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@keithprosser
My point is not to defend Islam or sharia - which I detest.
Why do you detest Islam and Shariah its Islamic canonical law based on the teachings of the Koran ?
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@Harikrish
The role of Christianity in African slavery
No one has dealt more in the slavery of black AND white people than muslims have have. They invented the "trade" and continue it to this day with anyone who isn't muslim. Over 14000 white female children were taken, raped, prostituted and taken as sex slaves just in Rotherham UK alone.
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@disgusted
You seem proud of displaying your gross ignorance to the world .......
Opinion, but not an answer.
But you are standing by this statement of yours aren't you?
--> @disgusted Everyone lives in the same reality,
Ok. So why do you not simply explain to us all how it is that a bushman from Papua New Guinea can be "living in the same reality" as $$$$$ billionaire George Clooney (hollywood star) and Amal Clooney (high flying British barrister who specialising in international law and human rights and who jointly own over 30 properties worth billions?
Come on now, here is your chance to educate us all . Don't pass it up.
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--> @disgusted
--> @disgustedEveryone lives in the same reality,--> @Stephen Another profound statement from our resident philosopher, physicist, scientist,naturalist, geologist, archaeologist, theologist and all round egghead. Now is all he has to do is produce the evidence to support his claim. This should be extremely interesting.For instance: how does the reality of a bushman from Papua New Guinea compare to the reality of Hollywood star multi millionaire George Clooney and his multi millionaire wife Amal Clooney the British barrister who specialising in international law and human rights and who jointly own over 30 properties worth billions?Come on now, lets have it .--> @disgustedSo you don't understand reality either, sad.
So you are at a loss and can't explain yourself or your claim then.. No surprises there then. So yet another ill thought - out statement from the man who demands citations, proofs and evidence of others but simply falls flat and fails to do so when requested to so concerning his own preposterous claims.
He' has a track record for this kind of behaviour of double standards and hypocrisy.
Here is another failure by him to produce evidence for his claims while demanding others produce citations, proofs,and evidence for theirs.
--> @disgusted https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1714? post #5
"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
"YOU PROVE IT"! Simply back it up. Explain to us all with supporting evidence the appearance of humans. Just saying the words; "the theory of evolution" doesn't support what you claim. It is just a title of the proposed theory and nothing else.
Explain how humans appeared "almost out of nowhere" according to Darwin's co discoverer Alfred Wallace. So why don't YOU explain to us what Darwin and Wallace were at a loss to explain and what anthropologists have failed to prove. Explain to us with evidence why science has now reached a point where many feel severe discomfort with the evolutionary theory as it applies to Homo Sapiens?
Your audience awaits answers and explanations to both the above irresponsible claptrap claims that you have made.
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@disgusted
Everyone lives in the same reality,
Another profound statement from our resident philosopher, physicist, scientist,naturalist, geologist, archaeologist, theologist and all round egghead. Now is all he has to do is produce the evidence to support his claim. This should be extremely interesting.
For instance: how does the reality of a bushman from Papua New Guinea compare to the reality of Hollywood star multi millionaire George Clooney and his multi millionaire wife Amal Clooney the British barrister who specialising in international law and human rights and who jointly own over 30 properties worth billions?
Come on now, lets have it .
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@disgusted
The floor is yours child, supply citations.
There you go again. demanding proof, evidence and "citations" but fail miserably to do the same when called upon to prove your outrageous claims.
--> @disgusted https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1714? post #5
"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
"YOU PROVE IT"! Simply back it up. Explain to us all with supporting evidence the appearance of humans. Just saying the words; "the theory of evolution" doesn't support what you claim. It is just a title of the proposed theory and nothing else.
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So please stop with your bullshit and buffoonery by denying the quran doesn't incite psychopaths to violence and intolerance as it clearly does.Your pathetic responses have been rejected without any response. Goodbye
Yes, goodby and thank you for re quoting me in part, but I don't deny the quran incites muslims to violence and intolerance as it clearly does as I have shown to many times you closet racist bigot. It was you after all calling ALL muslims "stupid" and of ALL having "serious mental issues" and ALL muslims are in dire need "of psychiatric intervention" simply for having a faith and a god and a prophet that they believe in, wasn't it. <<<<< That is spreading hatred and bigotry you buffon and I am amazed you have been allowed to state and get away with such things on an open forum. It's early days yet though. Maybe when the mods wake up to your vile racist bigotry they may do something about you.
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@disgusted
"Have you actually considered DEATH?"Your answer is a resounding NO, otherwise you wouldn't need to talk about what you think other people think.
So now you resort to lies and opinion and assumptions.
This is what you wrote
@disgusted post #1 You know, actually considered what death is without your religious prejudices?
And I have responded with:
Many non religious people believe in the after life. Belief in life after death has increased over the past 40 years despite increasing levels of atheism.
It isn't " what I think others think either", you ignorant buffon. It is what has been learned by research, conducted by people with better, bigger and more intelligent brains than you. Read the bold and underlined and stop showing your ignorance even if it is just for once
I have quoted from the NYT that in 2016 ran an headline - "We believe in an afterlife... but not in God". The study was conducted by San Diego State University, and had questioned almost 59,000 people and found that women were more likely to believe in Heaven than men and those with a higher level of education were less likely to be religious.
Researchers found that the number of atheists in the United States for instance is at a record high, almost doubling between 1984 and 2014 to 22 per cent. Between 1972 and 2014 belief in the afterlife rose from 73 to 80 per cent.
This is why I have said above - do you not EVER research anything at all before you post something so ignorant.
Now run along and let this be a lesson to you, you silly attention seeking, vile little man.
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@disgusted
At least I have forced you to get a little more honest about the threat Islam posesThe independent, couldn't you find another comic book? hahahahahaha
In denial as usual. Those are government figures issued by MI5, you buffoon.
A couple of thousand Muslims out of a population of 1.5 billion are bad bastards,
At least I have forced you to get a little more honest about the threat Islam poses but you will find it is more than " a couple of thousand muslims" There are to up to 25,000 Islamist extremists in the UK alone who pose a real threat, EU official warns. With 3,000 considered a direct threat by MI5 .
So please stop with your bullshit and buffoonery by denying the quran doesn't incite psychopaths to violence and intolerance as it clearly does.
Thank you for re quoting me in part, but I don't deny the quran incites muslims to violence and intolerance as it clearly does as I have shown to many times you closet racist bigot. It was you after all calling ALL muslims "stupid" and of ALL having "serious mental issues" and ALL muslims are in dire need "of psychiatric intervention" simply for having a faith and a god and a prophet that they believe in, wasn't it. <<<<< That is spreading hatred and bigotry you buffon and I am amazed you have been allowed to state and get away with such things on an open forum. It's early days yet though. Maybe when the mods wake up to your vile racist bigotry they may do something about you.
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@disgusted
A couple of thousand Muslims out of a population of 1.5 billion are bad bastards,
At least I have forced you to get a little more honest about the threat Islam poses but you will find it is more than " a couple of thousand muslims" There are to up to 25,000 Islamist extremists in the UK alone who pose threat, EU official warns. With 3,000 considered a direct threat by MI5 .
So please stop with your bullshit and buffoonery by denying the quran doesn't incite psychopaths to violence and intolerance as it clearly does.
Thank you for re quoting me in part, but I don't deny the quran incites muslims to violence and intolerance as it clearly does as I have shown to many times you closet racist bigot. It was you after all calling ALL muslims "stupid" and of ALL having "serious mental issues" and ALL muslims are in dire need "of psychiatric intervention" simply for having a faith and a god and a prophet that they believe in, wasn't it. <<<<< That is spreading hatred and bigotry you buffon and I am amazed you have been allowed to state and get away with such things on an open forum. It's early days yet though. Maybe when the mods wake up to your vile racist bigotry they may do something about you.
I love it when I force you to admit the truth and force you to expose your nasty racist bigotry. , it must be killing you.
Now answer me this, why do you feel it is ok for me to criticize christianity and the bible yet you scream and cry like a little bitch when I question and criticize Islam in exactly the same way? Why are you not screaming christianophobe when I address, scrutinize and criticise the bible?
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@disgusted
I guess I need to be a numpty to understand that your irrelevant response answered this question"Have you actually considered DEATH?"in your world of fantasy.
Stop your lying. What you have wrote was:
You know, actually considered what death is without your religious prejudices?
And I have responded with:
Many non religious people believe in the after life. Belief in life after death has increased over the past 40 years despite increasing levels of atheism. Now read it slow particularly the part where I state - non religious people. You see these would be the people who
"consider death without religious prejudices"
Because they are NON RELIGIOUS. Do you understand it now you ignorant buffoon.
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@disgusted
so what are you arguing again?
Whether or not I am a Cristianophobe. Did you miss the title.
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@disgusted
So your answer is a resounding NO.
Learn to read. I said religion doesn't always play a part in whether one believes in life after death. Why are you struggling with such an easy sentence.
Here read it slowly so your brain has time to digest it and understand.I have emboldened it, spaced it and underlined it for you.
Many - non religious people - believe in the after life. Belief in life after death has increased over the past 40 years despite increasing levels of atheism.
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"As to those who reject faith,I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, norwill they have anyone to help."This is God not really telling followed to do so. You can't accept this as a call to action from Muslims because it mentions "I" as in God who supposedly wrote the Quran.
Then you are not reading it for what it actually is as you have done all of these verses. Look at this verse from the MUSLIM point of view. Muslims are being told that those MUSLIMS who reject the faith "will be punished with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter". Now ask yourself would rejection the faith of Islam mean that you won't carry out Allah's instructions of Quran 5;33 for instance which states – unless, those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth to cause corruption/mischief is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cutoff from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for thema disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment?
And what about rejecting the faith by refusing the instructions in Quran 51 - You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah Guides not the wrongdoing people?
And what about this vile verse that speaks of perpetual jihad - Quran 8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.Now I have said that not all muslims are extremist terrorists and many have rejected the faith, but then look at the punishment for apostasy; that is those who reject the Islamic faith. 9.84.57. - ISLAM AND APOSTASY" ProphetMuhammad said: Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
That is enough to make any Allah fearing muslim stay with the faith , is it not.
And in case you missed it. I have admitted above that the majority of victims of Islam are muslims themselves by far.
And you must have ignored this:
THE MUSLIMS WHO MURDERED LEE RIGBY WERE QUOTING THE QURAN AS THEY TRIED TO HACK OFF THAT POOR BOYS HEAD!
UK jihad murderer handed blood-stained note full of Qur’an quotes to a bystander
1. 4:69-76, 4:84, 9:41
2. 9:24, 9:39, 9:46, 9:87, 9:93
3. 9:67, 3:173, 47:20, 9:86, 9:31, 9:51-5,8:5-6, 2:170
4. 3:160, 9:119, 9:123
5. 9:37, 2:216, 3:142
So please stop with your bullshit and buffoonery by denying the quran doesn't incite muslims to violence and intolerance as it clearly does.
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I'm by no means a defender of religion, but I feel compelled to point out that quoting the Quran as "proof" that Muslims are "crazy"
No that would be someone else on the forum who suggests ALL muslims are "stupid" - "have mental issues" - and are in need of " of psychiatric attention". Did you miss the quotation marks?
seems a bit disingenuous if you don't leap to the same conclusion for Christians and Jews and Hindus and even Buddhists.
That is an opinion. And as I have explained is irrelevant. But you are entitled to ignore anything and everything I say as you obviously have done so or did you just miss the part above where I tell you that I have started more threads debunking, questioning and scrutinising and CRITICIZING Christianity, than I have Islam. But it won't make it anymore relevant to Islam in the 21st century.
All of these groups have committed atrocities at some point against somebody.
Groups, indeed they have. But Christians have not committed violence on non believers on the direct instructions of their Christ god, as muslims have and do, on the direct instructions of their god and scripture.
And yet, all of these groups also contain perfectly reasonable, kind-hearted individuals.
They do. what's your point. Second thoughts forget that , this thread is about MY Christianophobia and If I am christianophobic or not.
Did you miss the part above where I explain directly to YOU that I have started more threads debunking, questioning and scrutinising and CRITICIZING Christianity, than I have Islam.
For example, nearly all KKK members are Christians. Does this mean that all Christians are in the KKK or tacitly support them? Of course not.
And I haven't ever said ALL muslims are terrorist. Did also you miss the part above where I tell YOU directly that I understand perfectly that the largest amount of the victims of Islam are actually muslims.
FFS learn to read, take in and digest. There is nothing worse than having to repeat oneself over and over.
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@3RU7AL
Numbers 31:17-18
Yes vile in the extreme, isn't it? In fact the whole 36 Chapters of Numbers are pretty vile. In fact over 90% of the Old Testament is vile with war, murder, rape, slavery, incest, plagues, famine and executions by beheading. What's your point? By continually trying to contextualise the ancient Hebrew Old Testament - a book that even the Jews didn't, don't and never have recognised as ' their scripture ' with today's Islam in the 21st century is irrelevant.
Continually trying to strike an balance of violence between Christianity and Islam is a non starter too. All apologists for Islam do this when they are all out of argument trying to defend the violence practiced and carried out against non believers by muslims in the 21st century on the instructions of their god and written in their book. So you keep those OT verses coming, throw as many as you like, but they are all irrelevant.
Just to remind you; this thread is actually about me and if I am or am not "christianophobic", because I have started more threads debunking, questioning and scrutinising and CRITICIZING Christianity, than I have Islam, yet no one seems to mind and never have accused me of being a christianophobe. Yet when I talk about Islam I am a bigoted, racist far right "islamophobe" who is no better than the KKK and a preacher of hate, fear & division. I haven't accused ALL muslims of having "serious mental issues" and in dire need "of psychiatric intervention" like someone here has done. I understand perfectly that the largest amount of the victims of Islam are actually muslims.
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@disgusted
considered what death is with out your religious prejudices? Without those human created prejudices why would you believe in an afterlife? What, other than man made religion, is there to even hint at an afterlife.
Do you not EVER research anything at all before you post something so ignorant. Or is this just another attention seeking thread to get your bland, boring and nauseating forum count up.
Many non religious people believe in the after life. Belief in life after death has increased over the past 40 years despite increasing levels of atheism.
Researchers found that the number of atheists in the United States for instance is at a record high, almost doubling between 1984 and 2014 to 22 per cent. Between 1972 and 2014 belief in the afterlife rose from 73 to 80 per cent.
The study, conducted by San Diego State University, questioned almost 59,000 people and found that women were more likely to believe in Heaven than men and those with a higher level of education were less likely to be religious.
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@TheRealNihilist
Can you point to what verse he used to carry out an attack?
Take your pick. These are just a few of over 100 so, so peaceful and so,so tolerant verses inciting muslims to kill the unbeliever and lessons of intolerance toward anyone not believing in Islam or allah
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! Quran 3:56 - "As to those who reject faith,I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, norwill they have anyone to help."
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! Quran 3:151 - We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire,and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.
PEACEFULMY ARSE! Quran 4:89 - They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike.So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! Quran 5:33 – unless, those who wage war against Allah And His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption/mischief is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! Quran 51 - You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [infact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! Quran 8:12 - "I Will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them".
PEACEFUL MY ARSE!.Quran 8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! Quran 8:60 - And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.
PEACEFULMY ARSE! Quran 8:67 - It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah's enemies] in the land.
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! Surah 9:5 - "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush".
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! Quran 9:29 - Fight those who don't believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah (jizyah = tax levied by Muslim on non- - believers or be killed on refusal to pay) willingly while they are humbled.
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! Quran 9:30 - The Jews Say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah." That is their statement from their mouths;they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah Destroy them; how are they deluded?
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! Quran 9:123 - You who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.
PEACEFUL MY ARSE! APOSTASY: Bukhari : 9.84.57. - ISLAM AND APOSTASY" Prophet Muhammad said: Whoever changed his Islamic religion,then kill him."
AND THE MUSLIMS WHO MURDERED LEE RIGBY WERE QUOTINGTHE QURAN AS THEY TRIED TO HACK OFF HIS HEAD.
UK jihad murderer handed blood-stained note full of Qur’an quotes tobystander
1. 4:69-76, 4:84, 9:41
2. 9:24, 9:39, 9:46, 9:87, 9:93
3. 9:67, 3:173, 47:20, 9:86, 9:31, 9:51-5,8:5-6, 2:170
4. 3:160, 9:119, 9:123
5. 9:37, 2:216, 3:142
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@disgusted
just like fundamentalist any religion (christianity) are backward.
Says the closet racist bigot
> @Stephen Muslimsborn with a religion were created muslim are according to muslims,Muhammad the prophet and Allah the god of islam.
-> @disgusted It's a fact that nobody is born witha religion, anybody who claims otherwise hasserious mental health issues.
So ALL muslims are in need of psychiatric therapy then.
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@TheRealNihilist
No answer or do you actually think showing me a bombing done by one person is enough?If that is the case then you are irrational.
Yes, One person in the name of ISLAM! you buffoon!
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@keithprosser
For instance if a educated white westerner was to become a Muslim and take up Islamic fundamentalism would he be "backward"?i'd like to meet such a person because i don't understand the attraction of religion, especially in its fanatical forms.
I didn't ask who you'd like to meet. You are still avoiding the question. In fact you are avoiding most of my questions. You are even avoiding my questions about your own link. WHY do you keep doing this?
Here, have another go>
For instance if a educated white westerner was to become a Muslim and take up Islamic fundamentalism would he be "backward"?
What concerns me is identifying the socio-political forces that seem to be strenthening the hand of the hard-liners and making the prospects of reform within islam retreat.
And these muslim "hardliners" such as Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei, are they backward for following Islam the religion that you call "backward"?
Raza Rumi from your link states clearly “requirements of a changing world have been sidestepped” [ by Islam]. What do you think those requirements are?
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@3RU7AL
Cat Stevens / Yusuf Islam,
I think you will find he has had the good sense to drop the "islam" from if pretentious name.
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@keithprosser
The problem is that you continually bring up a literal interpretation of Muslim scripture as the explanation of what is wrong with islam
And I also bring up the fact that many thousands of muslims follow the literal interpretation. You simply try to ignore this fact. And please stop trying to make your thread all about me.
but you do not fully address why that applies to Islam but not to Judaism or Christianity.
I have started many threads debunking christianity and how it has been interpreted. I don't see what the "literal interpretation of Muslim scripture" has to do with 21st century Christianity and that is why I do not have to address why it doesn't apply, because it is irrelevant.
Maybe you could address the points yourself why Islam and the OT does or does not apply or does or does not has relevance to 21st century Christianity, but I can guarantee it is an argument you would definitely lose, And I will explain why AGAIN to you.
The Old Testament was written by Hebrews for Hebrews. Jews themselves don't, and never have recognised it as their scripture. Christians - those who follow the teaching of The Christ of the New Testament are not instructed by the Christ-god to go out into the world and murder anyone who does believe in him or anyone who isn't Christian as does the god of quran;
THIS is why I often "bring up a literal interpretation of Muslim scripture as the explanation of what is wrong with islam". Because the Quran IS taken LITERALLY by hundreds of thousands of muslim fundamentalists.
The point of the OT quotations is to illustrate that if literal interpretation of scripture explained things then Judaism and Christianity would be just as bad as Islam.
I notice again you are trying to squeeze in the OT scripture as being "as bad" and as some kind of balance to your argument. It is as bad I agree but irrelevant. , And you should stop trying to contextualise it to 21st century Christianity and listen to the man in your own link; Raza Rumi. How many times do I have to tell you? It doesn't work and is irrelevant. I notice you say "could be" & Raza Rumi from your link states clearly “requirements of a changing world have been sidestepped” [ by Islam]. What do you think those requirements are?
And you haven't answered my questions above. AGAIN!
the islamic world a narrow, fundamentalistic attitude to scripture developed centuries ago is still going strong.
So in plain English; of those 1. 5 billion + muslims who do not have the "learning difficulties" and are educated and still have a "fundamentalistic attitude to scripture developed centuries ago" are also backward?
For instance if a educated white westerner was to become a Muslim and take up Islamic fundamentalism would he be "backward"?
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@keithprosser
Are you saying those educated muslims are backward because they follow a "backward religion" of Islam?the islamic world a narrow, fundamentalistic attitude to scripture developed centuries ago is still going strong.
So in plain English; of those 1. 5 billion + muslims who do not have the "learning difficulties" and are educated and still have a "fundamentalistic attitude to scripture developed centuries ago" are also backward?
For instance if I was to become a Muslim and take up Islamic fundamentalism would I be"backward"?
I'm saying western societies are more liberal and progressive now than in the middle ages
Yes I have mentioned that many times now, It seems you only recognise this fact when it suits you. I notice too that Raza Rumi from your link mentions that the “requirements of a changing world have been sidestepped” [ by Islam]. Yet you simply try to ignore this (until now) by continually bringing up the Old Testament as if it - judaism - hasn’t change and its laws and dictates are still practiced to this day in the Jewish and Christian worlds as are those laws and dictates of islam still are practiced and adhered to , to this day. They are not still practiced by jews and Christians, they have moved on, they have not been "sidestepped".. And this is why I keep telling you, that you can throw as many OT verses at me as you like and all day long but they are irrelevant!
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@Yassine
Stephen, you seem to share our beliefs,
Nope
why not convert?
& Nope
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@keithprosser
I think that the title is a bit misleading, because all religions are backward.So i'm saying all religions are backward... you askedDoes it then follow that those adherents to Islam are "backward" and don't know what they are following?i could (should?) have said 'no' at that point, because I don't think adherents of a religion are 'backward', given that is generally taken to mean 'has learning difficulties'! But alas what I wrote was what I meant by a 'backward religion', ie
Generally means "'has learning difficulties'". yes it does. But you trying to take your own statement out of context isn't working so stop being sly and deceitful. Ok you also recognise that of the 1,5 BILLION muslims in the world , not all of them would have learning difficulties.
Are you saying those educated muslims are backward because they follow a "backward religion" of Islam?
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@disgusted
It's not a massive claim,
It is a massive claim. It is just that you don't understand the complexity yourself of what YOU have claimed. And you haven't provided a single piece of evidence to support your claim. Again, this is your outrageous claim:
--> @disgusted https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1714? post #5"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
"YOU PROVE IT"! Simply back it up. Just saying the words; "the theory of evolution" doesn't support what you claim. It is just a title of the proposed theory and nothing else.
it's the theory of evolution.
No, that is the title of the theory , and not you explaining it. And you haven't confirmed where you got the idea either, am I correct in assuming you are talking about Darwin's Theory of Evolution", or is their someone else that only you have heard of?. You keep saying that " it's the theory of evolution", over and over and over and over, so explain to us all with supporting evidence the appearance of humans. It's not a hard ask since you are giving us all the impression that you are somewhat more than familiar with Darwin's ( and Wallace's) THEORY of evolution.. So let's hear it? What are you scared of?
I've told you to get an education.
I have had one. You insist on others providing evidence and proof of claims they make but when called upon to do so yourself , you become abusive and evasive, why is that?
I have told you twice already Darwin and Wallace admit to being at a loss when it comes to the "sudden appearance" of humans. So maybe you can tell us all what both Darwin and Wallace have failed to tell us.
Come on and hurry up about it!
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@3RU7AL
But I have yet to be labeled an Christianophobic racist bigot...Have you met Polytheist-Witch?I'm sure they'd be more than happy to help you check this box off your list.
Well that would be fine as long she/he can actually prove her/his accusation. She/he would first have to define the fkn word and then explain why she believes it applies to me..
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@Mopac
meaningful discussion
So this is meaningful discussion ; you telling me:
"I am telling you what the church teaches, and it is our book to interpret, not yours [..........] As I said, it is our book. It is not for you to interpret. If your interpretation doesn't match with what the church teaches, it is wrong".
# 9 onwards https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1757
Bollocks!
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@Mopac
This attitude is not conducive to meaningful discussion
It is a waste of time and not constructive or conductive when you deny that biblical verses even exist and simply default to your usual mantras.
It isn't "meaningful discussion" either.
# 9 onwards https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1757
I am being very consistent with church teaching has been for thousands of years.
See post #202 above.
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@WyseGui
trying to redefine words to fit your narratives.
Many Christians will do this when they find that they have painted themselves into a corner. In fact they will re- write complete verses from the scriptures to make it fit and support their argument.
Some even go as far as to deny what is actually written in the bible even when their own scriptural evidence is nailed between their eyes, such as this exchange between myself & Mopac; post # 10 here >. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1757
Mopac ; And certainly, Jesus willingly went to the cross, no one took his life, he gave it.Stephen; Don't be so silly. Jesus was in great distress at the thought of dying while trying to pull off this great deception.. He didn't go to the cross "willingly". It is, as you put it, pretty obvious from the scripture that he was ordered to do what he did by his "father" against his will.LOOK>>>> Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, ........but thine, be done.Of all the bibles that are written they are all in agreement those words "NOT MY WILL" are the words spoken by the Christ to his "father".So in typical fashion we are not out of the starting gate and we have you already trying to re write what the bible says and insert something that isn't there.This is deceit and you do your case or your faith, no favours at all.Mopac ; I am telling you what the church teaches, and it is our book to interpret, not yours. Jesus willingly died on the cross. As I said, it is our book. It is not for you to interpret. If your interpretation doesn't match with what the church teaches, it is wrong.
So it can be clearly seen above, when the evidence from their own scripture is nailed between their eyes , they will still deny it.
Post # 10 onwards https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1757
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@disgusted
It's not a massive claim,
It is a massive claim. It is just that you don't understand the complexity yourself of what YOU have claimed. And you haven't provided a single piece of evidence to support your claim. Again, this is your outrageous claim:
--> @disgusted https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1714? post #5"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
"YOU PROVE IT"! Simply back it up. Just saying the words; "the theory of evolution" doesn't support what you claim. It is just a title of the proposed theory and nothing else.
it's the theory of evolution.
No, that is the title of the theory , and not you explaining it. And you haven't confirmed where you got the idea either, am I correct in assuming you are talking about Darwin's Theory of Evolution", or is their someone else that only you have heard of?. You keep saying that " it's the theory of evolution", over and over and over and over, so explain to us all with supporting evidence the appearance of humans. It's not a hard ask since you are giving us all the impression that you are somewhat more than familiar with Darwin's ( and Wallace's) THEORY of evolution.. So let's hear it? What are you scared of?
I've told you to get an education.
I have had one. You insist on others providing evidence and proof of claims they make but when called upon to do so yourself , you become abusive and evasive, why is that?
I have told you twice already Darwin and Wallace admit to being at a loss when it comes to the "sudden appearance" of humans. So maybe you can tell us all what both Darwin and Wallace have failed to tell us.
Come on and hurry up about it!
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@disgusted
. You have made a massive claimIt's not a massive claim, it's the theory of evolution.
It is a massive claim.
You have claimed something that even Darwin and Wallace couldn't explain.
it's the theory of evolution
Yes you keep saying that over and over but that is simply the title of the "theory". Now I want you to explain how this is relevant to the appearance of humans which both Darwin and Wallace says was "sudden". So STOP avoiding the question!! You are quick enough to demand proof and evidence of other people and the claims they make but fail to do so when called upon yourself to offer evidence and proof for your unsubstantiated claims.
you have claimed
--> @disgusted https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1714? post #5 "we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
Now prove it. Or stop insisting other prove their claims you two faced, hypocritical buffoon of double standards.
Now, off you go. Run along, and I expect you back before tea time with some proof positive that - "we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal".
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@disgusted
The theory of Evolution.You obviously don't understand the answer so go and get an education beyond the kindergarten level you currently possess.
I know about the "theory" and that is all it is , a "theory". I want you to explain how it is relevant to the human species. You have made a massive claim and are simply failing to explain yourself and resorting to Ad Hominem and then "running away", why is that?
I am assuming you are referring to Darwin's and Wallace's work On The Origin Of Species By Means of Natural Selection?
If that is the case then I am pleased to inform you that Charles Darwin himself was silent on the point of the origins of humans but is co-discoverer Alfred Wallace was less reluctant to express his views. Wallace (who was pleased to let Darwin take all the publicity) clearly suspected an "intervention of some kind" when he stated that - " some intelligent power has guided or determined the development of man". In fact Darwin admitted to having "some difficulty" in explaining highly sophisticated organs such as the human eye.
And, over 150 years later science has failed to prove Wallace wrong. Anthropologists have failed miserably to produce fossil evidence for the "missing link" between apes and humans / Homo Sapiens. There has also been growing recognition of the complexity of organs such as the human brain.
So you sing and dance and then cry about others "running away" from their claims, and here's you running away at the speed of Usain Bolt from your own claims when challenged to support them..
Your a hypocrite with double standards.
--> @disgusted https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1714? post #5"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
Start by explaining what the theory is and where you got the idea that :
"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"? because by their own admission neither Darwin or Wallace couldn't even explain that brain teaser. Shouting out the same mantra "The theory of Evolution" is only telling me the title of the "theory" and not explaining how,for instance, that this "theory" explains the appearance of humans.
Come on now, lets have less of your double standards and hypocrisy and more evidence to support your outrageous claims.
You have made an extraordinary claim about a complicated "theory" and I have repeatedly made a simply request , so why are you struggling to explain it and standing to support your own claim but instead choosing to "run away".
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@disgusted
Start by explaining what the theory is and where you got the idea that :The theory of Evolution.
I see. No, that is the title of the theory , and not you explaining it. And you didn't say where you got the idea. So I will assume you are referring to Darwin's Theory On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection. I asked you:
And how exactly does this "The theory of Evolution" actually explain how:
"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
Because Darwin doesn't actually explain the appearance of humans, does he? In fact Darwin admitted some difficulty in explaining highly sophisticated organs such as the human eye. And neither does his co discoverer Alfred Wallace. In fact Wallace clearly suspected an "intervention of some kind". Yes, Wallace who was prepared to let Darwin have all the publicity for the "THEORY" of natural selection stated that; " some intelligent power has guided or determined the development of of man". And, over 160 years later science has failed, just like you have, to prove Wallace wrong. Anthropologists have failed miserably to produce fossil evidence for the " missing link" with apes, and there has been a growing recognition of the complexity of organs such as the human brain.
So. Let's have another go shall we.
You have claimed:
@disgusted
"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
So how exactly does this theory explain how "we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
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@disgusted
disgusted to Mopac #128 above "You keep running away from this, is that just cowardice"?
Says the man who keeps "running away" from his own fkn claims.
--> @disgusted https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1714? post #5"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
Start by explaining what the theory is and where you got the idea that :
"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
You have made an extraordinary claim about a complicated "theory" and I have repeatedly made a simply request , so why are you struggling to explain it and instead choosing to "run away".
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@RoderickSpode
No, I most certainly did not state that one has to go back in time to when they were 5 years old.
AMAZING!!!!! So you not only deny what is actually written in the New Testament, you now deny what it is that you yourself have written!
@RoderickSpode wrote at post 5 above:Suppose we now had the ability to travel back in time, and you volunteer to be the first to go. You end up going back to the year you were 5 years old. You even meet your 5 year old self. Now you've got 2 of you, separately, yet still the same person. Awkward enough?
And I replied
"and now you are saying that for us to understand this story that we have to time travel hypothetically back to our infancy as if this goes anywhere to explaining how it was that god was to be able to ask himself to spare himself and question himself as to why he forsaken himself.".
So stop lying!!!.
You're claiming Jesus was schizophrenic and/or delusional because you're assuming he wasn't the Son of God.
No, You really need to take in what it is I have written. I was asking in the OP :
Why would Jesus (god) ask himself why he (god) has forsaken himself (god) by allowing himself (god) to be crucified?
If that's the case, you'd have to prove Jesus isn't the Son of God if you really want any Christian to buy into your claim.
That is a piss poor attempt at a strawman argument.
I have never made the claim that Jesus is the son of god.
It is for christians to prove that the Christ WAS the son of god. I don't have to prove a damn thing. So, get to it!!
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@crossed
richard dawkins talks ill about Christians all the time. a while back he started talking about Muslims. and everyone on the political left was calling him racist and stuff. so richard dawkins when't on fox news bleeching about how he does the same thing with Christians and its ok but when he talks about Muslims he is suddenly a bad guy.
And Professor Dawkins has my deepest sympathy. There are a few diabolical hypocrite bigots lurking here who when challenged on the subject of Islam come out with all apologetic guns blazing with cries of " racist " and "islamophobia" but it is permanent open season on Christians and Christianity as far as they are concerned. Their double standards and hypocrisy knows no bounds.
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@Mopac
As I said, it is our book. It is not for you to interpret. If your interpretation doesn't match with what the church teaches, it is wrong.We wrote the book. It is a part of our Holy Tradition. We know what it means.
And is all you have managed to show is yourself and your faith to be liars. You deny what is written in your book. The Christ clearly states that he was going against his own will, you just do not like it being highlighted and pointed out and questioned. To default continuously to I am "interpreting it wrong" and you are interpreting it right is the weakest of arguments.
The scripture clearly states what the Christ said. You are now desperately trying to put words into the mouth of your god. You should be ashamed of yourself.
it is our book to interpret, not yours. Jesus willingly died on the cross. It was Jesus' will to do the will of the father.
Not according to YOUR book he didn't. LOOK>>>> Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless
NOT MY WILL ......but thine, be done.
PROVE that I am interpreting it incorrectly. For you to simply tell me that I am interpreting the verse incorrectly is simply not evidence or is not proof of your claim; especially when the scripture is as clear as day. I have the scripture as my proof, what do you have? Just a big domineering mouth that admits hot air . "end of story".
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@Mopac
it is our book to interpret, not yours. Jesus willingly died on the cross. It was Jesus' will to do the will of the father.
Not according to YOUR book he didn't. LOOK>>>> Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, ........but thine, be done.
Stop crying and weeping and wailing. It's there for all to see, atheist and theist alike. He didn't not go to the cross "willingly".
Yet, Christ did not sin.
Then this begs another question, doesn't it? Why did Jesus/ god need to be cleansed of his "sins" and what "sins" did he commit?
You have heard of the saying about - holes and digging,haven't you?
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@Mopac
And certainly, Jesus willingly went to the cross, no one took his life, he gave it.
Don't be so silly. Jesus was in great distress at the thought of dying while trying to pull off this great deception.. He didn't go to the cross "willingly". It is, as you put it, pretty obvious from the scripture that he was ordered to do what he did by his "father" against his will.
LOOK>>>> Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, ........but thine, be done.
Of all the bibles that are written they are all in agreement those words "NOT MY WILL" are the words spoken by the Christ to his "father".
So in typical fashion we are not out of the starting gate and we have you already trying to re write what the bible says and insert something that isn't there.This is deceit and you do your case or your faith, no favours at all.
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@RoderickSpode
I did not say one has to travel back specifically in time to when they were an infant.
Yes you did, Here
Suppose we now had the ability to travel back in time, and you volunteer to be the first to go. You end up going back to the year you were 5 yearsold.
Then you went on to claim that God and Christ appear schizophrenic because they weren't initially in absolute agreement about Christ's sacrifice.
No. This is what I actaully said;
"If God & Jesus are one and the same as they [chrsitians] believe, then it shows real signs of schizophrenia at worse and a delusional disorder at least" one jesus' part.
I mention nowhere of god/Jesus being in disagreement or disagreement I suggest if it is as christians believe then Jesus had some kind of delusional disorder.
And nothing you have said so far goes anywhere near explaining this sticky question.
Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
So Jesus hadn't time travelled either. He was still there in the garden and speaking to someone he called his father who didn't answer him, in the garden. This sounds like someone with a delusional disorder. Which coincidentally is exactly what is family believed when they had heard of what he was doing and saying.
Mark 3:21
"When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
It appears to me that you are making things up as you go along.
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@RoderickSpode
It is enough that we are asked to believe in the father, son and ghost i.e. three parts of one god but all god; and now you are saying that for us to understand this story that we have to time travel hypothetically back to our infancy as if this goes anywhere to explaining how it was that god was to be able to ask himself to spare himself and question himself as to why he forsaken himself. This, was not a 5 year old infant child, it was an adult addressing another adult. jesu was said to have been 31 - 32 when he died; that is to say he was a man. And we can safely assume the person he was addressing (his "father") was also a man
Jesus was scared witless and terrified when he was on his knees begging his "father" to spare him the barbaric ordeal of crucifixion that he was to face and endure. And his "father" simply ignored his plea totally, not even a ' there, there my son '. So we have a three part god ignoring other parts of himself. Which then begs the question why did jesus even bother asking to be spared and asking why he had been forsaken when he must have known his pleas and begging were going to fall on deaf ears?
Do you not realise how absolutely ridiculous that actually sounds?
You explanation is nonsense and you must do better.
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If God and Jesus are the same, as many Christians will have us believe, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus (god) beg himself (god) in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself ( god) from having to be crucified?
Matthew 26:39
And further, why would Jesus (god) ask himself why he (god) has forsaken himself (god) by allowing himself (god) to be crucified?
Matthew 27:46
This is truly a awkward subject for many Christians to discuss considering that it gives the impression that if God & Jesus are one and the same as they believe, then it shows real signs of schizophrenia at worse and a delusional disorder at least.
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@Mopac
The Truth is God.
IT didn't' take you too long to defaut to your boring and nauseating mantra. Did it.
I suppose this is the end of the thread now as it will die a death by you repeating the same one line crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over and over and crap over and over and crap over and over
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@disgusted
It's even simple enough for someone like you to understand. 1.5 billion Muslims.
That will be the same 1.5 billion muslims that you made the extremely inflammatory statements about saying that ALL MUSLIMS (1.5billion of them) are "stupid" and who ALL have "mental health issues" along with the muslim god Allah and the prophet muhammad.
Post #114 onwards. You really show what a closet racist bigot you really are don't you.
One has to wonder what or where the line is crossed when attacking a whole religious group for their religious beliefs and direct insults to their god calling their god and prophet and ALL muslims "stupid" with "mental issues" and suggesting they all need straight jackets and should all be sectioned.
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@Mopac
because the word for angel means messenger.
Yes, I know. I mentioned that in my opening OP. Didn't you read my op at all?
Here post #1 this is part of what I wrote
--> @StephenThe word - Angel - means nothing more than messenger. The Greek is - Angelos. Malakh, the Hebrew word for angel, also means messenger, and both words coincidently originate from the Persian word for angel, angaros, meaning a - courier. These are simple facts that the devout Christian will still deny although biblical scholars are in agreement with these translations.
a message does not have to be delivered by a flesh and blood human being. There are many forms a messenger can take (a little bird told me, eh?).
Stop being so childish.
There are many forms a messenger can take (a little bird told me, eh?).
That simply means informant or spy. Like " he's singing like a canary", meaning someone is informing on someone else. FFS grow up!
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@Mopac
Christianity is in fact a mystery religion, and that being the case, hiding and revealing is a very real aspect of it.
With much more hiding than "revealing".
And could I please ask that you be considerate and kind enough not to disrupt and derail someone else's thread with your usual repetitive mantra.. Please take note of the title of the thread. It is about why someone becomes or is, an atheist and not why you believe in your god or why you are religious..
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How Did You Become An Atheist?
I read and studied the New Testament/religion. That said. I believe that all the characters in the NT existed but believe there is another story below the surface that these gospel writers are trying to hide.
For example; I believe there was a resurrection ceremony involving a ritualistic "death". As with the "raising" of Lazarus to a higher level of initiation in the sect of the Nazarenes essenes.
I believe the Christ/anointed was a rightful king come to claim his rightful throne and place as "king of the Jews".
These are the things that caused me to become an atheist, not that I was ever a believer in the first place.
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@Vader
Who else would mass bomb 18 churches? No singular person could do so
I agree wholeheartedly, but the sensitive libtard apologists for Islam will use anything against anyone who appear to be "anti islam. Even when the bleeding obvious ( it was muslims shouting Allahu Akbar before the explosions) is staring them in the eyes.
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