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@Mopac
You have no case,
So you keep saying. But at first you were adamant that the story was all to do with them being afraid for Jesus' safety if they went to Judea. But we have now established they were IN FACT going to Bethany to see a "dead Lazarus". Bethany must have been one of the safest places Jesus could have gone. Bethany was nothing short of Jesus' field of operations. Almost everything he done and happened to him before the crucifixion took place or started in Bethany. He felt so safe there near the Jordan that he "tarried" a few more days! while Lazarus apparently died after Jesus said he wouldn't "die". Now either Jesus was wrong or Jesus purposefully lied or Jesus was talking some other type of death, a spiritual death , maybe?
So now we have established to where he intended to go and to who it was that Jesus went to see and why, let us see if we can get over this little hurdle.
Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?
And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?
Your original post has been thoroughly debunked.
You so desperately wish that to be the case don't you. WELL ITS NOT!!!!!
So stop lying. You know that I am slowly chipping away at the lies and deceit in these scriptures and you and the others cannot face it.
Try answering those questions.
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@Mopac
Jesus obviously wanted to go to Bethany to see Lazarus.
That's correct. He wanted to see the now "dead" Lazarus in Bethany, didn't he? And we know this because above we can read Jesus clearly saying who he is going to see because >>>>. 14 Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 ........ nevertheless "let us go unto him".
Then Thomas says 16 .......Let us also go, that we may die with him.
You have no case,
Jesus above has clearly said " let us go unto him." this being Lazarus as you have now acknowledged. You have also acknowledged that Lazarus is "dead" in Bethany.
Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?
And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?
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Those other verses and my questions prove my claim.No they don't. And questions don't prove.
Opinion.
And what is more by you refusing to answer those questions proves me right even more.Incorrect.
opinion
Make and substantiate your point, or drop the argument.
Nope. Lazarus was not "dead", The disciples along with Jesus went to Bethany where Lazarus was reported sick, then asleep and then "dead" <,, (after Jesus himself said that Lazarus wouldn't "die"), and the "raising" is nothing more than an initiation ceremony. A ceremony that is replicated and repeated even today by Freemasons..
You and ethnag - popoff - 5 have BOTH made the silly argument that Lazarus was already dead "so how could they die with him if he was already dead". Posts 19 & 21
I ask you this , how then can a dead man walk if he is "dead"
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. ^^^^^^^^^^
So going by your own understanding and reasoning, the scripture states "The man" that was "dead", but was walking out of the tomb. How can he walk anywhere if he is physically "dead".!!??
Your faith has let you down as has your reading and understanding of these scriptures.
You need to look at the sequence to understand what had happened to Lazarus and understand what it was he "died" of. But you won't. Your blind faith won't allow you to.
drop the argument.
I won't be dropping anything until you start answering questions that you should have no problem answering.
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@zedvictor4
Given that the Biblical tales are at best a mythology.Might suggest that someone was perhaps rightly or wrongly, nailed up by the Romans.
Jesus may well have been nailed up. Its weather he survived and was it all contrived that I am asking
And what happened to Old Joe?He doesn't get much of a mention, considering all that he supposedly had to put up with.Typical.
Joseph of Arimathaea I assume? Yes a shady character indeed as was that other "secrete disciple" Nicodemus. They both come and go in a flash don't they. As if the never even existed .
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I referenced the DUP because Boris made promises to them, then very quickly betrayed them.
So what. (1) this has absolutely no baring on the Prime Minsters "vow" to "defend persecuted Christians around the world" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7822823/PM-vows-defend-persecuted-Christians-world-praises-NHS-working-Christmas.html
(2) I am not sure what promises you are talking about, but if you are saying he should have made a coalition with them, he didn't need to he had an overwhelming majority. I am sure he would have kept any promises to form a coalition had he not got a majority. but you haven't show us what these promises actually were and you certainly haven't shown or proven how he is supposed to have betrayed them.
I referenced the DUP because Boris made promises to them, then very quickly betrayed them.
What promises and how did he betray them?
I would like to see all Muslims who commit the minor of crimes to be deported to a Muslim country. But this can never happen.
You would like to see citizens deported to another country based solely on their religion? And you think I am the bigot?
Read slowly. You will see the words .... Muslims "who commit crimes". And as with Muslim terrorists, If that makes me a bigot for wanting Pakistani Muslim rape gangs deported then so be it. I am not on my own.
if as you say he is "destroying the country", maybe he can start repairing our once green and pleasant land by stopping immediately all aid to the Yemen (£770 million) and instead spending the money on charities here at home where it is desperately needed for Nurses, Doctors Assistants for the elderly. Schools, New Hospitals, Road Repair, New Railways and other infrastructure.I think that would be a fkn splendid start to Boris Johnson's leadership!What do you think, HistoryBuff?This is a pretty constant thing the right likes to do.
So that is a yes then? Or is it a no?
But then when they are in power they usually cut spending to the thing they said would be a better use of the money.
Sorry, did you miss this? It is talking about "INCREASING" not CUTTING!!!! look for the words "new" and maybe the words " stepping up" <<<< they should explain what the word increasing in this case means, and it may also help you understand word "increase" if you compare the monetary figures also highlighted for you in bold underlined
New UK aid to feed millions of people in Yemen
- English
- العربية
The UK is stepping up its humanitarian support to help millions of people at risk of starvation in Yemen, the Prime Minister announced today.
Published 24 February 2019 .
New UK aid worth £200 million will feed millions of people and provide water and sanitation to those most in need. This new announcement brings the total that the UK has committed since the start of the four-year conflict to £770 million. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-uk-aid-to-feed-millions-of-people-in-yemen
If I was in power the first thing I would do is stop all overseas aid.
The idea that the UK can't fund humanitarian aid as well as the NHS is bullshit. They can very easily do both.
More statements without supporting evidence.
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@Mopac
The thread is not concerned with who is a fake god, church or who wrote what. The thread is concerned with the possibility of
a fake crucifixion.
Mopac is just loving the fact that this thread is being diverted with pointless argument. It saves him having to face and discuss the possibility that Jesus didn't "die" at all, but was only rendered unconscious by the different chemicals that he inhaled and drank , only to be resuscitated and revived; and not resurrected from the dead, later. Did the ancients even have a word for unconsciousness? Were they confusing resuscitation with resurrection? Did these ancients know the difference between resuscitation and resurrection, or did both these words mean the same thing?
St. John the theologian was not just an apostle, but was even entrusted with taking care of Jesus' mother Mary.
The identity of the disciple allocated to the after care for Jesus' mother is never ever revealed. So you are wrong on that score and so is the not very observant bible bashing teacher who taught you this. But I will take an educated stab and say that it was the once believed to be "dead - now risen - Lazarus" who Jesus was talking to from the cross and giving instructions to.
And my reason for this comes from the scriptures.
Please read carefully>>>>When Lazarus is first reported to be only "sick" , these are the words used by the messenger:
John 11 King James Version (KJV)11 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) 3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
Now read >>>>John 19:26-27 King James Version (KJV)26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
So I am guessing he was instructing the once supposedly "dead" Lazarus. One has to wonder yet again, why this duty of after care was allocated to "dead" Lazarus, when Jesus had quite a large family of brothers and sisters. The Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55-56) mention James, Joseph/Joses, Judas/Jude and Simon as brothers of Jesus, the son of Mary. The same verses also mention unnamed sisters of Jesus.One also has to wonder why the son of god Jesus couldn't look after his own mother once he came back from the "dead". I mean, he was only gone three days wasn't he?
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The Quran denies Jesus is the son of God in several verses, including one (Q.5:116) quoting Jesus as denying he is the son of God.
According to mainstream Islamic interpretations of the Quran, he was neither crucified nor raised from the dead, but rather was saved by God.
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The DUP are in Northern Ireland. The Scottish Nationals are in Scotland.
Sorry I made a very clear mistake and accept that. Which is more than a sniveling little bigot like yourself would ever admit. I was in a hurry.
Northern Ireland are more than welcome to a referendum. As is Scotland.
The DUP sufferered losses and Sinn Féin have the majority. this has absolutely nothing to do with Boris Johnson's vow to defend the lives of Chieftains around the world.
You want further crack downs on muslims.
I would like to see all Muslims who commit the minor of crimes to be deported to a Muslim country. But this can never happen.
You somehow keep missing this>>
if as you say he is "destroying the country", maybe he can start repairing our once green and pleasant land by stopping immediately all aid to the Yemen (£770 million) and instead spending the money on charities here at home where it is desperately needed for Nurses, Doctors Assistants for the elderly. Schools, New Hospitals, Road Repair, New Railways and other infrastructure.I think that would be a fkn splendid start to Boris Johnson's leadership!
What do you think, HistoryBuff?
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@Athias
Provide proof and/or substance to your claim, or drop the argument.
I have proved my claim. And I haven't and won't be dropping anything.
Those other verses and my questions prove my claim. And what is more by you refusing to answer those questions proves me right even more.
I have pointed out to you that you didn't answer the very first question at post 1. You concentrated on "raising the dead " instead of telling me why Thomas suggested they all die. The question was all to do with death not "raising to the dead" Lazarus .
from post One
"SO, The question of course has to be why would two fit and healthy people wish to "die" along with the supposedly very dead Lazarus!? Who it is said, had been dead, for "four days"!!!! https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3347/one-of-the-most-enigmatic-verse-in-all-christianity?
You ignored me when I raised the obvious ,
here>>>>>Remember Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!? But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong???!!!!! And he not only got it completely wrong, the scriptures states that he could have saved him from "dying" had he not "tarried" a further two days done by the river. <<<<this too tells us that Lazarus wasn't literally and physically "DEAD". or your Savior Jesus is the biggest liar of all creation not to mention confused as to the state of Lazarus's health.
You should look closely at what is meant by Lazarus first being sick, then asleep and the dead, instead of just believing the first bit of bullshit that is served in front of you.
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@Mopac
There is no deceit in my intent.
Then instead of quoting Jesus, answer the question.
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We are not disputing the fact that Jesus went to see Lazarus
Good. And you agree that he went to see him in Bethany.
Why did Jesus go to Bethany , Mopac,?To see Lazarus.
but still you say this;
You have no case,
So now answer these simple questions
Who is it that Jesus is talking to at verse 15 below when he says "" let us go unto him." ?
And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples,Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto hisfellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV
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@HistoryBuff
I am MORE outraged by the spinelessness and cowardice of world leaders to even admit the slaughter of Christians carried out by Muslims around the world or to even recognize that it is even happening ; until Johnson made his vow.
As far as I know,
But then you don't know much at all do you? ... for someone calling himself "HistoryBuff"
other groups ......they are getting slaughtered at a lower rate than other groups.
Not according to the BBC and other agencies ."Christian persecution at near genocide levels" . https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48146305
Global Persecution Report: "'Christians Are the Most Persecuted ...and It's Accelerating" 'https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/2019/april/global-persecution-report-christians-are-the-most-persecuted-and-its-accelerating
This>>>>
Both Northern Ireland and Scotland are very likely going to have referendum about leaving Britain in the near future. Boris' cavalier betrayal of the DUP and his push for a reckless and stupid brexit is literally going to destroy GB.
doesn't answer this does it.
if as you say he is "destroying the country", maybe he can start repairing our once green and pleasant land by stopping immediately all aid to the Yemen (£770 million) and instead spending the money on charities here at home where it is desperately needed for Nurses, Doctors Assistants for the elderly. Schools, New Hospitals, Road Repair, New Railways and other infrastructure.
Both Northern Ireland and Scotland are very likely going to have referendum about leaving Britain in the near future.
And so they should if they vote to have one and win. What has this got to do with Boris Johnson's vow to defend the lives of Chieftains around the world.
Boris' cavalier betrayal of the DUP
The DUP lost massive to the Scottish Nationals. There is nothing anyone can do about that. They lost that is that. Johnson got an overwhelming majority , but this has nothing to do with his vow to defend Chieftains around the world from Muslim slaughter.
and his push for a reckless and stupid brexit is literally going to destroy GB.
That is your opinion and has nothing to do with his vow to defend Chieftains around the world from Muslim slaughter.
We could also do with a few new prisons to hold Muslim terrorist who are hell bent on destroying our tolerant and charitable western society. What do you think, HistoryBuff? I think that would be a fkn splendid start to Boris Johnson's leadership!Lol you think there needs to be new prisons for a handful of lunatics?
That will be Muslim lunatics murdering and maiming in the name of Islam and Allah. Yes It is a bit more than a handful. the Muslim population now in English prisons is so much so that they hold their own Islamic sharia trial in them.
I am not sure just a "a handful of [muslim] lunatics", could get away with that .
The large majority of terrorists in western country are christian.
Lets see your evidence for that, please
Building prisons for muslims would be wildly bigoted and would tear the country further.
Opinion.
Just a few western of charities are working in Yemen\
So western charities send some money to try to make up for the billions of dollars of weapons Western countries are selling to the Saudi's which are then being used on Yemen.
NO! MANY western countries send MILLIONS£££££££££ to the Yemen in aid.
The west is arming the side carrying out the massacres then trying to look charitable by throwing some money at the survivors.
That is nothing more than an opinion. I don't believe for a second that these western >>>>> CHARITIES<<<< and their DONORS have "arms to Saudi Arabia" on their minds when they give freely there time , and hard earned take home pay.
That does not absolve them.
I don't believe they are looking for absolution when handing over their hard earned take home pay. That is what tolerant charitable WESTERN nations are good at.. giving freely
God bless Boris Johnson. I hope he keeps his vow to all persecuted Christians around the world .
And just like all sniveling cowards you have avoided this important question>.
if as you say he is "destroying the country", maybe he can start repairing our once green and pleasant land by stopping immediately all aid to the Yemen (£770 million) and instead spending the money on charities here at home where it is desperately needed for Nurses, Doctors Assistants for the elderly. Schools, New Hospitals, Road Repair, New Railways and other infrastructure.
What do you think, HistoryBuff? I think that would be a fkn splendid start to Boris Johnson's leadership!
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@Mopac
again..Is your title then - Mopac - the son of god?You say that it is.
No. I am asking you if it is. Stop quoting me purposefully out of context. It is deceitful, sly and cunning.
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From post 1 above:
Let us just rewind some. Back to Joseph of Arimathaea and his request for the body of Jesus..The original Greek text shows an important point being made. The word "body" is soma. In Greek this would denote a living body.When Pilate agrees that Joseph can take the body down from the cross the word he uses for " body" is ptoma this means a corpse, a dead body. In other words, the Greek text of Mark's gospel is making it clear that while Joseph asked for the living (soma) body of Jesus, Pilate grants him what he believes to be the corpse, ptoma.
It has to be recognized that if the writer of Marks ( Greek version) gospel wished to hide that fact quoted above, it would have been very easy for him to simply use one word for both statements that is, to have BOTH Pilate AND Joseph speaking of the ptoma - the corpse.
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@ludofl3x
"put to death........, children and infants, .......Samuel 1: 15-3Considering they were a bunch of orgy throwing butt lovers who sacrificed children and destroyed the Earth through their gluttony and greed, the world is probably a better place without them.Bad job by god making people this way, then, no?
In his image, you mean.? Not too clever was he.
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@Mopac
"put to death........, children and infants, .......Samuel 1: 15-3Considering they were a bunch of orgy throwing butt lovers who sacrificed children and destroyed the Earth through their gluttony and greed, the world is probably a better place without them.
Oh deary me. Christianity at work and stripped bare for all to see. But Jesus forgives and loves us , eh Mopac.
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Jesus obviously wanted to go to Bethany to see Lazarus.
That's correct. He wanted to see the now "dead" Lazarus in Bethany, didn't he? And we know this because above we can read Jesus clearly saying who he is going to see because >>>>. 14 Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 ........ nevertheless "let us go unto him".
Then Thomas says 16 .......Let us also go, that we may die with him.
You have no case,
Jesus above has clearly said " let us go unto him.". This being Lazarus as you have now acknowledged. You have also acknowledged that Lazarus is "dead" in Bethany.
Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?
And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?
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So tell me ;Who did Jesus mean when he said "let us go unto him" ?Why did Jesus go to Bethany , Mopac,?To see Lazarus.
That's correct!
And Lazarus was dead, in Bethany wasn't he?
And who did Jesus mean when he said "let us go unto him"Jesus obviously wanted to go to Bethany to see Lazarus.
That's correct. He wanted to see the now "dead" Lazarus in Bethany, didn't he? And we know this because above we can read Jesus clearly saying who he is going to see because >>>>. 14 Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 ........ nevertheless "let us go unto him".
Then Thomas says 16 .......Let us also go, that we may die with him.
Jesus above has clearly said " let us go unto him.". This being Lazarus as you have now acknowledged. You have also acknowledged that Lazarus is "dead" in Bethany.
Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?
And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?
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@Mopac
Your interpretation is obviously wrong,The mount of Olives from Jerusalem. It's hardly a half an hour walk.
Irrelevant!.
You are not answering the questions are you? Why not?
So tell me ;
Who did Jesus mean when he said "let us go unto him" ?
Why did Jesus go to Bethany , Mopac,?
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It is believed by Muslims and others that Jesus didn't die on the cross. It has also been said that Jesus was substituted by Simon of Cyrene who seemed to have appeared out of nowhere and just happens to be "passing by" after a walk in the countryside;
Mark 15:21
A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross.
It is only assumed that it was the Romans who pressed poor old Simon into carrying the burden of he Christ yet Jesus strangely had this to say about baring ones own cross.
Luke 14:27
Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be my disciple.
Anyway, the crucifixion; was it staged in order for him to "rise from the dead"?
It all seems a dam risky business if this was indeed the case, but not as far fetched as it may seem.
We have to start with the crucifixion party arriving at "Golgotha. Here Jesus is offered his first drink::
"And when they had come to a place called Golgotha, that is to say, Place of a Skull, they gave Him sour wine mingled with gall to drink. But when He had tasted it, He would not drink." Matthew 27:33-34 KJV.
This seems a curious drink to offer a man on the verge of death after an extremely prolonged "scourging". Surly water would have been the first and obvious option and who offered it to him isn't made clear either. But we have to keep in mind that by all accounts it was the Romans who had sent Jesus to his death, so why would they care to offer him anything at all.
Jesus then is hosted into position on the cross. There is then some mocking and challenges to save himself but Jesus is still alive and talking, giving instructions to one person to look after his mother whilst hanging there. But of all the things one would have expected a dying son of god to say one couldn't have ever expected to hear this ;!
Matthew 27: 46 Eli, Eli,..... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? !!!!
Yes, astonishingly here we have the son of god himself, doubting own his father, and his own god. It is as if he didn't have a clue as to what was happening yet he clearly spoke these words of doubt. Why? Hadn't he read all the script? Hadn't he just promised two robbers that they would "TRUELY" be with him in paradise?Luke 23:43 NIV
We then get to :
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
John 19 states that:
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar [ and hyssop], he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
We are to assume that to "give up the ghost" means dead? And before we go further lets look at Hyssop.
What are the medical uses of hyssop? As a medicinal herb, hyssop has soothing, expectorant, and cough suppressant properties. The plant also includes the chemicals Thujone and Phenol, which give it antiseptic properties. Its high concentrations of Thujone and chemicals that stimulate the central nervous system can provoke epileptic reactions when taken in high-enough doses.
Van Wyk, Ben-Erik; Wink, Michael (2004). Medicinal Plants of the World (1 ed.). Timber Press, Incorporated. p 177.
We can only assume that this sponge soaked with the sleep (if not stupor) inducing narcotic drug Hyssop and vinegar was administered on a pole by one of those said to be standing at the foot of the cross. The soldiers it is said were too busy - “casting lots and gambling of the royal robes - as it is written”- to be interested.
Then this happened;
John 19:32-33.KJV
“Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs”.
So Jesus was believed by these soldiers to be dead and just for good measure ;
John 19;34
34 one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Does a corpse bleed? Whatever happened? His “death” came about unexpectedly quick even to the wide eyed amazement of Pontius Pilate;
Mark15:44.KJV
“ And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead”.
And this is where this whole saga becomes even more suspicious.
Mathew 27:57-61.KJV
Out of nowhere;
“ When the evening was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre”.
Joseph of Aremathea is not mentioned at all to us before the crucifixion. Pilate simply hands over the supposed dead Jesus to Joseph Arimathaea without a single question. It is as if he knew him already. Pilate didn't ask what are you to this man? Are you family, Is he related to you, or how do you know him? Why hadn't any of Jesus' brothers claimed their dead relative. Or anyone of the Mary's who "gave to him of their substance"? Or the "risen Lazarus" who Jesus "loved" or his own mother.!!!?
We only know that Joseph Arimathaea was a rich member of the council of the Sanhedrin (judges) and a "secret disciple " of Jesus who "feared the Jews may wanted to kill him", and ..... who just happened to own the last know resting place of Jesus. Well, Well, Well.
So here we have a member of the council of Judges (Sanhedrin) who is rich and owns his own plot and his own hewn out tomb that appears to be enclosed in private grounds prepared and ready to accept a corpse, and not just any corpse, but the supposedly dead body of king Jesus who was condemned by the council of judges that Joseph of Aramethaea sat on and had sent before Pontius Pilate for sentencing. all very convenient to the inquiring mind, one would think.
There is also yet another very cautious character that it seems is afraid to even to be seen with Jesus and only came to him under the cover of darkness;
John 3:2-3
“There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. The same came to Jesus by night.
And John’s gospel also tells us that he attended the burial the evening before;
John19:39.
“And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pound weight”
And notice what the glittery night owl Nicodemus the Pharisee brought with him. These were not simple cheap burial perfumes. Both have medicinal use especially myrrh that has properties that stops bleeding and neither of these drugs are known to have an embalming role of dead bodies. Both Luke and Mark touch on this matter by telling us that Mary Magdalene and Mary "Jesus' mother" brought spices and ointments with them to the tomb.
Let us just rewind some. Back to Joseph of Arimathaea and his request for the body of Jesus..
The original Greek text shows an important point being made. The word "body" is soma. In Greek this would denote a living body.
When Pilate agrees that Joseph can take the body down from the cross the word he uses for " body" is ptoma this means a corpse, a dead body. In other words, the Greek text of Mark's gospel is making it clear that while Joseph asked for the living (soma) body of Jesus, Pilate grants him what he believes to be the corpse, ptoma.
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@Mopac
It is all to do with Lazarus at this point.11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him [Lazarus] out of sleep.12 Then said his disciples,Lord, if he [Lazarus] sleep, he [Lazarus] shall do well.13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his [Lazarus'] death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.<<<<<Lazarus.16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto hisfellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.<<<<<, LAZARUS! https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJVYour interpretation is obviously wrong,
How so? Lazarus was from Bethany .It was in Bethany that Lazarus was "sick". The message that Lazarus was "sick" came from Bethany, Lazarus "died" in Bethany. Jesus said "let us go to him" in Bethany. And Thomas said, "let us also go that we may die with him".
So tell me ;
Who did Jesus mean when he said "let us go unto him" ?
Why did Jesus go to Bethany , Mopac,?
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@Mopac
because interpretation of scripture is the domain of the church,
So it is I have explained then, that "Son of god" is merely a title and nothing else. And you missd this .. again..Is your title then - Mopac - the son of god?
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@EtrnlVw
there isn't going to be some scientist that demonstrates God exists for you that is silly because the nature of the Creator eludes our immediate physical sense perceptions and so the scientific method is not for that purpose.
That's extremely convenient for you then , eh.. But then it does leave the question of how do you know that a god or gods exist if "the nature of the Creator eludes our immediate physical sense perceptions"?
And did those biblical characters have special "sense perceptions" that we today no longer posses?
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@Dynasty
Look like you haven't any scholarly books on this topic.
So the bible doesn't count then. Those verses are after all, from the bible and are clear instructions from god to murder "put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys" and make war in general.
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@EtrnlVw
Are you forgetting that God has the ability to choose what It wants when It wants?
No
isn't that part of "in his image"....to be able to consciously choose what path the soul wishes to go?
Act like gods. Yes this the my point I am making.
without that ability, wouldn't we be more like in the image of a robot or machine?
Why didn't god do his own dirty work. The bible is full of orders given by god to humans to "put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys" and make war in general. Did they have a choice? Were they to defy their god and creator. Wasn't there a punishment for defying god?
so yes, while Saddam was able to make his own decisions as God does,
He was being and acting in the image of his creator: yes.
they were HIS decisions not Gods.
Yes he made the decision to act exactly as his creator acted.
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@HistoryBuff
Saudi Arabia is using american weapons to commit war crimes in Yemen right now. Where is your outrage about that?
Yes outrageous. What more can I say. I am as "outraged" about the slaughter in the Yemen carried out by a warmongering Muslim country against other civilian Muslims in the Yemen, as I am outraged about the slaughter and butchery carried out by Muslims in the name of Islam against innocent Christians.
I am MORE outraged by the spinelessness and cowardice of world leaders to even admit the slaughter of Christians carried out by Muslims around the world or to even recognize that it is even happening ; until Johnson made his vow. At least we get a weekly, if not daily, updates of the war in Yemen with every TV station appealing for aid for the Yemen from Christian countries.
lol the buffoon prime minister who is literally destroying his country?
Not sure that is true but (1) he has only had 18 days in sole control of a government and (2) if as you say he is "destroying the country", maybe he can start repairing our once green and pleasant land by stopping immediately all aid to the Yemen (£770 million) and instead spending the money on charities here at home where it is desperately needed for Nurses, Doctors Assistants for the elderly. Schools, New Hospitals, Road Repair, New Railways and other infrastructure. We could also do with a few new prisons to hold Muslim terrorist who are hell bent on destroying our tolerant and charitable western society. What do you think, HistoryBuff? I think that would be a fkn splendid start to Boris Johnson's leadership!
New UK aid to feed millions of people in Yemen
- English
- العربية
The UK is stepping up its humanitarian support to help millions of people at risk of starvation in Yemen, the Prime Minister announced today.Published 24 February 2019 .New UK aid worth £200 million will feed millions of people and provide water and sanitation to those most in need. This new announcement brings the total that the UK has committed since the start of the four-year conflict to £770 million. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-uk-aid-to-feed-millions-of-people-in-yemen
Just a few western of charities are working in Yemen
The Red Cross. Save the Children. Unicef. Oxfam. The Disasters Emergency Committee (DEC) Yemen appeal, which partners with the BBC to raise funds. The International Rescue Committee (UK).
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@Username
I'm genuinely curious how the quality of someone's promises improve as they amass more votes.
Well to be fare, to a large point he would have had his hands tied on many a decision because he was in a coalition. We haven't had an elected single party government here in the UK since the liar and coward Blair stood down and Gordon Brown wasn't elected even by his own party never mind the electorate. yes its been unelected leaders and unelected coalitions. Now, it may be a case that he can implement most if not all of what he promised because he is only beholden to the electorate.
So lets us hope now that he can at least manage keep his vow "to defend persecuted Christians around the world and their 'right to practice their faith'."
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@Mopac
Thomas is refering to the fact that they are going to Judea, where they want to kill Jesus.
Nope. Learn to read.It is all to do with Lazarus at this point.
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him [Lazarus] out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples,Lord, if he [Lazarus] sleep, he [Lazarus] shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his [Lazarus'] death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.<<<<<Lazarus.
16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto hisfellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.<<<<<, LAZARUS! https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV
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@Mopac
I think you must have missed this Mopac. Especially the question to you which I have now bold and underlined
It is The Way of PeaceWould you and your congregation consider yourselves to be at peace , peacemakers and peaceful, Mopac ?"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."And you are led by "the Spirit of God" making you then a son of god.
Is your title then - Mopac - the son of god?
Jesus was clearly pointed out to be the son of David, this too would make David a son of god but we know that David was also the son of Jesse that too would make Jesse also a son of god and his father Obed would also be a son of god and Obed's father was Boaz who was also a son of god..........
Do you see what is happening here Mopec? these biblical figures are simply titled 'son of god', including Jesus. They are not literal offspring or seed of any god. Does not Jesus himself say that ' just by simply calling for peace, you are a son of god' ? And I am of the understanding that "the way" was just another sect whose teachings Jesus had adopted as his own teaching or in part at least. It is widely believed that Jesus borrowed from many sects and belief systems including Confucianism .. There were literary hundreds of sects ( and messiahs) around in Palestine at the time of Jesus who all believed that their way to be ..
" the way".
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It still amazes me that even today that Christians still deny the plurality of the waring gods.
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@zedvictor4
Just look at the problems Roman Catholic Priests haveAnd what is the alternative species?Sheep perhaps!
There seems to have been some-kind of 'special relationship' between sheep and their 'shepherds' for millennia. I have to wonder were they actually "watching" their flocks that night when they were so rudely interrupted by an angle shining his light on them or was the word "watching" yet another a biblical "mistranslation" ?
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@HistoryBuff
He said he would stand with the DUP too, that didn't turn out well for them.
Yes he seems to have a wobbly past when it comes to vows /promises. But then he didn't have the massive majority that he now has. Christians can only hope that his vow to defend Christians around the world from Muslim persecution is heartfelt and intended. We shall have to see.
My bet is that he will do absolutely nothing about the slaughter and butchery of Christians carried out by Muslims against them and just like all spineless cowardly Western world leaders, will leave " Easter worshipers" to defend themselves.
I do hope that I am wrong, don't you?
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In China they preferred to killed babies (girls) because of the threat of over population and food shortage, rather than deny and go against what nature dictates.The Chinese do not have the contraception technology that we have today.
IUDs, OCs, sterilization, and condoms account for most of the contraceptive practice in China. ... The IUD is the most widely used method in China and is the method most often recommended for women living in rural areas. The IUD may account for as much as 50% of national contraceptive practice.
30 million vasectomies
According to Chinese officials, 30 million vasectomies have been performed nationwide in the last 2 decades. In some areas, the vasectomy prevalence equals 31%, and the ratio of vasectomy to female sterilization is 5 to 1. In the rest of China, the ratio is 1 to 3.
PIP: In China, an estimated 30 million men have undergone vasal voluntary sterilization, and about 11.97% of Chinese couples rely on vasectomy, according to a 1990 survey. ... Since 1971, over 10 million Chinese men have undergone NSV. Vas ligation is the most popularly used method in China.
If I need a vasectomy so I don't reproduce, I'm on board with that. Being immortal would be optional if they get a vasectomy or tubes tied. It's better than banning immortality altogether.
Seriously Alec, how old are you?
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It is The Way of PeaceWould you and your congregation consider yourselves to be at peace , peacemakers and peaceful, Mopac ?"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."And you are led by "the Spirit of God" making you then a son of god.
Is your title then - Mopac - the son of god?
Jesus was clearly pointed out to be the son of David, this too would make David a son of god but we know that David was also the son of Jesse that too would make Jesse also a son of god and his father Obed would also be a son of god and Obed's father was Boaz who was also a son of god..........
Do you see what is happening here Mopec? these biblical figures are simply titled 'son of god', including Jesus. They are not literal offspring or seed of any god. Does not Jesus himself say that ' just by simply calling for peace, you are a son of god' ? And I am of the understanding that "the way" was just another sect whose teachings Jesus had adopted as his own teaching or in part at least. It is widely believed that Jesus borrowed from many sects and belief systems including Confucianism .. There were literary hundreds of sects ( and messiahs) around in Palestine at the time of Jesus who all believed that their way to be ..
" the way".
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@Mopac
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
And you are led by "the Spirit of God" making you then a son of god.
I find this interesting because I have argued many times that " son of God" is simply a title and nothing more.
There are many references to son and sons of god in the scripture, but for some unfathomable reason, Christians seem to believe that it means something more when the title is tagged onto the Christ, which itself only means anointed and not son of god.
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And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: Genesis 3:22
So Saddam Hussein for example was god like then when he also ordered the unprovoked genocide gassing against Kurdish women , children and infants in Halabja?
Is this not similar to >>
Samuel 1: 15-3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"
Yes he sounds like a good god doesn't ? A god that loves us; his own creation, including, "women, children and infants" .
“But of the cities of these people,which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth”:Deu: 20:16.
Yes indeed. This god is very "good god" isn't he. he's a clever god too; getting these dupes to do his dirty work and turning them into killers..
But there again, we are created in their image and we did become one of them.
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I do my best to encourage peace among those I know.
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Are you then a son of god?
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Would you and your congregation consider yourselves to be at peace , peacemakers and peaceful, Mopac ?It would certainly be sin otherwise.
Could you be clear on that. I asked if you and your congregation consider yourselves to be at peace , peacemakers and peaceful,
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@Mopac
It is The Way of Peace
Would you and your congregation consider yourselves to be at peace , peacemakers and peaceful, Mopac ?
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@Mopac
if you pay attention,
I did and have. I have said I have read much on this megalomaniac sex mad murderer who would have another man killed for sex.
from the time that David commited his great sin onward, his reign was marked by strife and chaos.
That was more down to bad decision making due to his pox ridden brain.
He did repent.
Oh, well, that's a ok then. But can't say it did any good for poor old Uriah who he sent to his inevitable death.
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@Mopac
Most of your questions dissapear if you accept the truth, and the rest are not really important.
No they don't. And neither do they disappear by you ignoring them.
What did Lazarus die of?
What was he doing in the tomb when it was, apparently, common knowledge that Jesus could "raise the dead"?
How stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ?
Why do YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead?
Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?
Tell me how can the dead bury the dead?
How did Jesus know that Lazarus was dead?
Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane healthy men to die?
Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!?
Did they die?
Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"?
What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal
death wouldn't Jesus have simply "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3.
Why is it that Lazarus at first was said to be only "sick" and then "sleeping" and then finally pronounced "dead" by Jesus?
Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!? But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong?
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@Mopac
David was a man after God's own heart.
He was. He too was also a jealous, murdering war monger too, just like god, wasn't he. As I pointed out above, I have read much about this god chosen King who sent a man away to war so he could slip into the mans wife. Horrid little fkr really, wasn't he? just like his god
14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”2 Samuel 11:14-15
Like father like chosen, I suppose.
He died of some kind of ancient STD, didn't he?
5 My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.
6 I am troubled; I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long.
7 For my loins are filled with a loathsome disease: and there is no soundness in my flesh.
That'll teach the horrid little fkr , won't it.
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@Alec
We would have had a very large human crisis on our hands thousands of years ago if we "eliminated old age".No. The people back then wouldn't have sex once they realized they were immortal and the human's population would be close to the carrying capacity because of less sex with this alternative species.
And you believe that threat of over population, food and shelter shortage would stop the force of nature do you? In China they preferred to killed babies (girls) because of the threat of over population and food shortage, rather than deny and go against what nature dictates.
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@Alec
Is god real?
Depending on what you believe of course, but there are many civilizations the claim that their gods / lords came down from the sky and were real living beings.
Personally I cannot see any reason to disbelieve what they wrote about these beings. They had no reason to make it up as far as I am concerned.
In fact if these beings never existed, it would have been better not to have invented them at all for a leader claiming to be the highest authority in the land. Why invent something that challenges your own authority? Just my opinion.
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@Mopac
The Way.
I would be extremely interested in your version of " The way". Could you start an independent thread of our own on what it is you believe The Way to be?
Thank's.
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@Alec
Should old age be eliminated?.......I never want to die.
We would have had a very large human crisis on our hands thousands of years ago if we "eliminated old age". You would then be asking, 'should euthanasia be compulsory at 20 years of age ? It has been estimated that there are 15 dead people for every 1 that is alive.
7.7 Billion (2019) X 15 = one hundred fifteen billion five hundred million.
Good luck with that.
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It has taken some time - decades in fact- for just one world leader to recognize Christian persecution around the world.
Boris Johnson vows to defend persecuted Christians around the world .
"Boris Johnson has vowed to defend persecuted Christians around the world and their 'right to practise their faith'.
In his first Christmas message as Prime Minister, Mr Johnson said he wanted to remember those who were unable to celebrate the festival publicly or were jailed because of their religious beliefs.
He said his Government would 'stand in solidarity' with Christians everywhere".
In his first Christmas message as Prime Minister, Mr Johnson said he wanted to remember those who were unable to celebrate the festival publicly or were jailed because of their religious beliefs.
He said his Government would 'stand in solidarity' with Christians everywhere".
Since 11 September 2001 our world leaders have pulled out all the stops to convince us that "Islam is a religion of peace". Even the Sri Lanka terrorist bombing carried out by Muslim fanatics butchering over 290 Christian worshipers couldn't bring our world leaders to say the word ' Christian" but instead chose the term "Easter worshipers" there by once again showing their cowardice and spinelessness in the face of Islam while Christian slaughter and murder are now at "genocide levels".
Well done Boris Johnson British MP.
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@zedvictor4
Most similar mythologies or fantasy tales have the little hero slaying the big bad ogre.
They do, zedvictor4. But in this case we seem to have bibles and verses that don't agree and contradict one another . We even have the same bible citing TWO different heroes!!!!! as the giant slayer, as shown above by Popoff 5 himself. Or it is a case that all three of these heroes killed this giant Goliath? Which then we would have a tale that is not mentioned anywhere in any bible on earth.
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@Mopac
The church certainly uses scripture as it was intended to be used, and our use of it is the proper context. The way we use scripture fleshes out the typology in such a way to where the meaning of the faith is revealed.
Really! OK. Then this question shouldn't be difficult at all for you then , should it. So who actually killed Goliath?
Was it - David, Adeodatus or Elhanan?
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@Tradesecret
"SO, The question of course has to be why would two fit and healthy people wish to "die" along with the supposedly very dead Lazarus!? Who it is said, had been dead, for "four days"!!!! (yes I know)" .https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3347/one-of-the-most-enigmatic-verse-in-all-christianity?Well if that is the question, then you will forever be lost wondering about a question that does not have an answer because the intent of the passage is not what you are asking.
It is the question. and you would have known that had you not ignored it or even bothered reading from P1.
So you don't have an answer at all then. Just as I thought, I am not surprised, it was to be expected . You don't have answers to my other questions either. You are only good for repeating these scriptures "with your own spin". But as soon as you have someone like me come along who seriously challenges these gospels, and " your spin on them". you fold.
They did not wish to die alongside Lazarus.
The scriptures clearly tell us it was Lazarus.
There is not a scrap of evidence suggesting that is what they were wanting to do.
The scriptures clearly has Thomas saying:
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV
You can deny those verses until the second coming and they won't change.The fact that the " him", is Lazarus.
And even if you were correct in believing the verses were about Jesus, you still haven't explained why Thomas would even suggest such a thing as suicide when Jesus message and Christianity is all about life, giving life, sparing life, love of life, life everlasting and life after death .
Jesus himself speaks only of life and living. Yet there is not a single protestation from Jesus when Thomas suggest they go and "die". This in and of itself is a complete contradiction to what we are led to believe was Jesus' soul mission here was on earth.
The context clearly reveals that the disciples were concerned about the anger against Jesus if he were to return to a particular area. After Jesus decided he was going to this area, his disciples, loyal as they were, begrudgingly, decided they would go with him - and to their death - if that is what happened.
Opinion and "spin". And is your only way around these questions.
That is the answer that lies within the context of this story.
Now you are doing what is expected of all Christians when posed a real serious question . You are allowing yourself to explain "what lies within" while dismissing what an atheist reveals "what lies within". You just won't allow yourself to relalise the fact that there are honest, reasonable and very earthly answers to these verses. You cannot do without your miracles.
Most commentators agree with this reasoning.
That would be full blown theist no doubt. And yet other scholars have it different.
Your assumptions about the text are yours.
They are. And I believe that the other "risings and raising from the dead" and "dying" for no reason tales also prove me to be correct. And what's more, my belief and explanations do not rely on "miracles" to explain these enigmatic verses.
Acts 5. Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, just appear to drop down dead for no reason.
Matthew 8:22. A grieving disciple wants time off from his duties to bury his dead father and Jesus' response to the poor man in mourning is to simply say "let the dead bury the dead".
John 11:16 And Thomas suggestion that they "die"
Only do these enigmatic tales make any sense is if "the dead" means something other than a literal physical death. And in these cases, it clearly has to mean something else. which it does as I have show. My questions alone prove my point and you being unable to answer those questions proves it even further,
Hold onto them if that is your desire.
I do. And I will keep asking my questions, the same questions that are obviously far too awkward and difficult for you to take on .
But when you ask a question - expect that others do not see the things that you see......
I don't . I expect them and YOU to answer my questions without falling back and relying on miracles and superstition.
because you have to read them into the text.
But haven't you just told me what " "what lies within" while dismissing what I believes "lies within".
In other words, this verse is problematic for you,
The the problem lies with the devout Christian. It is not problematic to me. I know what they mean.
Now...would you like to take on my questions,Tradesecret ?
What did Lazarus die of?
What was he doing in the tomb when it was, apparently, common knowledge that Jesus could "raise the dead"?
How stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ?
Why do YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead?
Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?
Tell me how can the dead bury the dead?
How did Jesus know that Lazarus was dead?
Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane healthy men to die?
Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!?
Did they die?
Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"?
What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal
death wouldn't Jesus have simply "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3.
Why is it that Lazarus at first was said to be only "sick" and then "sleeping" and then finally pronounced "dead" by Jesus?
Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!? But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong?
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