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@Analgesic.Spectre
--> @keithprosser Much the same as protestants and catholics throughut European history, I expect.People divide themselves into factions - it is one of our species' less endearing qualities. If we don't don't fight over the name if our gods we fight over 'nation', or the football team we support. You give me the impression you think tribalism - by whatever name - is something to be proud of. I don't. I think it's dumb.You know what's dumber?-: not engaging in tribalism. Whilst you're yacking away here with your big-brained individualism, all kinds of tribal groups are voting in and supporting people of their own group. They're getting Hispanics into power over in California. They're getting Blacks into power over in South Africa. They're getting Muslims into power in Lakemba, NSW (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_district_of_Lakemba). Say what you want about how "dumb" it is (nice, qualitative, clear language there, buddy), but it WORKS in politics. What you espouse DOESN'T work.
All true. Here in the Uk there have been "record numbers" of Muslim MP voted in around the country. This of course is because muslims simply want to be represented by 'one of their own'. This is something prosser will refuse recognise even with the figures shoved up his snooty jumped up self righteous snoz.
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@keithprosser
I don' suppose the recommendaion will prevent the debate being dominated by emtional rhetoric, selective qutation and half-truths though.
Read it again you buffoon. Do you understand it? Does it make sense to you? Can you explain it to us all? And above all do you agree and support it and wish it to be entered into the British criminal code as hate crime to critique Islam.
The definition reads:“Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness.”
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@keithprosser
My problem with you, Stephen, is that I don't believe you when you claim your problem is only with Islam, not at all with Musims.
I cannot help what you believe of me. I don't care what you believe of me. What you believe of me you have made your own problem.
You always present Islam was 'our' enremy, not the enemy of all mankind.
READ VERY SLOWLY!!!!! ISLAM- is the Enemy of anyone NOT muslim , you clown. You know this but try to avoid this fact.
You ask where the outrage is - well there's not a lot of outrage when a mosque is blown up in Basra or Karachi either.
Theres has been no outrage concerning the Christians and Christain churches in Syria and Nigerian and other countries, nope nothing from the western media or you.. But stop trying to conflate the issue here . I asked you where is the outrage from the UK muslim community when terror attacks happen here in the UK and you again have failed to answer me. You have NO FKN answers to anything I say. And this fact just pisses you right off so you attack me instead. You are a buffoon..
I don't care how many Christians have been killed by Muslims and vice versa.
I do.
I think we should add the two numbers together to see how dumb tribalism is.
Is that your first attempt at FKN "bridge building"?
And you have avoided this AGAIN!!!
Quran 51- You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact]allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed,he is [one] of them.
Let's hear your plan to build and cross that^^^^^^^^^^^^^ bridge. It's a very wide span.
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@keithprosser
As an avowed secularist I have a lot of problems with Islam.
I do too. I have reason to fear it. But I am not allowed to be afraid of it ( so I am an "islamophobe") and I am not allowed to say why I fear it ( because that is spreading hate) and that is because of people like you, prosser
Reigion is bad enough in the west, but it is even worse when it has real political power as it does in much of the Muslim world.
Oh FFS tell us something we don't know .
My problem with you, Stephen, is that I don't believe you when you claim your problem is only with Islam, not at all with Musims.
I cannot help what you believe of me. I don't care what you believe of me. What you believe of me you have made your own problem.
You always present Islam was 'our' enremy, not the enemy of all mankind.
READ VERY SLOWLY!!!!! ISLAM- is the Enemy of anyone NOT muslim , you clown. You know this but try to avoid this fact.
You ask where the outrage is - well there's not a lot of outrage when a mosque is blown up in Basra or Karachi either.
I did ask you that on another thread here>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1527 so I will re post your replies here on that thread also; but that said, theres has been no outrage concerning the Christian churches in Syria and Nigerian, nope nothing from the western media or you.. But stop trying to conflate the issue here . I asked you where is the outrage from the UK muslim community when terror attacks happen here in the UK and you again have failed to answer me. You have NO FKN answers to anything I say. And this fact just pisses you right off so you attack me instead. You are a buffoon..
We are, as as a species, parochial and tribal in out outlook. Nationalsm, racism, islamophobia, even sexism are all sides of the same thing,
So?
I don't care how many Christians have been killed by Muslims and vice versa.
I do.
I think we should add the two numbers together to see how dumb tribalism is.
Is that your first attempt at FKN "bridge building"
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@keithprosser
---> @Stephen Well now I am all ears. So apart from re defining words and inventing new words, how do you suggest "WE , make it work with Muslim jihadist" who want to behead every single person who refuses to submit to Allah?By building bridges with the majority of Muslims that don't.
Ok keith, How? Not once have I seen a mass of muslims taking to the streets after a islamic attack on the west and shout "not in my name". We do get the usual suspects lining up to "condemn" one muslim terror attack or another now and again such as ,the local dignitaries Mayor, local MP and councillor and Imam.
But where's the masses of muslims condemning the actions of these so called " very few muslims" who want to murder us? Where is the outrage from the muslim community when these attacks on the western world happen? FKN silence is what you get .
They were on the streets in a flash when Salman Rushdie wrote a novel and even today they are still "outraged" about it. Where were the muslims in the crowd and the Ariana Grande charity concert for the victims of the Manchester bombing that killed little girls and their mothers? You just refuse to accept it, that the MAJORITY of muslims do not care about the Kuffar as much as you need and want to then to.
So, your first bridge, where do you think that should be built? KEEPING IN MIND:
Quran 51- You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact]allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed,he is [one] of them.
Let's hear your plan to build and cross that^^^^^^^^^^^^^ bridge. It's a very wide span.
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@keithprosser
Low level islamophobia is - in my opinion
You cannot even define this non word. Although a PROPOSED definition has been put forward by the liberal left.
And as usual you have ignored the very sound and logical opposition put forward by a very well educated man ("of colour") Trevor Phillips OBE, who said
....the APPG’s report does not explain to what problem this definition is supposed to be the answer. There are two possibilities.
If we think Islamophobia is a problem suffered by all Muslims as a single group because of their “Muslimness”, it would be very hard to argue that this is about “racism”,since Muslims are a conspicuously multiracial group. They’re also multicultural –some are secular, some highly devout, many in-between, some drink alcohol,some wear head coverings, others don’t.
If on the other hand, we do think it is about “racism” then the APPG should have explained why it thinks that Muslims are a “race” and offered a new definition of a racial or ethnic group, alongside its definition of Islamophobia.
Otherwise, it is difficult to see why the existing anti-racism law and the definitions it encodes shouldn’t be applied in the sorts of cases they outline in the report".
--> @janesix Can you site some examples of Stephen using violence inciting language?--> @keithprosser For example, he quotes the Naz Shah retweet without giving it context.
That would be a NO then,and the vile racist tweet spoke for itself. She liked it, approved of it, agreed with it and passed it on. She then tried to tell the world it was a FKN "accident".
"Ms Shah’s comments come just days after she attacked fellow Labour MP Sarah Champion for speaking out about the Rotherham sex scandal in article".
Yes, Muslim MP Shah wanted to silence Sarah Champion from speaking the truth, just as YOUR LIBERAL proposed definition is designed to do.
Somehow we have to find away to make it work and with Jihdists blah blah blah .... like Stephen
You have given me a whole new thread with that undeliverable statement.
Well now I am all ears. So apart from re defining words and inventing new words, how do you suggest "WE , make it work with Muslim jihadist" who want to behead every single person who refuses to submit to Allah?
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@Outplayz
--> @Stephen
Really? So would you be so kind as to interpret what is meant by the verse Quran 51 above and this verse:Quran 8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and until the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
I would simply replace the word fight with debate.
Saying you would "replace" a word is not actually interpreting the verse now is it. But it is impossible to alter the last words of Allah "due to its divine nature" . All muslims understand this perfectly and this unfortunately is their dilema.
It's really fruitless bc the most violent parts of it i can interpret kindly bc
Wishful thinking. See above bold underlined.
i am a kind and non-violent person. But i fully understand there are people that are not kind and are violent. They would not read it how i do.
Maybe, but the word " debate" for instance does not appear in that intolerant and divisive verse Quran 8:39, does it?
peace basically came through war.
It does as a rule, but as I have pointed out already, Islamic jihad may abate now and then but it doesn't go away. Isis, it is said, has now been utterly defeated in Syria "it is no more" say the headlines. That would be nice if it was true. they though have been successful enough to move their operations to Europe. This now is going to be a massive issue for Europeans and the UK, as if it isn't already with over 20,000 returned jihadis on the islamic terrorist watch list.
Even if Christianity has gone through an enlightenment, there are many people that aren't very enlightened and can even misconstrue that text to do violence.
You have a valid point, but the difference is The Christ does not instruct his followers to go out into the world and rape and murder IN HIS NAME and there isn't anything that could be interpreted that way to my knowledge, but the quran does instruct its adherent to go out and kill for Allah and his goal I remind you: "until ALL religion is for Allah" Quran 8:39
I'm agnostic and think there is a chance there is a spiritual reality...
There may well be.
but i'm sure it's not the Abrahamic version.
Me too. And neither do Jews. they do not stone adulterers any more do they. the do not throw Homosexuals off roofs or burn them in cages anymore do they?
They are all flawed and clearly written by humans which is why they have the potential to make other humans violent.
They are. But be careful saying Allah's word "is flawed".
How can fallible humans write a perfect text of beliefs? They can't... bc they are greedy, power hungry, etc.
Neigh on impossible, I would say. But I will stress ,The New Testament does not promote violence towards anyone who doesn't accept Jesus. For some reason Christians simply like to ignore the fact that Jesus was a Jew: king of the JEWS, in fact, not Christians. . Even the Romans recognised this.
How do they know a few generations down, those humans don't say "you're enlightenment is against god, you are interpreting incorrectly."
Well they say that now don't they. Even you have suggest this yourself when bring up "interpretation".
religion ....It scares me in more than just one way.
Some (keith prosser and co) would call you religiophobic for that statement . But, islam scares me and with good reason but they call me an "islamophobe" , and throw in "racist bigot" now and again. They just do not want me to fear Islam, but give me absolutely no reason not to. That is the type of apologist that I and others like me are up against.
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@disgusted
Don't look now but the OT is part of the bible and Yahweh is first created in that book. .
I simply want you, to show me, where it is in the bible - the OT or the NT - that shows or tells of "the creation of Yahweh"? as you say.
Come on! Hurry up!!
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@keithprosser
I can believe you've never done any physical violence.
I have never had cause to keith. Let's hope the importation of this barbaric ideology doesn't ever drive a peaceful person like me to do so. eh.
You just use lanuage designed to incite others to violence.
Such as?
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@Swagnarok
Unfortunately the likes of al-Baghdadi had long escaped,
No worries. He will be given asylum in Great Britain - usually England - as a returning jihadi where he will be welcomed, with free money, a free house free from council tax. Free food on the table and all his relatives going back generations will be welcomed with open arms and all at the expense of the British taxpayer. And he will be free to spread his hate of white western infidels and kufars.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
We should let our kids, kids deal with it.
Well believing some left wing liberal idea of "re defining" words will make the problem disappear simply doesn't cut it. It will be left to our children to define what they are. They are already being taught to hate themselves for being white by people such as keithprosser.
I notice that the great Islamic apologist himself hasn't commented on whether or not he agrees with this left wing liberal crackpot idea. No, he would rather use ad hominem and tell me he hates me for relaying what it is his lefty liberal friends have decided and will try to force into law. . He wants people like me gaged for criticizing an ideology. He wants criticism of an ideology made a crime of racial hate speech.
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@keithprosser
I am your enemy because I think you are a hater,
Your entitled to that unfounded opinion.
You are not all that different from a Jihadist,
Jihadist? You mean, no different from those who carry out the instructions written in the quran? I have never hit anyone since my junior school days. I haven't burned anyone alive, I haven't raped anyone, I haven't blown anyone up, I haven't shot anyone and I didn't marry a FKN six year old and I haven't raped the wife of a man I had just beheaded as did the perfect prophet . But according to you, I am not all that different from a muslim Jihadist.
Don't make me laugh. You have no answers so resort to ad hominem.
Like I have said about you many times now, you would rather watch your children burn rather than admit you could ever be wrong or misguided.
How's this for Intolerance, division and "HATE"?
Quran 51- You, who havebelieved, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact]allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed,he is [one] of them.
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@Alec
What is hate speech?
It is what any police officer, Magistrate or Judge says it is, on any given day. This is one where the goal posts can be moved anywhere and in any direction and at any given time a FKN snowflake decides some one has upset, him,her or both at the same time such as a person with both balls and tits . OR when anyone believes they have heard hate speech and are offended on someone else's behalf..
"A devout Catholic and mother is the subject of a five-month police investigation - after she was accused of calling a transgender woman a 'he' on Twitter".
She says; " I don't know what I am suspected to have done. The only thing I can think of is that I may have referred to a 23-year-old transgender woman as someone's "son".
do NOT laugh!!!!
"She added the officer said her tweets had 'misgendered' an individual by using the wrong pronoun, which could be an offence under the Malicious Communications Act" .
Sentences for those found guilty under this act can be as long as two years.
I hope this helps.
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The OT. Yahweh is never mentioned in any writings prior.
prior to what? AND that wasn't my question was it . Why are you dodging what I have asked you about your own FKN statement.
You have said :
Don't look now but the OT is part of the bible and Yahweh is first created in that book. .
I simply want you, to show me, where it is in the bible that shows or tells of "the creation of Yahweh"? as you say.
Come on! Hurry up!!
You are so quick and insistant to ask others for "evidence" or "citations" but are just incapable of producing any of your own to support your own bullshit. You are a FKN hypcrite and a joke
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@disgusted
No. My time would be wasted doing your fkn home work for you.Produce these extra biblical and extra quranic that predate those books.
Don't look now but the OT is part of the bible and Yahweh is first created in that book. .
Could you point out to me where the OT shows the creation of Yahweh?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
I wonder what a Sunni thinks of a Shia and vice versa?
That was the first question that came to my mind . My second question was to I wonder how will the left wing Islam apologists square my first question.
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@disgusted
Don't look now but the OT is part of the bible and Yahweh is first created in that book. .
Could you point out to me where the OT shows the creation of Yahweh?
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@disgusted
Without the bible and the quran these gods would not exist in the awareness of humans.
Nonsense. There is extra Biblical and Quranic literature on both these ideologies; that is to say outside of both the books you refer to.. Do some FKN homework before you post and you may just get some decent responses instead of people just dismissing you as a troll and a crank.
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@keithprosser
I will concede that a constant diet of news stories about terrorist atrocities and criminal activity committed by Muslims ... blah blah blah
Yes and I bet it breaks your FKN heart. "More than 750 British Muslim organisations". You don't say!? "Teachers could be forced to allow full-face veils to be worn in classrooms if ministers accept a new definition of Islamophobia, one of the country’s leading equality campaigners has warned".
New definition!!!? There was never an old one.
What these leftist liberal apologist such as yourself haven't stopped to realise is that by defining Islamophobia as a form of racism or Muslims as a "race" would actually make life harder for them instead of helping and/ OR
According to the former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission Trevor Phillips OBE (who is "of colour") said that it would “reduce the lives of British Muslim to the status of perpetual victims and pawns in some wider battle”.
Trevor Philips OBE who wrote the forward for DefiningIslamophobia states at page Five here >>https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Defining-Islamophobia.pdf
"It is therefore all the more puzzling that the All Party Parliamentary Groupshould call for the government to adopt a definition of Islamophobia as “rootedin racism” and “a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness orperceived Muslimness” – a definition of Islamophobia which, in their own words,“racialises” Islam. Yet their report even quotes the distinguished Professor TariqModood condemning such racialisation as a “specific process” thatcharacterises Islamophobia.Unfortunately, the APPG’s confused report Islamophobia Defined demonstratesthat its authors appear to understand neither the concept of racism nor themeaning of Islamophobia. As Policy Exchange’s Research Note explains, despitethe undoubted good intentions of MPs on the committee, the adoption of thisdefinition would be a grave mistake, undoing much of the good work tointegrate Muslim communities during the past quarter century or so. The MPswho have put their names to this report have proud records of concern for theneeds of minorities. But I fear that they have been persuaded to recommend acourse that far from supporting the integration of British Muslims will isolatethem and make them the object of continuing hostility.My biggest concern is that instead of protecting Muslims, defining Islamophobia".
Trevor Phillips OBE, this well educated and Honoured author "of colour" must be a racist and a bigoted "Islamophobe". To not agree in the slightest with these left wing liberals such as yourself , eh keith.
And here is something for the ISLAM apologists to think about:
"If the unequal treatment of people is to be tackled – as it should be with greatdetermination – we need to be clear about what we think is producing it. To putthis another way, the APPG’s report does not explain to what problem thisdefinition is supposed to be the answer. There are two possibilities.
If we thinkIslamophobia is a problem suffered by all Muslims as a single group because oftheir “Muslimness”, it would be very hard to argue that this is about “racism”,since Muslims are a conspicuously multiracial group. They’re also multicultural –some are secular, some highly devout, many in-between, some drink alcohol,some wear head coverings, others don’t.
If on the other hand, we do think it is about “racism” then the APPG should haveexplained why it thinks that Muslims are a “race” and offered a new definition ofa racial or ethnic group, alongside its definition of Islamophobia. Otherwise, it isdifficult to see why the existing anti-racism law and the definitions it encodesshouldn’t be applied in the sorts of cases they outline in the report".
I wonder what kind of trouble this is going to cause the Shiite and Sunni. Are Shiites going to claim to be a "race" above all others ?
Will the Sunnis now believe themselves to be above the Shiites and the Shiites of a lower class of "animal" like many muslims believe the unbeliever to be?
This bullshite has simple added to the already strained relationship between Western culture and the 7th century culture of the Islamic east. Not to mention that this will close down ANY discussion of Islam or criticism.
Congratulations you left wing liberal apologists, you have all agree to stoke the fires of intolerance and division.
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@disgusted
Umm yes she does look
You can't read can you?
She cannot explain WHY so called "islamophobia" has risen OR WHY the far right seem to be getting more support.
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@disgusted
--> @Tradesecret But even God answers questions put to him at times.
Got any examples?
Of course he has, probably thousands of examples. But he will have absolutely ZERO evidence to back up his claims of god answering him.
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As I predicted sometime ago, the loony LIBERAL left wing tossers have finally come up with a definition for the made up silly word -
ISLAMOPHOBIA..
This of course, is just another exorcise in ‘shut your mouth and do not criticise an ideology; Islam, because it is now a CRIMINAL offence’/hate crime.
They are now pressing this to be the official definition.
I said this was coming years ago.
I have pointed out many times on this forum the fact that Islam is not a race and that a phobic person is a person having or involving an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
I don’t consider my own fears of Islam to be irrational, in fact the actions of Muslims (that is more than one) and the words of the Quran give me many very RATIONAL reasons to fear this ideology.
The definition reads:“Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness.”
Nope, me neither.
This “definition” was apparently decided upon after a six-month consultation with academics,(un-named), lawyers, (un-named), elected officials, ( un-named), activists,(un-named),campaigners, (un-named) and [muslim] communities (un-named) and Muslim organisations << speaks for itself.
Naz Shah, the Muslim Labour MP for Bradford West and a shadow minister for women and equalities, said all political parties should adopt the definition. Yes, Naz Shah, she it is who told the victims of Muslim rapegangs in Rotherham to “ shut their mouths for the sake of diversity”. I think she meant for the sake of Muslim rapist.
Naz Shah goes on:
“This could not be more urgent, while Islamophobia has been rising in our society and across the world,and support for the far right and their extremist white supremacist views is growing,” she said.
She doesn’t actually say why she believes “islamophobia has been rising” or what has caused its rise, only to say:
"many politicians have actively fuelled it, from the Conservatives’ overtly Islamophobic campaign against Sadiq Khan becoming [muslim] mayor in 2016 to Boris Johnson’s vile comments about Muslim women. << Rude maybe but IT- a single comment- wasn't "vile" and nowhere near as "vile" as her elling rape victims to shut up about their rapes at the hands of muslims.No, what Johnson spoke of, was muslim women looking like "letter boxes".
There are of course more honest and factual reasons for the rise in supposed “islamophobia”.
One only has to research – Islamic terrors over the last 10 years and hey presto!, you have the perfect, factual and honest answer.
Start here>>
Naz Shah goes further:
“We must work together to rid your country of this evil, starting by urging widespread adoption of this definitionso we can create deeper understanding and awareness at every level of our society.”
If I didn't know any better,I would say she was referring to Islam.
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@disgusted
Irrelevant be thy name.
And there was me thinking that you would be pleased that you were right for once.
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@Yassine
- Stephen, have you ever been in a Muslim country?
Yes.
I invite you to come visit, maybe we can discuss over a cup of tea.
No
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@disgusted
But of course anyone who agrees with Nazism and Fascism is in need of serious medical intervention.
"Nazi officials saw Islam as a powerful force with the same enemies as Germany: the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and the Jews. Islam and Nazi Germany’s War is the first comprehensive account of Berlin’s remarkably ambitious attempts to build an alliance with the Islamic world".
"The relationship between Nazi Germany (1933–1945) and the leadership of the Arab world encompassed contempt, propaganda, collaboration and in some instances emulation.[1] Cooperative political and military relationships were founded on shared hostilities toward common enemies, such as British and French imperialism and colonialism,[1] communism, and Zionism.[1] Another key foundation of this collaboration was the anti-semitism of the Nazis, which was admired by some Arab and Muslim leaders, most notably Hajj Amin al-Husayni (see Antisemitism in Islam). In public and private, Hitler and Himmlermade warm statements about Islam as a religion and political ideology, describing it as a more disciplined, militaristic, political, and practical form of religion than Christianity, and commending what they perceived to be Muhammad's skill in politics and military" leadership.
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@Tradesecret
In other words, you don't know.
I never once suggested I did know. But it is quite apparent that you do not know a question when it is asked and the reason questions are asked. I asked because I don't know, you FKN idiot.
But even God answers questions put to him at times.
He's never answered one of mine, and like god, neither have you.
And why ONLY "at times" and not all the time?
Next time you ask your god a question pose him this one. Why create anything at all in the FKN first place?
questions are obviously part of the means of debate
They are, indeed debates are usually started with a question as in this case. But you believing that responding with a question of your own is somehow answering the primary question, then you are in the wrong place, you clown.
run your petty little indoctrination class.
Oh FFS give over you clown. I wouldn't bother even trying to "indoctrinate" anyone. I ask questions and give my opinion and interpretations . Just as you do.
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@Outplayz
Firstly, you can't say there is "no" good parts in the Koran.
There are, but what one should realise is that "the good parts" apply to Muslims ONLY. i.e how to treat your neighbour with honesty, kindness and politeness, etc,etc. But >>>>
Look>> Quran 51- You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact]allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed,he is [one] of them.
The intolerance of other faiths in the verse above shows very clear hatred, urging followers of Islam not to make friends with the (dirty) Kuffar,_ the nonbeliever.
It's a book of morals that even shares some with the other Abrahamic faiths.
I don't agree and I won't bother you for chapters & verses to support what you say. I have said, anything that reads as "good parts" or "moralistic" only applies to those of the muslim faith.
When it comes to the bad stuff, it all comes down to who is interpreting it.
Really? So would you be so kind as to interpret what is meant by the verse Quran 51 above and this verse:
Quran 8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and until the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
And fight them until there is no fitnah and until the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
If it says "stone your wife bc she cheated on you" or something... i would take that as a metaphor not literal. I would tell my wife it feels like i want to stone you bc you cheated on me... key being that's how it makes me feel vs. literally doing it.
Well maybe a civilised person, or a Western person would interpret it as such but there millions of the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world who will not agree with your interpretation and you know it.
With that said, there is also very dangerous text in the Koran.
Which are instructions to murder, rape, convert and enslave anyone who is not a muslim.
Especially those relating to leaving the faith.
I am glad you mentioned this. There is an Iranian apostate (he converted to Christianity) who has been seeking asylum in the U.K. since 2016. He has been refused by the BRITISH HOME OFFICE on the grounds the Christianity is not a religion of peace. The penalty for this "religious crime" is death.
The UK also has refused a CHRISTIAN Pakistani woman - Asia Abibi refuge here in the UK - after serving 8 years in prison for blasphemy. After serving 8 years was eventually found not guilty and released but this hasn't stopped a baying muslim mob wanting her death and the death of all her relatives. This is how the blasphemy laws in islam are "interpreted". The reason our Prime Minister gave for the refusal was - "the risk of raising tension among the UK's muslim communities".
They will forever kill each other if one group to the next thinks the other group is a traitor and infidel.
And this is a point that all muslim apologist simply will not admit. And the penalty for apostasy is death and the quran calls for the death of all infidels..
There are of course a lot of other parts of the Koran i don't enjoy reading. Only a person really really trying to make it peaceful and can think outside the box can.
That someone sounds to me like he would have to stretch the truth a very very long way. And muslims and their apologists do this often.
just reading it as a normal person that can't see grey areas it's very dangerous text.
It is an EXTREMELY dangerous text, and I am pleased that you acknowledge that. and that is my WHOLE point. I am not attacking muslims as many here like to say and believe I am (prosser)
It is islam that I have a problem with.
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@ludofl3x
I can only picture a holy high five and Jesus saying "I told you playa, what is UUUUUUPPPPP! Welcome to paradise homes!"
Ok, and then what?
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@Outplayz
But i do think there religious text is primarily the catalyst for their more violent acts.
Sorry Outplayz, I misread you when you wrote the above and I replied:
"Then you do not understand the makeup of this vile ideology. Muslims will and do live and die to achieve the ultimate goal of Islam. These are facts".
My reply should have been that you are quite correct. It is the quran that millions of the 1.5 billion adherents, listen to and take as the word, the very last word - of Allah. Included in these texts is the actions of Jihad of which there are over 100 verses verses encouraging and instructing violence against the unbeliever who will not "submit " to Islam. This verse makes it quite plain what they - muslims - should do to achieve Islams goal.
Quran 8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
Of course not all muslims will act upon these words but hundreds of thousands of the 1.5 billion muslim adherents will and do and have.
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@Outplayz
You are pretty good at taking me out of context.
I apologise. It is truly not intentional. Unfortunately, such is the nature of internet forums where without facial expression and emphasis of the voice it is at times so easy for this to happen.
Also, it's one goal not shared by all Muslims
I agree, there simply must be many muslims who care not what is written in the quran , have never read the quran and aren't even religious. Just as there are many Christians (those christened at birth) who do not follow the faith or have read the bible and are not religious in the slightest. But I won't bore you with the in's and out's of Islam.
But let me tell you, not all Germans were Nazis. Most Germans were peaceful. No Nazis were in the minority, but it didn't stop this minority causing the deaths of 60 MILLION! men women and children of which 14 million died in death camps. So my point is that for those who do not share the common goal, those being the peaceful, are irrelevant.
they are following the good part of the Koran
Which is?
(1)The main point your making is why doesn't the media cover these things.
It is, and that Western MSM seem to be in FKN denial that muslims do not do anything at all to cause such vile retaliation against innocents, from a single manic "right wing" individual. Our world leaders insist Islam is a religion of peace when it clearly is not.
Some home truths about the Christchurch mosque New Zealand.
"In 2013 two Jihadis Were killed in an U.S led airstrike in the Yemen. 2014 it was reported that one of the parents claimed that her son and two friends were radicalised by Muslim Extremist in the Christchurch Al Noor Mosque. .
After spending a lot of time at the mosque, themen travelled to Yemen and trained alongside the Charlie Hebdo terrorists". - We have to note here that this was reported back in 2014 almost five years BEFORE this terrible and vile slaughter of innocence at Al Noor.
And no one did a thing about it. It isn’t as if the parents had just recently come out and said this in the wake of the NZ attack. MSM did not mention the background of this Christchurch Al Noor mosque in the wake of this attack. That would have been balanced.
A Kiwi lad's death by drone
It has alsobeen discovered that one occasion an Indonesian Muslim Sheik was brought tothat same mosque to preach Violent Islamic Jihad to the local ChristchurchMuslim community. .
“A mosque attendee was quoted as saying that "a visiting speaker from Indonesia talked about violent jihad and plenty shared his views, although mosque leaders denied radical teaching took place".
Hate Preaching and radicalisation at a holy Mosque!? Never! Well you can imagine my shock!
(2) A lot people don't understand what going on over there;
Dare I say it but that is a large assumption on your part.
(3)that's just not how the media works;
No they operate with deceit and denial and bias when it comes to Islam/muslims.
(4)The media can't cover everything... there is only so much time they have to show things and so many people they have to cover / write it;
Lame excuse. What MSM practice is extremely clear bias. It is never ever balanced when it comes to Islam and islamic terror. these are facts and as I have already pointed out, MSM did not mention the background of this Christchurch Al Noor mosque in the wake of this attack. That would have been balanced.
. Like "a guy uses an AR 15 to kill churchgoers in NZ" then headline a few days later "NZ prime minister (or whatever he's called) says he will ban 'military style weapons' after shooting." Sounds pretty selective and perfectly fit in the agenda now doesn't it...
Yes this is called addressing the secondary problem when it is the first that has to be addressed but never is. They have all turned into cowards since the Charlie Hebdo massacre by muslims. They were quick to give some of the reasons behind this guys attack on this mosque but never ever do they admit or even ask why muslims murder for Islam.
Please watch this when you have five minutes.
Douglas Murray on governments dealing with the secondary problem
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@Tradesecret
I wonder what you are getting at with this question.
Stop replying to my questions with questions of your own. This is a typical practice that many believers use when they are on the back foot and cannot answer what should be a simply question for them - the devout faithful Christian. If you don't have an answer - which you clearly do not - then leave it to those who should know and stop cluttering up a thread with opinions and questions of your own.It a simple enough question:
Christian has walked in the way of god all his life ( like Zacharias) and has received his reward , he entered into "Paradise", AS IN:>>
Luke 23:43 Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
What then?
Surely you are not asking people to try and particularise the rest of eternity?
No. I have made it very clear what it is I am asking. It is obviously a far too difficult question for you.
My view is quite general. I think eternity is eternal.........
Nothing to do with this thread.
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@keithprosser
there are few places in the world - if any - where a woman is safe from male predation and religion is not a factor
More apologetics from someone who refuses to face facts. Listen Prosser, the muslim rapists and murderers of these two young women made it very clear why they Raped, Murdered, Beheaded and Filmed this atrocious act. Men in the gruesome clip can be heard shouting 'it's Allah's will and pledging their allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi the leader of the ISLAMIC CALIPHATE
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@Yassine
I wonder why is it that all these years only two girls were killed,
Because they were white Kuffar females of course, Their murders and beheadings were " allah's will". Yes! Allah, YOUR GOD! delivered these poor white western women into the hands of righteous followers of Allah, Islam and the quran, they simply followed his - Allah's - instructions as written down. These MUSLIM rapists , murdering FILM MAKERS made that quite fkn clear.
who are stupid enough to go hiking in the mountains alone at night, especially in a foreign country.
I agree, but you missed out the word MUSLIM. So let me correct that omission for you:
"who are stupid enough to go hiking in the mountains alone at night, especially in a MUSLIM foreign country".
You ask: "Why were they "stupid to to go hiking in the mountains alone in a foreign country".
ANSWER
Because Western governments insist that Islam is a religion of peace and that they - these young women - would have nothing to fear about Muslims or ISLAM, you dozy bellend!
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Polythene witcheverStephen gets mad when I say atheist are ok with theists dying then rants he doesn't care Muslims died
I didn't say that at all, you dozy mare. What I will, and have said many time is that - I don't care about MUSLIMS butchering, raping and murdering other MUSLIMS. That is their business not mine OR YOURS .. If Shiites want to butcher Sunnis and Sunnis want to butcher Shiites, THAT IS THEIR AFFAIR, NOT MINE OR YOURS YOU STUPID ILLITERATE WITCH.,
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Paradise obviously (well in my view) is a reference to the garden of Eden. It was where God dwelled on earth in the beginning.
Possibly. but I belive it a reference to the original state of man when first placed into the garden ( he was created somewhere else). I have already hinted at this possibility at post 7 above where I stated:
Stephen: When researching the word paradise, one will discover it simply means "garden" a "walled garden" to be precise.. This is interesting because when one reads the story of the crucifixion - of which there appears to be two versions in the NT - one version has the women peering over a wall into a private garden owned by a secret rich disciple and watching it all play out.
But this does not answered the question. What then?
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@Outplayz
It's similar to Christianity.
No it isn't nothing like Christianity. Nowhere will you read in the Christian New Testament the Christ instructing his followers to go out into the world and rape, butcher, maim and murder people IN HIS NAME for not being Christian as does the Muslim quran.
Imagine the Christians going to war.
They have been to war in the past, But "religion" was not the a reason used to justify those wars. WWI & WWII had nothing to do with religion. Here in the U.K there have bee sectarian conflict in Ireland where there seems to be an uneasy peace at last. And there is still sectarian animosities in Scotland , but rarely does it spill over into violence except now and again on the football terraces.
The Mormons going to war with the Catholics, the Catholics with other Christians, on and on.
That is because of the word - civilised.
But i do think there religious text is primarily the catalyst for their more violent acts.
Then you do not understand the makeup of this vile ideology. Muslims will and do live and die to achieve the ultimate goal of Islam. These are facts.
In March 1997 Peter Arnett interviews bin Laden, who says the goal of jihad is to exalt God’s word (the Quran) to the heights, in other words, until the message of his Holy Book goes around the world.
Quran 8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
Quran 51- You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact]allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed,he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
Jihad has never stopped. It may have abated for a while now and again, but it has never gone away. The worst thing that ever happened to reignite Islamic jihad against the west was Russia losing to Afghanistan. Once that conflict was over, muslims around the world believed then that it was Allah's will, that had given them a "great victory" a "super power" and that they were now were capable of taking on the "great satan" itself: the USA. They, led by bIn Laden couldn't have been more misguided. What the Russians couldn't do in ten years the Americans did in just ten short weeks.
But I have to keep reiterating this thread is concerned with the bias of western media when it come to Muslims and Islam.
Two young Scandinavian girls were butchered and one beheaded because it was "Allah's will" and it hardly got a mention here in the U.K.
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@Greyparrot
What is hilarious is the recent surge among radical left millenials to promote tribalism through indoctrinated critical race theory and intersectionality. The media elites are about to go to war with the radical left now to suppress their tribalistic culture. It's going to be glorious. Thank you Trump for speeding the process up.
10/10.
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@keithprosser
Lee Rigby
Was murdered and nearly beheaded by Muslims: Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale as they quoted verses the Quran. Yes, that wonderful instruction manual inciting murder of anyone not Muslim.
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@keithprosser
You seem amibivalent whether the sunni/shia conflict is religious or secular.
That is because some call ISLAM a "religion" and I do not, because it is nothing more than a bad idology You can call it tribal "religion" . It all comes to one thing. The difference of opinion among MUSLIMS has deadly consequences .Muslims are butchering each other over what THEY may call a religious issue. I hope that clears that up.
Just to remind you of the title of this thread:
Where Is The Outrage? Where is the Western Media?
No Keith, the violence I am concerned about - and the one you know full well that I am talking about - is the violence committed by muslims against those who do not accept (submit) to Allah and his so called prophet and who do this through terror. I don't care about Muslim on muslim violence that is for them to sort out.
Christians world wide are the most persecuted, killed and ethnically cleansed religious group on the planet. So far in 2019 there have been 453 terror attacks BY MUSLIMS in which 1,956 people have been murdered.
4,305 Christians were murdered by muslims BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH in 2018 alone!
And these atrocities committed by muslims terrorist against christians go largely unreported by western mainstream media.
The fate of the Rohingya muslims was all over the western world for weeks as will this NZ atrocity.
But look how quick they are putting the very recent Netherlands Utrecht tram shooting by a Turk on the back burner. Funny how this came on the back of Erdogan's damnation of the west, no doubt an apologist such as yourself will simply call this a coincidence. No out pourning for the dead from across the world for these white westerners. Almost silence on by the western media.
You know full well i am right , because you're far too much of an apologetic coward to even admit it.
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@Castin
I think this is supposed to be like asking "What's the point of happiness?"
No. I would have asked - ' what is the point of happiness' if that is what I wanted to ask, Castin, my old mate.
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@Outplayz
Yassine makes good points.
He has never made a "good" point. He simply tells fkn lies and certainly doesn't accept facts even from Islamic muslim sources unless they agree with him.
I don't think there is outrage bc then we would have to be outraged everyday...
That will be in the Islamic sphere of things. Muslims can even get outraged and violent over cartoons and novels, you know.
Plus, we don't understand what's going on in countries that are fighting among themselves.
That is an opinion and a poor one at that. I have explained why Shites and Sunni MUSLIMS are forever butchering each other in other countries and pretty regular. If they wish to butcher one another over a ISLAMIC "religious" issue then who is the west to interfere. One of Yassines complaints is he blames western interference. I notice he ignores western intervention when it saves hundreds of thousands of Muslims. Indeed he is very selective with his opinion of western foreign policy. He ignores the intervention in Kosovo ( two of my sons served there) where the west (rightly) saved the lives of countless MUSLIMS from Serbian ethnic cleansing. There is no mention of the first Gulf War where, thanks to US-led intervention, Kuwaiti MUSLIMS were spared the horrors of a protracted Iraqi occupation.
They need to figure that crap out.
They do. One side has to give in and relinquish "religious" authority that is impossible to relinquish in the case of the secular conflict of Shites and Sunni. Quite frankly, I don't give a shite or a Sunni if they want to butcher one another. It is THEIR business, not mine.
The point I am making with this thread is the fact that Western media are bias when it comes to reporting on these violent acts.
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@keithprosser
As you point out most of the victims of muslim violence are Muslims.
Indeed as I have said this would be secular conflict among muslims who cannot make their minds up who should be top dog, i.e. should it be the bloodline of Muhammad, or the bloodline of his second in command. that is one for the muslims to sort out and fight over.
No Keith, the violence I am concerned about - and the one you know full well that I am talking about - is the violence committed by muslims against those who do not accept (submit) Allah and his so called prophet and who do this through terror.
Shites have it that the muhammad's cousin and son-in-law, Ali, was his truthful successor but he was cheated when the top position was handed to those the Sunnis call the four “Rightfully Guided Caliphs” — Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman and, finally, Ali. Sunnis are the majority across the Islamic world.
So again I will repeat:
Christians world wide are the most persecuted, killed and ethnically cleansed religious group on the planet. So far in 2019 there have been 453 terror attacks BY MUSLIMS in which 1,956 people have been murdered.
4,305 Christians were murdered by muslims BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH in 2018 alone!
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@EtrnlVw
Ever thought about addressing Theists and not just Christians?
It is only the Christian idea that I am interested in on this thread. Although I was christened I have never be a practicing Christian. but I have studied the Christian religion very closely for over 40 years. I don't believe the scriptures are telling the whole truth. In fact I believe the gospel writers are hiding a bigger story to the point of outright lying. I am convinced there is another story, a fuller story beneath the surface of these gospel stories.
there is more to the afterlife than just what Christianity posits
There may well be and its nice to hear it. . Please feel free to start a thread and I will gladly read with what you have to say. Meanwhile this thread is about what happened once the Christian faithful reach "paradise"
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@Outplayz
In regards to the then what? I don't know
And neither do the faithful Christians going by the zero responses to a question that they , after 2,000 years of biblical study should have no problem answering.
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@keithprosser
As you point out most of the victims of muslim violence are Muslims.
This would be Shite V Sunni MUSLIMS who both follow instructions written in Quran. That is muslim manual of hate and death.
I think the degree to which 'Islamism' (for want of a better word - I am open to suggestions!)
No your not. This is yet again another left wing liberal invention. People are too scared to use the word Islam so they use the word Islamism. They"re too scared to use the word Muslim so they use the word Islamist. They are afraid of upsetting and "offending" FKN muslims.. It is a word often used more out of cowardice.
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YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN
You really are a boring tit. It is a stone cold fact that muslims have been murdering and raping and butchering it's way across the globe and forcing people to convert to Islam by the sword for centuries and well before there was ever a British Empire or a United States of America. . Get used to it, you belong to and support a violent death cult that doesn't think twice about RAPING and then BEHEADING two white Scandinavian young women "because allah willed it" and because "they were enemies of allah". Religion of peace my arse!
"One of the women was found inside the pair's brightly colored tent. The other, who had been beheaded, was found a short distance away. Both had been mutilated. Investigators say they were both sexually assaulted".
It wasn't good enough that these Muslim who follow the teaching of the "holy quran" had raped and murdered these young white western girls and beheaded one of them, No, they filmed the atrocity for prosperity.
'It's Allah's will': Fanatics branded two Scandinavian women the 'enemies of God' as they filmed themselves decapitating one of the tourists in Morocco – 'and posted video pledging allegiance to ISIS'
Go and try to convince some other mug that your ideology is a "peaceful religion". Your wasting your time trying to convince me. There are plenty of apologist on the forum who simply can't accept the facts and who will gladly listen and watch you spout your apologetic bullshit just so they can repeat it to some other mug who knows nothing about this barbaric Islamic ideology.
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@Yassine
This was a year ago, from a Christian source... not even a news source.
So? This isn't old news: this massacre happened just day before CHristchurch NZ and no one gives a FK NOTE THE DATE , you clown:
"Muslims Murder More Than 30 Nigerian Christians, Torch Church in Brutal Attack"03-04-2019
"Muslims murdered more than 30 Christians in Nigeria last week. This is just the latest account of systematic Islamic violence towards Christ-followers in that country. Reports that Fulani [muslim] herdsmen assaulted the Christians around 4 a.m. in Karamar village in the Maro district of Kajuru. The [Muslim] herdsman reportedly set fire to several houses and a church. The muslim terrorists then sporadically shot at families trying to escape the blaze, killing at least 28 people".
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Atheists should rejoice at the death of theists. If you're not you are doing it wrong.
Your a fkn disgrace
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The Illiterate polyester whichever, has this to say about the slaughter of CHRISTIANS by MUSLIMS:
It's not that they were just Christians
"Muslims Murder More Than 30 Nigerian Christians, Torch Church in Brutal Attack".03-04-2019
You must have missed the words "Christian" and "Church" you silly cow. And this was just days before the Christchurch atrocity.
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@Yassine
This was a year ago, from a Christian source... not even a news source
That's my point you brain dead clown. Nothing was reported in the MAINSTREAM MEDIA in the West. You and the Western MSM have also
conveniently ignored this:
"Hate speech at Auckland Mosque by Hormoz Ghahremani of Iranian Embassy"
AND this just DAYS before Christchurch
27 Jan On the Philippine Island of Jolo two Muslims exploded two bombs in the Christian Cathedral killing over 20 Christian and injuring over 100
Barley a mention and quickly taken from the headlines. The double standard of Wester MSM is what is "bias" you clown. Only when Muslims are attacked do we see and hear the outcry from Western MSM.
And muslims were at it again just days before Christchurch NZ: NOTE THE DATE YOU ABSOLUTE CLOWN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>03-04-2019<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Radical Muslims Murder More Than 30 Nigerian Christians, Torch Church in Brutal Attack.
03-04-2019
Muslims have murdered more people - including THOUSANDS of Christians in the last 18 months alone. Deny this fact as much as you like. but it won't change the fact that it is MUSLIMS who are committing carnage on a regular base than any other ideology.
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