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@Tradesecret
LOL @ Stephen.
Lol away.
I have also indicated that evil originated when humans and snake chose to rebel against God
And both created by god. So unless you have anything that disputes your own words I think this is where you enter and leave the thread.
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@RoderickSpode
Our iconversation has become a complete mess.
All caused by your own non answers and complete inability to accept that you have been totally wrong on many points and your inability to accept the facts as presented in the scriptures themselves. I have shown you what a complete farce if not fabrication that the baptism of Jesus story actually is.
John was told by god himself who Jesus was, yet had seriously doubted if or not he had baptised the right person and after himself recognized Jesus as the messiah.
You have failed to simply answer why John the Baptist even thought that it should be Jesus baptising him?
where you said "you said",
"You said" the bible doesn't say if or not John himself was baptize. I showed you that Jesus himself says he was.>>>>> "John's baptism--where did it come from"? Matthew 21:25.
Or have you conveniently forgotten this.
So was John the Baptist baptised or not?Like I said, the Bible doesn't reveal that info.
And I replied
yes it does.
"You said" Johns confusion as to who should be baptising who came about because he was "overwhelmed" . But again I have shown you that John recognized Jesus straightaway as being the messiah and simply was not confused at all:
"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29
And there is more on your alleged "confusion" of John.
John not only recognized Jesus straightaway, he also seen the "dove from heaven" confiming Jesus to be "the one" , he heard the voice of god himself confirming that this was his son. he jumped in the womb with excitement when Mary approached Elizabeth who was carrying him. And this is not to mention that John was from that same place that Jesus himself had stayed many times and made his base; Bethany by the Jordan where John did his ministry including baptism.
But then once locked up,he had serious doubts and sent some of own disciples to ask Jesus was he the one to come or should we look for another.. And this all makes sense to you does it.
I am certainly not concerned if you do or do not answer a single question. I am happy in the knowledge that I know you simply can't and that I can highlight these biblical anomalies.
PS. "You said" many things that I have queried if not debunked on this thread.
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@Melcharaz
I asked you does she have a point?None.
Do Christians have a point when they also claim that Covid-19 was sent from god, but for different reasons?
“Is God unhappy with mankind? According to legends and believers in God, a time will come when the supplications, prayers and worship by mankind will be rejected by God".
" “The sages among mankind believe that God will be unhappy when justice will be denied, when atrocities against mankind will increase, rulers will usurp their powers and suppress their subjects, courts will shun justice.
“The Holy Scriptures from the Old Testament, Bible to Quran, have verses warning about the punishment of God. History tells us of the storm of Noah that drowned His earlier creation. But those who firmly believe in God also believe that God is most kind.
" “The sages among mankind believe that God will be unhappy when justice will be denied, when atrocities against mankind will increase, rulers will usurp their powers and suppress their subjects, courts will shun justice.
“The Holy Scriptures from the Old Testament, Bible to Quran, have verses warning about the punishment of God. History tells us of the storm of Noah that drowned His earlier creation. But those who firmly believe in God also believe that God is most kind.
This seems to me no more far fetched than what the Muslim believes. Only the reason is different. I wonder if this is god is gathering his 144,000?
It goes on to say:
"“And if He turns away from mankind, Satan will take over. Satan will be helping all wrongdoers. And only God can stop Satan.”
I don't understand. If Satan/Devil /Lucifer "will" take over - meaning he hasn't yet, then who has been running the place up until this point?
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@Melcharaz
It is impossible to know God when you dont even take time to learn OF God.
Ok, By "you" I am assuming you are talking about the Muslim woman in the video above . As whether I believe in god or have not bothered "to know god" is irrelevant to the question. This Muslim knows god does she not. She believes that god sent Covid 19 and that it is all gods way of turning the world towards the faith of Isalm. I asked you does she have a point?
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Evil as in disruption of peace or calamity, God didnt create the concept of evil when lucifer first lifted himself up in pride.
Who was Lucifer? And could you go to this thread , https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4041/satan-the-serpent-of-eden-and-revelation
I am sure i will find your input valuable.
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@Dr.Franklin
If the Devil represents darknessBut does he? And what is your evidence.what do you think?
Irrelevant . Can you not just attempt an answer.
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@RationalMadman
Why did he even bother to create it in the first place. Come to that, why did god create anything at all, ever, in the first place!You are agreeing with me that God is fundamentally amoral or upon closer inspection extravagently immoral
Yes, I agree
While also extravagently merciful.
Not at all. I have not seen any evidence for mercy from this psychotic megalomaniac to be honest. In fact, when his own son asked to relieved of the burden " cup" of the excruciating death by crucifixion, he totally ignored his only begotten sons plea for relief of his suffering.
“Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.”Luke 22:42
(a contradiction that leads to people confusing God for being 'good').
I have seen no good at all come by way of the god that the Christians adopted as their own. Which has led to all sorts of confusion for them. One minute god is a murdering psychopath for the hell of it and on the other Jesus says words to the effect that " your father loves you". You cannon get more confused than that.
God doesn't have emotions or empathy, we are toys to it/him/her.
Yes, as I have stated many ,many times here, we are ten a penny to this god. And the proof of that is the story of job. God sanctioned the murder of all of jobs children , but everything was OK in the end because "the lord god gave" him some more.
That is what I wanted admitted [...............................................] about the hypocrisy of "good God" Theism.
You will never see or hear a Christian admit god can do evil or wrong. Even though god himself admits to being a Jealous god of war who created evil.They will always scratch around for anything that excuses there gods, god -awful behavior.
The only thing I can suggest is for you to keep picking apart the scriptures themselves. These scriptures, so revered by Christians are riddled with ambiguous half stories, lies and contradictions that anyone can read for themselves , but are continually defended by the Christian who hasn't bothered reading them and studying for themselves, but instead have allowed themselves to steered away from the more awkward and controversial chapters and verses and only steered towards what their elders and priests believe show their god in only a good light .
I noticed some years ago that our RE teacher only ever spoke of Jesus and the New Testament and now I know why. These theist cannot discuss the bible without preaching the bible. If you disagree with them they will accuse you of "not wanting to know the truth" among many other false accusations.
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@Melcharaz
Just more conspiracy.
But does she have a point? The lord - after all, works in mysterious ways, I have been told.
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@RoderickSpode
You left out the quote where I asked you to define the Hebrew word "ra".
And responding to a question with a question of your own is not and never will be an answer to the original question. This is the usual a piss poor response from someone who has found himself painted into a corner.
And your added flippant remark about it not mattering to you, is also not surprising. You have simply ran out of argument.
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@RationalMadman
Why has your God allowed Coronavirus to emerge and spread?
Why did he even bother to create it in the first place. Come to that, why did god create anything at all, ever, in the first place!
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@Dr.Franklin
If the Devil represents darkness
But does he? And what is your evidence.
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@ATroubledMan
"He could have made everyone believers by His will."
Or by the sword, like in the good ole' days.
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How our reactions around the world to a flu virus is somehow equated to the world embracing Islam. And we all have had " a change of heart" .towards islam
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@RoderickSpode
So was John the Baptist baptised or not?Like I said, the Bible doesn't reveal that info.
yes it does.
I think the problem is you're trying to turn this into a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"
No I am not. Stop looking for a get out. if you don't know then simply say so. stop looking for excuses and trying to blame me for your own biblical ignorance. You have stated to me that John the Baptist was "confused and didn't recognise Jesus at first. I have shown you to be wrong and that John recognised him immediately.>>>>> John1 : 29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world"<<<<<<.
And it was the Egg that came before the chicken anyone knows that.
Water Baptism may not have been required of him. Are you of the opinion that if a man stranded on a deserted island becomes a believer, he cannot ultimately be saved because there's no one else on the island to Baptize him?
No. Please stop the convolution and misrepresenting what I have clearly asked. It was a simply question that I have eventually answered for you. Jesus makes it clear that John was baptised . Matthew 21:25
John1 : 29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”;yet appeared confused telling Jesus that he - Jesus- should be baptising him - John, Why?And so far you haven't explained what is was that caused John to even believe that Jesus should be baptizing him in the first place?Matthew 3:13Sorry to try and answer your question with another question, but do you see any connection here?
No. So just answer the question and stop digressing , please.
Imagine a priest in a Catholic church confessional booth,[.......................]
This has nothing at all to do with WHY John the Baptist believed that it was Jesus who should be baptising him. Just say you don't know and stop trying to make things up on the hoof. They are piss poor scenarios that go absolutely nowhere.
Not John "the greatest man" born of woman and ""more than a prophet" .Being the greatest man didn't mean he was perfect. Moses was the most humblest man. He still had his problems.
So you keep saying, but if you are going to keep falling back on that old chestnut of an excuse every time your stumped to answer pretty straightforward question, then you alone throw the whole of the scriptures into disrepute. Including its authors and everything they are believed to have wrote.
So that is a non answer then. You don't know why John refused Jesus a baptism and you are struggling to explain why John believed that it was supposed to be the other way around and that Jesus should baptise him.John did not refuse to Baptize Jesus. And if I'm struggling, it's just trying to explain it in a way you'll understand.
Now you are refuting what the bible itself states. Lets have another look shall we; In Matthew 3:14 and depending on which bible one chooses, states that John either tried to ; deter , prevent, hinder, prevent ,or forbid Jesus to be baptised.
"But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me"?
No, that would be John the baptist himself who turned out to be the skeptic when locked up in Herod's cell, wasn't it.?"When John, who was in prison, he'd heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”.Matthew 11:1-3Really!?Yes. [.......] Are you still having a problem with the notion of John although being the greatest, was still not perfect?
If anyone is having problems it is you. And your full blown denials of the bleedin` obvious. Putting the biblical fact aside that JESUS HIMSELF had said "John was the greatest of all born of woman". John seen the descending dove. John kicked with excitement in the womb. He had recognized Jesus as the messiah immediately, and John was told directly by god that this - Jesus- was the one to come, saying, "this is my son and I love him and I am well pleased” Matthew 3:17
Well we don't know that, but if that was the case, why then would he even think that Jesus should baptise him a second time?If John thought he needed to be baptized a second time (like if he somehow knew in the womb he was Baptized in the Holy Spirit), don't you think he would have had a fellow believer Baptize him (to make it ceremonially official)?
Then why even wait all those years for Jesus to come onto the scene to ask Jesus. And again, what ever caused him to believe it should have been the other way around in the first place.
It's apparent that what John meant was, if anyone should be doing the baptizing between you and I, I should be the one baptized by you.
Well it was "apparent" to John was it. Or have you forgotten already that John either tried to ; deter , prevent, hinder, prevent ,or forbid Jesus to be baptised.
"But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me"?Matthew 3:14
And is there a single piece of biblical evidence to support that? and you appear to have skirted your own explanation where you state:"It is a symbol of being washed, cleansed, and made pure". So this hardly explains my question of why the Only Son of god would need to be cleansed, washed and made pure, does it.Yes, I do think there's evidence to support that. Jesus' life was all about obedience to the Father.Phillippians 2:8And being found in the fashion of a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death—even the death of the cross.
Sorry but that pointless and irrelevant verse goes nowhere in answering why the son of god would need to be "washed, cleansed, and made pure".
I don't think I made any reference to John's mentioning of water during Baptism.
Maybe not John, but the scripture certainly does,.doesn't it. But you want to insist that it has nothing to do with washing away sins , yet i have shown you biblical evidence to the contrary. Washing does involve water.
Six times you mention baptism /abidance. Yet the gospels NEVER MENTION OBEDIENCE along with baptism , they tell us something entirely different. I did read your op, but have you read the scriptures?And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)“Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “(Acts 2:38)“John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judeaand all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:4-5)“And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” (Luke 3:3)You see? it has EVERYTHING to do with forgiveness of sins and washing away sins. Not a single mention of "obedience".You gave 3 verses that are direct commands to be Baptized, and you don't think obedience plays a part here? Wow! Was this apparent command actually optional?
Never mind being flippant. Those verses tell us all what baptism is all about and there is no mention of ` come be obedient and have your sins washed away in the water".
You just make up crap and don't expect to be challenged on what you preach. You don't like it when someone has the audacity to challenge you or your scripture. this is a religion discussion forum not a preachers pulpit.
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@RoderickSpode
What ever are you talking about man?Lamentations 3:38 King James Version (KJV)38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? <<<<<<<<<<<< this is a question asked and not a statement. It is saying that ` both good and evil come from god ` no matter how much you - predictably- want to change it and wish it to mean something other than what it actually states.More of your numerous false and word twisting accusations.
Oh stop it! If anyone here can be accused of " word twisting" it is without question YOU and other Christians here. The meaning is very clear in Lamentations 3:38 . It is the equivalent of me asking you ' is my name not Stephen`? with the answer being a very clear and OBVIOUS yes. Lamentations 3:38 is a very clear rhetorical question. That is a question that simply doesn't require an answer. ie a question where the answer is already know and accepted.
I don't wish it to mean anything.
Of course you do. You , and other Christians often " wish" different meanings and definitions into the scripture when they are embarrassing. You say on other threads that "kill" doesn't mean kill, when god orders killing. And that "all " doesn't mean all when it is pointed out that included is all things are your gods own faults.
I would suggest not jumping ahead of ourselves here you claim prove that God created evil as the opposite of good in the moral sense.
No I have made it clear that I believe that your god created evil period. I have offered the proof needed to support my claim from the bible and I have given you examples of how faulty your gods creation actually is. And it is not as good as your god claims, is it?
You on the other hand, in predicted apologetic fashion have desperately attempted to re-write the scripture and re define what certain words in the scripture mean. You have claimed that when the bible says god created "all" things, that it doesn't actually mean "all things". You have claimed "kill" doesn't mean kill and now you are trying to claim that when god himself states that he is indeed the creator of evil, you are saying evil in this case doesn't mean evil.
You will be telling me next that I haven't read the bible (oh, you have already done that haven't you) and then telling me that I do not understand what is written therein.
I will tell you what i know about Christians and the bible. You Christians have had over 2000 years to perfect your answers to all of these ambiguous biblical half stories. What you haven't taken into consideration is that people in the 21st century can actually read the bible for themselves instead of having it be read out to them and interpreted for them. Christians on the other hand have been for millennia steered away from the problematic verses and stories and guided towards the verses that they believe show a loving and forgiving god.
The biggest problem that Christians have created for themselves was to adopt a ancient god from an ancient culture that they knew or understood absolutely nothing about.
You want it all ways. The god that you adopted does at least throw his hands up to what he created and who it is that is responsible for ALL evil. It was your gods sons after all who "came down and raped the daughters of men", but punished mankind for the deed. Its a bit like the Muslim culture where the raped women is punished for being raped. This is the maniac that you adopted for your god.
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@BrotherDThomas
FAUXLAW'S CONTINUED IRRELATIVE TO THE TOPIC QUOTE
This is what happens when they are caught on the back foot and have painted themselves into a corner , Brother. It is a diversionary tactic used for many reasons. (1) They run out of answers. (2) Burying embarrassing statements. (3) Burying schoolboy errors. (4) Burying posts that caught them out blatantly lying. (5) Start unnecessary and irrelevant argument for the sake of burying all the above reasons mentioned above.
And, as you clearly have pointed out a few times now, they will persistently post anything that is clearly irrelevant to the topic.(just look at this thread alone). This is the one they get away with often as they know that flagging irrelevant posts will attract the accusations of you "stalking" a member (even on your own thread) and worse having an "obsession" with the reported member .
The reason is that to simply flag persistent irrelevant posts one can't show the irrelevancy simply by flagging it. The mod has to read all or most of the thread and as they are short for time and one cannot say why one is flagging a certain post, it is almost an impossibility for the mod to detect. Abuse it pretty straight forward, but the deceit of irrelevant posting, is, understandably, harder for a mod to detect.
There is also the role reversal tactic. This is the deceitful snide tactic of accusing you of what it is that they themselves are doing.
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@RoderickSpode
I am still waiting for you to direct me to the "believers who've been giving answers here" concerning the question of the topic: the origins of evil.I have given my answer, but, not surprisingly, it is a answer that isn't accepted by the Christian apologist.:God said - "I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7. There is also Lamentations 3:38 saying both evil and good come from god.Tell me, would a god claim to be the creator of evil if he wasn't?The "evil" in both those verses "ra" have 2 basic meanings in the Hebrew translation. Natural or moral. The first 2 words provided in my Concordance is adversity, and affliction. Either of those 2 would be a sufficient description. So rather than God creating evil (or immorality), creating a form of judgment would be what's suggested.
What ever are you talking about man?
Lamentations 3:38 King James Version (KJV)
38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? <<<<<<<<<<<< this is a question asked and not a statement. It is saying that ` both good and evil come from god ` no matter how much you - predictably- want to change it and wish it to mean something other than what it actually states.
If you don't accept that translation for those 2 specific verses, here's another example being used with the same Hebrew word.
Genesis 44:34 King James Version (KJV)
34 For how shall I go up to my father, and the lad be not with me? lest peradventure I see the evil that shall come on my father.
34 For how shall I go up to my father, and the lad be not with me? lest peradventure I see the evil that shall come on my father.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ does not explain the origins of Evil.
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@ATroubledMan
Sorry, you're right about that.
About what exactly?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I suppose the better question would be, are Satan, Lucifer and the Devil all regarded as one entity by Christians?Yes, most do..Seeing these three as one and the same is not based on the Bible obviously (the name Lucifer is in the Bible but not as a synonym for the devil and it is debatable whether Satan is the devil)
Yes I have already suggested as much at post # 20. This is what caused me to rephrase the question. And it got a result from you at least - an atheist, I assume.
I don't want to appear to be being pedantic but what evidence do you have that "most" Christians recognise Satan, Lucifer and the Devil to be all regarded as one single entity?
But what did you not like about bro-T's quotes?
??? I don't know what I have wrote to provoke such an assumption from you..
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@zedvictor4
I will check it out and report back.
You don't have to. Its not compulsory. I watched it and found it to be highly entertaining. I am not too bothered about what you have to report vic, I just hope you find it as entertaining as I did at the time and still do to this day.
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@RoderickSpode
other than the believers who've been giving answers here, .
I am still waiting for you to direct me to the "believers who've been giving answers here" concerning the question of the topic: the origins of evil.
I have given my answer, but, not surprisingly, it is a answer that isn't accepted by the Christian apologist.:
God said - "I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7. There is also Lamentations 3:38 saying both evil and good come from god.
Tell me, would a god claim to be the creator of evil if he wasn't?
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@zedvictor4
I must admit, that watching church on T.V. can be entertaining.The more flamboyant the better.
As far as TV church entertainment goes, they will have to go a long way to beat James Randi exposing ` born again ` Peter Popoff
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I am not sure whether any English translations use the word snake.
Well you don't seem too sure about anything concerning Satan or the bible or even Satan in the bible come to that.. But I sincerely appreciate your input and I thank you.
Anyway, it was more names and titles<<<<< that I was after such as "Lucifer" (which isn't in the bible) yet often refereed to by Christians as if he was yet never seem able to explain why this is when asked. Like many other things they cannot explain when pushed.
Christians as I understand it believe that the Devil aka Satan written of in the bible is also the same entity called Lucifer but who isn't addressed as Lucifer at all the the scriptures. Yet they are all spoken of as if they are all one and the same entity.
I suppose the better question would be, are Satan, Lucifer and the Devil all regarded as one entity by Christians?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I even gave references...
You did. Thank you for taking the time. And now can you reference them in the bible?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Anyone else concerned?
Nope. Not me.
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@zedvictor4
Plague is here an apparently pestilence is on the way
`Many a true word` and all that.
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@zedvictor4
People write things in books, that other people then repeat.[...............] I very much enjoy discussing such issues.
And I quite enjoy discussing what it is that people are repeating and also what people have written in books, including and especially the book titled the Bible.
I treat it just as I would any other ancient tome.
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@Melcharaz
Satan is a spirit and spirits are capable of affecting and even possessing animals as well as humans.
doesn't quite give me what i'm looking for.
Just as he is described as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, or the thief which comes to steal, kill and destroy. 1 peter 5:8 john 10:8-11. Revelation 12:3-4 and 13:4
And neither does that. So is all I have is Satan and the ancient serpent.
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@Athias
I don't think I made any reference to John's mentioning of water during Baptism.I never said that you did. The association of water to Baptism is germane to this thread's subject, isn't it?
Well it is titled :- Water Baptism: What's the big deal?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
So then, Discipulus_Didicit. Staying with the topic, do you know of any other titles or names attributed to this being known in the bible as Satan and the ancient serpent?
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@zedvictor4
So how do you know what a god preaches?
The bible and I think that should past tense i.e once preached- according to theist
When have you ever witnessed a god preaching?
Never, but I am not into your semantics vic. In the bible, which as you know is a book, god says quite a lot. I know this because I have this very book. It is a real book and I can read what all of these mythical or not characters have to say and what they have supposed to have done. I can't see your point in going over old ground here vic. I appreciate your don't accept any of it and believe it all to be mythical but as I have explained, the bible is a book like any other and is up for discussion, ....in my book.
I refer you to my earlier post#25
Discussions of many so called "mythical" subjects and fantasies are discussed and studied all around the world in every school collage and university. Billions of Books have been written on these "mythical" beings and what is believed about them by different peoples past and present and by theists and atheist alike.
Shakespeare's works are for ever boring pupils and students all around the world, they are not true, factual stories. But they are discussed and studied even in non speaking English countries.
Are you telling me that these mythical gods and their individual religions should never be discussed at all, anywhere, ever?
It is my contention that these subjects should be discussed weather or not one believes "gods" existed or not. The point you are missing is that millions of people over millions of years have worshiped these beings in one form or another and millions simply do not believe as such but it doesn't stop them discussing these subjects. Theists write and speak as if they existed or still exist. It is up to the atheist then, should he wish to , to challenge what it is that these sycophantic fawning theist actually believe in .
If you wish to discuss everything else but the topic of my thread, it would be decent and polite of you if you started your own thread. Rather than continue to repeat yourself over and over thereby clogging up my thread with your well known opinions on why no one should be discussing god or the bible..
Incidentally. It may have actually escaped your notice that while I agree that there is no real and factual evidence for the Christian god ever existing, the bible does indeed itself exist and, there-for it is up for discussion. As would be, and is, any book discussed in book clubs AND internet forums around the globe.
But it is my guess that you have never even considered this although here you are, discussing and opineing to what shouldn't be discussed.
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@RoderickSpode
So was John the Baptist baptised or not?Like I said, the Bible doesn't reveal that info.
yes it does.
I think the problem is you're trying to turn this into a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"
No I am not. Stop looking for a get out. if you don't know then simply say so. stop looking for excuses and trying to blame me for your own biblical ignorance. You have stated to me that John the Baptist was "confused and didn't recognise Jesus at first. I have shown you to be wrong and that John recognised him immediately.>>>>> John1 : 29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world"<<<<<<.
And it was the Egg that came before the chicken anyone knows that.
Water Baptism may not have been required of him. Are you of the opinion that if a man stranded on a deserted island becomes a believer, he cannot ultimately be saved because there's no one else on the island to Baptize him?
No. Please stop the convolution and misrepresenting what I have clearly asked. It was a simply question that I have eventually answered for you. Jesus makes it clear that John was baptised . Matthew 21:25
John1 : 29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”;yet appeared confused telling Jesus that he - Jesus- should be baptising him - John, Why?And so far you haven't explained what is was that caused John to even believe that Jesus should be baptizing him in the first place?Matthew 3:13Sorry to try and answer your question with another question, but do you see any connection here?
No. So just answer the question and stop digressing , please.
Imagine a priest in a Catholic church confessional booth,[.......................]
This has nothing at all to do with WHY John the Baptist believed that it was Jesus who should be baptising him. Just say you don't know and stop trying to make things up on the hoof. They are piss poor scenarios that go absolutely nowhere.
Not John "the greatest man" born of woman and ""more than a prophet" .Being the greatest man didn't mean he was perfect. Moses was the most humblest man. He still had his problems.
So you keep saying, but if you are going to keep falling back on that old chestnut of an excuse every time your stumped to answer pretty straightforward question, then you alone throw the whole of the scriptures into disrepute. Including its authors and everything they are believed to have wrote.
So that is a non answer then. You don't know why John refused Jesus a baptism and you are struggling to explain why John believed that it was supposed to be the other way around and that Jesus should baptise him.John did not refuse to Baptize Jesus. And if I'm struggling, it's just trying to explain it in a way you'll understand.
Now you are refuting what the bible itself states. Lets have another look shall we; In Matthew 3:14 and depending on which bible one chooses, states that John either tried to ; deter , prevent, hinder, prevent ,or forbid Jesus to be baptised.
"But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me"?
No, that would be John the baptist himself who turned out to be the skeptic when locked up in Herod's cell, wasn't it.?"When John, who was in prison, he'd heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”.Matthew 11:1-3Really!?Yes. [.......] Are you still having a problem with the notion of John although being the greatest, was still not perfect?
If anyone is having problems it is you. And your full blown denials of the bleedin` obvious. Putting the biblical fact aside that JESUS HIMSELF had said "John was the greatest of all born of woman". John seen the descending dove. John kicked with excitement in the womb. He had recognized Jesus as the messiah immediately, and John was told directly by god that this - Jesus- was the one to come, saying, "this is my son and I love him and I am well pleased” Matthew 3:17
Well we don't know that, but if that was the case, why then would he even think that Jesus should baptise him a second time?If John thought he needed to be baptized a second time (like if he somehow knew in the womb he was Baptized in the Holy Spirit), don't you think he would have had a fellow believer Baptize him (to make it ceremonially official)?
Then why even wait all those years for Jesus to come onto the scene to ask Jesus. And again, what ever caused him to believe it should have been the other way around in the first place.
It's apparent that what John meant was, if anyone should be doing the baptizing between you and I, I should be the one baptized by you.
Well it was "apparent" to John was it. Or have you forgotten already that John either tried to ; deter , prevent, hinder, prevent ,or forbid Jesus to be baptised.
"But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me"?Matthew 3:14
And is there a single piece of biblical evidence to support that? and you appear to have skirted your own explanation where you state:"It is a symbol of being washed, cleansed, and made pure". So this hardly explains my question of why the Only Son of god would need to be cleansed, washed and made pure, does it.Yes, I do think there's evidence to support that. Jesus' life was all about obedience to the Father.Phillippians 2:8And being found in the fashion of a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death—even the death of the cross.
Sorry but that pointless and irrelevant verse goes nowhere in answering why the son of god would need to be "washed, cleansed, and made pure".
I don't think I made any reference to John's mentioning of water during Baptism.
Maybe not John, but the scripture certainly does,.doesn't it. But you want to insist that it has nothing to do with washing away sins , yet i have shown you biblical evidence to the contrary. Washing does involve water.
Six times you mention baptism /abidance. Yet the gospels NEVER MENTION OBEDIENCE along with baptism , they tell us something entirely different. I did read your op, but have you read the scriptures?And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)“Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “(Acts 2:38)“John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judeaand all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:4-5)“And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” (Luke 3:3)You see? it has EVERYTHING to do with forgiveness of sins and washing away sins. Not a single mention of "obedience".You gave 3 verses that are direct commands to be Baptized, and you don't think obedience plays a part here? Wow! Was this apparent command actually optional?
Never mind being flippant. Those verses tell us all what baptism is all about and there is no mention of ` come be obedient and have your sins washed away in the water".
You just make up crap and don't expect to be challenged on what you preach. You don't like it when someone has the audacity to challenge you or your scripture. this is a religion discussion forum not a preachers pulpit.
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@RoderickSpode
But lets stick to the actual point of the topic .Who baptised John the Baptist?Where did John the Baptist get his authority to baptise anyone?First off, I'm wondering if you read my post, or are just responding to a thread about baptism using common skeptic questions.
So you don't know the answers to those questions on this subject but just happen to know what baptism is all about; " obedience" according to only you.
The Bible doesn't get into specifics as far as who may have baptized him in the ceremonial sense.
So was John the Baptist baptised or not?
Scripture does point out that he was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb.
It does. It also says that he - while in the womb - John recognised Jesus and kicked with excitement.
And the reason I'm wondering if you actually read the O.P.,
I did. it was to do with what YOU believe and your opinions about baptism.
If John was not ceremonially baptized, then his position would be similar to the repentant thief on the cross.
But he had some kind of authority to perform this ritual. He had been doing it some time before Jesus came to him.
his baptism may have occurred while in the womb.
Well we don't know that, but if that was the case, why then would he even think that Jesus should baptise him a second time?
Can you explain why the " only begotten Son,"i.e. the son of GOD and born of a pure virgin would need to be cleansed and "made pure" symbolically or otherwise? John 3:16. Thus, Jesus was acting as a model of obedience. And again, others may have more insight.
And is there a single piece of biblical evidence to support that? and you appear to have skirted your own explanation where you state:
"It is a symbol of being washed, cleansed, and made pure". So this hardly explains my question of why the Only Son of god would need to be cleansed, washed and made pure, does it.
Why was John the baptist "the greatest ever born of woman" so confused as to whom should be baptising whom?John the Baptist was still human. The confusion would be hardly startling. He recognized who Jesus was to some degree when he leaped in thewomb.
. John recognized Jesus in the womb because - according to you - he may have been filled with the holy spirit but still appears confused; but not about who Jesus is when faced with Jesus the man, but about who should be baptizing who. The bible makes it clear that John the Baptist recognized Jesus the man right away, he wasn't confused about it at all. He recognised him as soon as he cast eyes on him saying ;
John1 : 29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”;
yet appeared confused telling Jesus that he - Jesus- should be baptising him - John, Why?
And so far you haven't explained what is was that caused John to even believe that Jesus should be baptizing him in the first place?Matthew 3:13
Who wouldn't be confused (or overwhelmed) under those circumstances?
Not John "the greatest man" born of woman and ""more than a prophet" .
Why had John forbid Jesus to be baptized in the first place? Matthew 3:14 "But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee,..."https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+3%3A13-17&version=KJVCan you explain why John the Baptist said Jesus should baptise him?I don't think this was an issue of legalism, e.g., the rule book on water baptism states that the Son of God has to baptize me, or we're breaking the rules. I would refer back to my statement of John the Baptist simply being overwhelmed at the prospect. And of course others may have more insight.
So that is a non answer then. You don't know why John refused Jesus a baptism and you are struggling to explain why John believed that it was supposed to be the other way around and that Jesus should baptise him.
Six times you mention baptism /abidance. Yet the gospels NEVER MENTION OBEDIENCE along with baptism , they tell us something entirely different. I did read your op, but have you read the scriptures?
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)
“Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “(Acts 2:38)
“John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:4-5)
“And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” (Luke 3:3)
You see? it has EVERYTHING to do with forgiveness of sins and washing away sins. Not a single mention of "obedience".
or are just responding to a thread about baptism using common skeptic questions.
No, that would be John the baptist himself who turned out to be the skeptic when locked up in Herod's cell, wasn't it.?
"When John, who was in prison, he'd heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”.Matthew 11:1-3
Really!?
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But lets stick to the actual point of the topic .Who baptised John the Baptist?Where did John the Baptist get his authority to baptise anyone?First off, I'm wondering if you read my post, or are just responding to a thread about baptism using common skeptic questions.
So you don't know that answers to questions on this subject but just happen to know what baptism is all about; " obedience" according to only you.
The Bible doesn't get into specifics as far as who may have baptized him in the ceremonial sense.
So was John the Baptist baptised or not?
Scripture does point out that he was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb.
It does. It also says that he - while in the womb - John recognised Jesus and kicked with excitement.
And the reason I'm wondering if you actually read the O.P.,
I did. it was to do with what YOU believe and your opinions about baptism.
If John was not ceremonially baptized, then his position would be similar to the repentant thief on the cross.
But he had some kind of authority to perform this ritual. He had been doing it some time before Jesus came to him.
his baptism may have occurred while in the womb.
Well we don't know that, but if that was the case, why then would he even think that Jesus should baptise him a second time?
Can you explain why the " only begotten Son,"i.e. the son of GOD and born of a pure virgin would need to be cleansed and "made pure" symbolically or otherwise? John 3:16. Thus, Jesus was acting as a model of obedience. And again, others may have more insight.
And is there a single piece of biblical evidence to support that? and you appear to have skirted your own explanation where you state:
"It is a symbol of being washed, cleansed, and made pure". So this hardly explains my question of why the Only Son of god would need to be cleansed, washed and made pure, does it.
Why was John the baptist "the greatest ever born of woman" so confused as to whom should be baptising whom?John the Baptist was still human. The confusion would be hardly startling. He recognized who Jesus was to some degree when he leaped in thewomb.
. John recognized Jesus in the womb because - according to you - he may have been filled with the holy spirit but still appears confused; but not about who Jesus is when faced with Jesus the man, but about who should be baptizing who. The bible makes it clear that John the Baptist recognized Jesus the man right away, he wasn't confused about it at all. He recognised him as soon as he cast eyes on him saying ;
John1 : 29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”;
yet appeared confused telling Jesus that he - Jesus- should be baptising him - John, Why?
And so far you haven't explained what is was that caused John to even believe that Jesus should be baptizing him in the first place?Matthew 3:13
Who wouldn't be confused (or overwhelmed) under those circumstances?
Not John "the greatest man" born of woman and ""more than a prophet" .
Why had John forbid Jesus to be baptized in the first place? Matthew 3:14 "But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee,..."https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+3%3A13-17&version=KJVCan you explain why John the Baptist said Jesus should baptise him?I don't think this was an issue of legalism, e.g., the rule book on water baptism states that the Son of God has to baptize me, or we're breaking the rules. I would refer back to my statement of John the Baptist simply being overwhelmed at the prospect. And of course others may have more insight.
So that is a non answer then. You don't know why John refused Jesus a baptism and you are struggling to explain why John believed that it was supposed to be the other way around and that Jesus should baptise him.
Six times you mention baptism /abidance. Yet the gospels NEVER MENTION OBEDIENCE along with baptism , they tell us something entirely different. I did read your op, but have you read the scriptures?
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)
“Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “(Acts 2:38)
“John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:4-5)
“And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” (Luke 3:3)
You see? it has EVERYTHING to do with forgiveness of sins and washing away sins. Not a single mention of "obedience".
or are just responding to a thread about baptism using common skeptic questions.
No, that would be John the baptist himself who turned out to be the skeptic when locked up in Herod's cell, wasn't it.?
"When John, who was in prison, he'd heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”.Matthew 11:1-3
Really!?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Either I am remembering that previous thread incorrectly or you are using the word 'unanimous' totally wrong.
I stand corrected.
Maybe I should have said nearly all agree that the Eden serpent was the same being that is written of in Revelation: the “the ancient serpent” Satan. And that it was certainly unanimous among the Christians here.
I just had a quick look and you feature only two short posts.
You are welcome to state otherwise if you don't agree. I would post up the link thread but I wouldn't want to be accused of "thread contamination" and the thread contamination rules are very vague. . It was titled "No One Can EVER Answer This Question Satisfactorily ", but irrelevant to this thread.
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@RoderickSpode
It was space saving. But no one has addressed anything concerning the question. and certainly not you.
You have claimed that:
"But as far as what you're interested in, it's obvious not in finding answers, but making a statement to convince somebody other than the believers who've been giving answers here, and at least in one other thread".
Please note the bold underlined above. Now direct me to the "believers who've been giving answers here" concerning the question of the topic, the origins of evil. "The believers here" that you mention, that includes you have avoided the question and as predicted posted other irrelevant nonsense as if this somehow explains and answers the question.
I have put forward what the bible actually; states as the answer to this question, but again, as predicted in post #1 this biblical evidence is not acceptable to said "believers" but they still offer no alternative and neither have YOU.
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@RoderickSpode
It's definitely true that many church folk have been duped. Here's the problem; some of the dupesters were, or are, atheists.
Yet somehow managed to find themselves in the position and have the authority to baptist (dupe) others. Strange it is that although the dupester is in this position one has to ask where he himself got his authority to dupe/baptise. It says a lot about "spiritual cleansing" and being received by god, and god knowing his own, doesn't it?
But lets stick to the actual point of the topic .
Who baptised John the Baptist?
Where did John the Baptist get his authority to baptise anyone?
It is a symbol of being washed, cleansed, and made pure
Can you explain why the " only begotten Son,"i.e. the son of GOD and born of a pure virgin would need to be cleansed and "made pure" symbolically or otherwise? John 3:16
Why was John the baptist "the greatest ever born of woman" so confused as to whom should be baptising whom?
What caused John to believe that Jesus should be baptizing him in the first place? Matthew 3:13
Why had John forbid Jesus to be baptized in the first place? Matthew 3:14 "But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee,..."https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+3%3A13-17&version=KJV
Can you explain why John the Baptist said Jesus should baptise him?
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I asked on a thread sometime ago ".Who was the serpent that had tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden."
It was unanimous that this being was also the same being spoken of in the book of Revelation know as Satan and “the ancient serpent” (Revelation 12:9, 20:2).
Can anyone tell me by what other titles/names that the bible refers to this being as?
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@zedvictor4
We make an assumption and therefore expect a god to comply with our assumption.
I expect a god to practice what he preaches.
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@ATroubledMan
And if you read Matthew 18:19, you'll find you need at least two people in agreement with what you say.
So I agree with the Brother and I am not sure that Mathew said it was mandatory, obligatory or compulsory for the "need of two others",
here we are
Matthew 18:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
So in typical form the Christian after painting himself into a corner attempts to rewrite or inject words into the scripture that are not, and have never been there.
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@RoderickSpode
other than the believers who've been giving answers here,
Really! OK so remind mind me-I must have missed it. Where is it that YOU explain the origins of evil on this thread.
And I notice yet again you have somehow missed post # three, where I have actually addressed all of your pointless and irrelevant comments including your predictable and irrelevant verses from James I. So just for you, here is is again:
There's an obvious problem with this topic as usual, because of your ranting and overzealous posturing you ask questions then you leave no room for an answer.
No one is stopping you answering.
You seem to have had no problem and have found many words in response but nothing that explains or answers the question that should be pretty straight - forward for all believers. You, I am assuming, do not lay the blame for the existence of evil at gods door, if that is the case, then who? is all I am asking.
how did I know you were going to roll out the old Isaiah passage lol?
I don't know but I knew 100% that you wouldn't. "LOL"
You ask believers a question then you go on about why and how they can't answer that question lol,
Lol away sunshine. Is all I have politely asked is those that are interested not clog up this thread with quotes and verses from the scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with the question. If any quoted verses are relevant, I will indeed take them into consideration before debunking them with your own scripture or simply agreeing with what has been produced and offered as an explanation.
But I'll say it again so there's not room for confusion.
I agree. There certainly isn't. Considering that once again god himself tells us the it was he who created "ALL evil" along with ALL other things in existence. And you have the brass balls to tell me I haven't read the scriptures.
As for all your mumbo jumbo about God creating mental illnesses and "diseases" and what not, again those are not things so they are not included as things that God created.
Just as I predicted. You will only claim that your god created only the fluffy nice things. So let us take just one piece of my "mumbo jumbo" then.
The bible tells us that god created " the heavens and the earth.Genesis 1:1 It is also said just 31 short verses after that "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. ." 1:31
But it wasn't good at all was it. The earth is riddled with faults; (they will be the causes you mentioned). The earth is also stretched and pulled in all directions when certain planets in the heavens that the bible says he also created, line up and their proximity is closer to earth. YES, this was your gods creation that the bible says he was happy with and all of it was "good".
Here is a list of earth quakes that have happened on the earth that god is said to have created, faults and all. I haven't included the body count.
^^^^^^^^^^ shows that your god obviously has no control whatsoever over his own creation.
The scripture you have reproduced above doesn't explain where evil originated, it simply recognizes that evil exists. This is a perfect example of what I mean by posting IRRELEVANT scripture to explain away the origins of evil. But the thing here you see, is that you have quite purposefully have left out what god himself has to say about the origin of evil:
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version
" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".
This is not to mention the other verses where god throws his hand up to possessing and creating "evil".
God it is also said in the scripture sent an evil spirit to Saul, that he had created.
And ;
“Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household".
God said - "I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7. There is also Lamentations 3:38 saying both evil and good come from god.
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@Tyran_Osaur
it is impossible to address the topic with factual evidence.
I was asking for evidence from the actual bible and it a fact that the bible exists.
As explained. If we are expected to take the bible at face value and to be the truth, then I am asking for biblical evidence for where it was that evil originated. Christians deny evil originated from god, but are shy to offer an alternative for its origin.
Evil is recognised to exist by these biblical authors and the characters therein, Christians accept that there is evil to but what they point blank refuse to accept is that evil is indeed a creation of god........ when god himself admits in the bible to creating evil. Isaiah 45:7 No one else in the bible makes this claim.
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Anyway, getting back on track, just a few examples of this Christian god obsession with killing.
Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of acapital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Mention another God? Kill em! (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy (simply speaking). (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT) (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
God Kills Some More (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
You Have to Kill (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
The Danites Kill the Next Town (Joshua 19:47 NAB)
God Promises More Killing (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
God Kills an Extended Family (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)
Mass Murder (Judges 20:48 NAB)
The Angel of Death (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill the Family of Sinners. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster’s Bible)
Kill Followers of Other Religions (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Kill All of Babylon (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Micah Kills a Whole Town. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of thisslaughter in verse 6.)
Death to the Rape Victim promoted/commanded (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
Rape of Female Captives promoted (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Exodus 32:27 God himself murders about 3,000people.
Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of acapital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Mention another God? Kill em! (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy (simply speaking). (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT) (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
God Kills Some More (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
You Have to Kill (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
The Danites Kill the Next Town (Joshua 19:47 NAB)
God Promises More Killing (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
God Kills an Extended Family (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)
Mass Murder (Judges 20:48 NAB)
The Angel of Death (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill the Family of Sinners. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster’s Bible)
Kill Followers of Other Religions (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Kill All of Babylon (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Micah Kills a Whole Town. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of thisslaughter in verse 6.)
Death to the Rape Victim promoted/commanded (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
Rape of Female Captives promoted (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Exodus 32:27 God himself murders about 3,000people.
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@RoderickSpode
i.e., a (pseudo) intellectual version of who has the biggest penis. And a (maybe) slightly more mature version of my daddy can beat up your daddy.
Address the topic, please. I am not interested in your opinion concerning who's daddy has the biggest dick. grow up!
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@Melcharaz
God didnt create the concept of evil.
The bible doesn't agree with you. And you keep posting irrelevant posts that go nowhere to explaining where evil originated.
God said - "I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7. There is also Lamentations 3:38 saying both evil and good come from god.
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@EtrnlVw
Go back and respond to the contents of my post,
I have. You have just chosen ignored my responses or missed them altogether, I think the former.. You posted a few verses from James 1 that go absolutely nowhere in explaining the origins of evil . I have simply countered your pointless and irrelevant verses with what god AND the scripture state themselves. In case you missed it:
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version
" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".
I even addressed your point where YOU prove my point that god, creator "all things" has no control over his own creation; where you went on your little pointless gnashing of teeth here when you stated :
EtrnlVw wrote; "Natural disasters is the same situation, God doesn't go around creating volcano eruptions lol, those are effects that have causes".
I actually agreed with you and pointed out the flaws and faults in your gods creation being the "causes" that you mentioned, this of course comes after god had a good look around a "saw that it was all good".Genesis 1:31. But we can clearly see for ourselves, that all wasn't and isn't good at all is it?
But I can see the mistake I made . I didn't address my response to your post to you personally and therefore you wouldn't have got a forum alert. My fault. I apologise. So maybe if you would like to scroll up just a little to post three you will see that I have indeed responded and addressed all of your pointless and irrelevant points that go nowhere in explaining the origins of evil. I will re-post it later if you cannot managed to do that. But that said. If you are too idle to simple scroll up to post 3 above, here is a quick summery of what other irrelevant points of yours that I addressed when you continued your rending of cloths and gnashing of teeth;
"As for all your mumbo jumbo about God creating mental illnesses and "diseases"[.......]cause and effect [....] natural disasters [......] a very smart fella and Dr [.......] God doesn't go around creating volcano eruptions lol"
All the above shows that the creator "of all things", had absolutely no control over his own creation . It wasn't "all good" and as the bible states, and evil was created by god himself .Isaiah 45:7 King James Version
" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".
how did I know you were going to roll out the old Isaiah passage lol?
I don't know but I knew 100% that you wouldn't.
All you ever do is avoid the answers
I haven't avoided anything. I believe I addressed all your points GO TO POST 3 above. And even after I politely asked posters not to post anything irrelevant to the question in the OP, I even commented on those irrelevant and pointless verses that you posted from James 1, explaining how irrelevant they were to this particular subject of the origins of evil.
So. you don't have an answer to the question in the op, and as predicted by me in the OP above post # 1, you now will continue to deny that god didn't create evil as the scriptures and god himself clearly state he did.
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@Tyran_Osaur
From a thinking atheist point of view of course, religion is the true personification of evil whereby those in authority use the supernatural in order to manipulate those who are naive, gullible and weak, for their own nefarious and self-centered gains.
i couldn't agree more.
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@RoderickSpode
rickSpode reference your post 28 above is, for the best part, all irrelevant to the topic this thread.All of those reading here haven't missed the fact that you have steered clear of the murder of all of Jobs innocent children and avoided the subject like the plague.Really?
Yes. really.
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There's an obvious problem with this topic as usual, because of your ranting and overzealous posturing you ask questions then you leave no room for an answer.
No one is stopping you answering.
You seem to have had no problem and have found many words in response but nothing that explains or answers the question that should be pretty straight - forward for all believers. You, I am assuming, do not lay the blame for the existence of evil at gods door, if that is the case, then who? is all I am asking.
You ask believers a question then you go on about why and how they can't answer that question lol,
Lol away sunshine. Is all I have politely asked is those that are interested not clog up this thread with quotes and verses from the scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with the question. If any quoted verses are relevant, I will indeed take them into consideration before debunking them with your own scripture or simply agreeing with what has been produced and offered as an explanation.
But I'll say it again so there's not room for confusion.
I agree. There certainly isn't. Considering that once again god himself tells us the it was he who created "ALL evil" along with ALL other things in existence. And you have the brass balls to tell me I haven't read the scriptures.
As for all your mumbo jumbo about God creating mental illnesses and "diseases" and what not, again those are not things so they are not included as things that God created.
Just as I predicted. You will only claim that your god created only the fluffy nice things. So let us take just one piece of my "mumbo jumbo" then.
The bible tells us that god created " the heavens and the earth.Genesis 1:1 It is also said just 31 short verses after that "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. ." 1:31
But it wasn't good at all was it. The earth is riddled with faults; (they will be the causes you mentioned). The earth is also stretched and pulled in all directions when certain planets in the heavens that the bible says he also created, line up and their proximity is closer to earth. YES, this was your gods creation that the bible says he was happy with and all of it was "good".
Here is a list of earth quakes that have happened on the earth that god is said to have created, faults and all. I haven't included the body count.
The scripture you have reproduced above doesn't explain where evil originated, it simply recognizes that evil exists. This is a perfect example of what I mean by posting IRRELEVANT scripture to explain away the origins of evil. But the thing here you see, is that you have quite purposefully have left out what god himself has to say about the origin of evil:
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version
" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".
This is not to mention the other verses where god throws his hand up to possessing and creating "evil".
God it is also said in the scripture sent an evil spirit to Saul, that he had created.
And ;
“Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household".
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No matter how many times I have pointed to god, creating, causing and doing bad/evil things, the apologist try their apologetic best to counter with " this is not gods doing" OR god didn't create anything evil" etc etc .
But never will they put forward an opinion or even a theory of where all of the bad and evil in the world originated.
I have claimed that the bible itself says that god "created all things" so everything bad or evil created is all down to god..
"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him" - including all sickness and disease. mental illness, genetic errors and defects. Volcanoes that destroy towns and cities around the earth that he created with faults that cause earth quakes and tidal waves killing MILLIONS in the process. Yes , all gods handy work according to the bible itself.
But even this clear biblical evidence ( one of many) of god being the creator of "all things" is not enough to convince a theist that the word "all" means exactly what it says. No! The theist would argue that the bible - believed by millions to be the unshakable truth of god - doesn't actually mean "ALL" when it states "ALL" and spew out all kinds of biblical verses and other claptrap that some how and for some reason they offer that "proves" that "all" in the bible doesn't actually mean "all.
It is, by all accounts it seems, the fault of the atheist reader of these ambiguous scriptures for not understanding that words in the bible do not actually mean what they say with the best so far being that the word " kill " for instance,means something different to Christians than it does to any sane non believer.
Could the Christians here, just for once, explain to us where evil actually originated if it wasn't created by god?
Please be polite enough observe and adress the question with factual evidence. This doesn't mean posting and quoting billions of irrelevant biblical verses that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
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