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@3RU7AL
Yes that is what apologists like yourself and prosser do all of the time.The video you posted only talks about Muslims.
Yes so? what your point giant boots?
THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM TERRORISTS.
No it doesn't and I nor Shapiro is saying any such thing.
You only wish he and I were suggesting that. Listen carefully you clown he makes his point extremely clear.
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@3RU7AL
I guess they're conflating "Islam" and "Muslim".
Yes that is what apologists like yourself and prosser do all of the time.
THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM TERRORISTS.
No it doesn't and I nor Shapiro is saying any such thing.
You only wish he and I were suggesting that. Listen carefully you clown he makes his point extremely clear.
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@disgusted
There are "people"Author: disgusted, 1 day ago[.......]Added: 07.22.19 07:51PM[.....] Who claim that a fetus has the right to life.Other than the woman carrying that fetus who gives it that right
So once more. WHAT IS YOUR POINT!?
People claim lots of things all of the time, but they usually they have a point. You haven't made your point clear. In fact, you haven't made a point at all. Is all you have done is claimed that "people" claim something., then added what it is they claim but your not making the point of your own claim.
Ok. SO? What's your point?
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You must have been very confused when you wrote it.
Nope and all explained here>>All explained in Post 1 that is ONE of the op that is , the Original Post, which can be found here>>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2141/islam-only-a-tiny-minority?
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@disgusted
It doesn't say anything about what Islam is a tiny part of.
THAT! my little sea sponge embrio, is because the thread has nothing to do with ISLAM being an tiny part of anything.
You really must pay attention . I know it can be difficult for you at times especially when there are more than two words in one sentence.
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@disgusted
I don't believe I mentioned "magical" powers , did I.The story does. Haven't you read it.
I have read it. And it mentions nothing concerning magic, or anyone involved with it performing magic. So can you show me these verses that include magic?
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@disgusted
All explained in Post 1 that is ONE of the op that is , the Original Post, which can be found here>>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2141/islam-only-a-tiny-minority?
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@disgusted
You're not really much on the comprehension are you.
Well unless I have missed something, your op has everything to do with women's rights on abortion and is no business of anyone else's.
So before you start denying that you are the author of this thread , let's confirm it.
Yes , here we are:
There are "people"Author: disgusted, 1 day ago[.......]Added: 07.22.19 07:51PM[.....] Who claim that a fetus has the right to life.Other than the woman carrying that fetus who gives it that right
So. you claim that there are people claiming that a fetus [something you have much in common with) has a right to life and not just the birth mother?
Ok. SO? What's your point.
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@disgusted
EVERY WOMAN'S RIGHT TO BODILY AUTONOMY.
I agree. It is totally up to the mother, unfortunately the father has no say in the matter , is how I understand it.. So what's you point?
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@keithprosser
Get this straight - I am not in the business of putting Islam in a bad light. I am not Stephen.
And you "get this straight" _ You are more than welcome to try and put islam in a good light. I have been asking you to do this for a very long time now and you have failed to come back with anything at all.
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IT BOTHERS ME BECAUSE BASTARDIZERS LIKE YOU PRETEND NOTHING IS WRONG AND WE ARE ALL GETTING ALONG SWIMMINGLY!!!!I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.Apparently I think nothing needs to be done because we are all getting along so swimmingly!
So just so I am clear. are you actaully saying "nothings needs to be done"?
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and didn't have magical powers!
I don't believe I mentioned "magical" powers , did I.
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@keithprosser
What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? Is it the faculty of reason, or perhaps, the faculty for discourse?...the question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? Why should the law refuse its protection to any sensitive being?...
His Single celled brain must be absolutely stewing now, trying to get his head around that.
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@keithprosser
Who claim that a fetus has the right to life.Other than the woman carrying that fetus who gives it that right?The mother gives life to the foetus but the right to life is a cutural thing.
Don't confuse him, FFS. he's still struggling with "people" and he wrote the piece.
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@BrotherDThomas
the initial post by the bereft Dr. C&P Franklin includes biblical passages from our JUDEO-Christian bible, does it not? Huh?
Yes a specific part and addressing a specific story, This one, the one the OP has chosen, is The Ark Of The Covenant. So stop being so fk rude.
Therefore, the hypocrite Doc Frank opens himself up to Christianity in general, get it?
No. I don't get it you clown. I am sure the OP is not a stupid as you give him credit for and knew exactly what it was that he wanted the forum to discuss. he has chosen a Specific part and put it up for discussion. You are simply being awkward and uncooperative.
Therefore, he is open to me correcting him again on our faith, no matter if it is the topic at hand, or a topic of Christianity.
Faith is not in question here , stop being so rude.
You are probably the last one at DebateArt that can tell me in how I am to conduct myself when dealing with FAKE Christians, understood?
So why not start your own thread on what you call "fake Christians"? And stop derailing this one with your preaching about something you obviously have no knowledge about. Or do I need to remind you that you don't know your Ark from your fkn Arse?
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I think it doesn't support what you assumed about my position.
You keep changing it. One minute you come over full blown apologist, accusing me of being a racist bigoted "islamophobe" who is "spreading hate and fear" and desperately trying to ally me with the "far right"., the next you are suggesting that we agree on a lot concerning ISLAM, and "wonder why" it bothers me so much?
IT BOTHERS ME BECAUSE BASTARDIZERS LIKE YOU PRETEND NOTHING IS WRONG AND WE ARE ALL GETTING ALONG SWIMMINGLY!!!!
I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.
My position is that an Islamic take over is not today's problem.
Yes, I know. Like have said, as long as it doesn't happen in YOUR lifetime then you don't give two fks for future generations . As long as it is not happening on your fk doorstep and doesn't affect you in the slightest then it is not happening. This is you in full blown denial just like all leftist apologists, You pretend it isn't there. And the irony is that when I am asked to prove my position, you then scream and stamp your fkn feet accusing me of posting "far right propaganda".
I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.
Today's problem is the worsening of inter-community relations, which results in a hardening of attitides and polarisation. It's a downward spiral that can't end well.
Indeed and this is all because government and people like you have failed to recognise the problem, refused to listen to the concerns of those THAT IT IS AFFECTING, and trying to close down any criticism of ISLAM. I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.
The young Muslims in the program are very different to the Muslim presenter. The billion dollar question is why.
Because there are more of them (muslims) now than when WARSI and the presenter was growing up. There were no "muslims councils", there were no Muslim police federations, there were no shariah police roaming the fk streets of our towns and cities telling the indigenous what they can and cannot do. There were no mas prayers meetings on the fk streets and in parks, and there were no fkn mosques when I was a boy or even a teenager.. WARSI and the presenter were more 'westernised' because they were surrounded by western white children and adults who were in the greater numbers when they were growing up. They were friends with whites English/ British children and went to majority white western schools, and you have to ask "why"? Try thinking outside of your left wing apologist box and the truth may hopefully slap you between the fkn eyebrows
This is what MUSLIMS do. They will be the politest people in the country when in small numbers agreeing with and abiding by the laws of the land, Once they gain the upper hand and grow in numbers, then they start demanding another way of living. I have told you his a thousand billion times. but you refuse to see it. This is happening all over Europe. Islam is a problem ALL over Europe's and the western english speaking world, why do you think that is We haven't got any problems with Sikhs and Hindus or Buddhists, or Zoroastrians, they have been coming here and living here just as long. This is ONLY happens with ISLAM. And again, when I put forward any evidence for this, you will again accuse me of all the above.
I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.
I don't accept there is a 'true' interpretation of a religion.
Islam is not a religion, you keep forgetting that. And even if it were it wouldn't be for you to decide on the "interpretations" as much as you keep banging on about "interpretation".
I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.
There are many different interpretations which have all been dominant at various times and places.
No there aren't , they are all ISLAM and even if this were true, the one that concerns me is today's "interpretation".I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.
but I suspect not even the players of that game know what they are doing!
Do not kid yourself. Their goal is the same as it was 1400 years ago - a worldwide caliphate - an ISLAMIC STATE! They certainly do know what they are doing.
I am still waiting for you recommendations of what can be done.
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@BrotherDThomas
Do you understand this simple premise or not? It is my duty as a TRUE Christian to do so, get it?
I do "get it", But not in this case. What I don't get is people like you who drift off topic without a thought for the OP and carry on with your own agenda. I admit sometimes this is unavoidable, but we are still on page one and you and mopac already want to stamp you "authority" all over it. I am simply asking you to respect the op.
are you religious in any way
No, I am not. I look at the scriptures as history of the ancients. I believe these "lords" existed once and either they went back from whence they came, or simply died off when the human population got too large and too much for them to control. Like I have said, there was never any such thing as "religion" in ancient times. "Religion" is without doubt is a conception of mankind. None of which has anything to do with the topic of the op.
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@BrotherDThomas
Stephen,You have passed the godly test, GOOD FOR YOU, praise Jesus!
Oh I am pleased.
Every one in a while, I test the "assumed Christians or Hell bound Atheists" on religion forums to see if they are truly paying attention. In your case, the rumor is that you do not comprehend words if the sentence contains more than six words. Therefore, I brought forth Noah's ark in contrast to the Ark of the Covenant to see if you saw the difference, and you did, praise!
You mean you fucked up. And feel quite the penis I said you were, so not having a get out of that fkn great hole that you dug for yourself, you decided it was all a test. I see.
Since your biography page is SILENT upon the material asked of you,
Nothing has been asked of me, material or otherwise.
and if you're not to embarrassed, what is your MO regarding religion?
There was never any such thing as "religion" until the priests usurped the kings. The sole job of priests was nothing more than to lick the arses of the lords and serve them only. They had absolutely nothing to do with the general population. The general population were ruled by kings following the instructions of the lord that handed down kingship to him. That is why still today king/queenship is still called "god given".. The general population were regarded as far too ' unclean ' to be anywhere near the lords. But over all, religion is a fascinating subject all round though.
Now , out of courtesy to Dr.Franklin , could we stick to the topic of the thread. If you have no opinion, or nothing to add on the topic, It is simple courtesy to leave the thread and not agitate for the sake of it.
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@Mopac
Not sure if this is what you found interesting,
What's the matter with you? I made myself perfectly clear which exact verse I found interesting. This is why you always get carried away with yourself. You purposely try to tell others what they mean or meant to say and suggest an alternative. Why don't you learn to read WHAT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN WRITTEN - before you start commenting on a thread.
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@BrotherDThomas
Stephen, YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE: "I believe there may well have been more that one."Where in the Hell do you get the authority to promote that there were more than one Ark???!
Keep your Cassock on ' brother '. You have the wrong ark for a start. Go see the title of the thread. I am not sure you know your ARK from your ARSE!!! or your elbow come to that!
Jesus' inspired words state with specificity the following: "Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch." (Genesis 6:14)
Nope! It clearly states this was "god" who gave the instructions for NOAH'S ARK!!!! He wanted to be rid of mankind because of people like you misquoting him all the time, and not being able to keep up, I should imagine.
In the passage above, do you see the plural in Arks as in more than one?
No.
NO YOU DO NOT!
That's correct I don't. but that will be because I wasn't reading about Noah's ark. I was actaully referring to the title and topic of THIS thread. The Ark Of The Covenant.
Therefore, you DO NOT know more than Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate, understood?
maybe, but I know more than you though, don't I , you pompous penis. I can also read and keep up with the thread.
Your Satanic ways will not go unnoticed!
I should hope fkn NOT!!!!!
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@Dr.Franklin
There is certainly a lot of detailed instructions here for something not to have ever existed. Why go to all the effort, when the writers could have simply told us the "tablets" or tables of testimony are kept in a sacred box made by Bezalel and Oholiab constructed following the instructions of Moses. There again when we get to Deuteronomy were are told that Moses constructed the ark. For me , as fascinating as the whole this story is, it is the last verse that intrigues me most.
Exodus 25:10-22 King James Version (KJV)
10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof.
11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about.
12 And thou shalt cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in the four corners thereof; and two rings shall be in the one side of it, and two rings in the other side of it.
13 And thou shalt make staves of shittim wood, and overlay them with gold.
14 And thou shalt put the staves into the rings by the sides of the ark, that the ark may be borne with them.
15 The staves shall be in the rings of the ark: they shall not be taken from it.
16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about.
12 And thou shalt cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in the four corners thereof; and two rings shall be in the one side of it, and two rings in the other side of it.
13 And thou shalt make staves of shittim wood, and overlay them with gold.
14 And thou shalt put the staves into the rings by the sides of the ark, that the ark may be borne with them.
15 The staves shall be in the rings of the ark: they shall not be taken from it.
16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
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@keithprosser
I've pointed out to posters who compare Islam and Christianity that argument doesn't work.
Only after I had pointed that fact out to you - many times - when you kept trying to introduce that same argument. And I have said many times, the " crusades" argument doesn't work either. No doubt you will be spouting this too when you realise that it doesn't work either.
Believe me when I tell you, Islam is not here to improve our lives. It is here to improve the lives of Muslims under sharia.
But those that speak of these things publically are accused of being "FAR RIGHT ISLAMOPHOBES" as you have labeled me.
I listened to your link . I have to wonder why you wanted me to listen to it considering it turned out to support my arguments rather than yours.
Do me the same courtesy and listen to this ex Police Officer of 16 years talking about Tommy Robinson's recent conviction.
Tommy Robinson Goes To Prison Again! - Ex Police Officer Speaks Out Again
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@Dr.Franklin
It is believed the Ark was destroyed during the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of King Nebuchadnezzar.
It is also believed the Romans carried it off after The Fall of Jerusalem.
It is also believed it was stolen and now is guarded today by Ethiopian priests at Axum .
Whatever it was and where ever it is , it was a powerful piece of technology. And it is a fantastic discussion subject...... until a complete prat to come along and derails your thread for the hell of it and just because he can.
I believe there may well have been more that one.
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you have been trying to shut me up since I signed up here.I've never questioning your rights to post here.
Not directly.
Like you, I'm not the type to run to the moderators.
And you have proof of that do you? I'll answer that for you, ' no Stephen, I have not a single ounce of evidence for that false accusation '.
I don't deny that I have brought into question moderation a few times on this forum and IN THE OPEN!!!!
I think your posts are one-sided propaganda so I have said so.
Then why do you not give me an example of my "one sided posts of propaganda". You will probably find that what you are describing as "propaganda" is in reality, evidence in response and contrary to something you have claimed or a statement you have made.
You seem keener to suppress any criticism of your deliberetely inflamatory material than I am to stop you posting it.
NOT AT ALL. on the contrary - >>>>>>> I WELCOME YOUR CRITICISM<<<<<< I don't mind your criticism, because your criticisms are easy to dispel and debunk. Again, this is the problem with you and apologist just like you. You have no answers so make all these empty claims and are confusing evidence of my claims and evidence debunking your claims with "inflamatory material". Give me an example of "MY inflammatory material".
I don't want to prevent you posting propaganda - I want you to stop wanting to.
What you call propaganda I call evidence supporting my claims and or debunking your claims. .
So let us all see your evidence:
Give me an example of "MY inflammatory material and one-sided propaganda".
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@Snoopy
I think if you want to point fingers on these events, you need to go back before WWII.
This is where I have chosen to point the finger>>>>POST 227 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2062/no-go-areas-in-the-uk?page=10
There are a few other factors that must be taken seriously into consideration.Mustafa Kemal Atatürk ( a secularist) was despised and hated by Muslims when he tried 'reforms' when the Islamic State/caliphate ended in 1924 up until that time the Islamic Caliphate had existed for over 1400 years and in the time of its existence they had butchered more that 270 million people.People thought the Islamic State was now a thing of the past, never to return, but in truth it had never gone away; it was there bubbling below the surface, literally. The one factor you have already mentioned, it was the discovery of oil that enabled muslims to resurrect the Islamic State. Discovered by western technology and the same helped them get it out of the ground, refine it and stupidly allowed them to nationalise it. Saudi Arabians went from living in tents and mud huts to living in palaces almost over night. Yes this gift of oil was from Allah because they had been faithful following the quran to the letter as taught by the perfect prophet muhammad and living in his way.Another factor is that Sayyid Ruhollah Mūsavi Khomeini, known in the West as Ayatollah Khomeini, coming to power in 1979. Now they had the money and the spiritual covering to wage Islamic jihad once more.Another is Osama bin Laden. He and the mujahideen had defeated a super power and this too was a victory handed to them by Allah for remaining faithful to the words of the quran and walking in the way of the perfect prophet Muhammad and now they believed they were ready to take on the " Great Satan" itself, the USA. Fortunately , what the Soviets couldn't do in ten years, thankfully the Americans did in just under ten weeks.
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@keithprosser
I'm not trying to shut you up or censor you,
BOLLOCKS!!! you have been trying to shut me up since I signed up here. I find it odd that you have never once tried to shut me up when I have questioned, criticized and scrutinised Christianity or called me a bigoted "Christianophobe". What you have done instead is call me a racist and bigoted "islamophobe" tried at every turn to link me to the far right, accused me of spreading hate and fear, and all because you have no fkn answers. That is why you want to shut me and censor me. And you quickly turn everything personal for the sam fkn reason
but what is needed is more analysis and less rhetoric.
Try "analysing" that vile book the quran or the biography of Muhammad. You won't need much more research than that.
less rhetoric.
Yes another bullshit and warped claim by the leftist apologist, You are always confusing telling the truth and critical "analysis" with rhetoric.
You also keep avoiding this>>>WHY?
In fact I am still waiting for your recommendations on what YOU would do about Islam that you say you are no fan of and you say "needs its teeth pulling" and call "backward". here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1707/why-is-islam-backward
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@keithprosser
Where then should I be pointing the finger if not at what I believe is the threat?There are loads of people pointing their finger at 'the threat'. I don't think recycling the right-wing network's meme of the day is what the world needs right now.
You just can' answer the question can you? You have decried me "pointing the finger at Islam", so where should I be pointing it? Why are you having some much fkn trouble with this question.
You also keep avoiding this>>>WHY?
In fact I am still waiting for your recommendations on what YOU would do about Islam that you say you are no fan of and you say "needs its teeth pulling" and call "backward". here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1707/why-is-islam-backward
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Tell me, why did you ask me to watch this link.?https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b055g740
What i mean is that Muslims are going to form a signficant (and growing) fraction of the British population or a long time to come.
They will be coming a growing part in this country, I agree. But I assure you, it won't have anything to do with BEING PART of a British population or culture or society. Anyone who believes otherwise is deluding themselves. We have in many towns and cities - Muslims Housing Associations anyone other than muslims cannot access that housing. There is a Muslim Police Association in London which then makes it duel policing i.e one law for them and another for anyone else. There is the shariah police roaming the streets telling people what to do and where they cannot go, reminiscent of the scene of the taliban of Afghanistan beamed into our homes. and no one is stopping them, quite the opposite, I belive it is being encouraged. The list is long and you want to pretend it is not there or don't know about it.
Those that speak of these things publically are accused of being "FAR RIGHT ISLAMOPHOBES" as you have labeled me. Listen to this ex Police Officer of 16 years talking about Tommy Robinson's recent conviction.
Tommy Robinson Goes To Prison Again! - Ex Police Officer Speaks Out Again
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@keithprosser
OK. I believe the west has a problem with Islam. SO YOU tell ME where I should be pointing the finger?What you should do depends on what effect you want your posts to have.
You can never answer question brought about by your own fk statements, can you? I didn't ask for your advice on "what I should do". In fact I am still waiting for your recommendations on what YOU would do about Islam that you say you are no fan of and you say "needs its teeth pulling" and call "backward". here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1707/why-is-islam-backward
You have decried me "pointing fingers" at Islam. Where then should I be pointing the finger if not at what I believe is the threat?
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@keithprosser
People like you and Stephen seem to think all the hawks are on one side and all the doves on the other
yes unfortunately that is usually the way it works when faced with the overtake of a country.
and that problems can be solved by finger pointing.
OK. I believe the west has a problem with Islam. SO YOU tell ME where I should be pointing the finger?
And I am still waiting for your recommendations for a solution to the problem of an ideology that you say you are "no fan of" and one that you say "needs its teeth pulling"? I have given you mine often enough.
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@keithprosser
I think a Martian sociologist would say the left is in denial of the problem and the right exaggerates it!
Doesn't take much to shut you up causing you to state such silly and stupid things. I will take that as you have once more run out of argument.
What I say is that , YOU and other left wing apologist are in denial and the "right" who - highlight the problem even at the risk of being called racist bigoted "islamophobes" are slowly waking people up to the menace we in the west are facing.
At your request I spent over an hour of my time listening to and commenting on a link that you posted: You haven't addressed a single thing of what I said above .
Remember what that young muslim girl said in the link, your link?
"everyone is talking about Islam, the world is talking about Islam". What she forgot to add was 'since 9/11.' That is why "the world" is waking up and "talking about fk ISLAM!" I actually started to wake up after the Salman Rushdie affair. Alarm bells should have rang out but It was a warning many ignored except the great atheist himself Christopher Hitchens.
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As I recall the origin of this, you presented Erdogan's comment as corroboration of your view that all Muslims are fanatics.
Then you "recall" wrong. You just WISH I had branded "ALL muslims fanatics", I have never said that or suggested that. What I have said - as you well know is that Erdogan says that there is no such thing as "moderate islam". I have never mentioned or suggested that ALL MUSLIMS are fanatics.
And I have never suggested that it should follow that if there is no "moderate islam, then there are no "moderate muslims". This is you assuming this of me and desperately trying to attach your assumption to me. Is all I have ever asked you on this matter is to explain to me what a "moderate muslim is" and you couldn't.
And you cannot show me where I have said or even suggested "that all Muslims are fanatics". . So stop being sly just because yet another of your links proves me correct and appears to have caused you to alter your stance on the term " moderate muslim".
And you have totaly ignored this too.
I really think you should listen to that radio program.You probably think its a 'lefty-libtard' puff piece about how the 'Muslims are nice, really' but it isn't like that at all. It presents a pretty depressing picture of how the Muslim community in Britain is moving away rather than towards liberal and progressive attitudes.
Then it would be telling me what I already know and have suspected for many years now. So it seems to have opened your eyes more than it needed to open mine. But I will listen to this morning sometime.
What i mean is that Muslims are going to form a signficant (and growing) fraction of the British population or a long time to come.
They will be coming a growing part in this country, I agree. But I assure you, it won't have anything to do with BEING PART of a British population or culture or society. Anyone who believes otherwise is deluding themselves. We have in many towns and cities - Muslims Housing Associations anyone other than muslims cannot access that housing. There is a Muslim Police Association in London which then makes it duel policing i.e one law for them and another for anyone else. There is the shariah police roaming the streets telling people what to do and where they cannot go, reminiscent of the scene of the taliban of Afghanistan beamed into our homes. and no one is stopping them, quite the opposite, I belive it is being encouraged. The list is long and you want to pretend it is not there or don't know about it.
Those that speak of these things publically are accused of being "FAR RIGHT ISLAMOPHOBES" as you have labeled me. Listen to this ex Police Officer of 16 years talking about Tommy Robinson's recent conviction.
Tommy Robinson Goes To Prison Again! - Ex Police Officer Speaks Out Again
I think it is not realistic to expect them to abandon Islam completely -
I agree. it is an impossibility to hope that muslims will suddenly wake up one day to the horrors and the chains of Islam. and they won't be doing it in the next 2000 years
I think we do have to look very hard at what Muslims - especially young Muslims - are being taught at their mosques and at Islamic schools
You see this is where you are being willfully ignorant. You KNOW that there have been many documentaries and investigation into both and the findings have been frighteningly shocking. But course you will have ignored this and put it all down to right wing propaganda, hate speech, racism and that good ole' favourite of the left "islamophobia".
being taught
And we know what they are being taught here on British soil, they are being taught the quran just as they are taught in the madrasa' of Pakistan. Many of these kids are taught nothing else but to repeat over and over verses from this vile book while hypnotically rocking forward and backward with their legs crossed. They are being taught that anyone not Muslim is a fkn animal.
Video Recorded Inside a Muslim Faith School in the UK
You see you KNOW what they are being taught but simply pretend that you don't know and have to investigate and find out. This is appeasement, this is apologising. The police in Rochdale and Rotherham said " we will investigate these allegations of child rape", when they did, What did they do? They "poured some sand on top of it". And denied it for absolute years out of FEAR and appeasement!
I think it is crucial that tolerance doesn't become appeasement.
Tool late for that my friend. There has been much bending the knee to Islam already in this country and across Europe of which I have shown you examples just for you to turn around and accuse me of casting Islam in a bad light. That is apologising and appeasing Islam.
But this is Britain, not a police state
God, you really are in fkn dark aren't you. There are hundreds of police officers now so fed up that the Police force has become nothing more than a tool for government.
Or we could do nothing and hope for the best....
They are working on snatching that from us too. And they do this by inventing new words and redefining the English language and making crimes of things that are not crimes at all.
but that isn't working.
yes I have trying to tell you that for quite a while now.
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@keithprosser
However, I do not dispute that the majority of British Muslims are not liberal and progressive.
You mean ' you do not dispute that the majority of British Muslims are not liberal and progressive - anymore.
So why do you now believe this?
What has changed your mind. You cannot be seriously telling me after all the wrangling on this forum we have had, that one single 27 minute radio program brought you to this conclusion and caused you to have a change of mind?
This I believe is your man Manzoor making a documentary for the BBC.
MUSLIM GOES NUTS OVER SATANIC VERSES! (reaction) 30 years on!!!!
Yes Islam and Muslims has certainly moved on hasn't it keith.
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@keithprosser
--> @3RU7AL wrote ; If you want to know what Muslims think, try asking one. If you want to know what Scientologists think, try asking one.I think the only person I'd trust to be objective about this stuff is a Martian.
I think you just may regret saying that, Keith?
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@3RU7AL
When will the Christian masses rise up to protect the witches!!!
They did, and they won, you clown,
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I seriously doubt it was lawful to kill people in England before it was Christianised!
Indeed. As I am sure it was unlawful to kill before Moses said it was. In fact Moses killed before he said "thou shalt not kill".
I responded in a new thread to your request to listen to your link here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2176/drop-the-moderate-keithprosser-link-pt1
Please afford me the same courtesy.
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@keithprosser
But it was Gillians trivial case that caused a mob - estimated at 10,000 strong - to gather and bay for blood.
Other than that they are nice fluffy "moderate muslims" on the whole.
I really think you should listen to that radio program.
I responded in a new thread to your request to listen to your link here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2176/drop-the-moderate-keithprosser-link-pt1
Please afford me the same courtesy.
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@Yassine
run away
From what. You? You who tells lies repeatedly and puts new meaning and definitions to you own fkn vile book to hide the fact that it is vile, barbaric and stuck in the 7th century. Don't make me laugh. You think much too highly of yourself you clown. You are no better at defending your barbaric ideology than any other apologist for this death cult;Islam..
Yeah, AGAIN these are the parts you deleted:
No I didn't. I addressed the relevant part. And I will do it again for you now.
You wrote:
LOL! Radical Muslim = wanting Sharia as their law in their own country?? LMAO.
I replied;
"And mine".
Most Christians want their Bible as their law too.
Christians In Christian country maybe do live by biblical law in part but also by the law of the land that supersedes religious ' law'. I won't argue that some English law maybe did find its roots in biblical law such as the fkn obvious "thou shalt not kill". But I can assure you that there are no laws telling Christians to go out into the world and rob rape and maim and murder anyone who isn't Christian or refuses to believe in the Christ as the god in the barbaric vile book the quran commands. So fk off. you have no argument here.
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! “We are commanded to terrorise the disbelievers”
"Allah commanded us to TERRORIZE the Infidels"
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! APOSTASY. “he wants to leave Islam, what do we do? :KILL HIM” 2:32 onwards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPCLY2MKRCc
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@Yassine
This is completely irrelevant to your OP,
Yes I know. It shouldn't be allowed that one can bury conversations or posts that they are not comfortable with. But there you are. This thread is done anyway.
The Myth of the "Tiny Radical Muslim Minority" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg&t=114s
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"Drop the Moderate" keithprosser link PT2
Then we are back to tolerance and homosexuals where on his return he found nothing had change in the way of either.
And of course he tells us, the word “moderate is not easily accepted by many Muslims”.Don’t ask me to define “many”. Those were Manzoor’s words not mine.
And he reiterates “ hardly anyone we spoke to was comfortable with it”.
Need I go on?
(6)
Interesting That the woman Ahmed who has studied the history of the term “moderate muslims”says ;
It is difficult term, and it is NOT a term that is accepted by the vast majority of Muslims that I know of”. She obviously doesn’t know as many as you then eh keith. And even the presenter Sarfraz Manzoor finds it “offensive”. And Christians do get called “extreme”. Interesting to note that this supports my opinion that these terms are pushed by the west via its government, politicians and bymedia doing the bidding of the Governments and politicians. This simply goes hand in hand with their narrative that “Islam is a religion of peace”.
So again, no surprises there and something I have been trying to get across to you for along time. Need I go on?
(9)
I liked it when he said he believe it “could mean to be reasonable and civil” as opposed to the Muslim behind him burning a Salman Rushdie novel who wasn’t being either.
But like I Have also pointed out to you, the Muslims in this video below are not “moderate” and they are not being“reasonable or civil”, are they.
"Moderate"Muslims try to defend the death penalty for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality,
Video Recorded Inside a Muslim Faith School in the UK
(10)
“The Tables are divided, and there is a mahram to stop the brothers from committing acts of sexual desires”.
These are clearly Muslims that cannot control themselves in the presence of women.Now why do you think that is Keith? Keeping in mind these are supposed to be British born 3rd or 4th generation Muslims that Manzoor interviewing and believes it to be a “sin” to shake a woman’s hand. He was 21 years old and couldn’t be trusted to behave proper in the presence of females.
(11) The young women of the Islamic Society.
“But what does it mean to be a “moderate Muslim”?
“To be A PART of society and follow British Values”, replies a woman with common sense.
Another goes on to say, “whatever country your in, you have to follow their laws”.
In Contrast, she talks of Muhammad being “mocked and ridiculed” but he reacted with “compassion”. All true... to begin with but it didn’t last long. He turned to being a violent and vile barbaric dictator who lopped off the heads of many hundreds of people ...... simply for not being Muslim. " I have become victorious through terror"
See >>> Muḥammadibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār Muslimhistorian and hagiographer. biography of the Islamic prophet Muhammad
19 minutes onwards it is simply opinion of Muslim concerning all the above including an opinion from Warsi who sees “islamophobia” even when she’s in the privacy of her bathroom. I will however give Warsi one thing; she answered your question and you seemed to have missed it.
Osama Hassan attempted (according to him) to challenged the “outdated values” and it didn’t go down very well when he attempted to rewrite or “update” that which is the unalterable word of god. He was forced from the mosque. Manzoor asks Hasan:
“Does This mean that you are an exception and that most Muslims are far more misogynistic”? NO!! it means that Muslims are Muslims being Muslims. When Muslims don’t enforce Sharia and adhere to the words of the prophet and strive to be like the “perfect prophet in every way, then they are not Muslims, that is what it means to other Muslims.
Osman Hasan seems to be convinced that there is some type of “reform going on” which seems to contradict and go against almost everything the MUSLIMS in this video have said and Manzoor “hopes he is right”.
So you've heard it from the horse’s mouth once again and it turns out that it all agrees with me and not you. . Even down to “the world” wanting to know about Islam to the point of “obsession”
Even Down to the Main Stream Media pushing a fkn agenda that Muslims leaders AND our own governments want us to hear
“It needs us to assume less [ and be allowed to] argue more”. Sarfraz Manzoor.
This was a radio programme from 2015. I don't know when you FIRST came across it, but I posted The Guardian complimentary piece to this very programm as evidence that muslims hated the terms " moderate Islam and moderate Muslim" ages ago and simply ignored it.
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I listened to your link. i hope you have the courtesy to listen to mine
This first thing I notice here is that Muslims and - people like me - just do not understand what “moderate Islam” is “or what a moderate Muslim is”? This is why I have asked you repeatedly to explain both these terms and you have simply swerved on the matter but it didn’t stop you and politicians and apologists using the term and the reason for that is explained in part 2 below. It didn’t even stop you attempting to contradict Muslim President Erdogan, did it? Need I go on?
(2)
No evidence“mixing”.
This clearly indicates intolerance and no intention of integrating, just as I have been saying to you. Need I go on?
(3)
This Question to Sadiq Khan was interesting;
“do you accept that broad swath of Muslim OPINION is liberal, tolerant and progressive”?
Khan’s Response was to simply lie and say:
“That’s’ my experience and they [Muslims] do not have those views”.
(1) It contradicts the opening statements at the beginning of this video. (2) Listen To what this so called “moderate” Muslim Mayor has to say about “moderate Muslims”.
Sadiq Khan Calls Moderate Muslims "Uncle Toms".https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPqHMcNUuP0 Need I go on?
Khan then goes on to tell more lies about not seeing the hijab niqab and burqa at all in Pakistan. Making out that British born Muslim women are ‘choosing’ to wear this oppressive garment. And there is no evidence to date that a fatwa was ever put out on Khan either. Why no arrests for inciting murder, or violence? We only have his word for this and it is pretty well documented that he has links to extremists. So anything Kahn has to say on the subject of “moderate Islam or moderate Muslims” is absolutely worthless. IMO.
The video then gets more real opinions from some truthful and honest Muslims about homosexuals& friends that are not Muslim who wouldn't be allowed into a muslim household etc etc and everything they say supports MY fkn argument that Muslims for the most part are intolerant and I am only 4.5 minutes into this video. Do I need to go one?
(4)
BBC survey of “ a 1000 British Muslims” concerning free speech and the attack of Charlie Hebdo.
Showed that 27% had sympathy for the“motivations” for the attack, while a 45% saying that “clerics preaching violence against the west as being in touch with mainstream Muslim opinion”. I agree with Nazoor “That’s pretty scary”. But he is being irrational isn’t he Keith?
Anyway, no fkn surprises there then. Need I go on?
(5)
We then hear more from Khan who goes into deep denial, a bit like you do Keith when facts and figures are presented. Khan doesn’t accept that they are less integrated which by now you are fully aware that this is complete bullshit.
Interesting That Manzoor comes from Luton. In 1982 Luton had only one mosque, it now has over 30 (that is 1 new mosque a year)and is known as “the jihadi capital of England” or as Manzoor puts it “a breeding ground for terrorism”. Is it any wonder that there was push back from the indigenous population?
Cont...
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@Yassine
LOL! Radical Muslim = wanting Sharia as their law in their own country?? LMAO.
And mine.
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@keithprosser
I really think you should listen to that radio program.You probably think its a 'lefty-libtard' puff piece about how the 'Muslims are nice, really' but it isn't like that at all. It presents a pretty depressing picture of how the Muslim community in Britain is moving away rather than towards liberal and progressive attitudes.
Then it would be telling me what I already know and have suspected for many years now. So it seems to have opened your eyes more than it needed to open mine. But I will listen to this morning sometime.
What i mean is that Muslims are going to form a signficant (and growing) fraction of the British population or a long time to come.
They will be coming a growing part in this country, I agree. But I assure you, it won't have anything to do with BEING PART of a British population or culture or society. Anyone who believes otherwise is deluding themselves. We have in many towns and cities - Muslims Housing Associations anyone other than muslims cannot access that housing. There is a Muslim Police Association in London which then makes it duel policing i.e one law for them and another for anyone else. There is the shariah police roaming the streets telling people what to do and where they cannot go, reminiscent of the scene of the taliban of Afghanistan beamed into our homes. and no one is stopping them, quite the opposite, I belive it is being encouraged. The list is long and you want to pretend it is not there or don't know about it.
Those that speak of these things publically are accused of being "FAR RIGHT ISLAMOPHOBES" as you have labeled me. Listen to this ex Police Officer of 16 years talking about Tommy Robinson's recent conviction.
Tommy Robinson Goes To Prison Again! - Ex Police Officer Speaks Out Again
I think it is not realistic to expect them to abandon Islam completely -
I agree. it is an impossibility to hope that muslims will suddenly wake up one day to the horrors and the chains of Islam. and they won't be doing it in the next 2000 years
I think we do have to look very hard at what Muslims - especially young Muslims - are being taught at their mosques and at Islamic schools
You see this is where you are being willfully ignorant. You KNOW that there have been many documentaries and investigation into both and the findings have been frighteningly shocking. But course you will have ignored this and put it all down to right wing propaganda, hate speech, racism and that good ole' favourite of the left "islamophobia".
being taught
And we know what they are being taught here on British soil, they are being taught the quran just as they are taught in the madrasa' of Pakistan. Many of these kids are taught nothing else but to repeat over and over verses from this vile book while hypnotically rocking forward and backward with their legs crossed. They are being taught that anyone not Muslim is a fkn animal.
Video Recorded Inside a Muslim Faith School in the UK
You see you KNOW what they are being taught but simply pretend that you don't know and have to investigate and find out. This is appeasement, this is apologising. The police in Rochdale and Rotherham said " we will investigate these allegations of child rape", when they did, What did they do? They "poured some sand on top of it". And denied it for absolute years out of FEAR and appeasement!
I think it is crucial that tolerance doesn't become appeasement.
Tool late for that my friend. There has been much bending the knee to Islam already in this country and across Europe of which I have shown you examples just for you to turn around and accuse me of casting Islam in a bad light. That is apologising and appeasing Islam.
But this is Britain, not a police state
God, you really are in fkn dark aren't you. There are hundreds of police officers now so fed up that the Police force has become nothing more than a tool for government.
Or we could do nothing and hope for the best....
They are working on snatching that from us too. And they do this by inventing new words and redefining the English language and making crimes of things that are not crimes at all.
but that isn't working.
yes I have trying to tell you that for quite a while now.
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@Mopac
No, they only meddled in church affairs, kidnapped children, forced them to convert to Islam, made the eunuchs, and had them fight in their armies.What else? Converted churches to Mosques, prohibited maintenance of churches, made it illegal to proselytize, etc.Actually, the Turks were probably the worst out of all the Muslim conquerors.
Islam butchered its way far west into Europe up into France and Spain. North west to the Caucuses. As far east a China and down into the Indian subcontinent raping robbing maiming and murdering and converting by the sword as it went. It appears this fool likes to believe that the indigenous peoples of the "conquered lands" simply welcomed them in and willingly converted to Islam Without so much as a by your leave' and that it had absolutely nothing to do with a fkn sword and the threat of death.
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@keithprosser
Don't be so arrogant! It was the Safraz Manzoor radio documentary that made me question the usefulness of the term
Then it has taken you a long time to come to the conclusion that you now consider the phrase "moderate muslims" to be unclear , hasn't it?
This is what you have said isn't it:?
I've gone off it[ the term "moderate muslims" recently because it doesn't have a clear meaning.
After I have asked you over and over again for ages now to explain to me what the phrase "moderate muslim" actually mean without response. This is not arrogance on my part. It is a fact I had you cornered on that particular point and instead of simply admitting that you just maybe in the wrong you simply decided you didn't want to play anymore.
It was the Safraz Manzoor radio documentary
Stop telling lies. I had pointed this and many other things out to you about both terms "moderate islam & "moderate muslim" and you dismissed them with wave of the hand. It is simply the case that you knew perfectly well that you had once again painted yourself into a extremely tight corner on this particular issue and your only way out was to say that you don't like the term anymore.. Ok , you are now at least questioning the phrase that is so despised and disliked by muslims and think you don't like it anymore.
So what about the term "moderate Islam" are you going to tell you that you have "gone off" that term too?
And I am still waiting for your suggestions .
Given there is a social issue to be addressed, the important thing is what to do about it.
So, off you go, what do you suggest should be done about it. Start by telling us what the "IT" is and why you believe something should be done about it, if anything?
And could you tell us all, why you believe "Islam needs its teeth pulling"?
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@3RU7AL
I copied your phrasing verbatim.
No you didn't you fool. You copied my whole sentence and then DOCTORED IT! which I am sure is against forum rules to intentionally and willfully copy someone's post THEN alter it to make it come across different. You are so desperate to come across as intelligent and be right about something aren't you? You will never be either if you have to doctor someone else's work to look good.
This is what I have wrote at post 113
"Devout muslims believe that the Quran is the perfect word of god , so if it "perfect" it don't need altering or reforming or dragging into the 21st century".
Let me remind you, Christianity HAS reformed, it HAS altered and HAS brought itself nicely into the 21st century after hard fought for reformation. And any doctoring of my work by you will not alter or change the fact that Islam hasn't,won't, and can't reform.
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@ludofl3x
Nice try, accept for the the silly schoolboy error."Except."
Indeed "except". My auto correct didn't auto correct.
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@3RU7AL
I'm attempting to map common ground.(IFF) you agree with this (THEN) just say "I agree".
Agree with what? I don't even want you on the thread. Your proving to be hopeless at keeping up and hopeless at addressing anything I have said. In fact you are proving hopeless at just about everything.
I have no "common ground" with you, you fool". and I am not sure I would want any. I would rather you simply fk off my thread altogether. You have nothing of interest to say, no valid input and you ask dumb questions. Why would I want to establish any "common fk ground" with you.
Now you either support your claims or debunk mine or just fk off.
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@3RU7AL
so if it "perfect" it don't need altering or reforming or dragging into the 21st century.
Nice try, accept for the the silly schoolboy error.
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