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@ethang5
I just cannot understand why JESUS son of god- The Prince of Peace - would want his hordes of followers to arm themselves to the teeth and want to destroy the family unite.It couldn't be your poor reading comprehension. Nah, it couldn't be.
No, I know what I have read. I even supplied the verses where the Prince of Peace spoke those words to his followers to sell their clothes to buy arms and told his followers that they were not worthy of him unless they loved him more than their own children and his intention to create division among the family unite.. You simply cannot face the fact that the Prince of Peace says himself that he had not come to bring peace
Unless you are going to tell me those are not the words of Jesus, which is it?
Pitting “‘a man against his father and brother and sister, a daughter against her mother and brother ,a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law etc etc.You didn't read the part where it told you how to become a Christian huh?
This thread doesn't concern becoming a Christian and why is it that YOU Christians keep forgetting Jesus was a JEW that had been sent to gather the lost sheep of Israel? Are you a JEW? No you are not. Matthew 15:24 "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." <<<<< ONLY, that doesn't mean YOU!!!
And you haven't explained why Jesus - the Prince of Peace would want to create division and split the family unite?
Can you understand these commands of division and hate, from the Prince of Peace? Sound like a proper little far left Marxist doesn't he.You just sound like a militant who again doesn't know of what he speaks.
Well I am only repeating what the bible actually says and making comment. You don't have to accept it and I don't care which way you want to read it. Is all I am saying is what I have wrote would make those ambiguous verses more understandable. You may simply be lacking brain capacity to even consider this as a very plausible explanation.
How large was his following? Hundreds ? Thousands? 12?Maybe he was expecting an uprising? A rebellion of sorts? Maybe he was building a small army to take by force what he believed to be rightfully his. Maybe all of his mission was more political than religious than we can realise.He was crucified my the Romans for sedition wasn't he, and this would explain the arms build, the splitting of families where one member turns on another being on opposite sides of the political divide.. Yes that would explain a lot wouldn't it. Jesus the freedom fighter. Of course that would depend which side you were on, he was probably simply considered just one of many political zealot terrorist agitators from Galilee and or Nazareth (the bandit country). And one of many claiming to be THE messiah & king of the JEWS. Well we know that he failed miserably at his mission, don't we.You don't know yet you felt comfortable enough to use the word hordes?
Well we read different numbers all the time. I was just giving you an opportunity to correct any mistakes I may have made concerning how large the following was of Jesus of the Prince of Peace was. So you don't actually know either. I would put it in the high thousands. which amounts to quite a hoard and all commanded to arm themselves. it sound to me like he was building an army in the "wilderness".
You should stop talking while your fakery is still intact.
Exposing an alternative you mean. And that sound like a veiled threat. it isn't a veiled threat is it?
You haven't the foggiest clue how one becomes a Christian,
That is why I have started a thread here>>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5301-how-does-one-become-a-christian
with these little rants?
They are not rants, Princess, stop being so sensitive. I am simply making sense where no sense exist when one simply takes these scriptures at face value. Stop crying about it ands start supply some evidence to the contrary. Or you can simply leave the thread.
Your boy was building an army to take a throne that he believed was his my right. And only then do these verse make sense
John 7:41 " HOW CAN THE MESSIAH COME FROM GALILEE? " How indeed, especially when we are also told that he was from Bethlehem.
John 1:46 "NAZARETH!!!!? CAN ANYTHING GOOD COME FROM THERE"? Well no it can't by all accounts. because it was the land of cut throat bandit zealots according to historian Flavius Josephus.
Well, those two verse speak volumes now don't they, when we read Matthew 10:34 again it gives us a little more insight .
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@Utanity
a true christian doesnt pick the religion
That doesn't explain how you became a Christian .
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@janesix
I was pretty happy as an atheist, but I guess ignorance is bliss.
It is for many. My brother for example. He for most of his life may as well have been on his own planet. There isn't much that fazes him and he always appears oblivious to everything, even his own children at times ( he once asked me did HIS daughter (my niece) have a boy or a girl ). And I do envy his ignorant bliss at times too.
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@ethang5
Still Struggling I see. Lol
Indeed I am, Ethang5, I really am.
I just cannot understand why JESUS son of god- The Prince of Peace - would want his hordes of followers to arm themselves to the teeth and want to destroy the family unite. Pitting “‘a man against his father and brother and sister, a daughter against her mother and brother ,a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law etc etc. Can you understand these commands of division and hate, from the Prince of Peace? Sound like a proper little far left Marxist doesn't he.
How large was his following? Hundreds ? Thousands? 12?
Maybe he was expecting an uprising? A rebellion of sorts? Maybe he was building a small army to take by force what he believed to be rightfully his. Maybe all of his mission was more political than religious than we can realise.
He was crucified my the Romans for sedition wasn't he, and this would explain the arms build, the splitting of families where one member turns on another being on opposite sides of the political divide.. Yes that would explain a lot wouldn't it. Jesus the freedom fighter. Of course that would depend which side you were on, he was probably simply considered just one of many political zealot terrorist agitators from Galilee and or Nazareth (the bandit country). And one of many claiming to be THE messiah & king of the JEWS. Well we know that he failed miserably at his mission, don't we.
John 7:41 " HOW CAN THE MESSIAH COME FROM GALILEE? " How indeed, especially when we are also told that he was from Bethlehem.
John 1:46 "NAZARETH!!!!? CAN ANYTHING GOOD COME FROM THERE"? Well no it can't by all accounts. because it was the land of cut throat bandit zealots according to historian Flavius Josephus.
Well, those two verse speak volumes now don't they, when we read Matthew 10:34 again it gives us a little more insight .
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@ethang5
Please. I am asking you stop your nonsense and to leave .No. I will not leave. You do not control me.
I wouldn't want to own you I just want you to leave the thread. You have made no attempt to answer the question and are simply agitating for the sake of it .
So please address the OP or leave me and this thread alone.
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First, your timeline seems a little off with Elvis and the Ali fight
Madison Square Garden 74 Ali (missed the fight because I was hospitalised, Ali won . I seen Elvis 4 times Mid-South Coliseum Memphis 74 afternoon and evening shows. Lake Taho 1976 and Pittsburgh new years eve 1976. And you cannot prove otherwise AGAIN.
The rest of your replies are absolute crap and poor attempts at recovering some ground and saving face. You made claims you cannot possibly prove and now you scraping for answers for the fkn sake of it. Not to mention derailing someone else's thread with shite. Your a joker.
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@Utanity
Can you show me anything from his biography that is good.......at all? Because when I have challenged others here to do so, they seem to shy away from the subject of "god's good".No
No surprises there then. You are not on your own.
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@Utanity
Well that is on par with god where he wiped out five cities in one night killing upwards of 1.5 million men women an children? What a pair, eh?God he is always good and bad
Yes well I tried pressing you on this before but you avoided the part when I said I know all about god's bad , its his good I am lacking on. Can you show me anything from his biography that is good.......at all? Because when I have challenged others here to do so, they seem to shy away from the subject of "god's good".
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@ronjs
For me, it was the evidence from fulfilled prophesy
Where did you hear of the prophesy?
and the lack of evidence for any alternative to ceation by an intelligent creator.
How did you come by your evidence for an "intelligent creator"?
because the older we get the more set in our ways we become and are less likely to become Christians.
That is interesting. Why do you think that is?
It is most often young adults who turn to Christ
How and why do you think this happens?
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@Utanity
then stalin he got to serious over marx and killed half of his own peoples.
Well that is on par with god where he wiped out five cities in one night killing upwards of 1.5 million men women an children? What a pair, eh?
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@ethang5
The so called "free thinkers" have become the herd.They all have tattoos
Wrong!!! never had one and never would. In my opinion we collect scares going through life without inflicting them on ourselves.
They all vote democratic
You could neve support that stupid & illiterate claim.
They all are pro abortion
Another claim you could never support. You doing well so far.
They all worship scientists
I know a few and I can tell you that I do not worship them and you cannot prove that I do. So another stupid throw away claim.
They all love homosexuals.
I am indifferent, what someone chooses to do behind their own curtains is nothing to do with me. I only vaguely know two lesbians and they are very pleasant.
They all hate God (but deny it)
I do hate your particular god. And your god has given me a book full of reasons to do so. Would you like a short list or a long one.
They all hate America(with your herd its England)
I love American and many Americans. I have lost count of the times I have been there. I have visited all of the mainland states. Seen Elvis Bob Dylan and Springsteen. Was taken to hospital and missed the Ali V Frazier in 1974. And myself and one of my sons were in New York the night Trump was elected and I went out with some lovely American girls. And I love my own country England although it is being turned into a complete and utter shithole by mass immigration from Africa and the middle eastern shitholes that are bringing with them a culture and a FKN RELGION!!!! that is completely alien and incompatible with the west and my own English society. Just yesterday we had what appears to be another terror attack and another Pakinstani Muslim rape gang arrested and in custody .
So you wrong again. You are doing well aren't you?
They all want more immigration
You must be fkn kidding me! I personally don't know of a single person in my country that does want more African and middle eastern rapist, murderers, terrorists and absolute bastards in my country that have made it more than clear they want all non believers dead unless we convert to another RELIGION!!!!
0 /8 didn't you well.
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So not a single Christian here can explain how they became christian other than having it foisted on them in infancy without their permission.
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@janesix
Jesus said a lot of weird and shitty things. Christianity is NOT all about LUV
Well, you not wrong there. This verse hardly shows intentions of peace does it.
Luke 22:36 22:36 "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one ".
So. We have the Prince of Peace commanding his hoard of followers to sell even their cloths to buy arms.
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@Tradesecret
It seems to me that you simply want to call me out. Good for you.
Thank you. I was actually highlighting your double standards and hypocrisy.
If a prosecutor states that the defendant has broken the law and the defendant says I do not have the capacity of forming the intent to break the law. Then the burden falls firstly on the prosecutor, but then once the defendant raises this point which they are legitimately expected to do - then the burden shifts from the prosecutor to the defendant.
That simply isn't true and you know it. You are on record here telling us that you never advise your clients to take the stand because, YOU SAY:
Tradesecret,wrote: "When we are in a contested hearing, I, in the first instance, will counsel my client not to get into the stand to be cross examined. It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case. It is our job to make sure the prosecutor does his or her job properly". #20
And you can say this because it is a fact that defendant is not BY LAW obligated to "take the stand" where there is a chance he may convict himself .
And let me educate you. It is not up to you "to make sure that the prosecutor does his job properly", that will be the judge i.e the referee. You can simply raise objections and appeal to the ref...... when it suits you to do so in the interest of your client. You are hardly going to raise an objection to the "PROSECUTION" saying things that work in yours and your clients favour, are you? No matter how wrong they were. I mean , you would be a real shite lawyer to help the prosecution convict your client, wouldn't you.
You seem to know little about courts work. ..........................It is our job to make sure the prosecutor does his or her job properly".
And you. it seems. know even less. AND if I were a defence lawyer I would be praying that the prosecution failed miserably at "doing their job properly" .
God is a completely different matter. People all around the world place their lives into his hands everyday.
This doesn't prove your gods existence and just saying as such would not , as you put it, stand up in a court of law on say so alone. You are confusing faith with factual evidence. Billions believe that the Quran is the last unalterable word of god, rendering the Christian bible irrelevant and obsolete. Those same billions do not believe Jesus was the son of god either . Why should I or anyone accept your version of the word of " god" over the word of the god of Islam?
So I am sure -with you actaully being a lawyer - you understand that what " People all around the world" believe and place their trust in, is irrelevant.
Go and check out the European legal systems which use the inquisitorial system of Napoleon.
Deary me were are desperate aren't we. Wasn't it "go check the law in Pakistan" just a few days ago.
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Matthew 10:34
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.
I struggle to read anything that encourages peace about these verses. They encourage division not unity. They encourage intolerance not tolerance. All in all, they encourage everything that isn't peaceful. They encourage everything but to love one another.
It is also interesting that Jesus encourages everyone to " take up their own cross". If you don't, you are not worth a toss to Jesus.... the Prince of Peace. What ever could this mean?
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@Lit
atheists can believe in spirits and ghosts and metaphysical realms...This throws a big ol' monkey wrench in these particular atheists.
Which one's are "these particular atheists"?
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@Tradesecret
No I am not a hypocrite.
Your own statements and comments on the matter show you to be both a hypocrite and as one not too shy to implement double standards when it serves you to do so.
You have told one person on this forum that their own comments "wouldn't stand up in a court of law" , while, in the next breath, on the same thread and arguing the same thing, you dismiss the universally accepted law of where a court of law says where the burden of proof lays and who with. Then when your hypocrisy and double standards were pointed out to you, you complained that this was a forum and not a court of law. Would you like the link, Reverend?
You are always being caught out by your own ignorant and arrogant throw-away comments or statements.
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@Castin
The bible seems to suggest we alone are responsible. Deuteronomy11:16 “ take heed of yourself”.Deut 11:16 merely appears to be a caution against worshipping other gods than Yahweh.
So, you alone are responsible for who you transgress against and no one else.
Genesis4; 9 “Where is Abel your brother?”He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?“Am I my brother's keeper?”Is this to say that I am not responsible for anyone but myself, my actions and my own behaviour?"What am I, his babysitter? Why are you asking me? I wasn't even there. What is this, the Spanish Inquisition? Fuck off." -- CainI think that is the extent of the meaning of this passage. But that's just me.
Well that would be "fuck off " god wouldn't it? As Cain was apparently dead. So it would be "fuck off "god I am not responsible for Cain or his whereabouts. I am responsible for myself and my own deeds..
I did say ; the bible seems to say we alone are responsible, for our sins/crimes.
Luke 24:46-47 .....................
Indeed at a push. I did mention that there were a few that could maybe forced to appear as such. But clearly he does not tell them ever that he had specifically been sent to die for their sin .
Regardless.........We have to wonder why god didn't raise him if he was that concerned. Life does at times come across as cheap to god in these scripture.
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@Tradesecret
The burden of proof ought to be on both sides - this has been my argument from the start.
But it isn't my lawyer friend and you know damn well it isn't and never has been.
And you being a lawyer yourself know this perfectly well and accept it to be the case but only when it suites you to do so. As proven by this clear example, here >>#11
You have even told us where the burden of proof lays when it comes to your own "clients", haven't you;
You told us: " When we are in a contested hearing, I, in the first instance, will counsel my client not to get into the stand to be cross examined. It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case. It is not mine to prove we are innocent. It is our job to make sure the prosecutor does his or her job properly."#20
"ought to be"....
doesn't even come in to it.
Face it, you have double standards and you are a hypocrite. I question if your are a lawyer at all.
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@ronjs
Maybe you could rephrase the question, as i don't see any mystery about this phenomenon
I can't think of any other way of putting it. But at least you accept that it s a phenomenon.
It is most often young adults who turn to Christ
How and why do you think this happens? I have mentioned above that "some do become Christians in the adulthood. This to me is a unexplainable phenomenon ",
and it appears that you too are having trouble explaining how this happens.
because the older we get the more set in our ways we become and are less likely to become Christians.
That is interesting. Why do you think that is?
Deathbed conversions are extremely rare.
I have heard the opposite to this. Nursing runs in both my wife's and my own side of the family and has done so for a few generations. Today I have nieces , children and grand children in the nursing profession and they all claim to have witnessed bedside confessions and conversions. Indeed the scriptures themselves (if they are to be believed) speak of a conversion at the point of death and Constantine himself was baptised on his death bed.
In those instances it maybe that it is the fear of the unknown? Maybe it is hoping for another stab at life? But it remains a phenomenal mystery to me how a "young adult" or adult becomes a Christian?
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@zedvictor4
the fact that such concepts were touched upon in a creation hypothesis is neither amazing or unusual, in fact they are to be expected.
And touched upon and discussed they have been for 100's years, and centuries before the penny dropped for reluctant Christians of the forum.
I had already mentioned that people have been witnessing for instance aerial objects for millennia. They are also depicted in many medieval works of art; Crivelli (the Annunciation) & De Gelder's (Baptism of Christ) bringing both the scriptures and science together through art.#45
Above he speaks of "The concept of Genetics" . We know cloning involves genetics and now, even 21st century layperson can grasp the basic understanding of genetic engineering. And on reading about the creation of the biblical Eve, one shouldn't fail to notice what appears to be going on is a cloning of a female from the male Adam.
(1) The Adam is first anesthetised.
(2) The flesh is opened up.
(3) A surgical operation follows.
(4) A bone is removed.
(5) The wound is closed.
(6) And a woman is engineered from the bone of the man.
Genesis 2:21-23 New International Version
" So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.”
Yet our author cannot even discuss what he believes the bible "has done " or how it done it.
@ethang5 wrote: That's why no other book has even come close to what the Bible has done.Some try to play it down, but when you look at the reality of what the bible has done, you have to admit there is something there.How? What has it done and how did it do it?Sorry, I only debate people who can think.
One has to ask, is he really here to discuss anything or just agitate and harass theists.
He keeps forgetting that this is a _ religion_ forum and not a Religious forum for him and those other haughty Christians that believe it is their pulpit to look down from and that only they are the ones qualified to preach the scriptures to the unbeliever . The man is a fkn a bible ignorant Joke not to mention a hypocrite of double standards.
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@zedvictor4
One just has to wonder why start a thread that you have no intention of discussing?
I can only suppose he simply finds my questions uncomfortable to handle. I have found that most of the Christians here become extremely reluctant when approached with questions that arise from their own profound statement 's & comments that they cannot, or are afraid to answer . One has to wonder why.
I was looking forward to discussing all of these points made in the opening post.
ethang5 ethang5 wrote: Did you know that concepts made popular in science fiction were first in the bible?I won't post the passages unless asked, but here are a few of those concepts, found only in the Bible 2,000 years ago. Some have stopped being fiction, but I find it amazing that a book dismissed as the writings if illiterate goatherds could contain sophisticated concept that would take the world Years to discover.1. Time travel - The bible has the concept within it that time is fluid and relative, and movement forwards or backwards in time is possible.2. Teleportation - there are instances of instantaneous teleportation in the bible. Today, scientists are able to teleport elementary particles, but are working to get results with larger loads. But the concept was in the bible all along.3. Water in the mantle of the Earth. A lot of it. So much that Scientists today are considering changing their theories about how the Earth got water. But 2,000 years ago, the concept was in the bible.4. The concept of Genetics - The bible has stories of how genetics were used to get animals with desired characteristics more than 2,000 years ago.5. Different Dimensions - Only the bible has this concept of "outside" the created universe, where not only is there no "time", but that instances there are not synchronous with time inside the universe.My intent here is not to prove the bible true because it has these concepts, but to marvel that such advanced concepts are in the bible at all.When science one day makes possible something we presently call a miracle, will we still doubt the miracle?Even the concept of the attributes of God are unique to Christianity.Omniscience - that God knows all that can be known is an advance concept, treated with much more nuance in the bible than skeptics usually admit.Omnipotence - In the bible, omnipotence is not just that God is more powerful than anyone else, but that all power in the universe is His power, even the power used by His enemies. The bible treats energy as if it is all the same thing within the universe.Omnipresence - This concept in the bible treats physical location within the universe as if it is spacetime, not just space. A concept it took man thousands of years to develop.Immutability - This concept came to the fore when scientists discovered elementary particles. These particles are more energy than matter, and we now know energy cannot be changed. Immutability may be built into the universe! But 2,000 years ago, the concept was in the bible.Finally, the concept of eternity. That God is eternal is not simply that He lasts forever, but that He is not bound by time. This is a concept made understandable by Einstein. And this means that God is the only non-relative observer in the universe. A very high concept indeed!Is it not amazing that these complex concepts are in a document dated at 6,000 to 2,000 years ago? #1
I happen to agree with some of ^^^^that post except maybe the last line highlighted .
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@ethang5
That's why no other book has even come close to what the Bible has done.Some try to play it down, but when you look at the reality of what the bible has done, you have to admit there is something there.How? What has it done and how did it do it?Sorry, I only debate people who can think.Well I can think enough to work out that you claim the bible has done things, but then when simply asked how, you don't actually know anything it has done or how it has done anything?Because not playing your obtuse games mean I don't know?
I have asked YOU questions relating to YOUR comments on YOUR thread.
So yes, you don't know. If anyone is showing obtuseness, princess, it is you. YOU have started a thread and then failed to engage on the subject matter that YOU have chosen and commented on.
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This to me is a unexplainable phenomenonYet you claim to have read, and know the bible. How then can it be unknown to you?Did you read my question.Did you read mine?
Ok, so you don't want to answer or can't.
Please. I am asking you stop your nonsense and to leave .
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@ethang5
This to me is a unexplainable phenomenonYet you claim to have read, and know the bible. How then can it be unknown to you?
Did you read my question.
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@ethang5
Sorry, I only debate people who can think.
Well I can think enough to work out that you claim the bible has done things, but then when simply asked how, you don't actually know anything it has done or how it has done anything?
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@ronjs
Having Christianity foisted upon you does not make you a Christian,
Ok.
it is an individual decision once one is at the age of understanding.
Well that is my main question isn't it. I did say and ask in my OP >>>> :#1
Yet some do become Christians in the adulthood. This to me is a unexplainable phenomenon .
Can anyone calling themselves Christian explain this phenomenon?
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@ethang5
That's why no other book has even come close to what the Bible has done.Some try to play it down, but when you look at the reality of what the bible has done, you have to admit there is something there.How? What has it done and how did it do it?Go to any place on Earth and ask about Jesus. By being true.
Well I have come to this place , the world wide web and have asked you a direct question that has arisen from a comment the you have yourself made.
So what has the bible done? And how did it do it? Just say you don't know if you don't know.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
But The bibles brilliant for its capture mechanisms.
What do you mean, deb "capture mechanisms"?
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To my knowledge many, if not most Christians are Christian because they have had the label foisted onto them and had been taken into the religious sheepfold without their knowledge just after birth as infants by parents who probably had it foisted on them just after their birth after undergoing a water ritual aka a "rite". So choice in those circumstances played no part for the individual whatsoever. Many do, it has to be recognised, "fall by the way side " and make their own path through life unchained from any belief system.
Yet some do become Christians in the adulthood. This to me is a unexplainable phenomenon .
Can anyone calling themselves Christian explain this phenomenon?
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@ethang5
That bible book thing you got.Its. Well it's brilliant FULL STOPWe know Deb. That's why no other book has even come close to what the Bible has done.Some try to play it down, but when you look at the reality of what the bible has done, you have to admit there is something there.
How? What has it done and how did it do it?
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@Tradesecret
I take the view that the OT God is the Trinity.
No one is interested in your unsupported views. Did the ancient Hebrews worship their god Yahweh as a “trinity”? If you don't know just simply say so.
God commands his people to ask questions. Even the hard ones.
Well there's no mistaking who "his people " are, is there? That'll be Israel " my people".
" And I will provide a place for my people Israel "2 Samuel 7:10 - ---
Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel;Ezekiel 36:12
"You are the children of the Lord your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead, 2 for you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you [Israel] to be his treasured possession. Deuteronomy 14:1-2
Now show us where in the OT god "commands his people to ask questions".
We might not always or indeed ever find the right answers.
Ask and it shall be given means nothing then? Matthew7:7
We might not always or indeed ever find the right answers.But that is fine.
No its not. One asks questions because they want answers. This scriptures say "ask and it shall be given- seek and you will find " .
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@Tradesecret
When the intent of your posting is not to obtain knowledge...
The sole reason that people ask questions is to "obtain knowledge", Reverend Your just too frightened of that fact that one question will lead to another leaving yourself in yet another great big hole to climb out of. I have lost count of how many times you have shot yourself in the foot.
And you must have missed my short list of questions then Reverend:
here you are
What actually is "the will" to be done?
How is the "will " to be done on earth?
How is the "will" done in Heaven.
And by whom is the "will" being done, on earth?
How long does it take to carry out this "will" of the "father"?
but to negatively criticize,
Do you mean by me just using "words that are just words that can't do anything" ? Or was it your other pearl of wisdom that you shared with the forum that :
"Words are words. And that is all they are". #45
And your forgetting that this thread is actually my thread , that you have joined AGAIN, Reverend. I didn't drag you here.
then I have a right to offend. Yet I am not offended so there is no motive or desire to offend you.
Your sole intention on this thread so far have been to offend and with no intention of addressing the subject matter. But like everything else in your empty, miserable life, you have failed, AGAIN.
Yet I am not offended
Your whining and whinging and allegations that I have "mocked " attacked" "humiliated" and accusations of "harassing and stalking" you simply for quoting you, are well and truly documented to the contrary. And I don't doubt that before long you will throw up these same old allegations again, when you run out of replies and or answers.
After all, you are the great font of all wisdom. Please show us your wares.
This thread - MY THREAD is a thread of questions about "gods will" , Reverend. You keep ignoring that fact. I haven't come to show anything, but to have something revealed to me.
Now you may as well leave . Your attempts to offend me using ridicule have failed as have your veiled childish insults.
That after 2,020 years you have not a clue between you all - that is what I would call quite offensive.
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@Tradesecret
Why would I want to answer Stephen, when you are clearly the font of all wisdom?
No one will be surprised by your evasive response Reverend. Especially me.
Like I have said, after thousands of years repeating this Mantra from Jesus himself YOU don't have a clue what "his will" actually is. Or how the "will " is to be done on earth?
OR How the "will" is done in Heaven. OR by whom the "will" is to be or being done, on earth? OR How long it takes to carry out the "will" of the "father"?
Besides, you would disagree with me anyway.
My, my, your god has endowed you with many strings hasn't he? You even now believe you know what I am thinking. But you maybe right. So what?
So there is no point in engaging with the topic.
I didn't drag you here Reverend. You came of your own accord, as you always do. I am perfectly happy to be left alone to highlight all of these biblical anomalies, ambiguous verses and half stories that are riddled throughout the scriptures. And you are free to leave.
After all, I am sure your answer is going to top anything I have to add.
You'll never know though even if I did have something to "top you " will you.
Hence why I am waiting for your inspired words.
They are questions Reverend. I didn't start this thread by saying I will or can answer my own questions if no one else can.
And please remember just for once, that it was you that came here with sarcasm intended to offend.
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@Tradesecret
We are all eagerly awaiting your inspired wisdom. There is no point in responding, you have the answers.
So after thousands of years!!!!! of repeating one or the other version of this mantra, you don't have clue as to ; What actually is "the will" to be done?
Or How the "will " is to be done on earth?
OR How the "will" is done in Heaven.
OR by whom the "will" is to be or being done, on earth?
OR How long it takes to carry out the "will" of the "father"?
And no one should be surprised.
you have the answers.
I don't, that is why I am asking YOU, Reverend.
YOU should be able to answer this simple question with all of your self confessed qualifications and background of high education and titles of being both a Pastor AND a Chaplin in matters of religion. So many strings to one bow, #57 . It is after all, YOU that your university students turn to because of your "proper accreditation" of god " inspired wisdom" no to mention your " Pastoral care " isn't it?
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@Utanity
So like all Christians you cannot actually tell me anything about the good part of god. Well don't fret , I can assure that you are not on your own.Your being wrong again because you dont want to no so you sea what I mean that what I did writing in the very beginning here is god is loving
Ok. so just writing god is good proves god is good. well that is word madyick for ya.
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@zedvictor4
I wrote above:
"They [theists] will turn to the law of the Burden of Proof and where it lays when its suites them to do so, and so they should. But will in the very next breath, deny categorically that the same law applies when it come to the existence of God and controversial statements made in the biblical scriptures or made by themselves".#6
So I suppose it only correct that I have to prove my claim and produce an example of the accusation I made at post #6
In a response to a reasonable question about scripture that I had asked :
Stephen wrote: "52 the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the description of what is said to have happened at the exact time Jesus is said to have died, isn't it? A yes or no will do.Tradesecret; I don't answer yes or no. I am not a witness to be cross-examined or to be led by a lawyer. #5I counsel all of my clients never to answer yes or no. Why would I not take my own advice? Life is more complex than black and white - yes and no answers.#15I love how people talk about things like facts when they don't have any way to ACTUALLY prove it. None of this would pass a court room test. #11
Notice above that all those responses are court of law setting related. Where we have words such as " advise & council" "clients" "cross examined" & "court room".
After another attempt at getting an answer to the same question I received this reply (from a qualified lawyer no less) with more specific detail concerning where the Burden of Proof in law actually lays with:
" I am a Lawyer [........] I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police. I don't care how you read that - no comment is the right thing to do. When we are in a contested hearing, I, in the first instance, will counsel my client not to get into the stand to be cross examined. It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case. It is not mine to prove we are innocent" .[ #20
And I totally agree with that comment. I accept it because it is the accepted law particularly in the western civilizations..
Read then the change of attitude to this accepted law when it then we come to the existence of god>
" What would be helpful in the discussion is this. For an atheist to produce any evidence that GOD does not exist". #1
And
My attitude to B of P is not actually the person who asserts must do so. I think that is the way some people understand it.In other words, atheists are unable to prove God does not exist. Similarly,theists cannot prove God exists. We all know that as well. It is a political point of view.it would be the atheist who has the B. o P.
Keeping in mind that I asked someone to simply confirm if or not that a verse in question was from the scripture and correct ; we see how willing, fast and keen to bring the court setting and its law into a discussion forum and using the universally accept law when it suites them to defend their right and reasons for not answering a perfectly reasonable question.
But when the questions are about the existence of god or question about the scriptures that they don't like , then the universally laws of B of P fly clean out of the window and dismissed as if they never existed in the first place.
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@Utanity
That is the part I am interested in. Can you expand on that. I have trouble seeing anything good about god. In fact I see absolutely nothing good about god. So when you are ready.That is because you are being negative and all your want to see is the bad part of something what your being negative about. Everybody has good and bad and so does god and when you choose to see only bad in somebody it is being your problem and you should seeing a shrink and get some prozac.
So like all Christians you cannot actually tell me anything about the good part of god. Well don't fret , I can assure that you are not on your own.
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What actually is "the will" to be done?
How is the "will " to be done on earth?
How is the "will" done in Heaven.
And by whom is the "will" being done, on earth?
How long does it take to carry out this "will" of the "father"?
Matthew 6:9-13 Luke 11:2-4
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,
Our Father which art in heaven, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done,
10 Thy kingdom come, as in heaven, so in earth.
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
11 Give us this day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins;
12 And forgive us our debts, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.
as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.
Amen.
Not unusual the other two of the four gospellers probably don't think it important enough to include this "prayer" taught by Jesus in their own version of events as they do leave out other episodes in the Jesus story.. Interesting though that all four gospels close with the word - Amen as does only one of the two versions of "the lords prayer".
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@MisterChris
That statement doesn't need to be refuted, because it's true
It is.
It is a universally accepted law that the Burden of Proof lies with he or she that brings the claim.
But there really are pig ignorant theist that will create a whole new argument around this universal accepted fact of law and all in a fruitless attempt not to prove or deny something, but simply to save face or in a vain to be right.
They will turn to the law of the Burden of Proof and where it lays when its suites them to do so, and so they should. But will in the very next breath, deny categorically that the same law applies when it come to the existence of God and controversial statements made in the biblical scriptures or made by themselves. There are a very recent examples of this on this religion forum. Here's just one https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5083-the-god-topic where the author opening post includes this incredible retarded nonsense:
" What would be helpful in the discussion is this. For an atheist to produce any evidence that GOD does not exist". #1
I have to wonder at times - do they realise how ridiculous and retarded they come across when they stoop to this level of argument. It makes any reasonable argument they feel they have worthless and pointless.
She or He that denies the universally accepted law of where the Burden Of Proof Lays automatically loses any argument.
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@Utanity
God is loving
That is the part I am interested in. Can you expand on that. I have trouble seeing anything good about god. In fact I see absolutely nothing good about god. So when you are ready.
and god is hating
I know everything about that side of god. God himself tell us all about it. Just read his biography in the Old Testament and the killing and rape and abuse doesn't stop.
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John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. - King Jesus Christ. Read the whole chapter 8. It will help you greatly.So if I don't believe in him I will die in sin or my inherited sin from thousands of years ago or both? It doesn't state " King Jesus Christ" . You have added that.Lol. It doesn't state "John 8:24" either Einstein.
Ok you obviously don't understand that question about the verse that you believe proves a point. So lets try this one .
YOU HAVE POTED THIS VERSE>>
->@ethang5: John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. - King Jesus Christ. "
Why you have posted that verse? It doesn't prove anything at all. Besides, I do believe Jesus was a king (but I can't prove it) and a son of god ( but I can't prove that either) And I am a Christian, (and you cannot prove that I am not) and none of this alters the fact that I still didn't want, never mind ask, Jesus to die for me and hate the idea the he sacrificed himself for my sins that are my responsibility and which your good buddy the Reverend Pastor Tradesecrtet is in total agreement, and he should know . I suggest you go and read all of his/her qualifications that I listed above at post #57
...........................................
PS.
Encouraging me to post in response to something or SOMEONE that YOU or they have introduced into the argument as some sort of entrapment doesn't work princess. If you introduce it then I have right to ignore or respond to it the best of my ability, as every lawyer and judge will attest. If you don't want me to discuss the brilliant qualifications of another member you will do well not to keep bringing him or her up at every opportunity you get. I can do that aptly all on my own when the occasion or need call for me to do so.
I mean, how can a complementary post singing the praises such as that I made above concerning the Reverend Tradesecret at #57 be worthy of vindictive reporting? The Reverend Tradesecrets simply said to me "You must think I am an amazing authority". I replied that I do think that and listed my reasons why. And only someone really jealous and vindictively hateful would take offence at me singing the praises of another member: was it you?
If you or the Reverend Tradesecrete believe it wise to continue to accuse me of having some kind of "obsession" in every post you make then I have every right to respond in my own defence to the best of my ability.
The forum doesn't just slap bans on members anymore. Members are now given a chance to explain themselves.
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@Tradesecret
Yeah, well I'm hoping there'll be one I haven't heard.Well you'd have thought after thousands of years that all bases would have been covered.And I suppose there was a time when they had them covered. When it was for the church much more simpler in past times of illiteracy, ignorance and fear, when priests faced less doubt and no opposition to the total control they had of a persons daily life and a much tighter grip of the human conscience and when the churchmen were able to steal vulnerable widows houses, but alas there are legal experts that have taken over that roll today.Christian churchmen cannot burn anyone at the stake any longer. There are no ducking stools for accusations made against mainly women of witchcraft and sorcery, And no rejoicing and "happiness" for " the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks". Psalm 137:9 The good ole' days eh, they mush be sorely missed.But whatever these excuses are today, they will all boil down to the preselected option adopted in the days of old mentioned at post #2 above.Perfect example of non-engagement with OP.
You need to go back and see who it is that I directly engaged with .
Negativity.
I agree. The content of my response is clearly negative. But do you tactually understand what the OP is asking for? And I have simply expanded on what ludofl3x had to say. LOOOOOL>>
.
Then attack on the church. Ridicule. Slam bang, thank you maam.
Well yes. I am attacking the church for the "excuses" and "arguments for gods existence" that have used in the past to justify their actions of barbarity and cruelty and crimes against even their own parishioners who simply have questioned the "EXISTANCE" of god. And how these actions and vile deeds of the past can no longer be applied today. My point is that to even question the very existence of god was blasphemy and punishable by torture and death, are you going to deny that that too?
And keeping with the topic of the OP, I confirmed and agreed with another poster that the ONLY default position left to Christians and churchmen such as yourself for instance, being both a Chaplin AND a Pastor now is to simply say because the "bible says so".
LOOOOOK>>>
Is that not "negative" response?
ABSOLUTELY - no engagement whatsoever.
That's your opinion. The OP hasn't complained and I doubt he needs you butting in complaining and taking any perceived offence on his behalf. So address the op instead whining about my "negativity" towards the church .
You say at 17 below that you agree with fuaxlaw. I have simply agreed with ludofl3x ' "negative" response . LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK>>
Stephen wrote: But whatever these excuses are today, they will all boil down to the preselected option adopted in the days of old mentioned at post #2 above.
It didn't go unnoticed that you headed right for my post and me personally before even attempting to address and engage the OP which you eventually did by simply saying you agree with someone else. And then went on to talk about miracles without explaining how you believe some how prove and is your best argument for the existence of god.
Here endeth the lesson.
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@Tradesecret
@Tradesecret wrote Humans were created good - not perfect.So that would be created imperfect, then, which means to be flawed ?But then you tell us that;@Tradesecret wrote; and God did not make flawed beings.@Tradesecret wrote; Good does not mean perfect.
I know, that is my point. It means - imperfect in line with your "not perfect".
But then you typically contradict yourself by saying
@Tradesecret wrote But nor does it mean flawed.
Play semantics all day Reverend. But is does.
- not perfect; faulty or incomplete."an imperfect grasp of English" Similar: faulty flawed defective unsound.
But the problem - and one which you never seriously engage with is - what about the all the non-flawed choices that are made?That may well have to do with after making many request by me for you to start a thread of your own showing god in a more positive and tolerant light and love, you have simply have failed to do so. So are you going to do that?Just because you ask me to start a thread, does not mean that I am obligated to do so.
I know. And I totally agree with you. I am not forcing you in any way , Reverend. But then it hasn't stopped YOU persistently reminding & telling ME that I never speak of gods good or discuss the " all the non-flawed choices that are made?" by god . The thing is, is that I don't know anything about gods " good", I really don't. That is why I am asking you in your qualified capacity as Pastor & Chaplin to create a thread. It cannot be too difficult for you can it? I mean you must have papers prepared for your university students when requested to go along to the University and lecture them on religious subjects such as all the " no flawed and good" that god has done?
So will you be starting a thread, for this student?
What about the good in the world?I have never been asked to discuss "all the good in the world" of which there is much.I know I have asked the question in relation to other posters including the Brother and since you love to answer for other people when I talk to them -
Yes well, I am glad you have brought that up. You see as a rule I stay out of others peoples discussions and arguments and will only drop on another thread when I read something that I think may further explaining or evidence or proof. This is because I have many threads of my own to contend with. You on the other hand make sporadic threads of you own leaving YOU time to get yourself involved with other peoples threads and discussions and arguments and seem to welcome the fact that others interfere and butt on your behalf especially when you dug a great hole for yourself. At times it is as if you are almost being fed what to say. I don't see you complaining then , Reverend. One recent example can be seen here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5123-the-bible-can-t-cause-anything
And lets not forget who it was that created a whole thread dedicated to the Brother with the sole intention to ridicule him.
Rather than seriously engage with this topic, you ignore it, ridicule it, and pretend it does not exist.You came onto this thread at post #54 , you didn't "engage seriously" the OP's question with your first post, or your second, which was to do with "flawed beings" #77 which also doesn't "engage seriously" the OP's question. Your next post was criticizing - " the self-delusion of people like some of the posters on here" #85 and 25 posts later at post #110 (the post I am now responding to) you begin by criticizing me for not "engaging seriously with the topic. And I have made no ridicule on this thread whatsoever. Just about every post you post is one of non-engagement. You ridicule. Tell me, where have you once "engaged seriously" OP's questions in this thread. I see, that will be nowhere, then. So I hope now that you feel as incompetent and as stupid as you have clearly shown yourself to be with your glaring double standards.Just about every post you post is one of non-engagement. You ridicule.
You are not reading that quote at all are you. YOU have made four posts on this thread before I joined it and not a single one engaging the OP and his topic, not one?
At least I engaged your point of "flawed beings", when I joined the conversation. YOU, it appears joined simply to have a laugh and joke with your new found buddy that attempts to dig you out of holes of your own creation but just makes you look stupid and incompetent and retarded.
I have shown YOU a perfect example of how YOU have done EXACTLY what it is that you had the nerve to accuse me of doing and not doing.
i.e. I have shown your hypocrisy AND your double standards. Just on this thread. You accused me of not engaging the OP, but neither have you.#77 you brought "flawed beings" into the thread <<< which has nothing to do with OP and is no way "engaging" the OP.
So stop with your bullshit double standards and hypocrisy , Reverend. At post you "ridiculed" every poster on this thread if not the forum when you wrote at post #85 this " Totally amazing the self-delusion of people like some of the posters on here" ........ HOW IS THAT ENGAGING THE OP? !!! I at least engaged YOUR post on this thread that YOU brought the subject of "flawed beings" into.
.
Humanity is and was made in God's image.Well OP's question aside AGAIN, that is exactly what I have said above at post #100..... Only I was technically wrong. We were made in the image of THE gods, plural, is what I should have said. And as the scripture itself tell us. Genesis 1:26.Well actually the Hebrew indicates we humanity was made in the image of God.
Do they? What about the Christian bible, what does it have to say?
"And God said, Let us make man in our image,Genesis 1:26.
Well now I know that you find the English dictionary doesn't sit well with you especially when it contradicts your own personal definitions of words.
But "US" and "OUR" indicate the plural.
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@Sum1hugme
Yeah, well I'm hoping there'll be one I haven't heard.
Well you'd have thought after thousands of years that all bases would have been covered.
And I suppose there was a time when they had them covered. When it was for the church much more simpler in past times of illiteracy, ignorance and fear, when priests faced less doubt and no opposition to the total control they had of a persons daily life and a much tighter grip of the human conscience and when the churchmen were able to steal vulnerable widows houses, but alas there are legal experts that have taken over that roll today.
Christian churchmen cannot burn anyone at the stake any longer. There are no ducking stools for accusations made against mainly women of witchcraft and sorcery, And no rejoicing and "happiness" for " the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks". Psalm 137:9 The good ole' days eh, they mush be sorely missed.
But whatever these excuses are today, they will all boil down to the preselected option adopted in the days of old mentioned at post #2 above.
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@Lit
Atheism is a weird phenomenon within human nature.
Not believing in something just because someone said so last week or thousands of years ago doesn't mean it is weird or phenomenal. It is simple human nature.
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@Tradesecret
Humans were created good - not perfect.
So that would be created imperfect, then, which means to be flawed ?
But then you tell us that;
God did not make flawed beings. A being with the potential to make choices is not a flawed being.They just make flawed choices. Probably because they are made in the image of god himself.But the problem - and one which you never seriously engage with is - what about the all the non-flawed choices that are made?
That may well have to do with after making many request by me for you to start a thread of your own showing god in a more positive and tolerant light and love, you have simply have failed to do so. So are you going to do that?
What about the good in the world?
I have never been asked to discuss "all the good in the world" of which there is much.
Rather than seriously engage with this topic, you ignore it, ridicule it, and pretend it does not exist.
You came onto this thread at post #54 , you didn't "engage seriously" the OP's question with your first post, or your second, which was to do with "flawed beings" #77 which also doesn't "engage seriously" the OP's question. Your next post was criticizing - " the self-delusion of people like some of the posters on here" #85 and 25 posts later at post #110 (the post I am now responding to) you begin by criticizing me for not "engaging seriously with the topic. And I have made no ridicule on this thread whatsoever.
Tell me, where have you once "engaged seriously" OP's questions in this thread. I see, that will be nowhere, then. So I hope now that you feel as incompetent and as stupid as you have clearly shown yourself to be with your glaring double standards.
God made humans. He gave them free will.
How is that "engaged seriously" the OP's question.
A person cannot love without free will.
Nope that doesn't "engaged seriously" OP's question, either.
Humanity is and was made in God's image.
Well OP's question aside AGAIN, that is exactly what I have said above at post #100..... Only I was technically wrong. We were made in the image of THE gods, plural, is what I should have said. And as the scripture itself tell us. Genesis 1:26.
That is probably too profound for you to get your brain around.
I will if you can explain how it all relates to you "engage seriously" the OP's question.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
I would of saved Jesus.Operation rescue Jesus from the cross.
Nice one deb. He was saved. He didn't die either . So in actual fact there was no sacrifice. And many of those qualified here seem to forget that Jesus was forgiving sin before his alleged "sacrifice".
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@ethang5
Liberals tend not to see the fallacies in their reasoning,.
As do Christians
fallacy: 1 a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound arguments.
2 a failure in reasoning which renders an argument invalid.
3 faulty reasoning.
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