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@Barney
For users, there's an overwhelming margin of victory at almost three times the closest runner up, so if there's no objection we could just plug the top three into the HoF without further voting.
Sounds good.
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@BrotherDThomas
What better way to stand out, and for Christian men to possibly “stand up” at a party you’re going to attend, is for the Christian to strip naked in the spirit of our Yahweh/Jesus God as exemplified by Paul, aka, Saul, in the following scripture:
Pardon me, but I think you have a minor error. The Saul in 1 Samuel was not called Paul. It was the Saul in Acts who was also called Paul (don't quote me on this, but if I recall correctly, Paul was the Greek translation of Saul).
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@Greyparrot
@Barney
@That1User
@Speedrace
@WaterPhoenix
One ping only, Mister Vasili.
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@MisterChris
@skittlez09
@Crocodile
@BearMan
@Pattern
Ping!
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@Stephen
It doesn't. In fact, the curse on the ground is totally irrelevant here. The only reason I brought it up was because the curse on the ground is in the same passage as the curse on Adam.
Do you have any response to the rest of my post?
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@BrotherDThomas
That makes sense. I just hadn't seen that before.
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@Intelligence_06
It means that debate is already in the hall of fame because it won last year.
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@Stephen
Yes I read it. It appears that god cannot make up his mind. Either the ground was cursed since Adam and still is, yet since Noah the ground is no more cursed since he smelled meat cooking. Which one is it.
The first one. God didn't say that the ground is no more cursed; He said, "Never again will I curse the ground," which has a very different meaning. I won't say anything more on that topic because it is a red herring. I've been in forum debates where I foolishly jumped on a red herring. I learned that it's extremely difficult to make any progress when the topic keeps changing.
It is interesting that you chose the word "children" when most bibles including the KJV use the word - youth - and not child or infant or baby.
That was negligence on my part. I only looked at what it said in the version I quoted it from. I'll be more careful in the future. However, I don't see how it makes much difference in this case.
But either way and what ever the exact word used, this simply does not prove your claim that God himself condemned all children to death for sin.
I agree. I never intended that verse to prove that on its own. However, it was not on its own. It was one part of a longer argument. Let's go through it again.
What absolute claptrap. You need to learn how to read your bible.I was going to ask you why what I said is claptrap, but, to your credit, you explained in a post to TradeSecret.That's your job. You are claiming something I haven't claimed. Psalm 51 is traditionally claimed to have been composed by David as a confession to his god after he sinned with Bathsheba?So this is Davids opinion and belief.Yes and no. Yes, it is David's opinion and belief, but it is not just David's opinion and belief.2 Peter 1:19 - 2119 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (emphasis mine).The biblical writers were human, but, according to the Bible, God spoke through them. So while David wrote those words, they are God's words as well.
The point I'm making here is that Psalms 51 is God's word, so you can't simply dismiss it as David's opinion.
Let's return to Genesis 3.
Genesis 3:17-19
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
Notice the section in bold. Yes, God is cursing the ground here, but he is also cursing Adam himself. Now the question becomes whether this applies to everyone or just Adam.
Romans 5:12-21
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It's clear from this passage that the curse God gave to Adam did apply to everyone, according to Scripture. "For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners." Yes, sin is inherited. We are sinful by nature according to the Bible. Now, I have provided evidence that the Bible is God's Word, not just the parts that quote God when he spoke directly. It is up to you to refute that. However, even if you do succeed in refuting that, you are still left with the problem that God did directly say it.
Genesis 8: 20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth."
Now, as you pointed out, this verse doesn't condemn children to death. In fact, it doesn't condemn anyone to anything. However, it does say, "the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth." Of course, you could try to twist the verse into referring only to adult humans, but the context makes this impossible. This verse is referring back to another verse before the flood (which I probably should have quoted in the first place. I never claimed to be a good debater, so give me a break) that says this:
Genesis 6:5-8
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
"Every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." Notice how there is no distinction here based on age. I did check other versions this time, and it was the same story. All of them condemned man or the human race as a whole. This passage also contains the punishment for evil. God saw that all of them were evil and condemned all of them to death. The only exception was Noah and his family. Why them? Because they were sinless? No. If you read on a few chapters, you can see for yourself that Noah and his family did sin. They were spared because they still serve God, which goes back to the redemption I talked about when I got carried away and started preaching to you.
So there you have it. God did condemn everyone to death because of sin, and you can see that both in what He said directly and what He said through the biblical writers. But you can also see the good news that God can save people from their sin.
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@BrotherDThomas
ANY OTHER BIBLE RUNAWAY LIKE TRADESECRET WANT TO ENGAGE THE D-MAN? ANYONE?
Yes. This is probably a really stupid question, but when you say "Jesus H. Christ," what does the "H." stand for?
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@Speedrace
Pie just lured me back into it by offering a Civil War Generals game. I couldn't resist.
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@Intelligence_06
It is metal. I don't really like rap. This is the closest thing to rap I listen to.
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@thett3
Do you like pineapple on pizza?
Chocolate or vanilla?
Trump, Biden, 3rd party, or Sweet Meteor Of Death (SMOD)?
What type of music do you like?
Oh, and most importantly...
You care enough to ask questions r-right guys?? H-haha I’m still cool and relevant right.......
...who are you again?
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@ILikePie5
/in for Civil War Generals. I just can't pass up the opportunity to do a historical mafia game.
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@Barney
Oromagi's series of debates with ramdatt. Since he knew ramdatt wasn't going to reply, he joked around with the resolutions. There were four such debates, two of which had similar topics and therefore the same reply from oromagi. "If you want constructive information about the coronavirus, listen to Andrew Cuomo" became a debate about whether Andrew Cuomo could offer good info about construction during the coronavirus to oromagi. A debate about "WHO," as in the World Health Organization, became a debate about WHO the radio station. A debate about the now former president of Liberty U Jerry Falwell became a debate about Jerry Falwell, septic tank installer.
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@Speedrace
The activity was what made it so great. Everyone played their hearts out, drafterman especially so. That game really showcased his skills. The bus in DP1 earned him and warren town cred, and the gambit in DP3 worked perfectly at forcing my hand to side with them. It's a pity he doesn't play here anymore.
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Why not. I'll nominate MCU Characters DP1 as my final thread nomination.
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@Speedrace
I remember that game. It was extremely unbalanced, but still tons of fun to play. It featured so many of the best parts of mafia - Lunatic's crazy gambits, an almost perfect bus, active players, interesting roles. It was probably one of my better games, if I do say so myself, but that was in large part because you gave me a role that made winning an almost foregone conclusion.
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@Vader
Both Ragnar and I are nominating the debate Is Jesus the Messiah, so it should have two votes.
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@Stephen
Oh wait, maybe you're right and I am going blind. I assumed you hadn't read post 43 because you never responded to it, but you quoted from post 82 in your last response to me, and post 82 quoted from post 43. Ok. Did you read to the end of post 82 (or 43) where I quoted this verse:
Genesis 8:21
21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.
Did you read that part? If not, please do so before we go on so we're on the same page.
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@Stephen
I'm not talking about the post that #38 is responding to. I'm talking about post #43.
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@WaterPhoenix
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@seldiora
Chocolate or vanilla?
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For the miscellaneous category, I will nominate this debate between oromagi and Ramdatt.
If you want constructive information on the coronavirus, listen to Andrew Cuomo.
As a debate, it has little value. However, it has plenty of value for comedic humor, along with several other debates between these two.
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I will also nominate the debates Is Jesus the Messiah and Seldiora vs. Supadudz on Charter Schools.
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@Stephen
In case you didn't see it the first time...
What absolute claptrap. You need to learn how to read your bible.I was going to ask you why what I said is claptrap, but, to your credit, you explained in a post to TradeSecret.That's your job. You are claiming something I haven't claimed. Psalm 51 is traditionally claimed to have been composed by David as a confession to his god after he sinned with Bathsheba?So this is Davids opinion and belief.Yes and no. Yes, it is David's opinion and belief, but it is not just David's opinion and belief.2 Peter 1:19 - 2119 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (emphasis mine).The biblical writers were human, but, according to the Bible, God spoke through them. So while David wrote those words, they are God's words as well. But since you want it "from the Almighty Himself," I will oblige you. Let's start in Genesis 3.Genesis 3:17-19“Cursed is the ground because of you;through painful toil you will eat food from itall the days of your life.18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,and you will eat the plants of the field.19 By the sweat of your browyou will eat your fooduntil you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;for dust you areand to dust you will return.”While this is spoken directly to Adam, this curse applies to the whole human race. How do I know this? It's simple, really. I know this because everyone dies, not just Adam. Here's what the Bible says about this curse.Romans 5:12-2112 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.It's clear from this passage that the curse in Genesis 3 applies to everyone. Let's move on to another place where God Himself once again declares that everyone deserves death.Genesis 6:11-1311 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.Notice who God is saying deserves death in this passage. "I am going to put an end to all people." That includes children. Here's what God says just after the flood.Genesis 8:2121 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood."Here you have it from the Lord Himself that everyone is evil from childhood. It would seem that that isn't just David's opinion after all. According to God Himself, everyone is evil. Everyone is under the curse of death.
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@Barney
I wouldn't have nominated it if I wasn't planning more.
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@Stephen
Nope. You showed me a few psalms supposedly written by a man with something on his conscience i.e the outpourings of King David. This does not amount to evidence that god condemned all children to death for sin as much as you wish it to be so.
Did you miss my post where I quoted what God said in Genesis?
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@BrotherDThomas
First off and subjectively, SirAnonymous is one fry short of a Happy Meal.
That's definitely true. Any guy who wastes his time roleplaying as an environmentalist picking NFL winners based on the "greenness" of their mascots probably has a few screws loose.
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@Intelligence_06
I wasn't being serious. While I don't like pineapple pizza myself, I have no problems with anyone else eating it. I don't actually think that makes people heretics. Some days I think that my posts need a pop-up message that says, "Warning! You are about to read a post by SirAnonymous. Potentially infuriating levels of bad jokes may be present in this post!"
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@n8nrgmi
if the median salary is 50k, then the insurance kicks in above 50k. to keep things simple, everyone is liable for up to 50k.all other health insurance is outlawed
If I'm reading this correctly, the result of these two clauses combined is that people with incomes below 50k would have no health insurance, but would still get to pay for other people's insurance through taxes. I highly doubt this was intentional on your part, but this plan would tax the poor to pay for the health insurance of the (relatively) rich.
Also, what's the point of outlawing all other health insurance? In order to compete in the market your plan would create, they would have to offer insurance plans comparable to or better than the government insurance plan. That seems like a good thing to me; why ban them?
I have other criticisms, but I don't feel like arguing about them, so I'll leave it at that.
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@Intelligence_06
A-HA! So you admit you like pineapple pizza? Rest assured, you will face my wrath - eventually. Somehow, I just can't be bothered to do anything about it at the moment.
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@seldiora
Heretic!
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@n8nrgmi
If you read back to the beginning of our argument, he was claiming that, according to the Bible, God killed innocent people, wheres I claimed that, according to the Bible, no one is innocent. So although he doesn't ultimately accept the Bible as an authority, it is the authority on this particular debate.
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@n8nrgmi
No, he doesn't, but the question he asked was "Where in the OT is it that god condemns all babies to death for sin." So for this specific question, the Bible is the authority.
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@seldiora
I'll start with the most significant question in the world, the one that can make or break a person, the one that starts wars and turns close friends into enemies. It's the question that destroys all presuppositions and shake the very foundations of your beliefs:
Do you like pineapple on your pizza?
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@n8nrgmi
I can provide evidence for Biblical inerrancy, but it's irrelevant to the discussion Stephen and I are having. We're talking about whether or not God is immoral if the Bible is true. In order to have that conversation, we have to set aside the topic of whether it's actually true or inerrant or not because that would remove the basis of our discussion.
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@Stephen
I have shown that God says everyone is evil and that the punishment for evil is sin. Ergo, everyone, including children, deserve death according to God.
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@Stephen
Yes. It wasn't evidence.
Ok. I showed you from Scripture where God said that everyone is evil from childhood and the the punishment for evil is death. If you don't think that's evidence, then the onus is entirely on you to explain why not.
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I will also nominate RM's "I will stereotype debaters properly" for threads.
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@Stephen
Well as much you want it to be evidence it isn't. I have explained that psalm 51 is simply the outpouring of man feeling guilt. What it isn't, is the evidence I asked for showing the lord god almighty himself condemning all children to death for sin.
Do you have any response to my post that contained that evidence?
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@lady3keys
Yes! Trump's sins and cruelty seem bottomless. I completely understand what you mean about abortions as well. Without clinics, girls seem to use unsanitary and life-threatening back rooms or self-mutilation to take care of their problems. Laws don't stop abortions, they just make them dangerous. Without good alternatives, the child still dies, and now, so could the mother (who is probably a child herself).
That wasn't at all the point I was making. In fact, it was closer to the opposite. However, I don't have time to infinitely expand the number of forum debates I'm in, so I'll let it go this time.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
has there been a president who is fine with practically no limit abortions? I believe Biden/Harris would make abortion the least restrictive of any administration right? If that's true, and I believe it is then certainly would be affected by who is president wouldn't it?
I don't see why. There aren't a whole lot of federal restrictions on abortion, and the ones that do exist don't affect the vast majority of abortions. Read the article I linked. Abortion rates have been steadily declining more because of state restrictions and a culture shift against abortion than because of actions of the federal government. Removing federal restrictions wouldn't change either of those factors.
Let's say Trump wins again and gets to appoint a supreme court justice or 2 and these laws are revisited then again that could be a huge affect.
Maybe, but that's pretty unlikely. Remember, Roe v. Wade was decided by a court with a majority of justices appointed by Republicans. Also, even if a miracle took place and Roe was overruled, that wouldn't outlaw abortion. It was just toss it back to the states.
I find late term abortions no matter the number far more objectionable to what Trump says and his past. Deaths are permanent, he is not.
Well, the evidence doesn't really support the idea that the abortion rate would go up if Trump isn't re-elected. Also, I don't think character can be left out of the equation. If we vote for someone who committed sexual assault, what kind of message does that send? That we're willing to overlook any crime, no matter how repulsive, if you have the right letter beside your name? Perhaps more importantly, what does it say about us? How can we vote for Donald Trump and then act like we care about virtue or integrity? The satire site The Babylon Bee wrote an article a while back saying that evangelicals (I know you're not one, but still) would be willing to vote for Satan if he ran on a Republican platform. Why should we live and vote as though that was true? I, for one, can't.
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@Intelligence_06
He was the former chief moderator. If you read the Utopia Crumbles thread that was nominated, you can find out why he is no longer the chief moderator.
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@Vader
Whoops, I deleted my post between the time you fixed it and the time you replied.
You're welcome for the write-up.
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None other has so good a claim;;
Put Supadudz in the Hall of Fame.
Don't neglect to add his name;
Put Supadudz in the Hall of Fame.
Su-pa-pa-dudz, Su-pa-pa-dudz.
Su-pa-pa-dudz, Su-pa-pa-dudz.
Su-pa-pa-dudz, Su-pa-pa-dudz.
Su-pa-pa-dudz, Su-pa-pa-dudz.
If he doesn't get in, t'would be a shame;
Put Supadudz in the Hall of Fame.
Once again, repeat the same:
Put Supadudz in the Hall of Fame.
Users:
Supadudz: Irrepressibly friendly, tremendously active, and almost universally well-liked, Supadudz is one of DART's most valuable members. He's near 10000 forum posts, is extremely active in mafia, and has competed in 27 debates and rap battles. He is also a very creative user, as evidenced by his collection of poetry, raps, and songs that he's written. He would be a worthy addition to the Hall of Fame.
oromagi: He's undefeated at 86 wins and counting. His style of debate is well-organized and logical, yet also interjected with some humor. This has allowed him to reach a rating nearly 200 points ahead of his nearest rival. But more than just being a good debater, he is a good person. This combination of formidable debating skills and an approachable friendliness should earn him a place in the Hall of Fame.
Ragnar: He is the second-ranked active debater on the site, third overall. Some consider him to be the most skilled debater, although he denies this with genuine modesty. He also applies his talents as the site's deputy moderator, a duty at which he excels. His fairness as a moderator and talent as a debater shows where he belongs: the Hall of Fame.
Debates:
Resolved: The US should institute congressional term limits
bsh1 vs. blamonkey
A masterpiece from two of DART's best debaters. It really helped me understand both sides of the debate.
I'll probably nominate more debates later.
Forums:
DART Bard, 1st Edition, 1/3/2020
Presented without comment.
I'll probably add more threads and a miscellaneous item later.
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