about? The character challenge and the question, or the two "lol" posts?
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@Greyparrot
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Beautiful, mature response. So wow. Much on point.
Shapiro would be jealous of the quality of your arguments.
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@oromagi
I WILL DEBUNK ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS WITH THIS
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@oromagi
I'm guessing Greyparrot didn't read his own link, because it says this:
* This has not been reviewed by the FDA. This device, or concept of this device is currently not indicated for use in the treatment of COVID-19.
LOL 🤣 🤣 🤣
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@WaterPhoenix
questions
Why do you hope this is the last of the questions?
It'd be hard to persuade everyone to lynch
If I take the bait, I'd essentially be playing right into their hands. Because he suggested it to me, they would claim that I'm lying, and there would be a good chance I would be lynched on DP1.
You thought that speed suggesting a char was a trap?
Why else would he demand an explanation so early on? I'm not saying it's 100% a trap, just that it has hints of being a trap. As far as I'm aware of, this isn't normal townplay.
And he's been fairly active, he typed character suggestion and responded to the questions on the first and second page. I didn't say he was very active, just decently active.
Where was Speedrace decently active? He directly challenged my character claim (demanding an explanation for it ASAP), answered to one question (which was so easy to respond to that it could possibly be set up, and would also make the asker look extremely scummy if they weren't new), and said "lol" twice. That was all he did in this thread. He made only one post which could be counted as substantive.
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UNVOTE
But I'm still concerned about this, and all other townsfolk should be too.
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@Crocodile
I've suspected him for scum, but then I realized he was probably making noob moves. My end decision was two-sided. Either, he's scum, or he's just making stupid noob mistakes. My claim has been the same since the begining.
Then why did you say "he's sure as hell not mafia"?
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@WaterPhoenix
I hope this is the last one.
The last of what?
Firstly, this plan would bank on you claiming miller
It didn't bank on it, because I already claimed miller.
and counterclaiming wouldn't necessarily put mafia at an advantage.
It definitely could. For example, if they CC and manage to persuade everyone to lynch me, then they would have two members down easy. Even if they lose one member, they would still have gotten at least 2 for 1.
Secondly, this trap that may have been set didn't even work.
Because I didn't fall for it.
I know this might seem blown out of proportion, but based on the way he played so far, I definitely wouldn't put him as lean town.
Also, you claimed he was decently active. How so?
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@Crocodile
Please explain yourself with regards to the post above.
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Ok I just realized something HUGE
Lean Scum
- User- Well his relationship with Speed seems kinda funky
- Speedrace- Well his relationship with User seems kinda funky.
Here Crocodile says that User's funky relationship with Speed makes him lean scum.
Classic noob town move. I don't know if you're a power role, but you're sure as hell not mafia.
Here Crocodile says that User "sure as hell" isn't scum (which is made only 5 posts after RM says User is the most town).
User2006 seems like he's in kahoots with Speedrace tho.
Here Crocodile says that User is in kahoots with Speedrace, which based on #57, means that Crocodile sees User as lean scum again.
Crocodile switches his position from User is lean scum, to User is not scum (possibly because RM said the same thing).
And then he switches back to his original position only 16 posts later.
I feel that this is a noob scumslip (that pretty much flew under everyone's radar).
So I tentatively:
VTL Crocodile
for flip-flopping
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@Speedrace
How do you know my character from my role claim? How do you know which links between my character and my role are present? How do you know what aspects Pie focused on when adapting the roles to the characters?
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@WaterPhoenix
Correction: Don't answer the first 3 questions yourself. I still wanna hear your answer to the last one.
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@WaterPhoenix
On second thought, don't answer the questions yourself. I wanna hear it straight from the horse's mouth.
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@WaterPhoenix
When you claimed miller he said you were probably Monty, could be some elaborate scheme where they anticipate you grabbing the char then other scum counter claims or something, but probably not.
But how does he know my character from my role claim? How does he know which links between my character and my role are present? How does he know what aspects Pie focused on when adapting the roles to the characters?
Also, how come you're trying to persuade me that it's not a trap, even though you describe the trap that they're not going to try in detail?
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