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@keithprosser
I doubt you love this country more than I do,
Do you? England, this Christian country where our Queen, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is Head of the Church Of England, the Church and faith she swore to defend at her coronation, The same country you say "WE" SHOULD PROMOTE ISLAM"!!!!!!!!!! a foreign and barbaric ideology that is stuck in the 7th century and will never be compatible with western civilisation? I see. Yes that is you loving this country more than me, isn't is?
@ keithprosser I think we have no choice but to be very clever in how we promote moderate - or tame! - forms of islam (which do exist) and make extreme forms unattractive.
@ keithprosser What concerns me is that if 'we' don't promote moderate Islam it gives the extremists a free hand
@ keithprosser moderate - or tame! - forms of islam (which do exist)
Yes you keep banging on about this but never have explained what "moderate Islam" actually is despite many, many requests to do so. You haven't told us what "tame islam" is , either.
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@keithprosser
'Tis a pity it only you
I agree. But being labeled an Islamophobic racist bigot who spreads hate, division and fear and likened to the KKK far right, is water off a duck's back to me . Maybe those other members who started those threads simply didn't fancy the same accusations being leveled at them simply for airing their , what you call "anti islam" opinions, who knows why they start a thread and then don't take part in the discussion? At least you managed to last just a page and a half on your own thread, eh keith.
Why Is Islam Backward ? Author keithprosser
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@keithprosser
so do can you worst unhindered by me.
Lay off the orange juice keith it affecting your speech.
I'm not going to be online very much either.
Not surprised. I understand your embarrassment. You started a thread where you wanted to "explore if there are benign forms of Islam, or at least less toxic ones?" and didn't get further than page two, where you failed to comment on your own link and failed to answer any question .
Yes, one deep exploration into Islam, that was.. Don't worry. I won't let your one and only thread ever on why "Islam Is Backward" sink from the top 10. There is much to explore and discuss in that one and only link.
Why is Islam Backward
Oh, And let me remind you. The last four threads concerning Islam where not started by me. No.
There was your own with the pejorative title:
Why Is Islam Backward by keithprosser
207 Killed In Sri Lanka by Muslims by SupaDudz
Cleric in Qatar explains how Muslim men should beat their wife by Stronn
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@Mopac
There is no debate about the existence of God.
You sound like a dictator. Who do you think you are, telling others that there is "no debate about the existence of God"? I debate it all the time. You just insist that a omnipotent, all sing all dancing god exists and insist others take your word for it..
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@n8nrgmi
should trump be considered christian?
Does it matter?
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@n8nrgmi
should trump be considered christian?
Does it matter?
has also said his favorite bible verse is 'an eye for an eye'. jesus condemned both of those mindsets.
Could you put up the verses supporting that?
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@keithprosser
I have never EVER claimed to speak for anyone exceptmyself. if any body else thinks I have made myself spokeman for the board please step forward! I am in no mood to apologise to Stephen for something that is only in his head.
You may not have "claimed" that but I do say that you do speakfor others. Here are some of your more recent.
Post#2
it's the way you come over to everyone on DArt and that iswhy you get accused of being an islamophoe
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1609?
So according to you then I come over that way "to everyone on DArt". So are "we" all to take it then that you have spoken and asked "everyone on DArt"? for their personal opinion of me? Yes or No will do.
I fear that is the impression many members have of youwithout any prompting on my part.Post 131 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1672?page=6
And you have asked the "many members" here what impression I give them and they ALL have the same bias "impression of me" as you do of me, do they? Yes or No will do.
You haven't asked me if Islam comes over as "exotic, alien and unknown", have you? In fact you haven't asked any members here for their opinion on islam or if they believe it is "exotic,alien,and unknown", have you? A Yes or No will do.
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@keithprosser
Muslims are individuals, so in way there are as many forms of Islam as there are Muslims.
Yes. There are 1.5 billion "individual muslims" , who all happen to believe in the same "one and only god" ; Allah, and all just happen to read the same book of instructions, the Quran.
So tell me , what are the religions of these 5.5 billion ""individual muslims" that you speak of?
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@disgusted
juxtaposed.
Never mind trying to use big words you have no understanding of. Just answer the question:
The ToE is my evidence.
No, that is not evidence. It is a theory. Try some real evidence as you demand of others.
start by explaining what the theory is and where you got the idea that :
"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
You have made an extraordinary claim about a complicated "theory" and I have made a simply request, so why are you struggling with it.
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@disgusted
The ToE is my evidence.
No, that is not evidence. It is a theory. Try some real evidence as you demand of others.
start by explaining what the theory is and where you got the idea that :
"we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
You have made an extraordinary claim about a complicated "theory" and I have made a simply request, so why are you struggling with it.
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@disgusted
Read a book. If you don't know what evolution is that's just another reason for me to pity you.
Yes you keep saying that and there is absolutely no need for you to pity me. Just tell me what book you read for you to reach such an outrageous conclusion as to cause you to state:
Do you realise that we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet?
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@Mopac
Stop hijacking my thread about Free Will with your complete BOLLOCKS. It is so fkn rude of you. start your own thread about your ultimate reality FFS!
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@Swagnarok
This once brilliant series hasn't been the same since it veered away from the novels halfway through season six.
Episode 3 of Season 8 with was a complete waste of time especially mine. The screen was far far too dark and there was no reason the battle couldn't have taken place in daylight.
The series has become everything George RR Martin didn't want it to become, where it is now a simple case of good versus bad and the good always won. Just like all the other fantasy formats.
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@disgusted
That drivel goes nowhere near supporting your unsupportable claims, I know you are doing the best you can but it is woefully inadequate. You claim that the ultimate reality is your god but we know that gods are the invention of man, your claim makes no sense and that's one reason you can't support it.
And neither can you support this claim of yours below. Funny how you demand "evidence", "proof" and "citations" from ( Mopac) be never ever support your own wild claims and start crying and throwing your sand out of the pit when challenged to do so. So where's your proof and evidence for your ridiculous claim that you have made, below. HURRY UP!! I haven't got all day.
Do you realise that we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet?
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@disgusted
So that's a no then. You have no evidence for you preposterous claim but demand others provide evidence and citations. LOL Hahahhahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahit's a well documented theory.So it's only a theory. And where is your support for this "theory".Read a book.
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@disgusted
Mr Islam
I can see you are intent on derailing someone else's thread just for the fun of it. There is a pretty decent conversation going on here but you simply want to disrupt it simply because you can. You are so fkn rude and vile arn't you.
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@disgusted
He wants it explained and immediately proves he can't understand the words
So you make a stupid unsupported statement here:
Do you realise that we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet?
And then expect others to come up with the evidence that supports your claim for you. LOL what a complete and utter filthy vile joke, you are.
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@disgusted
it's a well documented theory.
So it's only a theory. And where is your support for this "theory".
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@disgusted
Do you realise that we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet?
Lets see your evidence for that outrageous claim, then. Better still start a thread of your own on the subject. Let's see what it is you really know and understand about the "evolutionary process".
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@disgusted
And the god of Islam is Allah and his plan is Jihad until all religion is for him. It is his Law.You talk as if this Allah character is real. I think you have a problem.
On the contrary you vile, disgusting, filthy, grubby specimen. As much as you want to forget it, I will remind you that it is those people that YOU address as "stupid Muslims", and who YOU say "all have mental issues for having a faith in Allah their god" that believe that he is real.
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@keithprosser
It's my experience that rank-and-file Muslims are no more expert in Islamic theology than the pew-fillers of Christianity.
I couldn't agree more . And it is testament to the advantageous progress of western civilisation that " rank and file " christians are not filling the pews anymore. It indicates they have grown up to think for themselves and the other advantage is that they are educated enough to read for themselves what the preacher has actually been preaching to them and have free will to contradict, question and criticize Christianity. As I have done for well over 40 years. That said, depending on what one reads or listens to , this it does not mean that Christianity is on the decline.
On the other hand, the "rank and file muslims" as you have so ambiguously phrased them, don't seem to have a choice. Listening to their manipulative educated preacher is all they have. I have raised the point many times when I have been fed the BS that - ' to understand Islam one has to know Arabic '. This is another BS get out the apologists often use and they , to my mind, shoot themselves in the foot when I ask in return the do all of the 95-98% of Pakistani muslims read and understand Arabic? So again, it is among other things, lack of education that will hold back Islam from coming forward. Your "rank and file muslims" don't seem to understand that they do have free will to contradict, question and criticize Islam. Or do they, but realise the consequences of denying their preacher and their faith?
That said, the Sri Lanka muslim terrorists believed 'Islam can be the only religion', came from wealthy backgrounds and were highly educated.
When police and soldiers in Sri Lanka set out on the trail of the attackers who killed more than 350 people in a series of bombings on Easter Sunday, they did not expect to find themselves in Dematagoda, one of the wealthiest neighbourhoods in Colombo.
Within 90 minutes of the attack, as hospitals struggled to cope with the huge number of casualties, the security forces were closing in on a three-storey house with a BMW parked outside.
Two brothers lived there with their families: 38-year-old Inshaf Ibrahim, a copper factory owner, and Ilham, 36. Their father, Mohamed Yusuf Ibrahim, one of the most successful business people in the island nation’s Muslim community, made a fortune exporting spices. The two brothers were also involved in the jewellery trade. They were both among the attackers.
If muslim kids in the uk are getting a solid british education and not being indoctrinated in Saudi funded madrasa (as happens in parts of the world) things are far from hopeless! As far as I can tell, Muslim schools in the UK return good results.
That used to be that case at one time from the 60's through to the 80's . Arabs and Pakistani children were taught in English schools. I know , I went to the same school as many of them , mainly Arab. But it is as I keep telling you. Once a muslim community expands then Islam gets a grip of that community, they will and do demand another way of living. Mosques, Shariah law and their own muslim schools/ madrasas that teach only the quran. Or did you miss the "Trojan Horse" scandal ? You may not want to face this but it is true and the indigenous people of those communities suffer terrible because government and the police simply turn a blind eye.
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To that I only know the atheists' answer: The writer of Genesis, not God, gave Adam and Eve free will so they could be disobedient..
That makes no sense at all . The idea of these religious scribes, writing about their god of wrath and war, his laws, his jealous personality and his commandments didn't write - ' and god made adam and eve and gave them free will to do as they pleased including being disobedient and disloyalty to their father and creator '. The idea was to keep the ignorant masses in check, and not let them run amok doing what the hell they liked.
It appears we weren't specifcally miners or farmers in the enuma elish - just general labourers.tablet 6 line 7 I will create Lullû—man8 On whom the toil of the gods will be laid that they may rest.
Well when one considers that " to till the land" this would include digging and when one is mining that would be digging - you can see the point can't you.
It is said that the lower ranking flesh and blood "gods" of Mesopotamia had been mining for all kinds of ore - gold in particular - for hundreds of years and by all accounts had mutinied saying words to the effect that - they were not meant to do this kind of work, and telling the head god to stick it up his arse and get something else to " till the land". And I find this most interesting because I have always questioned why it was that gold and other precious stones Onyx is mentioned so early in the bible. Genesis 2:11 KJV.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Why is it even there at this point? , why even mention it at all? It doesn't fit into the narrative on the face of it.
I mean, what possible use could gold and semiprecious stones be to this brand new, sparkling right out the wrapper pair of humans? One would think that these two brand new people had better things and more important things to consider and think about, wouldn't you? Like where's my next meal coming from? And where am I going to live and how am I going to keep warm at night, now "evolution" has stripped me of all my fkn fur so now I have to go and kill another animal for its coat!??? and that makes absolutely no sense of the evolution theory does it?
Maybe our resident expert in all things Evolutionary can explain that sticky point for us. I do hope he starts a thread on his specialist subject. I can't wait to show the nob what a complete and utter braindead bellend he really is.
Maybe there is more to the Mesopotamian epic than some people realise. Or care to admit?
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Sharia is the law code of islam. It is not considered to be divinely inspired.Jan Michiel Otto distinguishes four senses conveyed by the term sharia in religious, legal and political discourse:[25]
- Divine, abstract sharia: God's plan for mankind and the norms of behavior which should guide the Islamic community. Muslims of different perspectives agree in their respect for the abstract notion of sharia, but they differ in how they understand the practical implications of the term.
- Classical sharia: the body of rules and principles elaborated by Islamic jurists during the first centuries of Islam.
- Historical sharia(s): the body of rules and interpretations developed throughout Islamic history, ranging from personal beliefs to state legislation and varying across an ideological spectrum. Classical sharia has often served as a point of reference for these variants, but they have also reflected the influences of their time and place.
- Contemporary sharia(s): the full spectrum of rules and interpretations that are developed and practiced at present
Yes and all of it Islamic. No matter which colour you attempt to paint. And the god of Islam is Allah and his plan is Jihad until all religion is for him. It is his Law.
Only the first is immutable, but it is also abstract.
That is more of an opinion than it is fact. But hey, It's all Islamic to me.
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Sharia is the law code of islam. It is not considered to be divinely inspired.
So. it is an Islamic code of islamic religious law. Shariah Islamic law courts have sprang up all over Britain in the last 15 + years, but what's your point?
I think you need to refer to your wiki handbook:
"the term sharīʿah refers to God's immutable divine law and is contrasted with fiqh, which refers to its human scholarly interpretations".
See that, "God's immutable law" that would be the ISLAMIC god Allah the god of ALL muslims.
"immutable"
unchanging over time or unable to be . unchangeable.
It is unchangeable, fixed, set, rigid, inflexible, unyielding, unbending, permanent, entrenched, established, well established, unshakeable, irremovable, indelible, ineradicable;
unchanging, unchanged, changeless, unvarying, unvaried, undeviating, static, constant, lasting, abiding, enduring, persistent, perpetual.
It appears that the so called "moderate muslims" have an uphill struggle, don't they? What do you suggest keith?
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@Greyparrot
How do you feel about the fact that it is very unlikely that Trump will intervene despite the fact that Russia and Cuba have a military presence there?
I would like to believe you are right. Given that every time the USA "intervene" they get slammed for it as being the invaders and aggressors. The people in Libya for instance are screaming for the west to help them, again, "where is the international community" where is American and Britain" they are asking. They want the "international community" to stop a war lord using "child soldiers" to fight in the the overthrow. The libtards are asking the same questions, that is until the "international community" actually does do something and then the libtards scream foul!.
I hope The great Donald Trump - the best president Britain never had - will keep is record of being the first president in decades never to start or enter a foreign war. I also hope we don't have to call on The Great Donald and the great people of the USA to come to our rescue anytime soon.
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@keithprosser
ok, i'm not a Christian, but after reviewing the text i can't see any reason given why god created mankind at all.
Yes I have posed this very question on this forum to Christians many times , so you are asking nothing new.
Or indeed any reason for creating anything.
yes, I have posed that one as well on many occasions. Find and asks your own questions, try to be original.
God just does it for his own inscrutable reasons!
I don't know, Is that what you think? But the thread is about "free will" and not why god created anything at all.
If its a version of the longer Babylonian creation myth then mankind was created to serve as labourers in the gods' garden
Nearly right. I think it was in mines.
but Adam doesn't seem to have any work to do until after his fall.
Then you haven't read the story. Specifically states that god created the adam to till the land and before the fall.
Perhaps being idle in a paradise was depicted to emphasise how much disobedience to god can cost.
My favorite song of all time that, ♪, ♩ busy doing nothing, ♪, ♩ but my bonsai trees do keep me too busy at times in my twilight years. I think I should turn to faith and look forward to being totally happy in the hereafter doing absolutely nothing .. at all... for ever.
After all, the story is partly about the importance of obedience to God.
Yes well , it's the "free will" but that interests me, considering it is not even mentioned in the bible or the Babylonian epic.
YHWH of the OT did not want love... He demanded sacrifices and obedience - and got angry if they were not forthcoming.
Which makes it more interesting as to why he would even dream of giving his creation "free will".
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@keithprosser
Let's see... I said islam isn't great and you ask me what is great about it.
I did, I was hoping that after all the fuss you kick up when I post anything that you deem to be anti islamic you would have at least, by now, have found something good to say about it?
Husband Brutally Beats Model Wife As She Refused To Convert To Islam
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@keithprosser
i'm not saying Islam is great - it isn't.
Husband Brutally Beats Model Wife As She Refused To Convert To Islam
So apart from its stances on wife slapping golightly and the lynching and or burning of homosexuals and beheading and stoning of women who have been raped. What is great about it?
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@keithprosser
But what he didn't say was go out into the world and kill anyone who refuses to believe in himHe didn't say not to either.
Silly and pointless shot. But if you are going to rely on, as evidence what people DIDN'T say, then I will remember that for any future conversation. That said, You are correct he didn't tell anyone to not go out into the world and kill anyone who refuses to believe in him. So they must have done it of their own free will. The very point of this thread.
That Adam and Eve had the same power to choose as we have is no more a major issue than that they could walk as we do.. It is a major issue when it is said that we were perfect yet defied our father and in so doing caused death to come to all humans being forever.Why God created people with free will and not as mindless autonomons is a question above my pay grade!
Yes I know. This why I am relying on Christians to explain the origins of "free will" and not an atheist such as yourself.
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@keithprosser
What concerns me is that if 'we' don't promote moderate Islam it gives the extremists a free hand.
Why then do you not start by telling "we" what "moderate Islam is"? I have asked you to explain this on many occasions now, without a single response. The thing is you don't know do you. Those that do know about Islam say there is no such thing. But YOU argue against this without a single piece of evidence to the contrary. They may well wish there to be another "form" instead of the "backward form", but there isn't.. This is the left wing liberals once again trying to playdown the very serious threat that Islam poses to western civilisation. They have invented new words such "moderate muslim" and "islamist", and islamism, and "islamophobia".
Jeannette Bougrab says "there is no such thing as "moderate Islam".
President Erdogan says "there is no such thing as "moderate Islam"
Brigitte Gabriel says "there is no such thing as "moderate Islam"
Ayaan Hirsi Ali says "there is no such thing as "moderate Islam"
This room full of self confessed "moderate muslims" proves that "there is no such thing as moderate Islam".
You are reacting exactly to what Douglas Murray calls 'the secondary problem' instead of recognising and dealing with the primary cause. I asked you above why you think the far right is on the rise in America? You brought far right American into the conversation but have swerved the question. You posted a link that you don't even comment on. I have, twice. I have said make your point about YOUR link and you have chosen not to. You have no fkn ideas is your problem. Is all it seem that you are good for is saying ' what should be ' but never ever suggesting how this can be achieved. Like all left wing liberals. is all you want to do is tell people to shut and stop speaking negative about Islam , but you STILL haven't shown me a positive.
It is down to Muslims to put their own house in order, but creating or exacerbating social tensions can only help the extremists and hinder the moderates.
It may well be the case in part. But not discussing the threat of Islam seriously poses to western civilisation, is definitely going to aid and assist the so called "extremists muslims", isn't it!?
And just as I have always suspected, the likes of YOU, just want the rest of us suck it it up and not complain about whole swathes of our country being swallowed up and or simply given over to Islam. Nearly everywhere I know in Birmingham is now muslim. I believe you are the type to only complain or notice when it affects YOU directly without a thought for those stuck in the towns and cities that have already become Islamified. And this is not to mention the terrorism that comes with it. It is a well established fact that once muslims increase in numbers they start demanding another way of living, And for you or anyone else to deny this when it is happening all over Europe is simple insanity.
Pew research
Europe’sGrowing Muslim Population
Muslims are projected to increase as a share ofEurope’s population – even with no future migration
I doubt you love this country more than I do,
You don't know that. Stop making silly statements you simply cannot support!
but what do you want to happen here in the next 5, 10, 20 years?
That is Irrelevant. How many times do I have to go over old ground with you just because you keep restructuring the same old question.
What are you trying to achieve with your posts?
Why does it have to be ME trying to achieve something?
Stop making YOUR thread about me. You have said you want to explore issues,; here look, this is why you started the thread isn't it?
Given that we can't magic Islam from the planet, what are the prospects for the future? Those are some of the issues I'd like to explore in this thread.
I respond to others with my posts. This is your thread. I respond to what you say. When I make a post about Islam I respond to people who have responded to me. That is how a thread travels,FFS!
I think the Salafists are far more worried that Muslims will adopt more western values than we a should worry about an Islamist take over.
Could be. So what do you think those muslims becoming "westernised" should do about it?
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@keithprosser
I quoted Matthew because while Jesus did say 'turn the other cheek', he said other things too!
He did say many things. But what he didn't say was go out into the world and kill anyone who refuses to believe in him or his disciples or refuses become Christian. Unless you are going to show us all where he does actually say such things.
because while Jesus did say 'turn the other cheek', he said other things too!matthew 10:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
Explain to us all this New Testament verse you have posted?
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Nice ideal, "Tame", strange use of a word in this context, it implies the "form" we have to tolerate is not tame.It's been hard to find a word you don't immediately bristle at!
It is hard simply because there isn't a word to describe what you believe the opposite is to the "backward form of Islam" that you mention. Maybe that is because there is only the "backward form"?
I have a deep and abiding loathing for theocracy.
Which Islam is. Islam is an Ideology of the political and religious words of Allah. Nothing else exist in Islam. Allah is the government and the religion and the law. And muslims make no bones about it. Allah is the be and endall, the last and final word. Your not getting this at all, are you. Islam is "theocratic". If you disagree, then simply show me another type of Islam in practice. You haven't managed to do that so far. You have to ask yourself why?
Religion as a private matter I have only a little animosity for,
What anyone wants to believe and who they wish to worship is their business. I have said, I do at times envy those who have a faith. I just don't like the idea of convert or die, which is the only reason for islamic Jihad.
But history and the example of the Muslim world shows that theocracy leads to cultural and intellectual stagnation and decline.
It does and this was learned relatively quick in Europe. The priests wanted control over not just the bodies of the people but more importantly the control of the minds of people. And this kind of control is being re-enacted and repeated again but not by priests, but by our own western governments.
If I was in the US i'd probably be more concerned with the rise of the 'religious right' than with Islam,
I have asked you before why it is on the rise and what do you believe has caused it. I didn't get a reply then and don't expect one now
but in the UK and worldwide it is clear that the only realistic contender for theocracy is Islamic.
and as you so rightly said , "Islam is here , it is staying, and there is more to come.", but you don't seem to mind this at all which is odd considering above you state; "I have a deep and abiding loathing for theocracy." which is what Islam actually is.
You may or may not be old enough to remember the dark days of the '70s and Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech.
I do. I am in my 60's. But his speech was about race not religion. He spoke of the "black man having the whip hand over the white man". So let us not conflate race and religion, this is a deceitful way to discuss the matter in hand .
But what is the same is the potential for firebrands on both sides to escalate things to the level of a low-intensity civil war.
You have to remember something here, that it was Islam that came here. I didn't bring it here,the indigenous population didn' bring it here. There were no anti Islam "firebrands" at all to my knowledge before it was recognised for what it was. It wasn't even bothered about or even recognised by the indigenous population at all really, I grew up and went to school with arab kids In Wednesbury, and they and their parents were fine to my young mind. No it wasn't until Salman Rushdie wrote a novel, then Islam showed the world what it was all about, and you cannot deny it. That should have been our first warning of what was to come.
What happens is that the extremes co-opt their moderates.. A moderate who isn't 'for' their extremists is considered 'against' them. Moderates become enemies of one side and traitors to the other. Squeezed from both sides, the centre disappears.
Yes and all Islam. That is Islam. They , as far as I am concerned can fight it out between them. It is up to muslims to get their own house in order.
As I said earlier, you will be itching to say how much it's different this time from the race-based issues of decades ago. You bet it is!
Correct and I covered it swiftly above just as you would have done had the boot been on the other foot. And yes, "you bet it is". It is a lot more deadlier than a skinhead youth mob fighting a load of black kids in Erdington High Street or Soho Rd Handsworth, I can tell you.
The problem is how to avoid civil strife without capitulating to the theocrats.
We are already capitulating to Islam. I have mentioned, some government departments are pushing for muslims to be classed as a race, by defining words they are quick to use without definition. And in doing this it will make it a criminal offence to question and criticise Islam or even discuss the subject of islam unless it is to "promote " Islam, which is exactly what you are suggesting below. But what these thickos don't realize it that those that believe that there are "different" muslims, will be putting "all muslims" into the same basket along with the extremists. I keep saying it, Islam just has to clean up its own backyard. It is not our problem, but we have to suffer the consequences and are told not to "look back in anger" and "give peace a fkn chance".
I think we have no choice but to be very clever in how we promote moderate - or tame! - forms of islam (which do exist) and make extreme forms unattractive.
"WE" shouldn't be promoting Islam at all! In any of its "forms" This a civilised Western Christian country!! Our queen is the head of the Christian Church of England! and sore to defend the faith" "WE" have been told by our own leaders that Islam is a religion of peace, And no one is buying that anymore. I believe now instead of calling me racist or an "islamophobe" you will use the term - 'nationalist' as if it is wrong to love my country and my queen. This is the new word left wing libtards are using no because the other two terms have been debunked and become water of a duck's back- to me at least
I'm not a political scientist (obviously!) and I haven't pre-prepared a spiel so this post is very much a ramble, not a thought out manifesto.
I see.
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@keithprosser
matthew 10:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[
You have done this before haven't you prosser? Just throwing a verse out without a comment or a explanation as to why you believe it to be relevant.
You are good at this aren't you prosser and believe that you are being so fkn clever, YOUR NOT, you are making yourself look "backward" . The ploy, your oft used ploy, is to post things for others to explain to you because you don't know or understand what is actually being spoken.
And end up making yourself look absolutely ridiculous. As you did a few times with Luke 19:27 by quoting single part of a 17 part story. You thought you were being clever then didn't you? Until it was pointed out to you - by me - that this was only a part of a complete a parable spoken by the christ and concerned god's judgment that starts at verse 11 and finishes at 27, the only part you posted.
I can see where you get your sly and devious attempts to discredit the the words spoken by the Christ. Our world leaders do similar when attempting to convince people in the West that Islam is a religion of peace. Yes, they ALL only ever repeat the same and one single verse from the whole of the quran>
Here it is, go make yourself feel real good about islam keith.
5:32 "whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind".
OOOOOOah, that really does sound fluffy doesn't it keith? But if you wish to keep that feel good feeling do not read the very next verse. That will be the verse our world leaders always seem to forget to mention.
Quran 5:33 – unless, those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption/mischief is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cutoff from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for thema disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.
So are you not going to explain to us all this New Testament verse you have posted? Or are you simply stirring the pot.
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@disgusted
Read a book you nonce.
How fkn DARE! you use such a filthy derogatory term against me. I have had warnings for calling people "clowns" and suggesting that they are "stupid" ! BUT YOU can get away with derogatory vile comments such as the above. You really are a disgraceful vile human being who has no place on a open forum.
Used by prison staff, to explain the segregation of inmates who were convicted of sex crimes towards children and the other inmates
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@disgusted
Do you realise that we have ?Lets see your evidence for that outrageous claim, then. Better still start a thread of your own on the subject. Let's see what it is you really know and understand about the "evolutionary process".Read a book you nonce.
Just as I knew, you don't know a damn thing that about , well , anything do you. Start a thread on why it is you believe that mankind
"evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet".
Or are just trolling a thread for your own entertainment.
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@disgusted
Do you realise that we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet?
Lets see your evidence for that outrageous claim, then. Better still start a thread of your own on the subject. Let's see what it is you really know and understand about the "evolutionary process".
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Muslims are all murderers because the book tells them to be,
I didn't say that, you did, You also say in your hate filled speech of a rant that " ALL muslims have mental issues and are stupid" because they believe in their god Allah and their prophet muhammad" and called Islam "stupid" I didn't say any of that either you did. You may find this interesting , I know I did yesterday.http://www.report-it.org.uk/your_police_force
even though their book tells them to be.
No it doesn't . It says turn the other cheek. You silly little man.
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@keithprosser
I have never EVER claimed to speak for anyone except myself.
But you do and have. Do you want me to put them up or have you just tried to cover your arse with:
However, I reckon i am a typical, average sort of person so I assume the impression you make on me is the impression most people would get.
So now your saying all members are all like you. Stop FFS just stop it!!
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@keithprosser
I was going to title it 'is wahhabism backward' or 'is salafism backward' but the linked article used 'Islam' in its title so in the end I did too.
Raza Rumi has actually titled his piece:
The Prospects For Reform in Islam.
He says; in bold:
“Muslims do in fact have a substantial body of both historical as well as contemporary thinking that they can draw upon to help improve their political and social structures and create more just, inclusive societies”.
But Rumi - underlined - fails to tell us why it is that they do not "draw upon" this historical & contemporary literature & knowledge? . Could it be that the so called “islamists’ are following the Quran to the letter and simply refuse to “draw upon” anything that appears to contradict the Islamic book and Hadith? Or Simply because they believe, as he says “the view propagated by Islamists of all varieties is that Sharia law is “divinely ordained” ?
He goes on to say islam/Shariah" cannot be questioned. Sharia, therefore, must be understood literally, and Islamists are driven by their belief that the Sharia represents a comprehensive political and belief system".
If this is the case, then this does go someway to supporting what I have said above. Islam will not and cannot reform because it is believed to be the last and final word of Allah,
It is quite difficult to take quotes from this piece and comment on them . It leaves far to much room for misunderstanding. The best way to give your link the critique it deserves is for you to C&P the whom text and for you to interject your comments, opinions and thoughts as and when, on what seem an interesting piece.
I can then comment on what you have picked out to comment on. it is your link and your thread after all. This shouldn't leave too much room for accusations of taking Rumi "out of context".
Of course, this would all depend on how serious you are about "exploring" this "backward religion".
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@disgusted
Just like you and the other christians don't follow the direct instructions from the god invented in your holy book.
I don't think anyone is arguing that point here, you buffoon. I was christened but I have no intention of "turning the other cheek" as the Christ instructs. I am not a practicing Christian in any sense of the word as are many in my situation.
And the same goes with muslims, they don't a ALL go out and rape , maim, murder and enslave just because because their god and prophet instructs them to do so to make the whole world islamic. How many times do I have to tell you that. Away now, your stinking piss soaked sandpit awaits .
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@disgusted
Oh look you just worked out why [ SOME] Muslims ignore the obscene passages in the Quran.
But then they are not following the direct instructions of their god and prophet are they you buffoon?
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@keithprosser
Well I think you tried to derail it with making a mountain out what 'backward' meant when what is hardly central.
Well you are are wrong. It was a genuine question that to my mind would follow the accusation of "Islam being backward" because over a billion of people follow Islam. . And you still haven't answered the question, your dodging it. Why?
It seems we have some common ground - neither of want to see the west dominated by theocratic Islam!
Given what I know about Islam and many of those who follow it, I wouldn't allow it here at all. But I am not stupid enough to say it can be banned. You on the other hand are sitting on the fence and refusing to answer questions . I asked you, do you believe islam, the religion you have said is "backward" belongs in the West? You have ignored that question and others besides, yet you want dialogue. It is hardly a case of "exploring " if you dodge and clam up and ignore when anyone poses you a question concerning your own fkn statements, is it?
Where we differ - correct me if i am wrong - is that you want to see no Islam in the west and whatever they like in Arabia.
You are correct, but I understand that it is an impossibility, it is, as you have made extremely clear, "here and isn't going anywhere with more to come". I also know I have to tolerate the situation, but you want me to accept it . Just as I know and understand that Islam cannot be reformed or changed and this is dangerous and makes it incompatible with the West.
My ideal is close to a 'tame' form of Islam everywhere,
Nice ideal, "Tame", strange use of a word in this context, it implies the "form" we have to tolerate is not tame.
as I see no prospect of eradicating religion in the foreseeable future.
No, I don't believe religion can be "eradicated " as the Romans discovered.
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@keithprosser
The christianophobie is another thread, you have posted on the wrong thread.I point out that in #130 (above)you specifically called me out for double standards and hypocrisy.I believe one is supposed to respond to a call out, so I did. This was the right thread.
I also specifically called you out on this thread Am I A Christianophobe? https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1609? for hypocrisy and double standards, some time ago, but you skipped past the issue.That is what the whole thread is about. Your hypocrisy and your double standards "specifically". But you ignored it.
You also take it upon yourself to speak on behalf of the whole forum on that thread too.
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@keithprosser
I think that the title is a bit misleading, because all religions are backward.So i'm saying all religions are backward... you askedDoes it then follow that those adherents to Islam are "backward" and don't know what they are following?i could (should?) have said 'no' at that point, because I don't think adherents of a religion are 'backward', given that is generally taken to mean 'has learning difficulties'! But alas what I wrote was what I meant by a 'backward religion', ie
Generally means "'has learning difficulties'". yes it does. But you trying to take your own statement out of context isn't working so stop being sly and deceitful. Ok you also recognise that of the 1,5 BILLION muslims in the world , not all of them would have learning difficulties.
Are you saying those educated muslims are backward because they follow a "backward religion" of Islam?
I think all religions are backward if that they are based on the silly notion of gods and divine revelations.
Yes you keep saying this as if it waters down what you have wrote. But you have specifically started a thread where you have called and singled out "ISLAM" as "a backward religion".
However, it is hardly a secret that there are features of Islam which are (or appear) outdated - even barbaric - when viewed from the perspective of a 21st century westerner.
So you can refer to "parts" of islam as being "barbaric " but for some fkn extremely odd reason you stamp your feet in protest when I use the word. Double standards..
when viewed from the perspective of a 21st century westerner.
And what about from the 21st century perspective of say an Afghani imam of the Taliban ?
Islam is backward.
Does Islam belong in the west seeing that you consider Islam to" backward"?
I don't think a society in which religion plays a major role can ever be as good as a secular democracy.
So this "backward religion Islam" does not belong in the West, then?
Are there benign forms of Islam, or at least less toxic ones?I think the answer is yes.
But all are Isalm. Ok what are the other ones? describe a "non toxic" one.
Given that we can't magic Islam from the planet, what are the prospects for the future?
No we can't magic it away, but Islam, in my opinion, is more than welcome to the part of the planet that it originated. I don't believe it belongs in or is compatible with, the West & western society or civilisation. I honestly believe we are heading not for a clash of cultures but a clash of civilisations.
Those are some of the issues I'd like to explore in this thread.
So let's explore some of what you have raised and that I have responded to. And let's also hope your thread doesn't get hijacked and derailed simply for the sake of it.
Over to you?
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@keithprosser
I like 'apart from'.....
Well I say "apart from" simply because these commandments are not exclusive to Christians , or didn't you understand that. No ,these laws/ commandments are mainly common sense, moralistic ethics even to atheist. And they have served mankind - including atheists pretty well over the centuries. Or didn't you understand that either? what's your point?
And you have ignored the other part again. never mind, eh.
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@keithprosser
That Adam and Eve had free will is not explicit in the text for the same reason its not stated explicitly that they hard arms and legs.
Wrong. It can be taken for granted that Adam and Eve had arms and legs as they were humans created "male and female" which usually come with arms and legs, they were perfect in the eyes of their creator and made in the image of their creator. So stop being so fkn silly!
That Adam and Eve had the same power to choose as we have is no more a major issue than that they could walk as we do.
Your being silly again and for the sake of it. You really are desperate to got one over on me aren't you? LOL. It is a major issue when it is said that we were perfect yet defied our father and in so doing caused death to come to all humans being forever.
Adam and Eve are not presented to as perfect super beings but as ordinary people like you and I.
Well I don't know what you make of the words;
" God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them" but that sounds pretty good and perfect to me, you little atheist, you. So Christians have a bit more explaining to do, don't they? Or is that too "christianophobic" for you?
God placed them in a pardise with but one instruction - don't eat the forbidden fruit.
As a self confessed an atheist you do have a lot to say on the matter don't you? Oh, I forgot you only default to that line mode when on the backfoot and the subject is Islam. anyway yes he did place them in a garden and gave them one instruction and they defied him and it. What's your point?
Anyone who has a sense of narrative knows what must happen after that set-up!
Of course they do, it is not hidden either is it? It is do or die and they chose death and sentenced the rest of mankind to death along with them because , according to christians this perfect couple had "free will". I am sure "anyone with a sense of narrative" is beginning to see how ridiculous the excuse of them " having free will" is now beginning to sound.
All Steve's questions are answered by the simple fact that Adam and Eve behave like real people do - and like real people they screw it up.
I don't think the devout Christian will accept that narrative keith. but who knows.
"Real people", atheist? Oh and the thread is concerned with the origins >>>>>>> "free will" <<<<<<<. Indeed they did behaved like "real people" after the so called fall.
AND "Anyone who has a sense of narrative knows" is was a complete "screw up" of the whole "narrative" by the biblical scribes.
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@keithprosser
Some examples are familiar to most people, such asnumbers 15:32-36 (stoning for breaking sabbath) - out.Lev 20:13 (stoning for gay sex) - in (or possibly out)I have no idea how many more there are. 'loads' probably.
That's the ignoring part of my question answered now how about that other part. You obviously didn't take the question that I asked someone else as a whole did you. No surprises there though.
They (Christians) have every right to ignore the OT. You said yourself above - " Christians don't have to follow Mosaic law is that Paul had that requirement dropped to make it easier to get gentiles to convert. and they ignore it regardless of what Paul says too.
So apart from the obvious Ten Commandments that even atheists agree with in part, where are the " hang their hat on it" examples?
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@keithprosser
.
I can't be bothered to engage with your 'anti-christian' stuff.
Then don't!!! And that is like saying I am anti Muslim. which I am neither. It is the scriptures , the New Testament in particular that I have a problem with as I have explained to you many times. You too have a problem with christianity but simply from an atheists point of view. What anyone chooses to believe is entirely their affair . I have said a few times that I almost admire the christians with a faith and I wish I could believe as they do. But the irony is that it is The New Testament that actually stops me having faith. So stop with your " anti christian " BS. I have nothing against christians because they have a faith.
The difference between anti-Christian posting and anti-Islamic posting is the current state of affairs in the world.
Which is what exactly?
in my view, people here on DA know enough about Christianity to know what to make of your powder-puff attacks on it because they've grown up steeped in 'Christian culture'.
Yes, in your view ( and you speaking again for the whole forum). But although, as you say, "they've grown up steeped in 'Christian culture" they don't seem to be able to handle questions on or criticism of what they have grown up "steeped in". I don't mock them for their beliefs or I haven't done so intentionally. I have mocked and criticised and questioned the scriptures for it's lies and half stories, its ambiguous statements and for the fact that I believe that there is another story below the surface that the writers - or the editors - of these scriptures are trying to hide.
.
I too have grown up in a christian country with a christian culture and a few of my family are what is called "devout". They too get annoyed - with themselves - when they cannot answer simply questions about the "christian culture" they have steeped themselves in.
People fear what is unknown and hate what they fear.
Part true and they may also have good reason to "hate what they fear", would you agree?
To us Islam is exotic, alien and unknown.
Your such a pompous nob aren't you? You should stick to speaking for yourself and stop underestimating people. It is neither of those things to me and many others. And hasn't been since 9/11 where people wanted to know why ISLAM was attacking them.
There is nothing "exotic" about an ideology that encourages and demands murder, rape and slavery.
There isn't nothing alien about islam either, it has made its intentions extremely clear on many occasions. and although it was rarely given a thought,about before 9/11 , it certainly is not "unknown".
You don't post to enlighten members about Islam; you post to ratchet up fear and hate.
That is an opinion. And you have absolutely no evidence for that. Your annoyed simply because you have nothing to give in response to facts presented. Your like the Christian who is annoyed with themselves because they cannot answer the simplest of questions on their own faith. I haven't called muslims or islam, or allah or the prophet muhammad "stupid" I haven't made inflammatory statements saying " all muslims have mental issues". funny how you have ignored those hate posts above.
ratchet up fear
Oh stop it! you have no evidence for that BS and you know it. I say no more that what the quran says. I say no more that what islamic scholars, imams and teachers have said. I have posted nothing more than what is in the headlines. You just want anything "anti islam" hushed up and swept under the carpet. You don't want to talk about it.<<<< and that is part of the fkn problem. You started a thread you calling islam "a backward religion and let someone else do your explaining in a link and then refuse to answer questions on your ow thread and subject. Why? I have responded to some part of your link but I haven't finished reading all of that link yet. but I will respond to it all. Yet YOU can't even get past the first question raised about your own OP.. Tell me are the government creating fear when they tell us to, "run, hide and tell in the wake of a muslim terrorist attack"?
Be assured when you post in a way I feel ratchets up hatred and fear of Christians I'll call you a Christianophobe.
Oh go away, you silly man.
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@keithprosser
The christianophobie is another thread, you have posted on the wrong thread. But I will indulge you and re post my repost my response on the correct Christanohobe thread.
I can't be bothered to engage with your 'anti-christian' stuff.
Then don't!!! And that is like saying I am anti Muslim. which I am neither. It is the scriptures , the New Testament in particular that I have a problem with as I have explained to you many times. You too have a problem with christianity but simply from an atheists point of view. What anyone chooses to believe is entirely their affair . I have said a few times that I almost admire the christians with a faith and I wish I could believe as they do. But the irony is that it is The New Testament that actually stops me having faith. So stop with your " anti christian " BS. I have nothing against christians because they have a faith.
The difference between anti-Christian posting and anti-Islamic posting is the current state of affairs in the world.
Which is what exactly?
in my view, people here on DA know enough about Christianity to know what to make of your powder-puff attacks on it because they've grown up steeped in 'Christian culture'.
Yes, in your view ( and you speaking again for the whole forum). But although, as you say, "they've grown up steeped in 'Christian culture" they don't seem to be able to handle questions on or criticism of what they have grown up "steeped in". I don't mock them for their beliefs or I haven't done so intentionally. I have mocked and criticised and questioned the scriptures for it's lies and half stories, its ambiguous statements and for the fact that I believe that there is another story below the surface that the writers - or the editors - of these scriptures are trying to hide.
.
I too have grown up in a christian country with a christian culture and a few of my family are what is called "devout". They too get annoyed - with themselves - when they cannot answer simply questions about the "christian culture" they have steeped themselves in.
People fear what is unknown and hate what they fear.
Part true and they may also have good reason to "hate what they fear", would you agree?
To us Islam is exotic, alien and unknown.
Your such a pompous nob aren't you? You should stick to speaking for yourself and stop underestimating people. It is neither of those things to me and many others. And hasn't been since 9/11 where people wanted to know why ISLAM was attacking them.
There is nothing "exotic" about an ideology that encourages and demands murder, rape and slavery.
There isn't nothing alien about islam either, it has made its intentions extremely clear on many occasions. and although it was rarely given a though,about before 9/11 , it certainly is not "unknown".
You don't post to enlighten members about Islam; you post to ratchet up fear and hate.
That is an opinion. And you have absolutely no evidence for that. Your annoyed simply because you have nothing to give in response to facts presented. Your like the Christian who is annoyed with themselves because they cannot answer the simplest of question on their own faith. I haven't called muslims or islam, or allah or the prophet muhammad "stupid" I haven't made inflammatory statements saying " all muslims have mental issues". funny how you have ignored those hate posts above.
ratchet up fear
Oh stop it! you have no evidence for that BS and you know it. I say no more that what the quran says. I say no more that what islamic scholars, imams and teachers have said. I have posted nothing more than what is in the headlines. You just want anything "anti islam" hushed up and swept under the carpet. You don't want to talk about it.<<<< and that is part of the fkn problem. You started a thready calling islam "a backward religion and let someone else do your explaining in a link and then refuse to answer questions on your own thread and subject. Why? I have responded to some part of your link but I haven't finished reading all of that link yet, but I will respond to it all. Yet YOU can't even get past the first question raised about your own OP.. Tell me are the government creating fear when they tell us to, "run, hide and tell in the wake of a muslim terrorist attack"?
Be assured when you post in a way I feel ratchets up hatred and fear of Christians I'll call you a Christianophobe.
Oh go away, you silly man.
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@disgusted
Christians ignore the OT when it suits them and hang their hat on it when it suits them.
Any examples? I thought not.
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