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@Tradesecret

I don't believe I asked that. There are only two questions in my op.
You gave a poser? " I Didn’t Ask Anyone To Die For Me."

That is a statement of fact. It wasn't a question, my lawyer friend. Don't you know the difference? You do deal in questions for a living. Had it been a question, it would have been indicated as such with the the customary grammatical question mark symbolised with one of these >> ?

The questions started just 4 lines down.

I asked this a while ago. Another question you failed to address. I suppose you don't remember this one either. How convenient?

Your welcome to put up the link.

The Bible indicates that each person is responsible for their own sins.

Where?

and this was your original claim:

The bible clearly talks of God completing what he begun[ ...................................] Yet it also clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin and needing to be saved from it. #33 Tradesecret

SO, where about is it that the bible " clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin"? You haven't told us yet.

You keep quoting me all the time. I really am quite flattered by your attention.

Good, then stop whining all the time that I am "mocking" you. " attacking you" and "humiliating you" simply for quoting you.

Quoting someone is what is done when responding to comments made, which is the thing to do when responding to something YOU have written. For instance, however would you know what I am replying to otherwise , our lawyer friend. You really should know better, with you dealing in questions for a living.

You must think I am an amazing authority.

I do. But what I think about you personally really is irrelevant Reverend. Your qualifications and your claimed background on the other hand indeed are quite amazing and does indicate a lot of authority in a few interesting fields, wouldn't you agree?

Lets see:

Starting with your education and without being asked or any prompting you freely tell this forum :

"I studied and was tutored byacademics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the OrthodoxChurch". #91

"Istudy the original languages, translate them to English", #25

"I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation".#20

" my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care. "#20

"I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications". #20

which all appear to entitle you to

" charge universities when they request me to lecture to them [ their students]". #20

Now in my opinion you have every reason to feel flattered and proud with such skills and accomplishments. And I would recommend to anyone on this forum to cut-out and keep this wonderful record of your life time achievements.

But we are not finished yet are we? You have another string to your bow don't you Reverend? You are also a fully qualified and practicing lawyer too!!!!

#20 "I am a lawyer". And indirectly you issue some good advice to us when you tell us this " I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police". And you press home your reasons to us for this advice; and I absolutely agree because it is THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE >>>>.

" I, in the first instance, will counsel my client not to get into the stand to be cross examined. It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case" . #20 That's entirely correct , it is the universally accepted law he that brings the claim must prove their case.

So seriously Reverend, who would not believe you to be an "amazing authority" with all that background under your belt? What with your family life, criminal legal work, Pastoral counseling, your work as a Chaplin to the defence forces, and university lecturing, you really are an exceptional human being. I suppose with all of that going on in your life, one can be forgiven for forgetting the odd Central biblical character and where the burden of proof actually does lay in Law.

Philippians 1:6 tells us that what God starts he will complete. Humans are responsible for their own sin. And they do need to be saved from it. AMEN!

No. Not a single word about sin. In fact there are only for words that start with the letters s-i-n in the whole of the chapter and the words "responsibility" OR "responsible". don't appear either.

Did Jesus die for all? Or perhaps he died just for the elect?

I don't know who he believed he was dying for. So you tell me, man of letters. But I can categorically tell you that Jesus doesn't say he was sent to save Christians.

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."Matthew 15:24

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@ethang5

Didn't need my permission for what?
To offer Himself as a sacrifice for the payment of the world.

What do you mean , payment of the world? What was the payment for, what did Jesus buy with the blood sacrifice.

Peter & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are not referring to you.
Then who?
Those who take Jesus up on His heroic offer.

But It wasn't an offer was it? .

I said you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

You keep saying this but offer no proof AGAIN. Instead of making threats on behalf of your god show us where the scriptures actually state this.

Your sins have not been washed away AND paid for. You still have them.

So you keep saying but offer not a single piece of biblical proof. You have painted yourself so tightly into a corner with all of your shite made up as you go, that you forget what you have already said.

And I would have been a liar.

Good. Then prove you are not lying when you have gone against all biblical claims by telling me Jesus didn't die for our sins and the sins of the world as the scriptures categorically say he did.

But as it is, you have raised so many more questions in TRYING TO DEFEND YOUR OWN LIES
That often happens when one tries to debate a subject he is ignorant about.

No that happens when people like you start to make things up and tell lies when cornered. You simply cannot prove you claims because THEY ARE LIES

You aren't a Christian.

I am not a practicing Christian and I have never hidden the fact. I have already told you, that was another decision made for me by someone else.

That wasn't my question. And I was Christened over 65 years ago
So? You aren't Christian. The payment is for Christians.

What Payment? How was it paid? When was it paid ? Who paid it? And what was the payment actually for?

Because the scriptures say Jesus PAID for my sins...
Sorry, but I've seen no verse saying Jesus took away YOUR sins. And I've read the entire bible several times.

Well then you know not your scriptures then do you? And this is probably why you seem to think that you can get away with making things up. Is it any wonder it is so easy to run rings around you.

...and has " taken way the sins of the world" Are you denying the scripters?
No. Validating scriptures. Your sins have not been forgiven. You still have them.

Prove it! you haven't validated nothing. You have proven nothing .You have offered nothing in the way of evidence for you claims. Your just lying.

If you don't accept scripture what does it matter?
Who said I don't.

Well, you did. You say so in almost every thread you post.

When?

But the scriptures say he did!!!!!.
The scriptures say Jesus sacrificed Himself as a payment,

Payment for what?

This is what happens all the time when lying Christians LIKE YOU find themselves on the backfoot after digging big holes full of lies, you start denying what even the scriptures clearly state. How fkn pathetic is that !!!!?
Something here is pathetic. That's for sure.

And I have shown you what and who. It is YOU denying even what even the scriptures ACTUALLY say. This is what you Christians all eventually end up doing because you cannot keep up with your own bullshite

You still have your sin.
Ok so then according to you and contrary to the scriptures and all four evangelists, I still have my sin and Jesus didn't "take away the sins of the world" sins?<<, That requires nothing more than a yes or no.

Nope. According to the bible.

Great. then show us where in the scriptures.

I still have my sin and Jesus didn't "take away the sins of the world"
Jesus hasn't taken away YOUR sins. You aren't the world.
And neither are you.

So show us where in the scriptures Jesus took away "the sins of the world" but not my sins?

That requires nothing more than a yes or no.

so you can't answer but ask :

Do you even have any memory of giving Jesus your sins?

" giving" !!!! 2memories of me giving"??????? You really are in a mess aren't you princess.

So [A] Do I still have my sins as you clearly state over and over thereby making the scriptures are wrong? - OR - [B] my sins have been paid for by the "heroic and selfless" sacrifice Jesus made as the scriptures clearly state making you wrong?

Trick questions don't help your argument. It is not a trick question. It is either one or the other and simply cannot be both. I personally am going with [B], and what the scriptures have to say, because I know that you're a compulsive liar and cannot ever prove your claims. such as here >#39

Did Jesus die for my sins or not? Have Christians been lying for over 2000 years as to why god sent his "ONLY son" to earth?
Have you even ever spoken to Jesus?
No. Have you? About what?

That your sins have been taken away.

FFS!!!! make your mind up!!

It's funny how certain are
About what? You are forgetting who it was that was asking the questions on MY thread in the first place, aren't you. Let me clue you into something, asking questions is not a sure sign of certainty, it is quite the opposite.

Nope, I didn't forget. It was you asking the questions. It is also you pretending not to see the answers too.

I seen the answer silly. I just don't agree with them because you have done nothing but lie and contradicted your own statements and the what the scriptures actually say. But you wouldn't know. because you have never read them for yourself. You have offered not one single verse from scriptures that supports a single one of your claims.

Listen , I can read what is written in the bible. You on the other hand have done a complete 180 ° contradicting and refuting all of your own earlier statements on this thread and are even now denying what the scriptures and the evangelist themselves say .
I've only denied what you claim the scriptures say.

On the contrary. They scriptures say Jesus died for my sins. Where is your evidence for your claims that Jesus didn't die for my sins?

The scriptures< on the other hand don't say this at all! If fact they completely & utterly contradict YOUR UNSUPPORTED claims that - I " will die IF " I don't accept his sacrifice?
John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. - King Jesus Christ

Now your talking . This is your biblical evidence that you are offering that proves all of your claims then is it? Took your time, but still. Ok lets just see if I have the context correct.

So if I don't believe in him I will die in sin or my inherited sin from thousands of years ago or both?

Read the whole chapter 8. It will help you greatly.

Oh I have, and more.

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@rosends

As far as I know, Jesus was a Jew and certainly not a Christian in any sense of the word .

Does the Jewish faith hold anywhere that Jesus the Jew came to earth to suffer an horrific execution that will some how "take away the sins world "?

From what I can make from this thread alone is that Christians are a cowardly spinless bunch that would stand by and watch anyone but themselves suffer a horrific execution and die an agonising and torturous death for something they had done?

Note the reply when I asked a Christian:

Stephen wrote: Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?

ethang5 wrote Not at all. I didn't ask Him to. #16 ethang5

Could anyone be more thoughtlessly casual and flippant in the wake of such a tragedy?.

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@Tradesecret

Why would God create flawed beings
God did not make flawed beings. A being with the potential to make choices is not a flawed being.

They just make flawed choices. Probably because they are made in the image of god himself.
But the problem - and one which you never seriously engage with is - what about the all the non-flawed choices that are made?

That may well have to do with after making many request by me for you to start a thread of your own showing god in a more positive and tolerant light and love, you have simply have failed to do so. So are you going to do that?

What about the good in the world?

I have never been asked to discuss "all the good in the world" of which there is much.

Rather than seriously engage with this topic, you ignore it, ridicule it, and pretend it does not exist.

You came onto this thread at post #54 , you didn't "engage seriously" the OP's question with your first post, or your second, which was to do with "flawed beings" #77 which also doesn't "engage seriously" the OP's question. Your next post was criticizing - " the self-delusion of people like some of the posters on here" #85 and 25 posts later at post #110 (the post I am now responding to) you begin by criticizing me for not "engaging seriously with the topic. And I have made no ridicule on this thread whatsoever.

Tell me, where have you once "engaged seriously" OP's questions in this thread. I see, that will be nowhere, then. So I hope now that you feel as incompetent and as stupid as you have clearly shown yourself to be with your glaring double standards.

God made humans. He gave them free will.

How is that "engaged seriously" the OP's question.

A person cannot love without free will.

Nope that doesn't "engaged seriously" OP's question, either.

Humanity is and was made in God's image.

Well OP's question aside AGAIN, that is exactly what I have said above at post #100..... Only I was technically wrong. We were made in the image of THE gods, plural, is what I should have said. And as the scripture itself tell us. Genesis 1:26.

I have addressed your posts here #103 and here too #13

That is probably too profound for you to get your brain around.

I will if you can explain how it all relates to you "engage seriously" the OP's question.

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@ethang5

I was never asked AND YOU tell me "Jesus didn't need my permission".
He didn't.

Didn't need my permission for what?

And that Peter & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are all wrong and simply telling lies? Because if that is the case then I am in agreement with you.
Peter & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are not referring to you.

Then who?

What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?
you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Yes you keep saying this over and over. So where is your evidence for that claim? And now you are telling me that Jesus didn't "TAKE AWAY" the sins of the world as the scriptures will have us all believe.

you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.
Yes you have said that a billion times now and offered not a single piece of biblical evidence for your claim..... AGAIN!!! where is you biblical evidence for that claim

I'm not here to teach you bible doctrine.

So you are simply yet another lying Christian caught out by your own tripe and bilge. It doesn't say that anywhere in the whole of the bible does it?

Jesus either died for our sins or he didn't which is it?
Read your bible. I'm not here to school you.

So that is another none answer that you have chosen. Very good. Those to me count as you not knowing fk all that which you now are pretending to know about. . And I have read the bible and it tells an entirely different story to the bull shite you are trying to feed " we".

But however can this be true. My sins , according to your own scriptures have been washed away AND paid for with a horrendous torturous and agonising death of a blood sacrifice THAT NO ONE EVEN ASKED FOR.!!!!!!!
Your sins have not been washed away AND paid for. You still have them.

Not according to your scriptures. But you don't know your own scriptures do you.

Then why are you even arguing that he didn't need my permission to take responsibility for my sins and die for them ?
He didn't. His not needing your permission to die does not mean your sins have been forgiven.

Then why are you even here arguing on my thread. Is all you had to do was - - tell me my sins were not forgiven and that the bible is totally wrong on the matter of forgiveness of sins and Jesus didn't sacrifice himself to take away the "sins of the world" , and then thread would have been finished.

But as it is, you have raised so many more questions. The scriptures have a way of doing that, you know. I.E. I put a question, you lie about it and then backtrack causing more questions to be raised.

And are you denying too that Jesus didn't pay for our sins with his blood sacrifice as Christians and the scriptures are always at pains to tell us?
You aren't a Christian.

That wasn't my question. And I was Christened over 65 years ago.

And no biblical evidence to support that claim. You have said "nothing was taken from me" and again you are back to talking about "Jesus' payment for me" WHAT PAYMENT AND WHAT FOR?
I never said Jesus made any payment for you. Nothing has been taken from you and I haven't the foggiest idea why you think something has.

Because the scriptures say Jesus PAID for my sins and has " taken way the sins of the world" Are you denying the scripters?

you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Where in the scriptures does it say that?
If you don't accept scripture what does it matter?

Who said I don't. I believe a lot of what is written in the bible. I have no reason not to. So AGAIN! where in the scriptures doe it say that?

You don't know do you.
Again. Does it matter to you?

So you have no evidence to support yet ANOTHER one of you wild claims because YOU DON'T KNOW!

.

.One minute Jesus is a "selfless hero" that doesn't need my permission to take my responsibilities away from me , and the next your telling me " nothing was taken away from me".
Which doesn't mean He DID take your responsibilities away from you.

But the scriptures say he did!!!!! . Are they wrong then?

This is what happens all the time when lying Christians LIKE YOU find themselves on the backfoot after digging big holes full of lies, you start denying what even the scriptures clearly state. How fkn pathetic is that !!!!?

Well that`s the point of this thread isn't it, princess. I want to, and am prepared to, take responsibly for my own crimes. But he's already done it and he's dead.
You still have your sin.

Ok so then according to you, and contrary to the scriptures and all four evangelists, I still have my sin and Jesus didn't "take away the sins of the world" sins?<<, That requires nothing more than a yes or no.

Well not according to you above or the scriptures. As I have said, and you ignored - my sins were washed away AND a blood sacrifice paid for by Jesus and his "heroic selflessness" sacrifice. You really are in a right muddle now aren't you.
Not the scriptures in the Bible.

So what is it that you are backpaddling on now?

So [A] Do I still have my sins as you clearly state over and over thereby making the scriptures are wrong? - OR - [B] my sins have been paid for by the "heroic and selfless" sacrifice Jesus made as the scriptures clearly state making you wrong?

Did Jesus die for my sins or not? Have Christians been lying for over 2000 years as to why god sent his "ONLY son" to earth?
Have you even ever spoken to Jesus?

No . Have you? And that wasn't the question.

And by all accounts my freedom of choice was taken from me before I had the chance to even object. You are silly and thoughtless sometime aren't you.
It's funny how certain are

About what? You are forgetting who it was that was asking the questions on MY thread in the first place, aren't you. Let me clue you into something, asking questions is not a sure sign of certainty, it is quite the opposite.

your poor reading comprehension.

Don't you Christians ever get fed up of wheeling out that old shite of an excuse when you have been put in check.

Listen , I can read what is written in the bible. You on the other hand have done a complete 180 ° contradicting and refuting all of your own earlier statements on this thread and are even now denying what the scriptures and the evangelist themselves say .

YOU<, After pages of now pointless argument, are now saying that I "still have my sins and nothing was taken away" and that I will pay for them if I reject the already paid payment and without ONE single piece of supporting evidence!!!!!!!. and no explanation of how I will pay for them.

The scriptures< on the other hand don't say this at all! If fact they completely & utterly contradict YOUR UNSUPPORTED claims that - I " will die IF " I don't accept his sacrifice?

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@Tradesecret

Why would God create flawed beings
God did not make flawed beings. A being with the potential to make choices is not a flawed being.

They just make flawed choices. Probably because they are made in the image of god himself.

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@ethang5

I have said "what is mine is mine". They don't have free will to take what belongs to me.
Nothing was taken from you.

The freedom to bare my own responsibilities was taken from me. I was never asked AND YOU tell me "Jesus didn't need my permission".

So what are you even arguing about if you are now saying "nothing was taken from me"? And are you now saying that Jesus didn't sacrifice himself and didn't die for our sins or to take away the sins of the world ? And that Peter & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are all wrong and simply telling lies? Because if that is the case then I am in agreement with you.

What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?
Your sins are and you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Yes you have said that twice now and offered not a single piece of biblical evidence for your claim..... AGAIN!!! Yes I know my responsibilities are mine you hence the sole reason for this thread. And you keep telling me that "heroes do not need to be asked to sacrifice themselves here #3 ethang5 . When I asked you does it even bother you that someone took responsibility and DIED! for your crimes you flippantly said - "Not at all. I didn't ask Him to. He volunteered". #7 So if we still have ours sins what did Jesus die for?

Jesus either died for our sins or he didn't which is it?

But however can this be true. My sins , according to your own scriptures have been washed away AND paid for with a horrendous torturous and agonising death of a blood sacrifice THAT NO ONE EVEN ASKED FOR.!!!!!!!
Your sins have not been washed away AND paid for. You still have them.

Then why are you even arguing that he didn't need my permission to take responsibility for my sins and die for them ?

And are you denying too that Jesus didn't pay for our sins with his blood sacrifice and as Christians and the scriptures are always at pains to tell us?

You will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Three times now. And no biblical evidence to support that claim. You have said "nothing was taken from me" and again you are back to talking about "Jesus' payment for me"

WHAT PAYMENT AND WHAT FOR?

Where in the scriptures does it say that?
If you don't accept scripture what does it matter?

You don't know do you. You're just another lying Christian that is desperate to win a argument through sheer bloody mindlessness now that you have well and truly painted yourself into a corner with your own contradictions and backpedaling.

One minute Jesus is a "selfless hero" that doesn't need my permission to take my responsibilities away from me , and the next your telling me " nothing was taken away from me". THEN WHAT THE FK ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT!!!!!????

Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?
Not at all. I didn't ask Him to.

And that is my point. I didn't either and I wouldn't have been so spineless & cowardly as you appear to be to accept this grievous and deadly offer had I been given a choice, my continence simply wouldn't allow it. Obviously yours does.

Well that`s the point of this thread isn't it, princess. I want to, and am prepared to, take responsibly for my own crimes. But he's already done it and he's dead.
You still have your sin,

Well not according to you above or the scriptures. As I have said, and you ignored - my sins were washed away AND a blood sacrifice paid for by Jesus and his "heroic selflessness" sacrifice. You really are in a right muddle now aren't you.

Did Jesus die for my sins or not.? Have Christians been lying for over 2000 years as to why god sent his "ONLY son" to earth?

And by all accounts my freedom of choice was taken from me before I had the chance to even object. You are silly and thoughtless sometime aren't you.
Perhaps, but I have reading comprehension.

I don't think so. You have done a complete 180 ° contradicting and refuting all of your own earlier statements on this thread.

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@ethang5

...and if these scriptures weren't so ambiguous may be people wouldn't need Christians or the church or Priests or Pastors or Chaplains to try explain them or defend them.
People need Christians or the church or Priests or Pastors or Chaplains to try explain them and defend them because of people like you.
Why have they taken it upon themselves to do this.

They wanted to and needed no approval from you.

So you are saying then they have actually taken it upon themselves to force this "good news" ideology onto someone that doesn't want it? Where ever did they get such

dictatorial idea? And who or what authorised them, ?

I very rarely start with an argument. I start with a question and then an argument ensues and ending with the likes of you not being able to support your own claims.......
......such as here >> #39 so when you are ready.

Tell us something we don't know.

I just did .

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@STVLTVS

hello.

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@ethang5

...and if these scriptures weren't so ambiguous may be people wouldn't need Christians or the church or Priests or Pastors or Chaplains to try explain them or defend them.
People need Christians or the church or Priests or Pastors or Chaplains to try explain them and defend them because of people like you.

Why have they taken it upon themselves to do this. What business is it of theirs that they should teach to others what you believe are the words of god ?

Just like you are attempting and failing to do on this thread.
It's amazing how many times you claim people are failing while never offering a single logical argument.

I very rarely start with an argument . I start with a question and then an argument ensues and ending with the likes of you not being able to support your own claims.......

......such as here >> #39 so when you are ready.

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Is teaching kids about Hell moral?

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@ethang5

As evidenced by the fact that there are 2.5 billion people alive right now who consciously choose Christianity.

And you have facts and figures to support that 2.5 billion people actually "consciously choose Christianity" of their own free will do you?

It is literally impossible to be a Christian unless you consciously choose Christianity "of your own free will.

SO! AGAIN ! You don't have any evidence for your retarded claim then. No one is surprised.

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@Tradesecret

didn't stop you introducing criminal law and legal advice into a thread when I asked you a simple yes or no biblical question, now did it Reverend? Would you like reminding;
This
LOL@ your continued sleight of hands. In the first place - I never introduced legal advice.

But you did. When I asked you to answer a simple yes no question you told us that in your capacity as a lawyer that you advise your clients "never to answer a Yes or No question" #15 thereby introducing legal advice and lawful practice into a thread. I am not interested your pathetic semantics. You just love your double standards when they suite you, don't you Pastor?

I simply drew on legal principles in relation to b of p

Not in that thread I pointed out.#15. It was all legal and lawful then to do so then wasn't it? You used legal practice to avoid answering a simple yes or no question. My point was that suited you then but here you are wanting to over turn the universally accepted code of law accepted by all legal practices that the B Of P rests with YOU, the one that brings the claim.

and the legal principles are : Burden of Proof: How it Works

In civil litigation and criminal prosecutions, the burden of proof lies with the party asserting an allegation of fact.

It's a fundamental principle.: which you are trying to deny

I did not EVEN introduce legal principles.

That is because it clearly suites you not to. To do so would blow your B of P argument clean out of the water.

But look at what you AGAIN state yourself here on this thread BECAUSE IT SUITES YOU>>

I love how people talk about things like facts when they don't have any way to ACTUALLY prove it. None of this would pass a court room test. #11

Tradesecret

So again, you are refusing evidence presented on this thread because according to you "None of this would pass a court room test. #11" <<<,,this is you introducing legal and lawful practice and "principles" into a thread when it SUITES YOU!!!!. You should fire whoever is writing your script for you because whoever it is they making you look even more ridiculous for someone that claims to be a wo/man of letters AND a lawyer!!!!! Or at lest get them to read all of your comments on this thread before answering on your behalf.

Theists don't go round saying - atheists are wrong.

Even if that is true, it still doesn't alter the fact, Reverend, that YOU make the claim that god is real, that he created everything on the planet and in the universe and that every word in the holy scriptures were as you say " breathed by god himself". PROVE IT!
I am sorry - this post is not about theists making a claim about God being true. It is about an atheist wanting to know about evidence.

That's correct. Is about asking for evidence concerning the existence of god because the Burden of Proof in on the theist. And you have been arguing - against the universally accepted law that the B of P is on s/he brings the claim. And it has turned out then that you can't even prove your claim.

IT is not our job to prove the atheist is wrong.
I know it is your job to defend and prove your belief and your position and your claim that god exists .
God does a pretty good job himself.

Does he? Then lets some some solid and satisfactory evidence for that claim - YOUR claim.

I would take the view that it is the atheist who is the complainant.

Well let me tell you lawyer, that the only complaint I have with YOU and Christians , is that you can never prove you case.
We don't have to prove God exists. LOL! it is not us with the eye problem or with the unbelief.

Well you do if you insist that god exists. And you really need to fire your script writer. He / they are doing you absolutely no favours and are making you look amateurish and appear to be very retarded when compared to all of the quantification that you claim to have. And of late your posts certainly don't become a wo/man or letters.

They are the ones who are always insisting that the theist needs to address what they assert.

Well I don't. I only ask you to adress what it is that YOU claim .

I only ask that you support and prove your claims. [A]But you don't have to. No one is forcing you. You make the choice either to try to defend your "god breathed" scriptures or simply ignore. There is one or two other options that are open to you but you Christians let your pride stop you. And YOU in particular, let not just your pride, but your absolute arrogance and ignorance . But I suggest that you should never come to the table empty handed as you do. You have shown me that you know very little about these scriptures above what you have been taught to " pass on" by others. As you freely admit here >>>>.
Do you even read what you write? I talk about God.

Actually you - write words about god - and I have to wonder why if "words are just words" according to you? I mean, whats the point of writing anything at all? << can you answer that question?

But did you read what I have wrote above at [A] in that quote of mine? " But you don't have to. No one is forcing you".

And makes no difference to me. HOW MANY TIMES!!!?? I ask a question you don't have to answer it. In fact I prefer it when you don't or can't, I usually suspect the latter when it comes to my questions?. I am quite content to just keep highlighting the ambiguous biblical half stories and posing my questions, especially to people such as yourself, Reverend ; a qualified person that claims to have "I studied and was tutored by academics,scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church".#91 and all those I honestly find it all a great experience , but I would have also preferred it to also be a challenge too.

You continually assert that "you have not seen any evidence for God's existence". That is your assertion. That is your positive assertion. Except you are too afraid to own it.

See this is where you are making GIANT, GIANT assumptions and "assertions" about what I believe. So show me just one single place on the whole of this forum where I have said I do not believe in the existence of god/gods or have even said that I - " have not seen any evidence for God's existence". <<<<<<<<< these are your assumptions and "assertions". You just love you double standards when they suite you don't you.

would I have an agenda? You would be better of using Matthew as opposed to Mark. Nevertheless, that is a commission for the apostles. Is it able to be extended to others in the church?Possibly

Then what exactly is your function as a Pastor and a Chaplin. What is the point of you and your ILK at all if not to spread to the world "the word of god" ? <<<< do you see how silly your sounding Reverend? Do you see how contradictory you coming across. Do you not see how in your desperation to be contrary you are denying that you have no religious function !?

But is it a command to others apart from the apostles?

I don't care. And you should know. I have simply quoted your own scriptures where Jesus tells his followers to go out and "preach the gospel" whatever it it was. Did these followers simply preach and not teach others to be teachers and preachers, so that they in turn would also carry on the teaching of Jesus? Do you not see how fkn stupid you are sounding.

The church would not make such an assertion? Since it is your assertion, I wonder if you will attempt to prove it?

I think my "assertion" is proven by the BIBLICAL fact that Jesus tells his followers to go out and preach to the world,Mark 16:15 or are you going to deny that too?

Now if this is not your "agenda" <<< your word, then what is your purpose? And why did you spend all of those years of training into becoming a minister of the church doctrine? You tell us that you "studied and was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church".#91.

You tell us that you also qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation to lecture student at universities" where you charge for the privallage.#20. You further tell us " I study the original languages, translate them to English" #25.

And to round it all off, and this is the relevant part of your academic history where the particular point here is YOU not having an "agenda" is YOU TELL US >. "I in most parts are merely passing on the teaching of what i havereceived".#20 <<<<<<<< So what is it that you are "passing on" to all of those university students with all those years of religious academia under your belt, if its not the "word of god"Reverend? Do you see what a nonsense you are creating for yourself (or someone else is).

It is theist who is constantly under attack from the atheist.

Well in my particular case I simply read, scrutinize and question the scriptures. I don't care if or not there is a god. I don't care that Jesus believed he was dying for me (if he died at all). . I didn't ask him to sacrifice himself and from what I have read, he didn't want to either. And I like to take responsibility for my own sins and mistakes, and the thought of someone taking the blame or responsibility for something that I did , frankly appalls me, Reverend, doesn't it you?
I treat these ancient texts as a history, a very bad and flawed history.
You lie again. You do care.

You really are desperate to be right about something and anything, aren't you.

You like most atheists put the lie or misconception that you don't care - but you do.

Prove it?

Otherwise you would be of doing something different. But no - instead - you are here trying to prove your case. Because you do care.

What I trying to prove???

You are not a lawyer at all are you?
More ad hominin attacks.

It was a question.

And "words are just words" aren't they Reverend? How could my question ever cause you to feel like that you are being attacked?

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@Tradesecret

That is correct Stephen, in relation to your opening poser. No one who is a sinner would ask Jesus to die for them.

I don't believe I asked that. There are only two questions in my op.

And the question is why?

No the questions were :

(1)But who does the bible say is responsible for our crimes/sins?

(2) In relation to Genesis4: 9 Is this to say that I am not responsible for anyone but myself, my actions and my own behaviour?

I never read anything past the opening poser.

And I don't believe that for a second although you did entirely miss the questions in my OP............

and ignored this one raised entirely by a claim that you yourself have made?>

The bible clearly talks of God completing what he begun[ ...................................] Yet it also clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin and needing to be saved from it. #33 Tradesecret

And where about is it that the bible " clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin"?

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@zedvictor4

Jesus is a GOD proxy,

A1+

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Is teaching kids about Hell moral?

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@ethang5

As evidenced by the fact that there are 2.5 billion people alive right now who consciously choose Christianity.

And you have facts and figures to support that 2.5 billion people actually "consciously choose Christianity " of their own free will do you?

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@ethang5

If the bible says very little, then it isn't ambiguous. Learn what the words you want to use mean.

I know what it means, and if these scriptures weren't so ambiguous may be people wouldn't need Christians or the church or Priests or Pastors or Chaplains to try explain them or defend them. Just like you are attempting and failing to do on this thread.

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@Tradesecret

The bible clearly talks of God completing what he begun[ ...................................] Yet it also clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin and needing to be saved from it. #33 Tradesecret

And where about is it that the bible " clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin"?

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@Utanity

The bible also has a death sentence for acts of homosexuality. In fact your jealous god of war destroyed 5 cities along with hundreds of thousand of innocent children because these cities were riddled with iniquity and acts homosexuality and homosexuals.
God he doesn't like homes because they don't have babys but the muslims dont like homes just because they dont like homes

So they both have their own reason to kill homes. Only one has killed hundreds of thousands of innocents children in the process of killing "homes". do you have an example of Muslims doing this?

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@Tradesecret

As far as I am aware, all Abrahamic religions worship the same GOD.

It's the DEMIGODS that are the problem.

Hmmm - the Christians worship Jesus as God. When did the other Abrahamic religions start worshiping Jesus?

So then are you saying that the Christian god Jesus - the first and the last - is not also the ancient Hebrew god Yahweh?

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@ethang5

The bible says nothing about the age of the Earth or the universe.

The bible is so ambiguous and unclear it says very little about anything other than your gods wrath and love of war.

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Stephen wrote: By all accounts, and after all the claims made by Christians of humans having “free will” someone did take it upon themselves and committed suicide on my behalf and I didn’t have a say in the matter.#1
ethang5, wrote: The other person has free will too, and did not need your "say" to make his own choices.

Well that is only your own thoughtless, selfish, cowardly and spinless opinion, that doesn't hold one single ounce of truth. What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?

You think its untrue that other people have free will and do not need your "say" to make their own choices?

No I haven't said that. I have said "what is mine is mine". They don't have free will to take what belongs to me.

What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?
Your sins are yours, and you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

But however can this be true. My sins , according to your own scriptures have been washed away AND paid for with a horrendous torturous and agonising death of a blood sacrifice THAT NO ONE EVEN ASKED FOR.!!!!!!! I don't know if I should laugh at the sheer stupidity of it all or pity him because he may have been mentally ill.

You will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Where in the scriptures does it say that?

Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?
Not at all. I didn't ask Him to.

And that is my point. I didn't either and I wouldn't have been so spineless & cowardly as you appear to be to accept this grievous and deadly offer had I been given a choice, my continence simply wouldn't allow it.

You will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Well that`s the point of this thread isn't it, princess. I want to, and am prepared to, take responsibly for my own crimes. But he's already done it and he's dead.

And by all accounts my freedom of choice was taken from me before I had the chance to even object. You are silly and thoughtless sometime aren't you.

Here is the original question and you have avoided it four times now. Take it on or please leave the thread.

Who does the bible say is responsible for our crimes/sins?#1

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@Utanity

and those arabs mock Jesus

No they just believe he was the last prophet before Mahammad became the last prophet. And in the case of Jesus it appears everyone but Jesus himself was calling Jesus a prophet.

teaching peoples to push gays off the roofs

The bible also has a death sentence for acts of homosexuality. In fact your jealous god of war destroyed 5 cities along hundreds of thousand of innocent children because these cities were riddled with iniquity and acts homosexuality and homosexuals.

Where do you get all of your information about acts of god?

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@ethang5

Stephen just enjoys posting hateful stuff about God and Christianity

Such as? I only question the "hateful stuff about God and Christianity" that is wide spread through- out the Old Testament and the unreliable and ambiguous half told stories in the New . You just don't like me highlighting what an absolute "hateful stuff" that spews from almost ever page of the OT.. such as...

Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.Psalm 137:9

HAPPY !! ? it says. That y don't teach em that HAPPY jolly verse from god at Sunday school do they, Ethang5 ? Will that be because it is a "hateful" thing to say?

What about the real truth that Jesus came ONLY to save Jews ?

Jesus said "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.". Matthew 15:24 Them poor little Christian children must be wondering why they too cannot be "found". Are you going to explain to them why? Are you going to tell them the truth? Of course your not. You have admitted to being a spinless coward that would let someone else take the blame for your own mistakes even if it cost a life. #8

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@ethang5

If you think obsessive walls of texts about another poster is "having something to add" then I think I'll just stay being that one person thanks.

You have the memory span of a louse.

It was you that returned to the forum repeatedly speaking on the behalf of "another poster" after your lengthy ban "following a resumed pattern of sexual harassment"#17.

You wasn't invited and certainly wasn't asked to speak on behalf by Reverend Tradesecrete to the point of embarrassing her, was you? She is more than qualified to speak for herself. You have contributed nothing to the topic at all and have simply embarrassed a fully qualified person into distancing herself from you, and unfortunately, the forum.

But I suppose your track record for a "pattern of sexual harassment", didn't go down too well with her either.

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@ethang5

Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?
Not at all.

I didn't ask Him to.

And that is my point. I didn't either and I wouldn't have been so spineless & cowardly as you appear to be to accept this grievous and deadly offer had I been given a choice, my continence simply wouldn't allow it.

He volunteered.

That isn't entirely true, is it. He was sent here. Unless you can show me where the scriptures say he wasn't and came of his own free will?

talking of which :

Stephen wrote: By all accounts, and after all the claims made by Christians of humans having “free will” someone did take it upon themselves and committed suicide on my behalf and I didn’t have a say in the matter.#1
ethang5, wrote: The other person has free will too, and did not need your "say" to make his own choices.

Well that is only your own thoughtless, selfish, cowardly and spinless opinion, that doesn't hold one single ounce of truth . What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?

Ok, so what exactly is your question?

How many times? It is there to read and answer for yourself . It hasn't gone anywhere, #1

And you keep avoiding it?

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I'm trying to understand your intention here.
I am not surprised there, I have to be honest. I can only say that it may well be because you have ignored the question entirely.

Ok, so what exactly is your question?

Its there to read and answer to it for yourself . It hasn't gone anywhere, #1

And the idea that I would ask or want anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me.

That idea isn't in the bible.

I know. That is why I find it so appallingly and shockingly sick . Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?

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Saved or Saved Being Saved?

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@Lit

One doesn't follow after an influential person without first knowing them.

Which is exactly what his disciples did do , didn't they? Jesus spoke some words and as if by some miracle dropped everything.

Matthew 4

Mark1:16-20. tells us much the same

Luke nor John don't mention the "calling"

And all without some much as a goodbye to family, any children they may have had, and possible wives that may have been left behind, not to mention homes, businesses and leaving their own father in the lurch. And they by all accounts had only just him face to face. where as, you didn't see him at all. But follow him you did, didn't you? Are you an honest person?

Are we to believe this story at all at face value? Is the story wrong? Is it right? Or is it just another biblical ambiguous half story that I keep mentioning that most here deny, and where one has to use imagination and fill in the blanks with assumptions with only very little information to go? If so, then yours would be as good as mine... with a few differences. I don't believe Jesus was the son of god and I don't believe that he performed a single miracle either. And I know that you can never explain them away without defaulting to the supernatural.

First we have to agree what we mean by saved.

Its your thread. Why don't you start by telling us what you mean by " being saved"? And what it is you believe we are being saved from & by who one is being saved and why?

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Why you cant here god

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@Utanity

You cant here god because god is just not here god

So we cannot hear( "here") god. I totally agree with that.

When you here the true god he will speak to only you

But you said we cannot "here" (hear) god. So which is it?

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@ethang5

And the idea that I would ask or want anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me.
That idea isn't in the bible.

I know. That is why I find it so appalling. No one did ask him to do it. Just who did he think he was going around taking the blame and responsibility of others. I still haven't found a single bible reference where anyone asked him to do this on their behalf. Or one where he himself tells anyone that his mission was take responsibility for others and die for their crimes, where the bible suggests the complete opposite and that we are responsible for out own "sins";

Deuteronomy11:16 “ take heed of yourself”.

Genesis4; 9 “Am I my brother's keeper?”

And what's more, not a single one of his disciples appear to have had a clue that this was his mission here on earth.

And to state another biblical fact, Jesus himself says very little about his mission that he was sent to do, such as:

“ I have come to preach good news to the poor....toproclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, toproclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.....” Luke 4:18-19, and this bias verse "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." Matthew 15:24 . And that is about it really.

So Nope. Not a thing there about dying for someones responsibilities. Indeed, if at all he was a "Messiah" his mission would have been to free the Jews from the Roman yoke which he failed to do.

It is also odd that we are ONLY informed of these so called " heroics of selflessness" years after he was dead, by Christians like me , that had never met him.

I have directly asked people on this forum (one being a man of the cloth), wouldn’t they too be appalled and find it abhorrent if someone just took it upon themselves to take responsibility for their own sins, crimes and mistakes and sacrificed themselves via an horrific death? I have had no follow up response as of yet.
Or you ignore their "follow ups"

" follow up's" in those cases were only noticed by their absence, their absences were not hard to ignore.

...there were only four humans on the planet at the time...
Who told you that?

The same thing that "told you" it was true. #28 & #29 . (be careful)

I'm trying to understand your intention here.

I am not surprised there, I have to be honest. I can only say that it may well be because you have ignored the question entirely and went for the man instead of the ball.. No surprises there, then. Maybe you should leave it there and let those more qualified than you to try explain away or simply answer .

Off you go.

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@ethang5

Spamming

Yes you really aught to consider the amount of times I have to repeat myself ESPECIALLY after I made it crystal clear to YOU at post #53 Stephen : THAT

" This is the last I am going to say on the matter as I won't be party to YOU hijacking and derailing someone else's thread by causing an irreverent, uncalled for and un-necessary argument" .

and you fall for it every time don't you? Is it any wonder that your friend appears to have had the good sense to have distanced him/herself from you.

So you chase as much as you like sunshine my answer will always be the same.

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@ethang5

His pal Jesus should have warned him

Indeed. This was shocking and he being a man of clothe too that teaches and preaches in universities.

I didn't know dee dee preached in a university. Why would a university need preaching?

I am sorry. I was under the impression that you were showing us how Tradsecrete had made a complete imbecile of himself twice with your encouragement on this thread and he being both a Pastor and a Chaplin too. Which I thought was a bit unfair of you considering he had already suffered enough embarrassment at your hands already .

They were simply mistakes that anyone could have made and you seem to keep highlighting them for your own self satisfaction, For god sake man, I though he was your friend!!!?

So I thought it only right and fair that I should step in and show the Reverend Tradesecret in a better more positive light simply by highlighting just a few of his qualifications and talents that YOU seem to ignore and ONLY want to denigrate.

I also believe that anyone wanting to debate or discuss the "god breathed" scriptures with the Reverend Tradesecrete should first look at his brilliant pedigree to have an idea who they will be up against.

Starting here #20 & here #91 and especially here #25 were they will understand that they are not taking on just any bible bashing idiot that cannot support his claims, but a shrewd , sharp and highly intellectual person that has spent years of his life studying under some of the greatest minds in the legal and religious fields, and YOU should appreciate that.

And YOU, or anyone else, shouldn't forget that, either.

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I didn't ask anyone to die for my crimes or sins or misdemeanours.

By all accounts, and after all the claims made by Christians of humans having “free will” someone did take it upon themselves and committed suicide on my behalf and I didn’t have a say in the matter.

And the idea that I would ask or want anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me. Neither my brother nor Jesus is my keeper. And I will suffer and `bare my own cross, ' as it is I that am responsible for my own actions.

But who does the bible say is responsible for our crimes/sins?

The bible seems to suggest we alone are responsible. Deuteronomy11:16 “ take heed of yourself”.

And when the omnipotent lord God himself, he having unlimited power, appears to be unable to locate Able asks his brother;

Genesis4; 9 “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?

“Am I my brother's keeper?”

Is this to say that I am not responsible for anyone but myself, my actions and my own behaviour?

Nowhere will we find a single reference where Jesus admits to his inner circle of coming to specifically do die for their sins. There are a few verses that could be crowbarred into suggesting that he did as much, such as John 3:16, but it will be a struggle to squeeze these words into the mouth of Jesus and sins are not even mentioned, only belief.

I find it appalling that someone is said to have taken responsibility for something I am alleged to have done and had suffered what the scriptures describe as the most vicious, cruel and sadistic death ever dreamed up by humans, voluntarily!

I find also applauding that someone had taken it upon themselves to actually “sacrifice” themselves without my knowledge or consent! On my behalf.

I have directly asked people on this forum (one being a man of the cloth), wouldn’t they too be appalled and find it abhorrent if someone just took it upon themselves to take responsibility for their own sins, crimes and mistakes and sacrificed themselves via an horrific death? I have had no follow up response as of yet.

And as an afterthought:

We notice too that god doesn’t address Cain's reply of responsibility but exiles him for his crime of murdering his brother. Cain complains at gen 4:14 that “it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.” but it is never explained who will actually kill Cain considering there were only four humans on the planet at the time of the murder and with them now being a man down leavening only three?

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@ethang5

TS has been correct and consistent on the matter of the BoP.
Show me where s/he has been correct on the matter of where the Burden Of Proof lays.
You just cannot help persistently embarrassing your friend, can you?

TS believes tha,t "Each person making a positive claim holds the responsibility of defending that claim." This is true and logical. Of course, that makes it less likely that you will agree with it.

So you are speaking about what only YOU believe someone else believes. Sorry, that is not evidence . So you have no evidence.

So show me a direct quote or simply Now leave me alone.

This is stalking and intimidation for the sake of it

I have no interest in what YOU believe about what Tradedsecret believes about the Burden of Proof. Tradesecrete has made it more that clear what s/he thinks of the B of P but you are just to dumb and lazy to have read all of this tread.

Spamming

Yes you really aught to consider the amount of times I have to repeat myself ESPECIALLY after I made it crystal clear to YOU at post #53 Stephen : THAT

" This is the last I am going to say on the matter as I won't be party to YOU hijacking and derailing someone else's thread by causing an irreverent, uncalled for and un-necessary argument" .

and you fall for it every time don't you? Is it any wonder that your friend appears to have had the good sense to have distanced him/herself from you.

So you chase as much as you like sunshine my answer will always be the same.

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His pal Jesus should have warned him

Indeed. This was shocking and he being a man of clothe too that teaches and preaches in universities.

The Reverend Tradsecrete wrote: I can't seem to recall where Lot was ever held up as a paragon of virtue or righteousness.

Can you think of anywhere in the Scriptures where Lot is help up as being a model for Jews or for Christians? I can't and I would never hold him up as so.
Stephen wrote: 2 Peter 2:7 "and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless" .

Reverend Tradsecrete wrote: I am not sure if you read the story or not?

Stephen wrote: I have serious doubts whether you have ever read the whole scriptures for yourself, or questioned them for yourself, Reverend Chaplin Tradesecrete?

.

There are other massive clangers he drops on this thread but its pointless dragging them up. We wouldn't want to embarrass the Reverend now would we.

So lets sing his praises instead. I am sure he will appreciate the opportunity now that you have brought him up AGAIN!!!

You didn't know did you!!!!? Look

#20 Tradesecret

I am a lawyer. There you go. Now you know. I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police. I don't care how you read that - no comment is the right thing to do. When we are in a contested hearing, I, in the first instance, will counsel my client not to get into the stand to be cross examined. It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case. It is not mine to prove we are innocent. It is our job to make sure the prosecutor does his or her job properly. If my client insists in getting into the box - despite my advices - I will examine him or her asking open ended questions so that they can answer particular questions. I never ask a question I don't know the answer to. And I am not actually allowed to ask my client - yes or no questions because I would be accused of leading the witness. And then the prosecution will cross - examine my client. The cross-examiner is permitted to ask both open ended questions and leading questions. He would be foolish to ask open ended questions. His job is to ask leading questions. He wants a yes or a no. Why? Because then he can lead him into traps and inconsistencies. I counsel my clients - NEVER to answer a question with a yes or no - but always to qualify what you are saying - because the cross examiner never asks a question without a purpose or intention to lead to somewhere. But the first rule of cross - examination is NEVER ask a question you don't know the answer too. Because when you do - the answer you will get will probably upset the apple cart and throw you off. But I know that the same advice is being given to witnesses for the prosecution for when I cross examine. And there will be times when I insist to the judge - that the witness needs to answer the question - with a simple yes or no. But judges do not lightly support this submission. And the reason they don't is because they know that doing so - is leading the witness into unfair or unforeseen traps. Just because witness X saw Y do something with his left hand 6 months ago and wrote it in his statement does not mean that his evidence today that Y used his right hand and is confident that it was not his left hand - does not automatically mean that Y is innocent. statements made close to the time of the crime recalled differently 6 months later - are inconsistent and can be used to call into question the reliability of the witness's evidence - but that inconsistency does not necessarily weaken the prosecution's case.

So, yes, my client's pay me for the work I do for them. Do you have a problem with people being paid?
Do I charge people to listen to my version of the gospels? No, I don't charge students, I charge universities when they request me to lecture to them.
Do I allow students to question me? Absolutely. I have no problem with this. Do I allow clients to question me? Not in a court setting, no. But they are free to ask me whatever the like about the law. I do charge them for that privilege.

I never talked about counseling session. I said I counsel my clients. Lawyers are called Counsel. We council our clients. We give advice.

But in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care. And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation. I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications.

Ido understand Orthodoxy. I studied and was tutored byacademics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the OrthodoxChurch. #91

His talents don't end there either !!!

Tradesecrete wrote: Istudy the original languages, translate them to English, #25
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5083-the-god-topic?page=1&post_number=25

It leaves one to wonder what his hidden talents are, does it you?

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@Barney

the topic in this one is supposed to be the mistreatment of daughters in the bible,

It is. But I said goodbye to that sometime ago.

But it went off the rails some after etheng5 & co decided to bury his friends seriously embarrassing comments . I agree, the brother didn't help the thread, but he appears to have fell victim of Ethang5's usual tactic of burying threads that make him of look ridiculous under a pile of argumentative nonsense and reams of text that have absolutely nothing to do with " the mistreatment of daughters in the bible".

I will have to accept that all of my threads will suffer this treatment as will any threads that I may comment on. It is just a shame for those wanting to discuss religion on a religion forum.

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@ethang5

-

@ethang5 wrote: You seem to mention and/or quote Tradesecret in all your posts, . ...................you've done it to me a couple of times now. In the middle of a thread about some random subject, you'll start babbling about Tradesecret .

Do I? It may well be because of something he may have claimed on a thread such as s/he has done on this thread for instance, that I may disagree or agree with.

Or it could be that I may value the importance of his/her input , I mean, with all of those qualifications under his/her belt, who wouldn't want to a qualified and professional opinion.

Or it could well be that someone such has your self has taken it upon themselves to interfere where it wasn't even asked for.

But let me point out this fact for you. The Reverend Tradesecret, for 99.9 % of the time comes onto my threads uninvited , is that stalking or an obsession? . s/he is welcome to do that of course and I couldn't stop him even if I wanted to. But I don't.

So lets look at just my last 14 threads starting from my last and what one could also construe as "an obsession " , shall we.

for instance here > https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5194-i-have-two-virgin-daughters he joined the thread at post 4

Here joined post 28 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5164-messiah-what-did-it-actually-mean-to-be-a-messiah?page=2

Here joined post 35 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5123-the-bible-can-t-cause-anything?page=2

Here joined post 23 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5060-whatever-did-herod-mean

Here joined post 3 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5011-what-did-john-the-baptist-besides-baptise

Here joined post 10 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4969-the-sons-of-god

Here joined post 3 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4948-matthew-27-52-53

here joined post 7 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4911-of-pigs-and-men

Here joined post 5https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4889-the-case-of-john-the-baptist

Here joined post 5 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4864-what-qualifies-one-to-baptise-another

joined Here post 53 where he was rather late to the party but come he did https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4518-when-will-they-ever-get-it-right?page=3

Here joined post 66!! https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4478-christianity-won-t-be-1-much-longer?page=3

i'll stop there as I think you should get the picture?

But I don't consider this the Reverend Tradesecret has having an obsession with me, would you?

If at all there is an obsessions to be noticed, I think that you have an obsession with her/him - Tradesecrete.

Again you have appeared speaking on his/her behalf as if defending her/him. I hope soon that s/he will wake up to realise that you do her/him no favours when you do this and make her/him appear to be quite retarded and incapable of handling her/his own. When, with all of his/her qualifications , I am sure s/he considers her/him self more than capable to live up to any challenge that comes his or her way.

And you probably didn't know but S/he does tutor and lecture at universities you know, and so is more than prepared for any challenges that come her/his way from all those curious students that are eager to learn from her/his own experiences with god and the scriptures and that she doesn't even charge but accepts a fee from the university. Look >>> "I charge universities when they request me to lecture to them". #20

So you see, s/he doesn't need you or anyone butting in and speaking for her and making comments on her behalf that make her look defenseless and incapable and stupid and silly.

If you were to ever once attempt to interfere on my behalf I would feel quite embarrassed and ask you to stop.

And s/he certainly doesn't need anyone feeding him/her lines and questions to pose to others, that certainly leads to bad things.

This is the last I am going to say on the matter as I won't be party to YOU hijacking and derailing someone else's thread by causing an irreverent, uncalled for and un-necessary argument .

And the author shouldn't stand for your derailing antics either.

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4 years ago

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@ethang5

TS has been correct and consistent on the matter of the BoP.
Show me where s/he has been correct on the matter of where the Burden Of Proof lays.
You just cannot help persistently embarrassing your friend, can you?

TS believes tha,t "Each person making a positive claim holds the responsibility of defending that claim." This is true and logical. Of course, that makes it less likely that you will agree with it.

I did not ask YOU for what YOU say "Tradesecret believes".

And I don't even care what YOU say "Tradesecrete believes". That is not evidence of her/him being "correct" or even "consistent" about anything at all as only YOU say she is and has been. Now support you statements.

I asked you where she has been "correct and consistent" on the matter of the Burden of Proof that ONLY YOU claim she has.

YOU can start by producing the actual evidence that s/he actually states what only YOU say she "believes".

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4 years ago

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@Barney

Regarding #40
If anyone ever feels the need to take historical screenshots of other peoples profiles to do analysis later, you are probably being way too focused on that person. If you feel the need to do that, it's probably time to take a break from interaction with that person.

That said. We are on a public forum where lies abound.

It does at times require such actions when, with experience and aforethought a day will come when one may have to prove a claim.

And it has to be faced, that somewhere this Pastor & Chaplin Tradesecrete has lied about him or her identity. Not a serious or bad lie, but a lie all the same. And I for one don't hold it against him..... or is it her?

So, if I may, I will attempt to justify the Brothers aforethought.

For instance I could accuse the Reverend Tradesecret of telling lies. The Reverend Tradesecrete could simply deny this and respond saying ` I never tell lies ` and accuse me of making false allegations. So who is that has to prove the claim? Where does the Burden of Proof lay? Does it lay with me that brought the accusation or with the one I have accused of being a liar to prove his or her own innocence?

Well according to the universal accepted law on the matter of B of P, it makes no mistake and leaves no room for error that the burden is all on me/ the one that brought the claim . "In civil litigation and criminal prosecutions, the burden of proof lies with the party asserting an allegation of fact.

It's a fundamental principle. https://hallellis.co.uk/burden-proof-balance-probabilities/#:~:text=Burden%20of%20Proof%3A%20How%20it,%2D%20first%2C%20before%20the%20defendant.

So lets examine the written evidence that I have and wrote by the accused himself , and see if it proves my claim against the this man of the cloth.

Here in writing, the Reverend Tradesecrete's first identity clearly states his gender here as male >> https://www.debate.org/Tradesecret/ and nothing more.

( And anyone with an ounce commonsense should, as he has so rightly done, follow the exemplary example and limit all personal information to the bare minim required on an internet forum).

Then, again in writing by the accused own hand, we come to the second identity of the Reverend Tradesecret where now a SHE , a female, informs us of not just her gender but offers voluntarily a great detailed and informative history of about herself that is not even required! https://ibb.co/bKmmtpW

All very odd considering this is also the same person the tell us that s/he instructs and advises all of her/her " clients" (s/he's a criminal lawyer too) "never to answer a yes or no question" - but offers an internet forum full of no-face strangers all the possible information they could require. All very contradictory for a lawyer , imo. What the written word can cause for someone is almost magic,... one could even call it, demonic..

Anyway one of those genders has to be a lie. The Reverend Tradesecrete has lied . It is that simple and for what reason she did this doesn't even enter into the equation.

So we now have a person with two entirely different personalities, besides gender; one displaying a complete introvert personality when compared to the others extremely extrovert personality. maybe they are two different people? And the "deviancy "mentioned doesn't even come into it.

So I believe we can allow for the Brother's out thinking and use aforethought and screen shot , it is more than justified.

Created:

4 years ago

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