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@disgusted
where you thought I was prosser,
Wrong again. I have never thought you were keith prosser. He is far, far more clever and far far more intelligent than you for anyone to mistake him for a sea sponge. No. I meant I wouldn't desert my posts like prosser has a habit of doing after you accused me of "forgetting" one of my own threads.
And you haven't answered the question and I don't expect you to.
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@keithprosser
It is obviously true that Christianity succeeded with gentiles more than it did with the Jews.
And only because it became the state religion of Rome. Otherwise it would have probably died a death without anyone's help. It is interesting how many religious historians like to phrase it as - christianity "spread" through all of Rome - as if by some miracle when the case was anything but. Romans were still killing Christians right up until the time that Rome adopted it as the state religion. And the reason constantine 'adopted it' was simply because he needed a bigger army, so, miraculously ' a cross of light ' appeared in the sky with the words ( in Greek mind) telling the Roman Constantine In hoc signo vinces. it is notable that Constantine didn't actually become a christian himself until he was on his deathbed in 337 some 30+ years after his 'vision'.
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@TheRealNihilist
God is good is an assumption
And a lie. The bible/OT makes it more than clear that god is a ' jealous god of war ' who won't hesitate to murder anyone, including children who (1) doesn't believe in him. (2) doesn't love him. (3) doesn't obey him and all his laws and dictates.
Believers on the other hand , will make up all kinds of excuses to justify why the god of the Old Testament acts they way he does, or simply, they will deny that all the above are false claims and attempt to rewrite the bible to prove anyone who agrees with all the above wrong. So tell us something new.
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@disgusted
You are so incredibly vile for asking godists questions they can't answer. bwuahahahahahahahahaha.
And you are so incredibly dim ALL of the time.
I have simply asked questions that the believers of the OT should be able to address, I don't lower myself to asking those of the faith questions all 5 & 6 year olds ask about "god".
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@disgusted
All of your asinine questions have been answered,
And now your have turned to lying. But what else can you do. Cornered like the little vile and repugnant specimen bully that you are have now simply resorted to lying.
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@disgusted
You've lost
Lost? Lost what? This has nothing to do with wits, you buffoon, so check your ego. It is to do with my questions that have gone unanswered.
It is you who as failed to address the questions posed in the op. And your reasoning is that none of it is true. Ok. But then nothing you add after is relevant as you have put yourself in the position of not believing and in turn not knowing, so you are incapable of answering them. I can accept that.
But those verses are still there , in the OT , and my questions concerning them have gone unanswered. I have lost nothing, I have simply asked questions that the believers of the OT should be able to address, but like you have failed. But at least you have a reason for not being able to answer them, where-as our faithful friends have simply ignored them.
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@disgusted
And you proving these outrageous statements should be fkn hilarious.OK provide the evidence for the existence of Adam........... Should be fun .
--> @disgusted "we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
Prove it.
--> @disgusted "We all exist in the same reality"
Prove it.
--> @disgusted " the word god did not even exist before the middle ages"?
Prove it.
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You could even have a stab at breaking down your pointless wiki link for all of us to discuss.I think you should get the nearest child to explain it to you.
So you can't explain what it is that you have posted YOURSELF!!! so won't be starting a thread .No surprises there then.
So you believe then, Exodus - Leviticus - Numbers - Deuteronomy and Joshua are all fiction?So you are claiming then that the characters and places and events in the first 5 books of the Old Testament are all fiction?So educated scholars such as Ahmed Osam , Dr David Rohl, Sir Laurence Gardner - to name a few - are all delusional in your opinion and have simply wasted absolute years - some a lifetime - inventing evidence to support the existence of the Old Testament characters, places and events? The last two being atheist.You are dismissing people who are in a much better position than you to discuss these things far too easily, but you are more than welcome to that ignorant opinion.But you see, biblical scholars and archaeologist look past those thing that you refer to as " legends, miracles and magic" and strive to discover what it is that lies behind these "legends, miracles and magic". Where as you, like many other ignorant fkrs just simply dismiss these biblical accounts as you do the findings of those above mentioned scholars,with a wave of your ignorant hand.Who produces the vile posts? Oh it's you, poor little thing.
I wouldn't call that Vile. I would call it fact. But you are entitled to your opinion.
Now, if you cannot address the op. simply fk off this thread because there is nothing you can add.
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@disgusted
It proves that the Exodus story is pure fiction
OK. Then Start your own fkn thread on why you believe that the OT stories are based on nothing and are pure fiction. You could even have a stab at breaking down your pointless wiki link for all of us to discuss. Go on now, off you trot, you have lot of work to do.
but your not interested in truth, you poor thing.
Your opinion of me goes nowhere in explaining those questions posed in the op or did you miss what I wrote above. here you g>>
I am still waiting for anyone to explain those questions posed in the OP. I am not in the slightest interested in your wikki link. The argument here is not if the stories are true or not. The argument is why are these ambiguous verses in the OT without any explanation that I can see. But you are far too ignorant to understand what a retarded sea sponge would grasp without a problem, you repugnant, vile specimen.
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@disgusted
I hope your not running away from this one
Why would I run away from my own threads,. I am not your best new and only friend, prosser.
I am still waiting for anyone to explain those questions posed in the OP.
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I hope your not running away from this one
Why would I run away from my own threads,. I am not your best new and only friend, prosser who actually has a track record for such behaviour of abandoning his threads.
I am still waiting for anyone to explain those questions posed in the OP. I am not in the slightest interested in your wikki link. The argument here is not if the stories are true or not. The argument is why are these ambiguous verses in the OT without any explanation that I can see. But you are far too ignorant to understand what a retarded sea sponge would grasp without a problem, you repugnant, vile specimen.
If you want to start a thread on the veracity of OT stories, then be my guest.
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@zedvictor4
Thats your opinion and your are more than welcome to it.
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@disgusted
Why are you so hateful?
Listen you vile repulsive specimen. I have pointed out to you many times,you ignorant bigoted buffoon,that you attack people for believing and having faith in something instead of attacking what it is they actually believe. You are a vile individual who doesn't want to discuss anything, you just want to be right even at the cost of being unable to support your own fkn claims but demand others do so. Repeatedly asking questions that you know cannot be answered doesn't make you clever or even right, you vile repulsive buffoon , it makes you a vile repulsive bully. Or have you forgotten the bullshit claims you have made without supporting evidence to back them up when repeatedly requested to do so.
Don't think these wild claims of YOURS! are going to fade away anytime soon.
--> @disgusted "we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
Prove it.
--> @disgusted "We all exist in the same reality"
Prove it.
--> @disgusted " the word god did not even exist before the middle ages"?
Prove it.
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but there is plenty in the bible to suggest Jesus was anti-Priest
There is and with reason. He was against the Roman appointed false priests as he was the Roman appointed puppet king As already mentioned in my post that you have reposted. Why do you just repeat what I have already said as if you had said it first.?
and of course the romans would not hesitate to eliminate a troublesome rabble rouser.
I have already said that too. I have also made my position very clear , many times on what>>>>>> I believe<<<<<<about Jesus THE CHRIST - anointed after over 40 odd years of study.
I'd be very interested in studying material that relates to Jesus being 'legitimate' (by bloodline?) - my assumption is that he was personally charismatic.
Well it is not as if this "material " is unavailable. It is at your fingertips these days, it is not as if one has to trawl libraries for source material anymore. Try starting here>>
There is here an author that may interest you on the matter of "legitimate bloodline". His titles include - Genesis of the Grail Kings. Bloodline of the Grail. Lost secrets of the Sacred Ark.
Or here>>
Or here>>>
What about here>
All the authors I have read on the matter of legitimate royal bloodline and duality of priest and king have all individually came to the same conclusion, that this Christos =anointed man Jesus was heir to the dual role as legitimate priest and king. Of course you can dismiss all of the years that all of these authors have put into this subject simply because YOU haven't fkn bothered to research fkall for yourself.
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@keithprosser
--> @Stephen, @disgustedAs what 'Historic Christ' means is open to interpretation, what I believe is that the divine Jesus is a fictional character based on a real human being.
Stop with your fkn semantics FFS! You know I /we are talking about a Jesus the crucified one,. Whether he was an anointed i.e a Christ is - I agree - debatable if one choose to ignore that he was anointed three fkn times in the NT. Christ does not mean "divine" it simply means anointed. he was anointed king and priest. I DON'T BELIEVE IN A FKN DIVINE CHRIST EITHER. <<<<<<<<<< is that fkn clear enough for you both!???
I have made my position very clear , many times on what I believe about Jesus THE CHRIST - anointed. You may be trying to play both sides of the fence in not wanting to disagree with that vile agitating bastard, disgusted, but you know exactly what we have been discussing. So you keep encouraging and appeasing the vile bastard to derail your thread, he just laps it up.
And I haven't lied about you either.
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@disgusted
Then why did you lie here?That depends on what you- now a believer in the historic Christ--> .
You really have trouble understanding just about everything don't.
This is what prosser has said :
@keithprosser post #1. I can accept that Jesus was partly historical, and that he was very likely crucified.
Look at that line and digest it slowly. Prosser, you see,would not have claimed that Jesus was very likely crucified on one hand and then deny his historical existence, on the other. Even the world most backward cretin would have worked that out for himself.
Also , he wouldn't have said;
@keithprosser post #4 I think that Jesus was a person,....... I think he probably did say some of the things ascribed to him,........ I think he probably was crucified,
That is why I have stated that I agree with him. Your provocation is going nowhere. How anyone ever believed it was a good idea to allow such a vile person as you back on this forum is totally beyond me!!
If prosser believes I have lied about him, then he can take it up with me. he is far,far more smarter than you and i am sure he doesn't need the forums vile buffon to speak on his behalf.
NOW HAVE SOME FUCKING RESPECT FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S THREAD INSTEAD OF USING IT AS A BATTLEGROUND FOR YOUR PERSONNEL ATTACK ON ME.
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@keithprosser
I'd say that everything up to Judges has almost zero historicity.......We start with genesis full of legends, miracles and magic
So you believe then, Exodus - Leviticus - Numbers - Deuteronomy and Joshua are all fiction?
So you are claiming then that the characters and places and events in the first 5 books of the Old Testament are all fiction?
So educated scholars such as Ahmed Osam , Dr David Rohl, Sir Laurence Gardner - to name a few - are all delusional in your opinion and have simply wasted absolute years - some a lifetime - inventing evidence to support the existence of the Old Testament characters, places and events? The last two being atheist.
You are dismissing people who are in a much better position than you to discuss these things far too easily, but you are more than welcome to that ignorant opinion.
But you see, biblical scholars and archaeologist look past those thing that you refer to as " legends, miracles and magic" and strive to discover what it is that lies behind these "legends, miracles and magic". Where as you, like many other ignorant fkrs just simply dismiss these biblical accounts as you do the findings of those above mentioned scholars,with a wave of your ignorant hand.
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You keep claiming that keith accepts the historical Christ when he specifically rejects the historicity of a Christ but admits the partial historicity of a Jesus character, your insistence that keith accepts the Christ character as historical is simply dishonest.
I see you just want to cause an argument on someone else's behalf on what is someone else's thread.
I suggest you go back an try to read posts 3/4&5.
I am in total agreement with processor for once. And I say so. I too believe in a historical Jesus minus the miracles. I hope that clears that up.
This may help you as I understand you cannot cope with one or more sentence all at once, being the vile buffoon that you are.
here >>
--> @keithprosser post #1. I can accept that Jesus was partly historical, and that he was very likely crucified.
he goes on to admit
@keithprosser post #4 I think that Jesus was a person,not a god or a divinity. I think he probably did say some of the things ascribed to him, but he couldn't perform miracles. I think he probably was crucified, but he certainly wasn't born of a virgin.
I responded at post #5
So do most level headed biblical historians. but this is the first time I have heard you admit that and I agree.
So stop trying to stir shit on this thread that was flowing along coherently and amicably before someone believed it would be a good idea to allow you, a complete and utter vile buffoon to rejoin the forum community.
If prosser believes I have lied about him then let him take it up with me and not allow you to invent 'crimes' on his behalf and complain on his behalf.
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@Mopac
No, my beef is that no matter what answer you receive you are going to put it in one of those categories.
Your above response comes under at least three of those categories.
You have your mind made up, and you are simply making a mockery of the subject.
No I haven't. That is why all end with the question why and a question mark. I would like you or any other of the faithful flock simply to explain them.
Which is a shame, because some of these would otherwise be good questions.
Questions are neither good or bad, they are just questions. They are questions that you should be able to approach without calling me a "wanker".
If your intentions were pure, you'd get alot more. Instead you want to be a wanker.
What you think of me is irrelevant. i don't care. I want you, as a proud member and supporter of the Catholic Orthodox Church to explain to me WHY,
God tells Moses to go free his people but then has to get permission from his father-in law to do so. ?
God knows that Pharaoh will not let them go because God admits to purposely hardening the heart of Pharaoh.?
God wants Moses dead all over a foreskin ?
And why cannot the bible make up its mind who Moses' father in-law is?
Wank
Not very Christian-like, but I think that would come under the new category of ignorant replies - i.e.
'I don't know the answers to your awkward questions and I am far too embarrassed to try to explain something I do not understand or know ; Unless you will let me get away with making something up like we always do when we believers have our backs to the wall.'?
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@keithprosser
I'd say that everything up to Judges has almost zero historicity.
Why?
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@Mopac
No one cares.
That comes under number one of non explanations.
(1) From the literalist: who are we to question God. Translation; 'I don't know.
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@Mopac
Keep frothing at the mouth, it makes people take you seriously.
That will come under number one of non explanations.
(1) From the literalist: who am we to question God. Translation; 'I don't know'.
Translation: give me something I can argue with.
It is not for me to help you explain away these ambiguous verses. That is your job. And you obviously missed the fact that it is explanations that I am looking for not necessarily an argument.
God tells Moses to go free his people but then has to get permission from his father-in law to do so. Why?
God knows that Pharaoh will not let them go because God admits to purposely hardening the heart of Pharaoh. Why?
God wants Moses dead all over a foreskin. Why ?
And why cannot the bible make up its mind who Moses' father in-law is?
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@Mopac
Translation: give me something I can argue with.
Just as I suspected, you don't know and you fit the standard explained here below.
(1) From the literalist: who am I/we to question God. Translation; 'I don't know'.
(2) From the Christian non literalist: It says that but it actaully means this. Translation; I don't know, but am going to invent an answer so I do not look to be ignorant of my own scriptures'.
(3) from the Christian dogmatist: We don't just have faith but dogma - Translation; the faithful have an unwarranted stubborness of opinion and are very poor at hiding it.
(4) from the Jew & Christian: It is a mistake and we have to make the obvious assumption. Translation; 'we don't know, but I won't admit to not knowing'.
The fact is you simply do not know do you? You have probably never read the parts that I have pointed out because your teacher didn't tell you to turn to those verses and then translate them for you as is customary for a teacher who wants to avoid being questioned and scrutinised on a subject he should know about.
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And why cannot the bible make up its mind who Moses' father in-law is?
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@Mopac
I am not offended that you revile me. I know it is because before you hated me, you hated The Truth.
Ah I see the truth now. That's what all this is about isn't it? You being the victim and wanting to be reviled and be the persecuted " for his name sake" to guarantee your reward.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
I see now why you encourage ridicule, and mockery and beg to be reviled at every chance you get.
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@Mopac
I love it when people think they are scientific because they have read a lot of books on science.
I don't love it when people read the bible, don't understand what it is they are reading, take it at face value without question, and then start preaching what is or is not the truth.
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Leaving aside baskets, bulrushes & bullshit, the story of Moses doesn't make sense in many parts and for many reasons. Here are some of those reasons
God tells Moses to go free his people but then has to get permission from his father-in law to do so. Why?
God knows that Pharaoh will not let them go because God admit to purposely hardening the heart of Pharaoh. Why?
God wants Moses dead all over a foreskin. Why ?
I will here preempt all and any responses that I don't need to hear.
(1) From the literalist: who am I/we to question God. Translation; 'I don't know'.
(2) From the Christian non literalist: It says that but it actaully means this. Translation; I don't know, but am going to invent an answer so I do not look to be ignorant of my own scriptures'.
(3) from the Christian dogmatist: We don't just have faith but dogma - Translation; the faithful have an unwarranted stubborness of opinion and are very poor at hiding it.
(4) from the Jew & Christian: It is a mistake and we have to make the obvious assumption. Translation; 'we don't know, but I won't admit to not knowing'.
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@keithprosser
Then why bother at all.Everyone needs a hobby!
I take it that you've never heard of plant pots and compost, then
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It seems we agree that the bible makes the Jews out to be the bad guys.
That's right, they were Jewish bad guys, priests to be precise and not Christian bad guys. The point is he was killed for many reasons and The high Priesthood, The Romans and Herodians all had their own reasons for wanting him gone.
But.... the Christianity that really took off was Paul's 'gentile friendly'
Which is something that is accepted by most academics.
I think Jews - especially Jews inside Israel - may have been sympathetic to Jesus, but less so to Paul's reformulation.
The Jewish population of Jerusalem didn't even know who he was although a "messiah" was expected" anytime soon. This was another danger Jesus was at pains to keep quiet about, that would indeed have caused the Romans to be put to death immediately and probably without trial when it is understood what was expected of a messiah
But I want to learn more about the relevant history and my opinions may change...
Don't you mean the consequences? The relevance simply boils down to religion and nothing much else, one is a believer or he isn't. That is unless you really want to know why all this shite is going on and has been since the days of Mesopotamia and continues right up to this present time or age. The system hasn't changed. Some of the consequences are obvious as you have pointed out: Jews or Romans or both get the blame for deliberately doing away with the "son of god" according to Christians causing animosity and war over the years. The fact is that they done away with a bloodline who's time had come to inherit the throne - or they thought they had, some believe it continues to this day, which isn't an impossibility at all.
But we are well off the subject of atonement and I don't see many responses coming your way on this matter from the Christian community.
but I don't think there is much hope of finding anything deifnitive now, after 2000 years!!
Then why bother at all.
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@Mopac
Did Moses know that he was being used to help prepare the church of Jesus Christ?The Word of God is Jesus Christ. That being the case, Jesus Chriist was with Moses. The Law was given to Moses, because "Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God", and the purpose of The Law was to guide Israel into purity of heart.
Sorry but that is absolute claptrap and bullshit; and on many levels. this is beside the fact that you simply have nothing to support that belief. You, as all believers do, have simply made that shite up on the hoof.
I am not interested in whether you accept what I say or not , I honestly don't care, it is what you have to say that interests me. As long as it is not your usual perpetual mantra.Well then for the benefit of others who may be interested in whether I accept what you just said or not, I of course think it is a load of neo-gnostic pagan nonsense.
And I would not expect any other response from some who has been told to turn to a page, read what is on that page only then to have what you have read with your own eyes explained and interpreted for you. If you believe that what I have pointed out to you is "neo-gnostic pagan nonsense" then this would surely make the Christ and his beliefs pagan also. It is the Christ of the NT that clearly references what is going on above our heads and this was how he was able to call out the false roman appointed priests with statements such as this;
"And n the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times"?
Here he was telling the Roman appointed false priest if they were able to understand what was going on above their heads they would know it was his time to rule not just has high priest, but as king of the jews also. . And many of priests did understand the signs of the times or the age and became Jesus' "secret disciples" for fear that they may be killed.
There are many references to astronomy and astrology written by the gospelers themselves. Are you saying they were practicing paganism also? As I keep saying, you simply do not understand your own fkn scriptures, you are a lazy individual who has to be led like sheep with your teacher as your shepherd who has continuously guided you to passages of his choosing while leading you away and avoiding the more problematic, complicated and complex verses that he doesn't understand either.
Nonsense that if you hold on to will be a stumbling block to knowing Jesus Christ.
You said it.
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@Mopac
He is important in that The Orthodox Catholic Church is Israel, and Moses was used by God to help prepare the church for Jesus Christ.
Did Moses know that he was being used to help prepare the church of Jesus Christ?
The Mosaic religion ended in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple.
I don't think so, but that is very debatable. Moses was of the celestial house of the ram hence all the references to rams and rams horns. There are over 40 references to the ram and all come in the Old Testament. And depending on which gospel you take literally, Jesus was the last of the shepherd kings and he ushered in the new celestial house of the Fish - Pieces hence all the references to fish and fishermen in the New Testament. And it has to be taken into account that there is at least 5-7oo years missing from these histories - from the end of the OT to the beginning of the NT that can only be gleaned from extra biblical literature. Astrology and astronomy played a massive part in the lives of the ancients. It was a vital science to them. They swore by what was going on in the "heavens" and were ruled by what was going on in the "heavens". The movements and positions of stars and planets was their calendar " for it is where it is written", what happened above the heads of these ancients ruled their lives and dictated, among other things, whose time it was to rule or more precise, which house was to rule. And Jesus makes this fact very clear.
I am not interested in whether you accept what I say or not , I honestly don't care, it is what you have to say that interests me. As long as it is not your usual perpetual mantra.
Anyway I just wanted your opinion on why Moses was important to your church.
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@keithprosser
I'd say Jesus was executeda) by the Jewish religious establishment for religious reasonsor b) by the Roman authorities for political reasonsor c) both!
Well if we are to take the scripture at face value then the story is pretty clear why Jesus was put to death. They wanted him gone. He posed a threat that could cause them to lose everything :
If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."
and here for once, all four gospellers agree that Jesus was arrested because the elders wanted to kill him, (Matthew 26:3-4; Mark 14:1-2; Luke 22:2; John 11:53). But the charges varied! Matthew 26:21 states “This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days”. Mark 14: 58-59 tells us the same but adds “and within three days I will build another made without hands”. Matthew then tells us,
“Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death”. Matthew 26:56-66.KJV
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@keithprosser
I think that Jesus was a person,not a god or a divinity.
So do most level headed biblical historians. but this is the first time I have heard you admit that and I agree.
I think he probably did say some of the things ascribed to him, but he couldn't perform miracles.
That depends on what you- now a believer in the historic Christ - would call a miracle.
I think he probably was crucified, but he certainly wasn't born of a virgin.
Not as it is peached in the gospels and by the preachers, I agree. Again, it would come down to understanding, but we are drifting from the original purpose of your post concerning attomment.
I hope that clears up what I mean by 'partly historical'.
Yes it's taken you years to admit that though, hasn't it, usually you dismiss the whole lot of the scriptures and the existence of the Christ, and this is the first time I have seen you admit to believing in an historic Christ. Maybe now we could possibly have a proper conversation about these gospels without having to prefix everything with "if jesus existed" or suffix everything with "if one believes he existed" every time Jesus of the gospels is discussed. It is this purposeful ignorance by you that has stifled what could have been many a decent theological conversation between us. But I will wager that you will fall back to form before long. You just can't help being contrary for the sake of it because you are a pompous, self satisfied, smug git, who believes in his own self importance.
They agree Jesus was crucified, but not about why or how it helped with man's sinfulness.
I have given my reasons why the christ was put to death. Now that you believe he existed, why do you believe he was put to death? I think we might agree that it had absolutely nothing to do with relieving us of the burden of our sins.
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@Mopac
Mopac,
How important is Moses to the Orthodox Catholic Church? And why?
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@keithprosser
I can accept that Jesus was partly historical,
Eh! ??????? he either existed or he didn't. This is you sitting on the fence again, isn't it. So which is , did Jesus exist or didn't he?
and that he was very likely crucified.
Eh!????? "very likely"?? Why only very likely?
Over the centuries, Christian theologians have speculated on why it was necessary that Jesus had to suffer and die.
Yes they have and it all boils down to the fact - in short and simplified - that he was a legitimate heir to the High Priesthood this was heresy in the eyes of the serving Roman appointed high priesthood, not to mention that this claim threatened their lucrative positions as "false priests", which they were more concerned about.. And his pedigree put him up as the legitimate king of the Jews, but this only niggled the Romans and could have brought charges of lese majesty as they had installed their own puppet king, Herod , whom was an Arab. The truth here though is that the Romans didn't actually care who was "king of the Jews" as long as he buckled down and kept his people in order. They all between them conspired to rid themselves of the legitimate Priest King Jesus.
To put it even shorter and simpler, Jesus was a pain in the arse agitating zealot who had at his core a inner circle of rich men of high status and position & rich women of substance who were also zealots and who believed his claim as legitimate heir to the throne.
It seems that there is no consensus among Christians about its most central events! They agree Jesus was crucified, but not about why or how it helped with man's sinfulness.
There are many things the gospels themselves cannot agree on. Including what day the Christ was crucified. And you cannot get off the fence either, one minute your calling it all myth and telling us at post #45 here that ;
Of course are talking about legend, not history! https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1952?page=2
and the next you are telling us you accept a "partly historical Jesus" . Seems to me you want to cut this cake all ways when it suits you.
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@keithprosser
And why your fixation on just 10 of these commandments when in truth there are over 600 including:
How to sell your daughter and kill a disobedient son and how to treat your slaves. The Old Testament is a vile book of war and dictatorship with nothing in between.
But at least now, here in the 21st century Jews/Israelis over the centuries have actually taken the right steps required in a ever changing world and have abandoned these vile practices unlike Islam where, as Raza Rumi so clearly states that , in Islam the "requirements of a changing world have been sidestepped". But of course you know this don't you keith, it is from your link on this thread here>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1707 and the link you asked me to look at but it seems, didn't bother to read it for yourself.
The prospect for reform in Islam: https://www.hudson.org/research/11172-the-prospects-for-reform-in-islam
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@Mopac
I asked you at post #28
"Do you have an authentic archaeological record of the handing down of authority personally by The Christ, like the Sumerians kept a full and complete list of who and when authority of Kingship was handed down by the Lords of the day pre OT times?"
You confidently responded:
Post # 30
Actually, yes, bishops do trace their ordinations back to ancient times, all the way back to the apostles who were commissioned by Christ.
And only now when your back is against the wall and I have asked you to produce this evidence, you plead ignorance and not understanding what it is I have asked you. by telling me:
I don't know what you mean by biblical archaeological evidence.
I have exposed you to be a liar and a fake. You should be downright ashamed of yourself.
I do know that church history has been documented very thoroughly.
Yes, you have said so simply let us see the biblical archaeological record.
And I wasn't asking for a list of ordinations handed down to men by other men.
We have continuity that goes back to the beginning.
No you don't, stop telling lies. Or simply let us see it for ourselves, where can we find it?
And the scriptures belong to us
Such arrogance and pompicity. NO! the scriptures do not "belong to you". You keep forgetting the The Chrsit was a fkn Jew. The word Christian only appears 3 times in the WHOLE OF THE BIBLE!!! and long after The Christs death, you fool.
I am m being very polite, and I would appreciate it if you engaged me with respect
I suggest you do the same and stop insulting my intelligence. You have lied and backtracked, You have stuttered and stubbled in desperation to claim the moral high ground. A person has no morals when he has to stoop to fakery and downright lies. You do not understand your own scriptures.
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@keithprosser
I wonder if ancient Hebrews culture and religion derives much more from Mesopotamia than Egypt.
As you probably know but for reasons known only to yourself, are pretending not to know that The Old Testament clearly states where Abraham originated from, on more than one occasion. I am sure mopac wouldn't want to accept these facts but there they are for anyone to read .
Oh I get it,! You don't believe a word of the bible do you, and you, as usual,do not want to commit yourself to appear to be supporting a myth or a "legend". Why do you even bother? When you have two of your own abandon threads waiting for answers, here https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1707
And here
But there again any civilised society is going to outlaw things like murder and theft and will want to discourage challenges to established authority. The similarity could be due to shared purpose rather than explicit borrowing.
Ya don't say
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@Mopac
Do you really want to hear otherwise, or do you have your mind made up?
Yes and no. I am always willing to change my original beliefs and understandings if the evidence for me to do so is forthcoming, reliable, undisputable, and verifiable. That's not too much to ask is it.
I'll be honest with you, I don't think that if I was even capable of satisfying your demands for signs that you would come to believe.
So you are not capable then of showing me the recorded biblical archaeological evidence that god handed down the authority to interpret these ancient biblical scriptures to the Orthodox Catholic Church, even after you were adamant that you could.
.
So lets save ourselves the trouble.
Why don't you just cut to the chase and offer up the biblical archaeological evidence that you say you have. This would shut a few sceptical mouths , including my own. You see ancient peoples recorded everything when it came to Kingship and religion and whether one chooses to believe these ancient records is entirely a choice. I happen to believe the Sumerian accounts of these ancient peoples and those they refer to as lords, and I do so for many reasons and far too many to explain here.
So you have wasted my time and your own and have done your god and your religion no favours. On the contrary, you have let it down miserably, and done both a terrible disservice. (1) by lying, (2) by not producing the evidence you once said that you possessed.
This is the 21st century and making extraordinary claims is one thing but making claims without the extraordinary evidence to support the extraordinary claim is something entirely different, it is downright ignorant and an insult to the intelligence of those listening to your extraordinary claims.
I would accept your right to make these claims as long as you offered up the fact that everything you claim is entirely faith based. But you cannot even bring yourself to accept that fact or admit it openly.
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@Mopac
Actually, yes, bishops do trace their ordinations back to ancient times, all the way back to the apostles who were commissioned by Christ.
Great! And you will be showing us the recorded ancient archaeological evidence of the Christ giving authority that allows the "Orthodox Catholic Church" to interpret these ancient Hebrew scriptures although Jesus was in fact a Jew and by his own admission tells us: - " I was sent solely to the lost sheep of Israel", will you?
I stand by all the rest of my answers.
-
You haven't really answered anything yet . But thank you; and I do look forward to your recorded ancient archaeological evidence, that shows the Christ handing down authority to the Orthodox Catholic Church that gives them sole authority to interpret the ancient Hebrew scriptures as they will, although (1) there was no Orthodox Catholic Church at the time of Christ, (2) Jesus the Christ was a Jew (3) Jesus the Christ was King of the Jews and not king of Christians (4) Jesus the Jewish anointed was leader of a Jewish sect and not a leader of a Orthodox Catholic organisation.
I do love biblical archaeology. bfn
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Our bandwidth for creative endeavours and other seemingly superfluous pursuits owes entirely to the fact that in most of the world, we've conquered the basic needs.
And now some people cannot distinguish between their wants and their needs. Today almost everything (including bad ideas) is sold to us a must have or need when it is anything but. Things are sold to us as a need through veiled fear too.
And barring a great catastrophe, this will probably be the death of humans imo.
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@Mopac
The Bible is a collection of many different writings. It is also not really yours to interpret. It is our book, and we know its proper intended use.
And exactly how does "we know"? Who showed you how to interpret these scriptures and where did they get their knowledge and more so; where did they get the authority to say how words and verses of these ancient scriptures should be interpreted?
The Holy Spirit is with The Orthodox Catholic Church.
That doesn't answer my question
By the authority of Jesus Christ to the glory of God The Father
Ok and when was this authority handed down by the Christ? Do you have an authentic archaeological record of the handing down of authority personally by The Christ, like the Sumerians kept a full and complete list of who and when authority of Kingship was handed down by the Lords of the day pre OT time?
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During this strict religious observance of the religion of peace and while our weak-kneed politicians were wishing every muslim in the world joy happiness and of course peace, muslims elsewhere were clocking up the death toll elsewhere too. So in the name of fairness;
Terror in the name of Islam - Attacks Kills
173 861
All other religions combined - 0 0
By "right wing" or anti muslim
extremists - 1 1
"Happy and peaceful Eid al-Fitr" , indeed.
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@Goldtop
The TC were probably some oral traditions handed down over time until written mediums were developed.
These commandments according to E.A. Wallis Budge late keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities in the British Museum; in his transliteration of the Book of the Dead has texts called The Negative Confessions of Ani. amongst which one will find lines such as;
Ani saith:
“I have not done iniquity”.
“I have not robbed with Violence”.
“I have not stolen”.
“I have not done murder”.
“I have not done harm”.
“I have not plundered God”.
" I have not defrauded offerings”.
“I have not committed fornication”.
“I have not set my lips against any man”
“I have not defiled the wife of any man”
I have not caused pain” (The papyrus of Ani).
The Egyptian Book of the Dead. (The papyrus of Ani). Egyptian Transliteration and Translation. Dover Publications. New York.1967. page 347-349.
And Moses has similar written by - some believe - the finger of God amongst His commandments;
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Exodus 20:13-17.NKJV
So it seems that is all Moses (which is not a name at all but a title) has done, is turn a prayer of Egyptian confessions from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, into laws and dictates.
The same can be said for what is known as ' The Lord's Prayer', this too is believed by some to be an Egyptian original - A Prayer to Amen.
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@ludofl3x
And an imagination that I believe out-strips anything else living on the planet.
I did say among many other things. For instance, us humans do things that we do not need to do and that contribute absolutely nothing to our survival. Animals seem to only do what is needed to do for them to survive.
Examples would be a our creativeness in writing, art, drama and of course music, all unnecessary traits that we do not need to do, but do regardless. All this is opinion of course but just these few things appear to be unique only to humankind and again, in my opinion, set us apart from other animals.
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@janesix
Is our knowledge of good and evil the main thing that sets us apart from animals?
I doubt it is the "main thing". What isn't good to one human is maybe perfectly acceptable to others. Cannibalism for instance is abhorrently evil to most people here in the west and many other places but is still believed to be practiced in places across the globe.
I would suggest conscience or consciousness among many other things that separate humans from animals.
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@Mopac
The Bible is a collection of many different writings. It is also not really yours to interpret. It is our book, and we know its proper intended use.
And exactly how does "we know"? Who showed you how to interpret these scriptures and where did they get their knowledge and more so; where did they get the authority to say how words and verses of these ancient scriptures should be interpreted?
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The interesting part of this is the celebration of the end of Ramadan itself. You see while our pandering and appeasing Members of Parliament here in the UK were " sending our very best wishes and peace and happiness to muslim constituants here in the United Kingdom & around the world" who were celebrating the end of fast, muslim
"Houthis kill imam & 9 worshippers for following Saudi Eid al-Fitr moon sighting".
For those too ignorant to research Eid or Eid al-Fitr, it also called the "Festival of Breaking the Fast", a religious holiday celebrated by Muslims worldwide that marks the end of Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting.
Deary me, how can it be so wrong to speak to your god at a time of one's own choosing..
An afterthought;
Yet not a mention or best wishes, love or even peace to all our 151,816 Buddhist constituents here in the UK and around the world.
The important days of the month for Buddhists are days when there is a full moon or a new moon. The main Buddhist festival of the year is Buddha Day / Wesak / Vaisakha, the celebration of the Buddha's birth, enlightenment and death.
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@disgusted
How did the alleged hebrews kearn Alpha Centaurian, especially since they believed that stars were just little lights in the dome above their flat earth?
Where is your evidence to support that claim? How do you know that the ancient Hebrews believed that the stars were only "just little lights in the sky" ? And how do you know that the ancient Hebrews were believers in the "flat earth" when the Old Testament indicates otherwise?
Or do we file this under as yet another ridiculous and outrageous unsupported claim of yours along with these below?
@disgusted "we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
No proof offered by the claimant.
@disgusted "the word god did not exist before the middle ages"
No proof offered by the claimant.
@disgusted "We all exist in the same reality"
No proof offered by the claimant
but unavoidable in the enlightening of man@disgusted Then how did cavemen come up with it?
Do you have evidence for that claim? Did "cavemen " have a religion? Did they worship gods?
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@disgusted
but unavoidable in the enlightening of man@disgusted Then how did cavemen come up with it?
Do you have evidence for that claim? Did "cavemen " have a religion? Did they worship gods?
Or do we file this under as yet another ridiculous and outrageous unsupported claim of yours along with these below?
@disgusted "we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
No proof offered by the claimant.
@disgusted "the word god did not exist before the middle ages"
No proof offered by the claimant.
@disgusted "We all exist in the same reality"
No proof offered by the claimant
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