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The Church teaches that free will is an aspect of us being created in God's image.
The church also teaches a lot of things that are simply not true. But what does the bible actually say about "free will"? What does god say about "free will"? Is it "free will" if it comes with a penalty of death? Why didn't god warn his perfectly created beings - who he actually says were good - that they would be tempted by a "beguiling" being? If they were created in the "image of god" then how is it that they "fell" immediately to the so called "serpent"? Why did they choose to defy their father/god over a stranger?
What is meant by free will is not that we can from our own will jump to the moon and back,
Yes I think I am old enough to have worked that out. We are talking defiance in the face of death that Christians call "free will".
it is that we have the ability to choose whether or not we move away from God and reject Him in our intent, or abide in God.
That is nothing more than a belief without evidence and no more than an opinion without evidence. Where in the biblical scripture of the creation story does it mention ' and god gave them "free will"? What you say above makes absolutely no sense, unless you can answer all the questions above. There is nothing at all in the scripture resembling anything you have said or should I say - what you and the church have made up.
So it would probably be better described as freedom of choice.
Well that would be nearer the truth wouldn't it. Because the choice was - do as I command or die - and very much the opposite to " free will". And this would be more in keeping with the Old Testament God of war and violence and especially a god of "jealousy" and nothing like the Christian teaching that says our transgressions are forgiven.
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I was going to title it 'is wahhabism backward' or 'is salafism backward' but the linked article used 'Islam' in its title so in the end I did too.
Oh, that's ok then, As long as it wasn't me, of course. At least the author recognises it as all being Islam. unlike you who talks of "forms" of islam and then never explains these "forms" to somehow waterdown the violence in the quran.
I think that the title is a bit misleading, because all religions are backward.Does it then follow that those adherents to Islam are "backward" and don't know what they are following?I think all religions are backward if that they are based on the silly notion of gods and divine revelations.
I didn't ask you what you think about all religions though, did I? What's the matter with you? you are stuttering and stumbling and answering questions that i didn't ask, AGAIN!
I have asked you, does it then follow that those adherents to Islam are "backward" also and don't know or understand what they are following? Its a simple question that has sprang from your own statement. have you forgot what it is you wrote, keith? here is your statement again again:
I think that the title is a bit misleading, because all religions are backward.
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@disgusted
You find profound questions disgusting and hypocritical.
Not at all . I do though, find YOU disgusting and hypocritical.
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@Alec
In your first post out of my samples, you were posting hate mail towards right wingers.In your second post, you were posting hate mail at a user.In your third post, you were posting hate mail towards religious people.
All good examples of this nine faced hypocrites inflammatory hate speech behaviour, which hasn't gone unnoticed, I can assure you Alec.
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@keithprosser
That's true. If you tell me what it refer to and how factor it in I will try 'taking into consideration'.
More questions but never an answer. I would just love to believe there are many members here watching you dodge and twist and evade questions concerning your own statements and links.
Let's go back to my original question after you OP
I think that the title is a bit misleading, because all religions are backward.
Does it then follow that those adherents to Islam are "backward" and don't know what they are following?
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@disgusted
Have you not heard of YHWH the god of christians?
Are you going to continue in this vein of disrupting someone else's thread. This is supposed to be a thread about Islam and why it is " backward" according to the OP. Or are you just going to troll it without a single piece of substance. I don't mind , it is not my thread so fill your boots and troll away, you don't need my permission. But it is extremely rude and unnecessary when someone is trying their damned to have a discussion on "why Islam is backward", or did you not read the title of the thread? Of course you didn't.
If I would have started a thread with such a title both you AND prosser would be on me like flies to shite calling me a "racist bigot" and of being "islamophobic".
But if you wish to keep interrupting someone else's serious thread for the sake of it, then tell me, you hate preaching hypocrite: is keithprosser not a "islamophobe" for even suggesting "Islam is backward"? In your own time my son.
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@keithprosser
Makes me wonder why Christians keep the dam OT around if they're just going to ignore it!
Me too. But I think it just may have something to do with a glimpse into ancient history. who nows, who fkn cares? At least you recognised it is actually "ignored" by christians and I would like you to remember you said that. NOTE TO KEITHPROSSER "Christians IGNORE the Old Testament!!!!". Now you know not to bring it up when discussing the barbaric ideolgy of Islam.
The reason Christians don't have to follow Mosaic law is that Paul had that requirement dropped to make it easier to get gentiles to convert.
So why then, if you know that St Paul "had that requirement dropped", do you continuously bring it up and conflate it with , 21st century Christianity as some kind of defence for Islam?
I have been assuming you were atheist or agnostic - are you a Christian?
I have told you my stance as far as gods and religion are concerned, you should know it very well by know, unless of course, you have chosen to purposely ignore it.
What I am or what my stance is has absolutely nothing to do with this thread or YOU come to that. I have made my opinions of the NT and the Christian teachings very clear many times.
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@keithprosser
because one has moved on and the other has no intention of moving on.A religion is an abstract - how can a religion have an 'intention'?
And now your just being a nob. You know exactly what I mean when I say islam hasn't moved on. So I will spell it out MUSLIMS will not reform islam or allow it to move on as per. “requirements of a changing world ”. and another reason muslims won't allow this is muslims because it is the last religion and the final word of allah.
Did Christianity intend to reform and move on? What are Christianity's intentions for the future?
So we're back to Christians and what they did or didn't do. You simply are not taking into consideration the C_I_V_I_L_I_S_A_T_I_O_N of peoples are you?
The reason Islam 'has no intention of moving on' is that at this point in history there are many people who don't want it to move on,who don't want it to move on,
Yes I know, There are many aren't there? And they are Muslims aren't they? And the reason they don't want ISLAM to move on is because the many muslims you mention believe that the quran is that last and altimate unalterable word of Allah.
and even want it to turn further back.
Yes I know that to. I keep telling you that but you put that down to the wishes of the minority muslims,. When in truth it is "many". So tell me something I don't know instead of avoiding my questions,
Who knows.....I predict that in 200 years the US will be a Evangelical,
Irrelevant to today though is it.. Stop being silly, you're showing signs of being on the back foot already and we are only on page one. .
Religions both shape and are shaped by history.
If allowed to, yes and the wish or need and will is there. Which it isn't according to "many muslims" and the Sultan of Brunei, is it?
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@keithprosser
From your link.
“Islamism’s menace to Muslims, however, has been compounded by the weakened state of critical thinking within Islamic religious and political traditions”.https://www.hudson.org/research/11172-the-prospects-for-reform-in-islam
Do you see that, prosser? “critical thinking”he says. That would mean the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgement. Yes “critical thinking” ,which is stifled by left wing apologists such as yourself who won’t have word said against Islam.
I notice too that he mentions that the “requirements of a changing world have been sidestepped”. Yet you simply try to ignore this by continually bringing up the Old Testament as if it hasn’t change and its laws and dictates are still practiced to this day in the Jewish and Christian worlds as are those laws and dictates of islam still are practiced and adhered to. They are not still practiced by jews and Christians, they have moved on. And this is why I keep telling you, that you can throw as many OT verses at me as you like and all day long but they are irrelevant! You do this as if it somehow gives ‘balances‘ to the violence proscribed in the Quran, it doesn’t because one has moved on and the other has no intention of moving on.
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where in the bible does the Christ god of Christians order the stoning of anyone?Where does he forbid stoning for anything bar adulterous women?
That is what I asked you. So You are going to answer questions with questions of your own. Pathetic.
I'd like to think Jesus was against, say, stoning blasphemers, but it's not explicit in the text he was.
So you're going to imagine it is there but cannot find it. I see. Well let me tell,you won't find it there. So let's move on.
if scholar A says the verse applies to adulteresses only
scholarA would have to offer evidence for his conclusion, something you are simply incapable of doing.
and scholar B says its appliesfor all previously stonable offences who is right?
scholar A would require from scholar B evidence for his conclusion,something you are simply incapable of doing.
Like I Require evidence from you but you have come up empty handed so far and offered only a hypothetical.
It is not in the scripture that Christians read. And that is your only answer. so stop scraping the hypothetical barrel. It is empty. So let's move on.... to your link.
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@disgusted
Why is everything you post irrelevant?
Opinion.
Why aren't you banned you disgusting and vile hypocrite? Can you not, just for once - show a bit of respect for someone else's thread.
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@keithprosser
one reason that the enlightenment succeded in Europe but not in Muslim lands was printing - or rather the lack of it in the latter.
That and education. Didn't muslims destroy any printing presses that came into their lands? And didn't they exile or execute all their learned arab men, such as philosophers, mathematicians and astronomers alchemists and scientist and slaughter those they came across in exile in Europe?
Tell me; what does the Christ of the New Testament say about stoning?John 8:7"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her"Now does that apply to all stoning cases or just adultery?
Now is all you have to do to answer that question is show us all and yourself, where in the bible does the Christ god of Christians order the stoning of anyone?
Does it apply only for a first offence (she is told to 'sin no more')?.
Irrelevant. But it is obvious you don't know. and there is absolutely no mention in the New Testament.
It can mean any of those and no doubt more besides.
Where's your evidence? let us see it.
There is no 'correct' interpretation of scripture;
Which scripture are you talking about.
not comparative religion.
You brought in the comparison, by making statements such as " Western societies are more liberal and progressive now than in the middle ages but that's not because we have different scriptures" etc etc. What did you expect, people just to accept what you say without question?
I think that the title is a bit misleading, because all religions are backward.
Does it then follow that those adherents to Islam are "backward" and don't know what they are following?
Tell me, prosser, in your own words; Why do these "islamists" claim that they represent Islam in its most pure, truest form. What makes them believe they do? Where do they get the idea that they are the true representatives of Islam?
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@coal
They have no intention of changing or reforming Islam. And those who believe that there is anything such as "moderate islam" really need to study Islamic culture a lot closer.Any country that beheads a 16 year old boy and a 19 year old boy for exchanging WhatsApp messages discussing a pro-democracy protest is a country that needs to be purged from this earth.
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@keithprosser
it's terrible how standards have slipped in 3000 years.
It is amazing how Islam for instance shows that it has no intention of letting it's "standards slip". The muslim Sultan of Brunei for instance has just recently REAFFIRMED his stance on muslim sharia law which he proudly announces his allegiance to Allah with the death sentence of stoning for blasphemy. And calls for "stronger Islam". https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/04/brunei-enacts-sharia-law-sultan-calls-stronger-islam-190403060932396.html What ever does "stronger Islam " mean?
Lev
That would be the ancient Old Testament that even Jews have never recognised and that doesn't have much to do with Christianity (if anything)since there was a new covenant ie (it moved with the times) when The Christ came along.
I don't think Jesus cancelled that one!
That is interesting. And can you support that claim with say, a verse spoken by the Christ cancelling blasphemy? Or better still, could you point out a verse for us where it has the Christ ordering the stoning of anyone for blasphemy?
There is no scriptural reason why you shouldn't be put to death I know of.
There is nothing saying I should , could or would be stoned coming from the mouth Christ god in the New Testament either.
You're still trying - and failing - to conflate 7th century Islam with today's 21st century Christianity by using ancient Hebrew scriptures, How many times must I tell you; Its doesn't work!
Just to remind you prosser, the thread is called _ Free Will & The Christian - Get Out. Christians for instance, once they have painted themselves into a corner ( as you often do when defending Islam) with outrageous statements as to why god allowed sin in the first place, come up with the default argument of "free will".
It is also odd that Christians forget the threat of death from the biblical Old Testament god which, in my mind rules out "free will" immediately. It is also odd that Christians do not even entertain the question as to why when this perfect couple are given the stern warning of the penalty for defiance that the same god didn't bother to tell this couple that a servant of his will be along soon to try to tempt them?
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@keithprosser
I think that the title is a bit misleading, because all religions are backward.
Does it then follow that those adherents to Islam are "backward" and don't know what they are following?
Western societies are more liberal and progressive now than in the middle ages but that's not because we have different scriptures - the injunction to stone anyone working on the sabbath is still in our holy book - but it's because we have found ways to get around the awkward bits.
But that is not true is it. The teaching in the Christian New Testament for instance is entirely different. Tell me; what does the Christ of the New Testament say about stoning?
Except of course when it serves our purpose not to ignore it, such as when we want to burn witches or condemn homosexuals - then the validity of the old scriptures is re-invoked!
Lets see, The last person to be executed for witchcraft was way back in 1684, when Alice Molland was hanged in Exeter. I think it was even earlier in Scotland. The last person to be executed for sodomy was way back 1835 that two men called James Pratt and John Smith at Newgate Prison. What is your point? And I believe Islam is still today waging a war against witchcraft among other things and stoning, hanging and burning homsexuals.
But in the islamic world a narrow, fundamentalistic attitude to scripture developed centuries ago is still going strong, and (some would contend) only getting stronger, to the detriment of everbody (especially Muslims)
And anyone that gets in its way of late, Such as Infidels, Pagans, Jews and Christian, simply anyone who isn't muslim.
I have located what I think is an excellent article examing the historical and contemporary forces that have shaped islamic culture. I won't attempt to paraphrase it - I dont think it is over-long.
I will read it when I have more time, but it is interesting that Raza Rumi opens his peace with this:
"The rise of global Islamism in the form of al-Qaeda and the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) will pose a major challenge to the security of both Western and Muslim-majority nations for years to come".
This is indicating that the Islamic threat is not a flash in the pan as much as you would like and want us all to believe prosser. Also notice that, just like you prosser, he loves using that playdown word, "Islamist" a lot as if these "Islamists " have nothing to do with Islam.
Tell me, prosser, in your own words; Why do these "islamists" claim that they represent Islam in its most pure, truest form. What makes them believe they do? Where do they get the idea that they are the true representatives of Islam?
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@disgusted
According to propaganda the Tanakh (the first 5 books of the bible) were written by Moses. What language did he write them in?
Tanakh is only an acronym of the first Hebrew letter of each of the Masoretic Text's three traditional subdivisions: Torah ('Teaching', also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nevi'im ('Prophets') and Ketuvim ('Writings')—hence TaNaKh.
And that is not what is being asked, is it? Why don't you take time to take in the question? say; another 15 years should do it for you
Well maybe Hebrew is not what you need to learn?
Who are you to say either way? . Who are you to say what she/he needs to learn? Look BOLD and UNDERLINED
janesix says >>>>>>>> "I want to learn hebrew <<<<<<<<< and biblical hebrew so i can read the torah in it's original language." The Torah is Hebrew and written in Hebrew. What do you not comprehend about that? Why can you not just be helpful.
Here is the pdf of the HEBREW Torah. Written in HEBREW.
And here is a video on learning the biblical HEBREW
1 Learning Biblical Hebrew Beginners Part 1
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@Greyparrot
First, above that was supposed to read " No oil will send them back to the dark ages leaving them without anything to trade for new technology.
And I agree with what you say concerning SA oil not being the only oil available to the USA.
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In that it doesn't work when you persistently attempt to paint me as an "islamophobic racist bigot, who spreads "hate and division".I fear that is the impression many members have of you without any prompting on my part.
Speaking for the forum again I see.
A "backward form of Wahabbist Islam" you say. But it is still Islam. OK. So that would be an interpretation or "form" as you put it. Are there any other interpretations or "forms"? Why are you struggling to answer the question above. Again it was YOU who suggests there must be other "forms" of Islam, so what are they or what is it? How many are there?I find it odd you even ask that question. I don't think you have the impression that Islam is a monolith with every Muslim in lockstep. I'm not talking about sects - there are are conservative an progressive shia, conservative and progressive sunni. Muslims are individuals, so in way there are as many forms of Islam as there are Muslims.So what was the point of posting the question?
Because you singled out one form and called it the "backward form of islam". What is the ' forward form '? I see you have attempted to avoid the question by filibustering . Why don't you just tell me another "form" and explain to me how and why it is different to what you call the "backward form of Islam" that you have pointed out.
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@disgusted
I've never expressed any hate mail.
Posting on a open forum statements calling muslims " stupid " and saying that they have serious"mental health issues" is a direct attack on a religious group IS hate mail. In this case you have singled out Islam, muslims, their god and their prophet. This is hate crime whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. It is what the law and the judge and the courts say it is. NOT YOU!
I know you think it's hateful that people refuse to call you a christianophobe
Not at all. I am calling you and prosser out for your fkn double standards and hypocrisy, as you well know. .
Anyone that believes in gods and religion has mental health problems,
And in this case you singled out Islam for your inflammatory bile. You have made that clear with your direct insults to muslims and bigotry towards their beliefs and their prophet and their god. This is hate crime whether you agree with it or not. It is also blasphemy in Islam for which the penalty is death. What you have wrote are extremely inflammatory statements for you to make against muslims and are nothing less than hate speech.
you asked me if that's what I think and I affirmed it was.
No I asked you to confirm your original statement. Of which I have screenshots, You did just as I knew you would and you went further. Give a buffoon enough rope and he is sure to hang himself . Those statements are extremely inflammatory statements for you to make against an ethnic minority religious group in this case muslims and they are nothing less than hate speech. The law is perfectly clear on this issue.
That's not hate,
Sorry but that is only your opinion of what hate crime is. The law says different and so does Islam.
"conduct that is likely to stir up hatred on grounds of race, or intended to do so on grounds of religion or sexual orientation in the Public Order Act 1986".
Even Salman Rushdie didn't call muslims, Allah or the prophet "stupid" and he didn't say that "all Muslims, Allah and the prophet muhammad" have "mental health issues" either and his head is worth over $4,000,000 last time I looked
it's exactly the same emotion I hold for you and that is pity.
No, it is NOT the same. (1) I don't happen to be a muslim (2) I am not a religious group. (3) Islam is not my faith.
I don't give two front teeth about your emotions no more than you give two for mine. And there is no need to pity me. And you hating me doesn't make a blind bit of difference, it is all irrelevant.
You both are the hypocrites with double standards and you especially, just doesn't know when to stop and think before he posts.
I haven't committed an offence by calling out Islam. You on the other hand, well, your own inflammatory words speak for themselves. I would agree, that what is behind and what drives and what motivates the inflammatory statements may make all the difference. But when a man teaches his dog to give a nazi salute for a joke and is fined £800 , one has to wonder what or where the line is crossed when attacking a whole religious group for their religious beliefs and direct insults to their god calling their god and prophet "stupid" and suggesting they all need straight jackets and should all be sectioned. We'll have to wait and see but the conviction rate for "hate crime" has gone through the roof lately. This will be down to left wing liberals and apologist such as yourself and prosser getting offended on others peoples behalf and seeing all kinds of racism and "islamophobia" just about everywhere they look. My niece would know more about this than me , she works for the CPS West Midlands I'll get back to you on it if you wish.
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i don't see being bad at it as a negative!
In that it doesn't work when you persistently attempt to paint me as an "islamophobic racist bigot, who spreads "hate and division".
I can't see how what you are doing is so different from being against Christianity because some Christians have killed abortionists.
You don't want to see anything that contains facts. How many times!? They are not killing abortionist on the direct instructions the Christ god. And there are no instructions that allows or encourages them to do so, that is the difference and I have pointed out this difference many times before but you keep returning to this and similar as if you have had a ' gotcha ' moment. You haven't. The answer will always be the same.
AM I a christianophobe? Because I ought to be if you insist we go by your bent and twisted left wing liberal apologetic standards. ? Just like that other hypocrite, you don't say a word about me slating and criticizing christianity. I say Islam is a bad idea and barbaric and on your high horse you climb racing to rescue islam. The thing is , you never have anything good to say about Islam. You just attack me in its defence.
Many people point a finger at Saudi Arabia which certainly has the wealth and power to promote and export its notoriously backward form of Wahabbist Islam worldwide.
A "backward form of Wahabbist Islam" you say. But it is still Islam. OK. So that would be an interpretation or "form" as you put it. Are there any other interpretations or "forms"?
Why are you struggling to answer the question above. Again it was YOU who suggests there must be other "forms" of Islam, so what are they or what is it? How many are there?
What is a "ordinary muslim"? You brought the phrase "ordinary muslim" to the thread. So explain to us all what one is.
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@Greyparrot
Aren't we petroleum sufficient (independant) right now? Why do we need Saudi Oil? It's not like Saudi is doing anything to keep Iran in check either, despite being mostly Sunni.
It may have something to do with refining. I think it is that SA have a better quality of oil and needs less refining where as the US produces more crude. Then there is Light crude and Heavy crude. Light crude produces more gasoline/petrol and diesel than Heavey. There is much less crap to filter in Light than Heavy.
But Saudi Arabia is running out and are said to be in a panic. No oil will send them back to the dark ages leaving them with have to trade for new technology. They don't produce anything else to my knowledge.
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@coal
As some of you may know, Saudi Arabia once again has reaffirmed why it is a terrorist state whose government's members should be lined up and shot, Romanov style.They beheaded a 16 year old boy for sending WhatsApp messages about protesting governmental abuses.Each of the so called "terrorism" suspects were tortured; their confessions came from duress, and the mass execution is reminiscent of Soviet "great purges".And yet, the Trump administration sells weapons to them.
Yet the western apologist for Islam will have us believe that because woman can now drive cars (with the permission of their husband, father or brother, of course) that Islam is reforming and dragging itself into the 21st century. The Muslim Sultan of Brunei has just reaffirmed ancient Islamic dictates too.
"Brunei enacts new penal code as sultan calls for 'stronger' Islam
New penal code imposes death penalty for rape, adultery, sodomy, robbery and introduces public flogging."
New penal code imposes death penalty for rape, adultery, sodomy, robbery and introduces public flogging."
"It also introduces public flogging as punishment for abortion as well as amputation for theft and criminalises exposing Muslim children to the beliefs and practices of any religion other than Islam". And the death penalty for insulting or defaming the Prophet Muhammad.
Yes, they really are reforming and modernising Islam, aren't they.
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@disgusted
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YOU infer that muslims are "stupid" and islam is "stupid" and the prophet muhammad is " stupid " and that the prophet muhammad and muslims all have " serious mental health issues" .I don't infer it at all, I state it categorically and the same goes for all religions.
So according to you all muslims are stupid people for their belief in Islam & Allah who is also stupid and muhammad their prophet who is also stupid, and all muslim have serious "mental health issues" because they have a faith; and that is ok for you to say that is it.
I on the other hand, call out ISLAM for the vile ideology that it is and I am a fkn racist bigoted islamlamophobe. I have slated, questioned and criticize christianity often but never have you called me Christianophobia and accused me of spreading hate and fear. That is why you are a fkn hypocrite! If anyone has spread hate and caused division on this forum it is you? Those are extremely inflammatory statements for you to make against muslims and are nothing less than hate speech. That is why you are a hypocrite! If anyone is bigoted towards a belief , it is you and only YOU. I haven't and wouldn't call anyone out for the faith they follow and I certainly wouldn't tell a muslim or a Christian that they "have mental health issues" and suggest that they should be sectioned under the provisions of the mental health act for simply having a faith. That is what makes you a hypocrite! Anywhere else you would have been banned for using such inflammatory hate speech.
And I have to wonder why the pompous prosser has kept quiet on your behalf and never once called you out for you vile statements you make when you spread such vile hatred towards anyone for just having a faith? That's what make prosser a fkn hypocrite too.
So Muslims, Muhammad the prophet and Allah the god of islam all have " mental health issues"Yes now explain what you think hypocrite means and how it applies to me.
See above. Oh and all those inflammatory insults that you have made against Muslims, and their god Allah and their prophet Muhammad, all carry the death penalty in ISLAM.
And your inflammatory statements are classed as hate speech in the UK. especially in writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.
Whatever will the owners of the site will make of it all? Will they be held responsible for your inflammatory statements against a religious group? I hope not.
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@keithprosser
At least in that case we have two words: 'nazi' and 'german'. You seem reluctant to allow a clear verbal distinction in the case of Muslims.
I have never said "all muslims" were terrorist as much as you like to keep implying that I have. I have also said muslims are entitled to believe what they want to believe and pray to whoever they wish to pray to,.. I have also said MOST! - ( that is the MAJORITY) of Germans were peaceful , just as I have said MOST muslims (that is the MAJORITY) are peaceful. I have also said that it makes not the slightest bit of difference because the PEACEFUL MAJORITY are irrelevant. You see, what it is that you keep denying and or ignoring is that ISLAM is not peaceful by any means. I keep telling you that it is ISLAM that I have a problem with and "not all muslims". And stop trying to make this personal, you are no good at it.
What - in yiur view - are good terms we can use?
On the back foot again are we keith? Stop asking me questions when you ignore my questions.
Here you go:
Many people point a finger at Saudi Arabia which certainly has the wealth and power to promote and export its notoriously backward form of Wahabbist Islam worldwide.
A "backward form of Wahabbist Islam" you say. But it is still Islam. OK. So that would be an interpretation or "form" as you put it. Are there any other interpretations or "forms"?
And question that you keep swerving:
but it's not my experience thatordinary muslims crave for a world caliphate!@Stephen What is a"ordinary muslim"?@ keithprosser You know what anordinary Englishman like? Ordinary muslims are pretty similar.
No, a " muslim" is someone that follows an ideology known as Islam. Islam is not a race and neither does being a muslim make one a part of a race. As much as left wing liberal apologists such as yourself are trying to force this belief and definition onto us, it doesn't work. This is you trying to make a muslim part of a race AGAIN!
An Englishman on the other hand belongs to a race called the English who belong to and originates from a geographical area on the globe named England. For now anyway.
So instead of being so fkn childish, just try and explain to me your definition of a "ordinary muslim". You did introduce the term, after all.
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@keithprosser
If you do know who is interpreting this quran correctly then spit it out, lets have it. But you don't know either do you.As an atheist, I don't quite understand what 'correct interpretation' means.
So, as I guessed. You don't know. And neither do I and I have never professed to know either.
Neither peace nor war can be Allah's will if Allah does not exist so there is no 'correct interpretation' as far as I am concerned.
But that is ONLY your opinion of someone's religion. Muslims , millions of muslim will disagree with and do disagree with you.
But then why are you even commenting here on this thread? I am discussing islam,a religious ideology believed by over a billion people worldwide and you don't believe any of it do you "as an atheist".
Neither is correct, or closer to non-existent Allah's will.
"Neither is correct?" That's a good start, keith. Well then why don't you start a thread on your opinion? Or are you just going to keep defaulting back to you oft used get out "as an atheist", whilst you purposely ignore the fact that over a billion muslims believe in allah and his prophet. You do this every time that you corner yourself with your own pompous arrogant opinion.
I suspect that the real cause of what happened in Sri Lanka is not what is in the koran but power struggles in the Muslim world,
And apart from "economic conditions, under-employment of young men, mis-directed loyalties" what are the reasons you believe this is not a religious power struggle are what exactly when the evidence shows the opposite.
Many people point a finger at Saudi Arabia which certainly has the wealth and power to promote and export its notoriously backward form of Wahabbist Islam worldwide.
A "backward form of Wahabbist Islam" you say. But it is still Islam. OK. So that would be an interpretation or "form" as you put it. Are there any other interpretations or "forms"? or are you just spouting an opinion again without supporting evidence?.
Neither peace nor war can be Allah's will if Allah does not exist.
The quran says different and billions believe in the existence of allah. You have to look at this from that stance. But you won't do this because then second you do, you will simply have to admit that there is something wrong with Islam AND how it is being interpreted. In truth keith, you really are a coward.
Now. How about YOU starting some threads on your opinions and you "examinations" of Islam or is that too risky for you?
Of course there are passages in the Koran that permit a jihadist interpretation, but there must be reasons why those interpretations are - at least apparently - gaining ground.
Yes you have said that twice and I respond with the same reply. Why don't you start thread "examining why" this appears to be the case. I personally don't believe jihad has ever gone away. You seem to believe that it just happened in these last few decades, but as usual give no reason or support for your beliefs. It is very easy just to spout an opinion without evidence or reason as you often do. You tell me you are "no fan of Islam", but never explain why. You accuse me of showing islam in a bad light but then fail to show Islam in a good light when repeatedly asked to do so. You call me a racist and a bigot , a spreader of hate and intolerance likened me to the KKK and of being far right when you know absolutely nothing about me and that favourite tag all apologists use "islamophobic". Yet I have slated and criticise the Bible new & Old Testaments and Christianity yet you don't mind that one single bit. You don't call me Christianophobic., why is that?
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@disgusted
Why are you so frightened by several thousand criminals in the Middle East,
At least your beginning to recognise that it is more than just "one or two" muslims terrorist that want to murder or convert anyone not muslim. Well done.
GOOD BOY!!!
Yes criminals, muslim criminals committing acts of terrorism and who are carrying out the will of their god Allah. Well done again. GOOD BOY!
Added: 04.24.19 03:29PM https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1609?page=3&post_number=75
It's a fact that nobody is born with a religion,
Muslims Born with a religion were created muslim are according to muslims,Muhammad the prophet and Allah the god of islam.
anybody who claims otherwise has serious mental health issues.
So Muslims, Muhammad the prophet and Allah the god of islam all have " mental health issues" . I see, OK, hypocrite. I have never said anything like that. I am glad it was you who said that and I will never let you forget that it was you who said that..
You attempt to tell me what some religious people believe .......
I didn't attempt to tell you anything. I corrected you on your belief that" Nobody is born with a religion installed. I have shown you the evidence of what muslims believe. Muslims who have babies of islamic parenthood and born into the islamic religion are born muslims according to muslims, Muhammad the prophet and Allah the god of islam. What are you finding confusing about that.
.........and tell me how wrong their beliefs are,
Example Of me telling you that. Off you trot lets see it then.
You obviously don't understand ANYTHING but keep blathering, it's funny.
I am pleased you find it funny. I happen to understand that you are a full blown hypocrite of that there is no confusion on my part..
YOU infer that muslims are "stupid" and islam is "stupid" and the prophet muhammad is " stupid " and that the prophet muhammad and muslims all have " serious mental health issues" .
Like I said, your a fkn hypocrite, who doesn't accept facts even when they are shoved in your gaping uneducated pie hole.
You're quite confused. Nobody is born with a religion installed, no matter what your profit [sic] says, hahaha.
It is only your opinion that "Nobody is born with a religion installed," Muslims believe different and are taught different to what you believe. ARE THEY ALL CONFUSED!!!? .
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@secularmerlin
It appears yet again that christian apologist simply cannot face facts. It shouldn't though, come as any surprise. But at least no one wants to kill me for criticizing Christianity and questioning the bible. I am not even called christianophobic.
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It appears yet again that christian apologist simply cannot face facts. It shouldn't though, come as any surprise. But at least no one wants to kill me for criticizing Christianity and questioning the bible. I am not even called christianophobic.
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@keithprosser
You think anyone who isn't frothing-at-the-mouth anti-Islam is an apologist!
I have a sneak feeling it is you who is getting frustrated and maybe "frothing at the mouth" because you have no answer to the facts that I present. I can assure you, there is no "frothing" my end. but watching you splutter and stutter and trip over yourself and paint yourself often into a corner, I will admit gives me pleasure at times. It is nice to see a self satisfied, pompous smug buffon such as yourself, wriggle in frustration at the inability to respond without name calling.
Insulting me with silly opinion is not discussing the problems that you yourself have risen on the matter of Muslim extremism..
Let me remind you.
In my view, the problems posed by religious extremism are not fully explained by the presence of this or that passage in the Koran.
So lets see your explanation as to where these muslim terrorist are getting the idea that it is allah's will to blow little girls to pieces. Or are you just spouting again.
It appears you take the view that it is the jihadist interpretation that is the correct one and terrorists are obeying what the koran and hadith teach.
Yes it may appear that way to you. You only see what you want to see. But the truth is I don't know. Do you? Did you not see my questions on the end of that sentence? I have reposted it above so you can read it. It is clearly written and in bold. Can you see it? Now, can you answer that question or not? Because I don't know, DO YOU!? If you do know who is interpreting this quran correctly then spit it out, lets have it. But you don't know either do you.
Instead of pointing out the obvious - ie the presence of passages that permit of jihadist interpretation - it would be more useful to examine why 'fundamentalist' interpretations of Islam have gained increased significance over the last few decades.
It might just be useful, So start your thread then. I can't wait to read you examinations of how or why 'fundamentalist' interpretations of Islam have gained increased significance over the last few decades?
The koran has not changed for over a thousand years -
I know. It might even be "more useful to examine why islam" hasn't reformed. There's another thread for you to examine and start. My, you are going to be busy aren't you?
Now, I don't see what I post as apologetics.
Of course you don't! No prizes or surprises there is there.
I'm saying 'things are complicated' and I try to describe some of the complication - that isn't apologetics.
No you don't- unless i have missed something -. So show me, where it is that you have attempted " to describe some of the complications". What specifically are the complications? Where do they originate? Who causes them? Why are they so "complicated"? How can they be solved? lets here it. Or are you just spouting AGAIN!?
Like it or not, there will be a significant presence of Muslims in Britain from now on. " Get over it"
I say. Dreary me. There there. Talk about "frothing"!. Calm down my old son, calm down.
"from now on"!? LOL, you really are desperate aren't you? Muslims have been coming to and living in Britain since the 60's to my knowledge I grew up with many Arab kids and went to school with many in Wednesbury Staffs .
"Get over it".
Oh deary me. You are frothing aren't you. No, I won't get over it. And neither will the friends and relatives of those little girls blown to bits in Manchester or the friends and relatives of Lee Rigby. I can tolerate it, which is something Islam doesn't even entertain, but then to tolerate infers dislike and disagreement , and that is the crux with you isn't it. You want me to - accept - it and not just tolerate it.
Go away and come back when you have answers to your own questions instead of just spouting just words "we should" be looking at or examining and then not actually telling us what "we" should be looking at and examining!!
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The reason muslims don't like the label 'moderate muslim is that they feel it implies 'undevout muslim'.
I would have never have guessed that if you hadn't mentioned it. Although I have mentioned above that IN MY OPINION and have made it extremely clear THAT "I think I would find it offensive also as it indicates a division and separatism among a religious group". See those words again keith I have emboldened them and underlined them for you. Now go back to post 104 above last sentence.
So they have a reason then. It is strange that you think this. This is something you have never admitted before when the question of what it actually means to be a "moderate muslim". No you usual answer to this thorny question is simply " like a ordinary Englishman".
that they feel it implies 'undevout muslim'.
Yes keith THEY do. And with good reason. Are you going to tell them that their reasons are unfounded? I doubt it. You wouldn't know where to begin. As usual, your full of spouting without reasoning behind it.
It is as if they aren't blowing up churches they are not 'proper muslims'.
yes opinion and more desperation. Stop it, grow up and start discussing. or simply leave the thread.
You linked to an article by Sarraz Manzoor - I offer a link to a 30 minute radio 4 documentary .
Why should I listen to it keith? Does he contradict what he has already said on the matter of " moderate muslims" and "dropping" the phrase? No? then I do not need to listen to it , now do I.
You have given me your interpretation of what it means to be a "moderate muslim" , haven't you? Have you changed your mind?
I am quite happy to accept the opinion from someone who actually does know and who is an ACTUAL muslim. I know, like all apologist that you cannot accept facts, but here it is again from the horse's mouth:
"These epithets of 'moderate Islam' are very ugly, it is disrespectful and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it."Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. He also claimed that the "patent of this concept originated in the West," which "really want[s] to weaken Islam."
Get over it!
And I just love the way that you have totally ignored my responses you you other boring posts.
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@secularmerlin
If any omniscient being existed freewill would logically be precluded
I am looking for the Christian take on this , but I do agree.
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@Snoopy
Why are some Muslims called "moderate"and by whom?
There is no such thing as a "moderate muslim" . It is simply yet another appeasing term invented by left wing liberal apologists of the West. Muslims it is said find the term "moderate muslim" extremely offensive.
Turkey Rejects "Moderate Islam"
"These epithets of 'moderate Islam' are very ugly, it is disrespectful and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it."Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. He also claimed that the "patent of this concept originated in the West," which "really want[s] to weaken Islam."
So there you have it from the horse's mouth. If this muslim Prime Minister of a country that once had three muslim empires under its belt doesn't recognise this "offensive and ugly" term, then who is some left wing liberal in the west to argue with him.
"Can we drop the term ‘moderate Muslim’? It’s meaningless". The word moderate means devout to some, liberal to others. We don’t need it to describe ordinary followers of a tolerant religion
I think I would find it offensive also as it indicates a division and separatism among a religious group. It could be regarded as hate speech by some muslims. But that is only my opinion.
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@keithprosser
In my view, the problems posed by religious extremism are not fully explained by the presence of this or that passage in the Koran.
So lets see your explanation as to where these muslim terrorist are getting the idea that it is allah's will to blow little girls to pieces. Or are you just spouting again.
I don't think Sri Lankan Muslims suddenly came across the verses you highlight and decided to act on them. Nor did the Sultan of Brunei open his Koran for the first time last week.
That's right, They didn't. And neither did the Sultan. No, they also have read the same quran as the muslim terrorist.But you are very good at omitting or simply ignoring what I say. This is more of your sly bs tactics to allow yourself to spout something that you believe I haven't recognised. So again go back to post #90 and read what I have actually wrote and stop being so fkn ignorant. Here you go. save you the trouble
From post 90. Look for the word REAFFIRMED. it is written in bold AND underlined so only you can miss it intentionally.
(4) Islam on the other hand has not moved a single millimeter in over 1400 years and has absolutely no intention of changing and conforming to a 21st century "modern society" . Take for example the Muslim Sultan of Brunei Hassanal Bolkiah who has just only weeks ago confirmed his allegiance to Islamic shariah law and reaffirmed ancient Islamic dictates and called for "stronger islamic law"
"Brunei is enacting a strict new penal code that imposes death by stoning for adultery and gay sex, as well as amputations as punishment for theft, despite widespread criticism"https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/04/brunei-enacts-sharia-law-sultan-calls-stronger-islam-190403060932396.html
Now lets us look at the word REAFFIRMED and its meaning, shall we children.
To REAFFIRM is to - State again strongly. - Confirm the validity of something previously established.
So, no keith I didn't think Sri Lankan Muslims suddenly came across the verses you or I or anyone else highlight and decided to act on them as I have clearly stated. AND NO ! I don't believe the Sultan of Brunei opened his Koran for the first time last week. This is why I mentioned it. The verses are there and have been REAFFIRMED and stated strongly by non other than a muslim Sultan.So your devious intention to make me look somehow retarded has backfired. The reason I mentioned the Muslim Sultans barbaric dictates was to show that Islam had absolutely no intention of reforming. he proved my point!
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@keithprosser
So that is ALL muslims, extremist and so called "moderate muslims" alike read exactly the same Quran, Hadith & Surah. We have to ask then which muslims among ALL of these muslims are reading the quran and interpreting it correctly. Do you know?It appears you take the view that it is the jihadist interpretation that is the correct one and terrorists are obeying what the koran and hadith teach.
Yes it may appear that way to you. You only see what you want to see. But the truth is I don't know. Do you? Did you not see my questions on the end of that sentence? I have reposted it above so you can read it. It is clearly written and in bold. Can you see it? Now, can you answer that question or not? Because I don't know, DO YOU!? If you do know who is interpreting this quran correctly then spit it out, lets have it. But you don't know either do you.
That is the view of 'non-moderate' Muslims,
'non-moderate' being Jihadi muslim extremist who read the same quran as the so called "moderate muslims"; Yes we have already done that keith,
but it is not accepted by all scholars nor is it reflected in the actual behaviour of the vast majority of Muslims.
So, what's your point? There muslims scholars agree that Jihad is holy war until all religion is for allah as per quran. And I have already done the "majority of muslims". How many times. the majority are irrelevant. It was said that nearly 2,000,000 people marched on London in protest against the illegal war in Iraq and most people sitting at home didn't agree with that war either. But they were irrelevant. If you want to keep up the "not all muslims" rhetoric knock yourself out, It doesn't change a damn thing and it doesn't mean anything either.
Instead of pointing out the obvious - ie the presence of passages that permit of jihadist interpretation - it would be more useful to examine why 'fundamentalist' interpretations of Islam have gained increased significance over the last few decades.
It might just be useful, So start your thread then. I can't wait to read you examinations of how or why 'fundamentalist' interpretations of Islam have gained increased significance over the last few decades?
The koran has not changed for over a thousand years -
I know. It might even be "more useful to examine why islam" hasn't reformed. There's another thread for you to examine and start. My, you are going to be busy aren't you?
Of course there are passages in the Koran that permit a jihadist interpretation, but there must be reasons why those interpretations are - at least apparently - gaining ground.
Yes you have said that twice and I respond with the same reply. Why don't you start thread "examining why" this appears to be the case. I personally don't believe jihad has ever gone away. You seem to believe that it just happened in these last few decades, but as usual give no reason or support for your beliefs. It is very easy just to spout an opinion without evidence or reason as you often do. You tell me you are "no fan of Islam", but never explain why. You accuse me of showing islam in a bad light but then fail to show Islam in a good light when repeatedly asked to do so. You call me a racist and a bigot , a spreader of hate and intolerance likened me to the KKK and of being far right when you know absolutely nothing about me and that favourite tag all apologists use "islamophobic". Yet I have slated and criticise the Bible new & Old Testaments and Christianity yet you don't mind that one single bit. You don't call me Christianophobic., why is that?
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You can read Arabic?
No, I can't read Greek or Latin either. But can every single Pakistani muslim read arabic. Listen If I have misquoted the quran, simply tell me I have and we can discuss it. But please, don't start giving me bs about not understanding the quran simply because I cannot speak or read arabic. It is an old argument and it doesn't work.
Also, when did this atrocity happen, and was this from a representative group of Muslims .
Which atrocity are you referring to? Are you talking about the muslim invasions that conquered many nations converting by the sword as it went. There have been many muslim empires The muslim Ottoman Empires were, I believe, three of the biggest, not to mention other muslim empires.
Is it justified to hold all Muslims accountable for what happened hundreds of years ago?
Listen my friend, it was you who brought The Letter to Baghdadi into the mix. I have picked just one item from the list in the letter, this one, item 8 where they, your moderate muslim academics, state:
8. "Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and the right rules of conduct".http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/
I simply ask you and these moderate muslim academics, if the above truly be the case, what were muslims " defending" when they conquered large swaths of Europe, the Caucuses, the Holy Land and the Indian subcontinent?
Is it justified to hold all Muslims accountable for what happened hundreds of years ago?
(A) Sometimes it maybe the case. It really depends on the subject. Christians are alway having their noses pushed into the "crusades" and the Old Testament. But these people do this because they are running out of argument and are those who do this seem to forget that (1) the crusades were in direct response to over 400 years of muslim invasion into various parts of the globe. (2) the Old Testament is an ancient text written for and by Hebrews.
Should we hold Buddhists accountable for the atrocities committed against the Rohingya How about the Philippines for action taken against the Moro people?
If they are happening now then they should be held to account. so my answer is yes. but see my reply above at (A).
Also, yes. Verses tend to contradict one another. Its a thousand year old book,
It is an old book and its instructions are STILL being adhered to by its adherents.
just like the Bible.
Yes again. I agree see above. But I have already covered this above a few times now. the Old Testament is an ancient text written for and by Hebrews and has nothing much in common with, or a place in, todays western "modern society"
People tend to have a double-standard when it comes to Islam.
They do. I don't. There are many contradictions and vile passages in the OT bible as I have already made clear. And what I have also have made clear is that the Quran is barbaric and has no place in a western "modern society" and the New Testament is not barbaric.
Additionally:"We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely"http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=32
Indeed good old verse 5:32. Our Western 21st century world leaders are forever quoting this one single verse. Strange they never get as far as the next verse down isn't it. I wonder why;
Quran 5:33 – unless, those who wage war againstAllah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption/mischief isnone but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cutoff from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for thema disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.
I said none of those things. I don't know what you are insinuating about my character, but it is not an accurate portrayal of a conversation I ever had in public.
I know you haven't said any of those things. I was thanking you and praising your behaviour and intellect in keeping with good taste and propriety i.e. your decorum, In other words it comes as a refreshing change to actually discuss these problems such as Islam and or christianity without the usual abuse. So I thank you again. It is nice exchanging with you.
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I very good reason to believe all those verses are either contradicted by other verses or have simply been abrogated by islamic law. ...their translation is disingenuous to a fault and they know it. tell me what was islam "defending" when it invaded Europe and the Caucuses and the Indian Subcontinent, your academically learned moderate muslims, they don't explain that do they?And yours aren't?
?. If you mean contradictions in the bible NT or OT yes there are many I highlight them often when questioning Christians or biblical scholars. I don't see your point. What do you mean "yours"??
You have good reason to believe that they were erased?
I said contradicted by other verses or abrogated. I don't have time to check them but I will. But for now, many of the fluffy - christian-like- verses in the quran either only apply to muslims as instruction on how to love and respect their muslim brothers and do not apply to anyone else or have simply been abrogated and replaced with something else. The excuse Muhammad gives for doing this is because, he says, satan caused him write to them, and are known to the world as The Satanic Verses.
Why are they less valid than yours?
You keep saying "mine" as if I am some defender of christianity and the New Testament, I am not either. I have started more thread criticizing and questioning Christianity than I have Islam, that's a fact. But I will say again, you will not find The Christ instructing his followers to go out into the world and rape, maim or murder anyone who refuses to believe in him or refuses to submit to his ideology as does the god of Quran.
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@blamonkey
What do you believe has caused this sympathy and why is it do you believe has caused many to join "racist" causes and the showing of a rise in white supremacist organizationsNo clue. Ask a social scientist.I would suggest that political polarization and fear are factors that contribute to boosted numbers for these groups.
"Not a clue"? That does surprises me. Seeing that you felt the need to mention "racists causes" and a "rise in white supremacy" . Interesting you mention the fear factor here. So do you think the cause of "rise in white supremacy" & racism may be down to a fear factor? What of, and who of? What and why are these "racist" fearing?
Muslims read the same Quran and associated Hadiths.
So that is ALL muslims, extremist and so called "moderate muslims" alike read exactly the same Quran, Hadith & Surah. We have to ask then which muslims among ALL of these muslims are reading the quran and interpreting it correctly. Do you know?
The difference is that some people aren't committing violence.
Yes, we have done the "not all muslims" a few times now and I will reply with the same answer; not all germans were Nazis.
The moderate Muslim is likely to realize that ISIS violates the tenants of the Quran per evidence from the Letter to Baghdad.
Yes 49 extremely well educated scholars from various fields of academia who don't actually explain anything but as you put it "cherry picked verses" from the same book that you admit that the muslim extremist also take the instructions from. Did you not take 4 minutes to watch the preacher in the video . Listen to this learned preacher preaching to ordinary self confessed "moderate muslims" and look for the show of hands? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpeMxf2ITig&t=5s
The Westboro Baptist Church reads the same bible as others, [......] It's the same with the KKK and associated white supremacist groups. Perhaps this is the same for ISIS.
No it isn't the same. Nowhere in the New Testament will you read instructions from the Christian god - The Christ instructing his followers to go out into the world and rape, maim or murder anyone who refuses to believe in him or refuses to submit to his ideology as does the god of Quran.
As proof of religions generally having some verses that are less than savory, I offer these:(1)“When a man sells his daughter as a slave,.......(2)"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman,.......(3)“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished .....(4)Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.......Go ask a Christian if they believe these rules are fair in a modern society.
All the above are absolutely disgraceful and all taken from the Ancient Hebrew text we know as the Old Testament. And I am sure Christians will say no.
Very well.
I am glad you finished that with "modern society".
So, (1) you have taken ancient rules and instructions from an ancient text that is at least 6,000 years old ,and attempted to contextualize them with Christianity today in the 21st century.."modern society" . It simply doesn't work.
(2) These verses are ancient Hebrew text that even Jews/Israelis won't recognise; that is to say, they adhere to in the 21st century.."modern society". No, there is no death for homosexuality, no stoning for adulterous women and women can even be Rabbis where once they were either at the back , in another room or as far out into the outer temple courtyard. Indeed the first woman Rabbi was Asenath Barzani 1590-1670. Yes Israel has certainly moved with the times and made itself a "modern society" in the 21st century
(3) As mentioned the Old Testament was scribed by Hebrew scribes for a 6,000 + year old Hebrew audience. Christians didn't come into existence until millenia after, that would be some 6,000+ years after this ancient OT script was written and are not followed by the 21st Christian in a "modern society".
(4) Islam on the other hand has not moved a single millimeter in over 1400 years and has absolutely no intention of changing and conforming to a 21st century "modern society" . Take for example the Muslim Sultan of Brunei Hassanal Bolkiah who has just only weeks ago confirmed his allegiance to Islamic shariah law and reaffirmed ancient Islamic dictates and called for "stronger islamic law"
"Brunei is enacting a strict new penal code that imposes death by stoning for adultery and gay sex, as well as amputations as punishment for theft, despite widespread criticism"https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/04/brunei-enacts-sharia-law-sultan-calls-stronger-islam-190403060932396.html
So here's back at you my friend:
Go ask a muslim if they believe these rules are fair in a modern society. ?
I am sure the answer will be a BIG YES! as proven by the show of hands in this 4 minute video I don't believe you have taken the time to watch, yet .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpeMxf2ITig&t=5s
As a side-note, religious violence in the US is minimal compared to the rest of the world.
I am glad you have recognised that fact. The rest of the world as you put it, is not the 21st century western world. As you have recognised. But still you attempt (as a side note of course) to conflate the "rest of the world" into your argument when you understand very clearly we are talking about Islam in the western 21st century "modern society" it was you who after all who brought "modern society" into the conversation, wasn't it.
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@TheRealNihilist
Not all ISIS members are Muslims but ISIS members are Muslims.
Read what you have wrote above very slowly, then go and hide behind your settee until the laughter has died down.
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@Vader
Which religion is responsible for this murderous atrocity of innocent Christians at prayer on one of the Holiest days in the Christian calendar?Islam
So it appears that your initial verdict on who was responsible for these attacks were right on the money, SupaDudz. How ever did you come to such a conclusion so quick with so little to go on?
""‘This bloody day is our reward to you’: Islamic State claims responsibility for Sri Lanka massacre
Islamic State has officially claimed responsibility for the Easter Sunday bombings in Sri Lanka via its al-Amaq news agency"".
Terror organisation Islamic State has claimed responsibility for Sri Lankan attacks that have killed 321 people and injured over 500. Islamic State has claimed responsibility for the Easter Sunday church and hotel bombings in Sri Lanka that killed at least 321 people and wounded more than 500.
Sri Lanka bombings 2019: ISIS claims responsibility for attacks
I think we can safely take it then the suicide bombers were muslims who read exactly the same book and worship the same god as the so called "moderate muslims".
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It's a fact that nobody is born with a religion,
Muslims born with a religion were created muslim are according to muslims, Muhammad the prophet and Allah the god of islam.
anybody who claims otherwise has serious mental health issues.
So muslims, Muhammad the prophet and Allah the god of islam all have " mental health issues" . I see, OK, hypocrite. I have never said anything like that. I am glad it was you who said that and I will never let you forget that it was you who said that..
You attempt to tell me what some religious people believe .......
I didn't attempt to tell you anything. I corrected you on your belief that " Nobody is born with a religion installed. I have shown you the evidence of what muslims believe. Muslims who have babies of islamic parenthood and born into the islamic religion are born muslims according to muslims, Muhammad the prophet and Allah the god of islam. What are you finding confusing about that.
.........and tell me how wrong their beliefs are,
Example of me telling you that. Off you trot lets see it then.
You obviously don't understand ANYTHING but keep blathering, it's funny.
I am pleased you find it funny. I happen to understand that you are a full blown hypocrite of that there is no confusion on my part..
YOU infer that muslims are "stupid" and islam is "stupid" and the prophet muhammad is " stupid " and that the prophet muhammad and muslims all have " serious mental health issues" .
Like I said, your a fkn hypocrite, who doesn't accept facts even when they are shoved in your gaping uneducated pie hole.
You're quite confused. Nobody is born with a religion installed, no matter what your profit [sic] says, hahaha.
It is only your opinion that "Nobody is born with a religion installed," Muslims believe different and are taught different to what you believe. ARE THEY ALL CONFUSED!!!? .
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@ronjs
Free will means people can be influenced by whatever they like
Free Will & The Christian - Get Out
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@disgusted
You're quite confused. Nobody is born with a religion installed, no matter what your profit [sic] says, hahaha.
Don't shoot the messenger. It is only your opinion that "Nobody is born with a religion installed," Muslims believe different and are taught different to what you believe. ARE THEY ALL CONFUSED!!!? .
I couldn't care less what religion is big they are all the epitome of stupidity.
But we are talking muslims and islam at the moment and not "ALL religions" .So according to you all muslims are "stupid" and "islam" is stupid. I see. Ok. Hypocrite!
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The Great Donald Trump is the greatest President England never had.
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Well obviously nobody is born with a religion already installed, your post is redundant.
Are you not sick of being wrong a ALL of the time about EVERYTHING. Do you not EVER research anything before you open that great giant gaping pie hole trap of yours? Babies born into islamic families of islamic parenthood are "born muslim". Any muslim will tell you that.
The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra - as a Muslim -. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Nope he doesn't make them jew or christian regardless of the bullshite someone is floating around the internet about a lovely letter written to monks in Sini by Muhammad's own illiterate hand.
And let me tell ya:
"Islam set to become world's largest religion by 2075"
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@disgusted
And I said "they wish" to be recognised as a race.Says you, but that is meaningless.
But not just me, Nope. That will also be the All Party Parliamentary Group headed and chaired by none other than that treacherous traitor Anna Soubry MP.
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It never ceases to baffle me as to why it is Christians spout the phrase " free will" when ever they find themselves on the back foot of many religious arguments.
Ask a Christian why it was the biblical Adam chose to defy his god and his maker no less, and they simply throw at that one single phrase - free will - but never hang around long enough to explain what "free will" actually is in the biblical sense or when it was granted.
We get to Genesis 9 and god seems happy with his handy work, and his happiness is expressed again at Genesis 12 & again at 21,25 and up until god has one more look over his creation and it says at 31 "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good."
So we have humans created in the image of a god and god was very pleased and though all was "good" yet they both defy what god says. And no explanation as to why this happened. We hear that this pair of humans were somehow "beguiled" by a being known as the serpent. But if we backtrack just a few verses we can re-read that these humans were created in the image of god himself. and no mention whatsoever of them being granted anything resembling free will.. Or even a mention to them to beware of any being calling himself a reptile.
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@blamonkey
but in the US we are seeing a rising presence of people sympathetic to that worldview. Many join these racist causes as well, as illustrated by the numbers consistently showing a rise in white supremacist organizations
I understand you probably have other things to do so answer the following in your own time.It ok by me.
What do you believe has caused this sympathy and why is it do you believe has caused many to join "racist" causes and the showing of a rise in white supremacist organizations ?
Maybe not but can you explain what a "moderate muslim" actually is?I already gave you one:"How about a Muslim that doesn't try to kill you because of your ideology?"
Not really an answer is it. This is simply the "not all muslims" repeated rhetoric, which I have covered twice now, And you didn't address the whole question. I also asked as part of that question ;
(1)
Do, for instance ,your so called "moderate muslim" read the same Quran as the muslim extremist, or a different book altogether? Do extremist have the same god as the so called "moderate muslim"? Indeed, do the muslim extremist have a totally different ideology/ religion from the so called "moderate muslim"?
Given my Pew polls and the evidence that you provided me, it seems perfectly rational to suggest that there are plenty of these moderate Muslims in the world.
There are but see my question in bold at (1) above.
Here is an open letter signed by moderate Muslims who don't take their religion too far (http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/).
Yes I read the 49 names of the signatories and a very impressive 'ordinary' & and moderate bunch of learned professionals muslims they are. Now listen to this learned preacher preaching to ordinary "moderate muslims" and look for the show of hands.
A religion is made up of more than just a book. It is the people.
Now you are getting closer to my argument. Yes, the people who actually follow the written instructions in that book.
"When you hear Allah's messages disbelieved in and mocked at, sit not with them until they enter into some other talk." (4:140)"O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and do not let the hatred of a people incite you not to act with justice. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty." (5:8)"Allah does not forbid you concerning those people who do not fight you because of your religion, nor expel you from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly.. . . Allah forbids you only concerning those people who fight you for your religion, and drive you from your homes and help others to expel you, that you make friends of them." (60: 8,9)
I very good reason to believe all those verses are either contradicted by other verses or have simply been abrogated by islamic law. I will definitely get back to you on that.Please remind me if it appears that I have forgotten to do so. But just pick of the those academically "cheery picked" verses in the letter: #8 on the list. Their translation is disingenuous to a fault and they know it. tell me what was islam "defending" when it invaded Europe and the Caucuses and the Indian Subcontinent, your academically learned moderate muslims, they don't explain that do they?
Cherry picking is easy. Understanding a text as a whole is hard.
Yes. I was wondering when that old favourite was going to enter the conversation. But you see there is no getting away from the fact that these fluffy "cherry picked" verses are there, in the same book that the extremist muslim also reads along with over 100 verses instruction muslims (plural) to "fight until all religion is for Allah". It is all very well that a bunch 49 signatories have signed a letter, but they don't explain what is meant by these violent instructions to kill the unbeliever and why the muslim extremist have got them so wrong doe it? The letter simply "cherry picks" verses that appear to the contrary.
I don't think that suggesting that some people from a group are terrorists, but it seems that the OP, as well as some other people on this site, seem to condemn Muslims the same way they would condemn juggalos.
" not all muslims", they don't.
This is a better debate than it is a forum thread.
Yes. Surprising what can be achieved when a conversation is let to run uninterrupted by cries of "racist bigot" or "islamophobia" and accusations of "hate speech" or "inciting hatred" and "creating fear".
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@blamonkey
Islam represents more than its minority.
Yes I know. Islam represents anyone calling themselves muslim, does it not?
Why should the other followers of Muslim be labelled with the same "terrorist" label because of their religion? be labelled with the same "terrorist" label because of their religion?
I am not sure what you mean by - " should the other followers of Muslim"_ . but if you mean "all followers of islam" then I have already covered this in my earlier response. I do not believe anyone with an ounce of common sense is stupid enough to tar "all muslims" with the same brush. It is a ridiculous suggestion. Why are you making this circular? I have said, it only takes a few (the minority) to completely change the course of history. it took only a few planes and a few muslims to do just that, I don't believe the world is the same place since 9/11
This, of course, doesn't justify their behavior. It does suggest other motives besides religious ones.
maybe. But I can't agree, and the title " islamic State" gives this away and supports my argument. Not to mention the caption adorning the Islamic flag "“There is no god but Allah [God]. Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.” This will be the same Allah who tells his adherents:
Quran 3:56 - "Asto those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
So this threat to apostates is not just in the hear and now then, but in the here after, too, simply for the reason of not believing in him.
Quran 9:123 - You who have believed,fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.
if these verses mean nothing or something different to what they actually DO say, why do not the muslims of Islamic State, or Al Shabab,Taliban, Sipah Sahaba,Hizb ut-Tahrir or any of the 200+ islamic groups know, but the so called "moderate muslims" do know?
Condemnations of extremists from moderate Muslims is not a new thing .
Maybe not but can you explain what a "moderate muslim" actually is? Do, for instance ,your so called "moderate muslim" read the same Quran as the muslim extremist, or a different book altogether? Do extremist have the same god as the so called "moderate muslim"? Indeed, do the muslim extremist have a totally different ideology/ religion from the so called "moderate muslim"?
I don't know how long I am going to respond. Don't get me wrong, this conversation was riveting, but I see how easily this type of thread devolves into flame-war territory.
No problem.
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@Speedrace
It being a law doesn’t make it anymore right or wrong
I agree. But the law is the law and if this becomes law there will be a penalty for anyone who breaks it whether what you say about Islam is true & honest criticism or not.
We'll just have to wait and see.
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@Speedrace
No, it wouldn’t, it would only be wrong if you do it without any valid reason besides the fact that they’re Islamic/Muslim
Well you are not the lawmaker in this case so that is only your opinion, which may or may not be valid.They are already working on it my friend. Did you not read the link? If the muslim community get their way we'll have blasphemy laws reintroduced to England too.
We'll have to wait and see.
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