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@keithprosser
i deleted them somehow!
MY ARSE!
As you say you didn't send them, I only really recall they were from a member it was in a spat with at the time (ie a couple of days go).
But you don't remember who? It didn't stop you linking them to me did it.
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@keithprosser
I HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN. So how did you delete your messages?
--> @StephenReplyYou sent me some messages. I Deleted them unread as I always do whoever they are from. I don't do'friends' or debates either. i just read and write posts.
I would like to know how you deleted them. I asked a mod not so long ago how i delete a ever filling message box and why there was no delete facility. HERE, READ FOR YOURSELF!!
09.26.2018 04:02PM
I feel the site is a bit short on 'how to' information, unless I simply cannot find it. Such, how to delete mail in my post box. Could you point me in the right direction please?
09.26.2018 04:08 PM
This is where a lot of the how-to information can be found: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/346
09.26.2018 04:08PM
That said, itis not, to my knowledge, possible to delete messages like these.
09.26.201804:17PM
I find that very odd. Most forums have a facility to delete an over spilling personal mailbox. maybe it's something the forum owner designer may want to consider?
09.26.201804:18 PM
Thank you any way.
I Haven't sent you a single message since the day I arrived on the forum. They certainly were not from ME!!!!! You're Either lying or mistaken. It is a shame you didn't keep them, you would have had proof of what you are accusing me of. And I will state here and now: I have never sent anyone a friend request. I too have turned them down and ignored them.
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@keithprosser
Really we needtwo words 'muslimophobia' and 'islamophobia'.
I knew that I had mentioned somethingsimilar before,. I don't doubt for a second that this silly idea is on the cards.
Post #79 above Added: 12.15.1807: 24AM
"But that said, Iam sure it won't be .long before Muslims start demanding they are seen as onerace this then will give a "definition" to the silly word"islamophobia" and every White Westerner who criticizes Islam, willbe charged with a "hate crime", now that would be "racist"wouldn't it? ; we are not far off that now."
Indeed Keith I can seethe pitfall it this pathetic suggestion. Can you.
Indeed Keith I can seethe pitfall it this pathetic suggestion. Can you.
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@keithprosser
I just believe one thinks more clearly when not frothing at the mouth with rhetorical indignation!
Very poor show that, Keith, even from an apologist like you.
So stating facts in response to you and your statements is me "frothing at the mouth" is it.
rhetorical indignation!
Is all I have done on this thread is quote facts and probably 99% of those have been from ISLAMIC scholarly sources as does the author Harry Richardson in the PDF posted by the OP. . Sources you just don't accept. I cannot help you there, you either believe their words or you don't.
After reading the pdf post in the OP's link. It has inspired me to order some of the works of a medical doctor Dr Wafa Sultan who also trained as a psychiatrist in Syria, who is quoted by Harry Richardson in the PDF .
The God Who Hates>>> see link below.
Here are some of her quotes. or what you would call "rhetorical indignation! "
"Islam has never been misunderstood. Islam is the problem. But no one is stating the truth. No one is taking a hard look at the root of terrorism which is the brain washing machine called Islam. Islam is not up to me, is not up to any Muslim – man or woman. Islam is exactly what the prophet Muhammad did and said. In order to understand Islam you have to read the biography of Muhammad. It is very traumatising. It is very shocking".
"You need to understand that Islam is the problem. I am sick and tired of people here in the West asking me to soften my message. I am sick and tired of people asking me, "Are you trying to change 1.3 billion people?" Yes, I am trying!"
But of course , in your apologetic opinion, this Dr wouldn't be qualified to comment on Islam, would she Keith?
Really we need two words 'muslimophobia' and 'islamophobia'.
No doubt that will soon be the case when government once more panders to an idea. I have already said that this is only a matter of time before THE NON WORD "islamophobia" is defined officially and then simply criticizing>>>>> ISLAM<<<<< will be a hate crime.I bet you cannot wait? Like Dr Wafa Sultan says " "You need to understand that Islam is the problem".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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@Grugore
Know what I like about you? You're an atheist asshole. But you're an honest atheist asshole. ;) I'm still praying for you, btw.
I don't know what I would be called. I simply do not believe these christian scriptures the same way as you do. I have made my stance clear many times now.
I suppose it won't be long before Keith prosser asks me again, for the billionth time, what my stance on the christian scriptures are.
But this is a thread, your thread , concerning Islam and not my beliefs.
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The problem with such a falsehood is that Muslims consider your desire to worship some other God as an attack on Islam.
This is true. To worship any other god but Allah and to disbelieve Muhammad to be his prophet comes under " causing mischief" and "waging war against Allah".
But I am sure Keith prosser will be along any moment with accusations of "cherry picking" - "quoting out of context" - misinterpretation" - , islamophobia , "bigotry" and "racism", although Islam is not a race.
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@Grugore
--> @StephenSeveral times, Palestinians have used children as suicide bombers. And what was a child doing there in the first place? I would have shot him too. Don't want your kids shot? Leave them with the babysitter...duh
Why are you directing that post at me? I didn't bring murdering Israeli soldiers killing 4 year olds. See post #180 above
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Christianity is pacifist. It teaches Christians to endure persecution - even to welcome it.
Yes I know it is pacifist, I am not sure they "welcome" persecution though. That said, it doesn't stop you and others throwing Christianity into the mix as some kind of defense and or retaliatory excuse for the barbarity of Islam.
Islam is different - it teaches that Muslims should fight to defend themselves.
BS! It teaches violence towards ANYONE for simply not believing in Allah and the so called prophet Muhammad. So stop lying . Let me see all your evidence for that disingenuous statement. The goal of Islam is world domination. You keep talking about me and a few others "cherry picking verses" and putting my own interpretation to them. How do you know what is the correct interpretation?
I have asked you twice now to interpret this verse for me and up to this point you have chosen to ignore it. I say this verse CONFIRMS what I believe the goal of Islam is and what ISLAM tells us its goal i:. perpetual Jihad "[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah". . So here you go, the floor is yours>>
Quran 8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
Islam teaches that violence can only be justified if it is the only option and in used defensively, not offensively.
BS again!
Are those principles subverted to serve personal or political ends? Of course it is - often.
MUSLIM scholars tell us often that islam IS a religion of war. But these well educated scholars, YOU choose to ignore and look for some excuse for the muslims who actually are carrying out their gods word to the letter telling us, THEY are interpreting the qur'an and the hadith wrong.
If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side.
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@disgusted
This particular soldier was a sniper who shot a 4yr old boy through the eye, he wasn't protecting Israel so what was his motive as a Jew? A yhwh given right?
I don't know. That is why I asked you. Is there any evidence that this was a religiously motivated attack as to why this murdering Israeli shot this innocent baby. Is this murderer on record as shouting "I am killing this baby in the name of yhwh as it is my yhwh given right? Or did he just shout "yhwh is great"?
Maybe you can put up the whole story up for me so I can see for myself.
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@disgusted
Then why single out Islam?
This is not my thread. I didn't start it and I didn't create it, I suggest you ask the op why he "singled out islam". But remember, this is a religion sub forum, that is to say a forum to discuss religion and not just a specific religion.
It appears to me, looking over the pages of religious topics that the only SINGLE religion actually being discussed by far is Christianity. It seems then that christianity can be discussed with immunity, and impunity and without complaint. Now that is blatant bias even though I have created many threads on Christianity.
I haven't noticed you or keith prosser accusing me of "singling out Christianity and or Christians" or being a Christianophob or a bigot or even a racist, Why is that?. Did I miss it? Because I have created more threads on Christianity by an extremely wide margin.
And I haven't "singled out Islam". I have been more critical of christianity and the bible than I have Islam, By about 30 to 1 . Simply check my profile
You will find one concerning and Pakistan's blasphemy laws.
You forgot to address my question.
Can you find me any references that these Israeli murderers were killing in the name of their god, on the strict instructions of their god and to further the cause of their religious beliefs, as are the followers of Islam instructed to do by their book and their god? Did this particular Israeli soldier for instance, shout, " Jehovah is great" before opening fire on this innocent toddler?
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@Mopac
When it comes to scripture, you have to understand that it belongs to the church. It isn't really yours to interpret.
It isn't yours either then, but it hasn't and doesn't stop people changing verses, and re interpreting words until they become totally unrecognisable.
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but I think this thread is about offering Muslim pupils the choice between hunger and sin.
No stop telling lies and being sly. It doesn't mention "muslim pupils, hunger or sin". It doesn't even mention which schools. You know PERFECTLY well what this thread is clearly about. It is about government pandering to a so called "religious" ideology and government turning a blind eye to muslims breaking the law, while legislating against, and the criminalising of, the practice of the age old custom of Asians eating dog meat.
Here and clearly just for you is the headline and sub headline of this thread.
Racist UK Government to Ban Eating Dog Meat
OP. Theresa May is under pressure to ban eating dogs in Britain, after it emerged that the practice is increasing.
Then go back and read post #38, 46 and 50, where I have made it more than clear what this thread is about.
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@keithprosser
--> @StephenYou sent me some messages. I deleted them unread as I always do whoever they are from. I don't do 'friends' or debates either. i just read and write posts.
I would like to know how you deleted them. I asked a mod not so long ago how i delete a ever filling message box and why there was no delete facility. HERE , READ FOR YOURSELF!!
09.26.2018 04:02PM
I feel the site is a bit short on ' how to' information, unless I simply cannot find it. Such, how to delete mail in my post box. Could you point me in the right direction please?
09.26.2018 04:08PM
This is where a lot of the how-to information can be found: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/346
09.26.2018 04:08PM
That said, it is not, to my knowledge, possible to delete messages like these.
I have not sent you a single message since the day I arrived on the forum. They certainly were not from ME!!!!! You are either lying or mistaken. It is a shame you didn't keep them, you would have had proof of what you are accusing me of. And I will state here and now: I have never sent anyone a friends request. I too have turned them down and ignored them.
As I see it, a school or pupil who wants halal can either acccept pre-stunned halal or go without. That seems fair compromise.
That is not my point and you know it. What about Asians who are about to have their right to eat dog criminalised.
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@keithprosser
--> @StephenYou sent me some messages. I deleted them unread as I always do whoever they are from. I don't do 'friends' or debates either. i just read and write posts.
I would like to know how you deleted them. I asked a mod not so long ago how i delete a ever filling message box and why there was no delete facility. HERE , READ FOR YOURSELF!!
09.26.2018 04:02PM
I feel the site is a bit short on ' how to' information, unless I simply cannot find it. Such, how to delete mail in my post box. Could you point me in the right direction please?
09.26.2018 04:08PM
This is where a lot of the how-to information can be found: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/346
09.26.2018 04:08PM
That said, it is not, to my knowledge, possible to delete messages like these.
I have not sent you a single message since the day I arrived on the forum. They certainly were not from ME!!!!! You are either lying or mistaken. It is a shame you didn't keep them, you would have had proof of what you are accusing me of. And I will state here and now: I have never sent anyone a friends request. I too have turned them down and ignored them.
As I see it, a school or pupil who wants halal can either acccept pre-stunned halal or go without. That seems fair compromise.
That is not my point and you know it. What about Asians who are about to have their right to eat dog criminalised.
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@keithprosser
They will be able to, not 'they will'.
DO and HAVE Meaning it is making a mockery not only their own judgement but of British law too.
You must have missed this part:
"Twenty-seven schools across Lancashire currently have unstunned halal meat on their menus.
They can go for unstunned meat because it is not illegal due to old laws designed for the Jewish community, but if they do they do so on their own bat. If they do at all. In this thread you have suggested unstunned slaughter is illegal and the council capitulated to Islamist pressure. Neither is true.
It is against the law. Why are you ignoring that fact. And it is ONLY ALLOWED for religious practice. Not to fill up British stores with it or force it down the throats of school children
A number of supermarkets in the UK have diversified the food they sell in their stores - including Halal meat.
- ...
- Waitrose. ...
- Marks and Spencer. ...
- Tesco. ...
- Morrisons. ...
- Sainsbury's. ...
- Asda.
There are restaurants selling it too? Listen, I don't care what anyone eats or how it is killed. It is the pandering to a ideology over a custom and tradition of a whole race of Asian peoples.
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@keithprosser
The Islamic world is tearing itself apart - I think its because the traditionalists saw their end insight and they are good at mobilising the mob
There you are again .Trying to play down the impact and influence that Islam has had and is having around the world today. It is not “ a mob” of a few thousand people that are being “mobilised” is it? It was whole Islamic nations that went into frenzied hate against the west mode, over a book and a few cartoons. Our own government have told us that there are somewhere between 26-30,000 known Jihadis in the Uk alone. Germany have reported similar figures
You tried using this tactic of playing the threat of Islam down before . Here where you wote>.
islam spread throughout spain right up to france but were defeated by the Franks in 771 CE -otherwise we might be Muslims today!
This is you trying to make out that Islam was easily halted in one battle and that Islam was nothing more than a – flash - in - the - pan.
And this:
Islam isn't a thing with a mind or goals and it can't be said that islam having failed in the 8th is trying to takeover Europe again.
You had to be reminded that Islam had, for over 400 years waged war and conquest expanding across the globe into Spain, Poland,Hungary France, Yugoslavia and the Caucuses. Into the holy lands and as far East as the Indian subcontinent. And was by no means a – what you called a “failure”.
Islam has had three of the biggest and long lasting empires that the world had ever known. Again, your are either ignorant to these facts or are being disingenuous AGAIN.
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@disgusted
Are Israeli soldiers dashing the heads of their enemies children today in the 21st century?They are though shooting 4yr olds, heroes or what?
Absolutely terrible I agree. and of course they aren't heroes and I don't believe anyone here is saying they are. And of course they should be held to account.
But can you find me any references that these Israeli murderers were killing in the name of their god, on the strict instructions of their god and to further the cause of their religious beliefs, as are the followers of Islam instructed to do by their book and their god? Did this particular Israeli soldier for instance, shout, " Jehovah is great" before opening fire on this innocent toddler?
Please, save me the lecture on how bad ALL of these so called "religious" beliefs systems are. You're preaching to the converted. I know how bad they ALL are. I know how bad they ALL can be, I know how bad they ALL have been in the past, and I know how bad it will get before it gets any better.
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@Plisken
It's not an income tax, and I would wager the idea is to establish a covenant with equal rights, the tax being an exchange for protection.
No, it is a protection racket, extortion.
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@keithprosser
"Twenty-seven schools across Lancashire currently have unstunned halal meat on their menus. Even after county hall stops supplying it, they will still be free to source it elsewhere, provided the products meet the necessary food standards".
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@keithprosser
As I said, I've been inside slaughterhouses and I've also seen unstunned animals disptched with a knife.
I am not the slightest bit interested in where you have been or what you have seen Keith. My point as you are well aware, is that government are pandering to a idea" religion" and not equally to an traditional Asian cultural practice of a whole race of people.. in other words, what muslims have demanded, muslims have got.
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@keithprosser
The point I wanted to make is that you don't necessarily learn much from verses in scripture.
I will assume that you are suggesting that old chestnut "cherry picking", Keith.
Tell me,if you wanted to start a thread on biblical scripture, will you post the whole bible?
One can identify the passages used to justify beheading apostes but not the reason why slavish adherence to the letter (or one interpretation of the letter)
You are more than welcome to give us your "interpretation" of what certain verses mean, Keith. Until then we only have the Islamic interpretations of these verses, don't we?
For that you have look at more than just the texts.
But you , from my own experience do not accept what is put in front of you even from from scholars of islam. the author in the OP link makes it quite clear that got his research from Islamic sources such as the the respected authority Ibn Isḥāq, but you simply called the authors "the egregious bias of writers", so by you saying:
" more than just the texts", by that do you mean, looking for other Islamic sources to defend the indefensible or a source to actually support and justify the actual verse in question?
Ok, try this one>
Quran 8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
This is believed to be calling for perpetual jihad "until all religion is for allah".
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
This is believed to be calling for perpetual jihad "until all religion is for allah".
So, using all of your experience on the subject, could you be so kind as to give us your interpretation on the above quranic verse Quran 8:39.
Why is Christian fundamentlism having a renaissance in the US?
You tellus.... in another thread. Maybe it fears the rise of Islam, Lord knows, the citizens of the U.S have every reason to fear Islam. <<<<< see that , ISLAM
The bible and koran don't change but clearly something does.
The Words of bible maybe doesn't change, not much anyway, but the adherents to the faith do and they have dragged it into the 21st century. Christians AND Jews do not stone people anymore;there was a reformation you see. And it appears that the Christian “religion”is ever revolving. Just recently the Pope himself said we can soon expect to find life on other planets. Who’d have believed that a Pope would have overturned two thousand years of believing that we were the only beings in the universe?But there it was , coming from the lips of the “father” himself. You see Keith It is people that change things particularly in the West.
Can you now point out to me any changes in attitude towards the Quran by muslims in the Islamic east?
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@keithprosser
It is near certain in the current atmosphere a noisy minority of muslims will complain ......
Like the Lancashire Council of Mosques - that is to say representing more that one mosque - 230 at the last count, that was established in 1989. I am sure it was just a "tiny, tiny minority" complaining Keith , just in Lancashire alone.
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@keithprosser
Which scripture says to its enemies:Happy is the one who seizes your infantsand dashes them against the rocks.
That will be the ancient Hebrew Psalm 137:9 Keith. What's your point? Yes it is a disgraceful thing to wish upon any peoples of the world and should be condemned . But tell me Keith, are they dashing the heads of children against rock in Israel today Keith? Are Israeli soldiers dashing the heads of their enemies children today in the 21st century?
Are they still cutting the heads of those who refuse to convert in the Islamic world?
Are they still stoning women who have been raped in the Islamic world?
What about blasphemy, Keith, what is the sentence today for that in the Islamic world?
Apostasy? What the sentence for apostasy, today in the Islamic world?
Your best attempt to defend this barbaric ideology called Islam is always to attempt to contextualise the violence that is still, today in the 21st century, happening in the Islamic world to that of the ancient Hebrews of thousands of years ago. It is no defence Keith.
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and most animals for halal meat are stunned before being cut nd bled.
Not to my knowledge.
Lancashire council "banned" this practice>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-41775883
Then this meeting was held
"A Muslim body has criticised a council ban on unstunned halal meat, claiming stunning animals is "inhumane".
Councillors in Lancashire voted on Thursday to end its use in council-run schools saying it was "cruel" to not stun animals before slaughter.
But the Lancashire Council of Mosques (LCOM) claims the practice of stunning can cause more distress to the animal.
UK and EU law requires animals to be stunned before being killed, unless the meat is intended for Muslims or Jews.
LCOM chairman Abdul Hamid Qureshi: "From our point of view, stunning is not humane - cases can be seen on YouTube where animals are in distress. Animal care is important.
"If the law allows it, the council does not have the right to impose this."
But the Lancashire Council of Mosques (LCOM) claims the practice of stunning can cause more distress to the animal.
UK and EU law requires animals to be stunned before being killed, unless the meat is intended for Muslims or Jews.
LCOM chairman Abdul Hamid Qureshi: "From our point of view, stunning is not humane - cases can be seen on YouTube where animals are in distress. Animal care is important.
"If the law allows it, the council does not have the right to impose this."
have a guess what happened?
Yes keith they backed down.
Lancashire County Council will keep serving unstunned halal meat in Lancashire schools.
It's been revealed they can't enforce the decision they made last October, to only serve stunned meat, excluding poultry.
The Lancashire Council of Mosques brought a legal challenge, highlighting the things County Council didn't do.
Abdul Hamid Qureshi said:
It's been revealed they can't enforce the decision they made last October, to only serve stunned meat, excluding poultry.
The Lancashire Council of Mosques brought a legal challenge, highlighting the things County Council didn't do.
Abdul Hamid Qureshi said:
"They didn't have wider consultation, impact assessment before they made the decision and these are protocol, important procedures to go through.
"We hope that they won't go on to do that, it's time-consuming, it's frustrating, it's wrong - there are a lot of other, very important issues on which we should concentrate."
Like I have said before. Once muslims start to become the majority, it is then they start making demands on the indigenous populations and their governments.
Coming to a town near you.
.
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@Polytheist-Witch
So the UK has a law but lets it get broken?
MYYYYYYYYYYYYYY You do catch on quick.
On the other hand you an eat dogs and cows.
No, the ban is/ will be against eating dog meat, a tradition that has been practiced for thousands of years by far eastern Asians. Learn to read
I fail to see why you are so outraged other than you think Muslim might be getting something over on you.
Yes you have shown how you fail to read and take in simple sentences on many occasions, ya Witch.
Being allowed to break the law is not getting one over on me you silly clown. It is allowing someones idea to break the law out of fear while outlawing another traditional practiced by a whole race. Islam is not a race you buffoon,
And it's not so much racism as white morons think dogs should be treated special.
No, this particular WHITE person thinks people should treated equally under the law. And that the law shouldn't pander out of fear to a idea especially a bad idea like Islam. And can I suggest you keep your racist comments and opinions to yourself.
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@keithprosser
But we are talking the law.
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HOW CAN THEY ALTER THE QURAN!!!!With a pen.It seems we are talking past each other. Perhaps it is my fault. Perhaps I have not worded my question properly.In the the end a book/faith/religion does not and cannot take any actions on its own. Books cannot commit violence or enact discrimination. Is your problem with the words contained in a book or with the actions they promote? Is your problem with a belief or with the actions of people? The former could be considered a problem with Islam (as separate from Muslims themselves) the latter would definitely be a problem with Muslims as they are the ones taking action (the quran cannot act).Again I am not defending Islam ao.much as asking why you have singled it out and what exactly you think is a reasonable solution to the problems you have brought up.
That is simply the most absolute and complete ignorant response one can have expected. You made a statement an absolute stupid and redundant statement and now after being pressed you simply couldn't back it up.
GO AWAY, you absolute clown!!
Again I am not defending Islam
You are and your making excuses for it too. Go away you buffoon.
much as asking why you have singled it out
This is not my thread . and I have criticized the christian scriptures more than I have islam and the Quran by about 30 to 1.
and what exactly you think is a reasonable solution to the problems you have brought up.
I didn't bring them up. it is not my thread. there is no solutions to islam.
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@Polytheist-Witch
So what favor is religion getting. I can't imagine you are this stupid.
Stop being so bloody ignorant and bloody damn minded.
Islam/ MUSLIMS are being allowed to break British law because government are afraid of upsetting muslims. Halal meat is sold in stores all over Britain now without a single prosecution. Slitting the throats of animals and letting them bleed to death IS OUTLAWED IN THIS COUNTRY!!!!
HALAL meat is the Islamic form of slaughtering animals or poultry, dhabiha, involves killing through a cut to the jugular vein, carotid artery and windpipe AND LETTING THE ANIMAL BLEED TO DEATH!!!!
This is where the preference and favouritism of an "religious" idea is being preferred over the traditions and culture over a whole race. This is simply racism.
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@Polytheist-Witch
From the OP. Which is it . Legal or not.
Can't you FKN read? It says it is OUTLAWED
The Islamic form of slaughtering animals ............This type of slaughter is outlawed in the U.K .
Which means IT IS ILLEGAL!!!!!
outlaw
/ˈaʊtlɔː/
verb
past tense: outlawed; past participle: outlawed
- ban or make illegal.
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@Polytheist-Witch
because A RELIGIOUS IDEA!!!!!!!!!!! is being favoured and given PREFERENCE!!!!!! over THE CULTURE OF A RACE!!!!!! even though the religious IDEA preferenced and favoured is breaking British law. I .E my GOVERNMENT IS PANDERING to ISLAM EVEN AT THE COST OF ALLOWING AN IDEA TO BREAK THE LAWS OF THE LAND whilst they are about to ban and CRIMINALISE a traditional custom of a WHOLE race of people.
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@Polytheist-Witch
It's cultural not religious. Like the French eating horse meat.
Exactly my point ya, Witch. Government are pandering to an idea and not equally to a culture.
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@secularmerlin
Of course Muslims could alter Islam.
No they can't and I have have given you just a few reasons why they can't. YOU on the other hand have not even bothered to show us all how muslims can alter the unalterable word of their god.
They are in fact the only ones that can.
It is up to them yes. But they cannot do so and I have given you ample reasons why they can't.
It would have nothing to do with me and would require explanations from no one.
That's right , nothing to do with YOU but it hasn't stopped YOU telling us that MUSLIMS can alter the unalterable word of their god . And YOU haven't explained how they can, have YOU?
I agree that banning a belief is impossible as beliefs are not a chouce.
So why ask me me about it. Why even put the idea forward. You are going in circles now. The simple fact is that YOU do not have a solution to the islamic problem even though YOU are able to tell us that at post 122 above "Of course Muslims Could alter the quran".
HOW can they? is what I want to know?
That does leave us with the question of exactly what you think should be done
STOP IT FFS!!!!!! I have said IT IS FOR MUSLIMS TO REFORM ISLAM. IT IS FOR MUSLIMS TO ALTER THE QURAN!!!! how many times??? It doesn't matter what I think.
But it does leaves me with the question of why haven't YOU put forward a solution raised by your own statement:
SO FOR THE 6!!!!!!!!!! TIME and after YOU saying at post 122 above "Of course Muslims Could alter the quran".
HOW CAN THEY ALTER THE QURAN!!!!
How are YOU are going to explain to MUSLIMS how their holy god sent book, passed onto them PHYSICALLY via The angel Gabriel down to Muhammad can alter these sacred UNALTERABLE words?
Just leave the thread if you cannot back up what your spouting about others and what they can do.
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@Polytheist-Witch
If you don't want to be called a liar quit posting lies.
Just let us see these alleged lies, you clown. Or stop derailing other members threads with your unfounded allegations. This thread is not for you to attack me. have the respect to address the op or leave it.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Again Stephen admits to being an atheist.
Where above have I "admitted" that I am an atheist? show us your proof and stop lying. There should be a rule against lying about members without proof I will have to ask a mod if there is such a rule if there isn't there should be?
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@secularmerlin
I thought it was a discussion of the faith known as Islam only and was not aimed at Muslims themselves.
But you made it about muslims by saying at post 122 above "Of course Muslims Could alter the quran".
see that you clown. YOU said that, not me
Well since it is as much about the actions of Muslims as their beliefs allow me to ask again.Exactly what would you like to see happen in regards to Islam and muslims?
I have already responded to this by telling you " it is for muslims themselves" to sort out. I have said why the can't/won't. You insist they can so why don't you just tell us all how they- muslims- can "alter the quran". I have asked you FOUR times now. Why won't you address this.
For that matter what would you like to see done about other possibly violent beliefs?
Again, your responding to my questions to you with questions of your own that I have already explained. Here it is again. in big large bold underlined letters:
IT IS FOR MUSLIMS TO REFORM ISLAM. IT IS FOR MUSLIMS TO ALTER THE QURAN!!!!
Beliefs that call for the exalecution of homosexuals, nonvirgin women, divorced women and people that work on any day of the week they choose for example?
But that is YOU AGAIN discussing Muslims and not its source ISLAM.
I'm pretty sure if we ban Islam for it's violent commands it would logically follow that we should ban any belief system with similar commands.
HOW MANY TIMES. Do you have memory problems? You cannot ban a "belief system" you cannot ban an idea which is a belief system. And we are not discussing "any other belief systems" we are discussing ISLAM.
SO FOR THE 5 TIME and after YOU saying at post 122 above "Of course Muslims Could alter the quran".
How are YOU are going to explain to MUSLIMS how their holy god sent book, passed onto them PHYSICALLY via The angel Gabriel down to Muhammad can alter these sacred UNALTERABLE words?
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I want to see how a theist wriggles out of this.
They will first have a few attempts to see how gullible you are with replies like this that have absolutely no biblical foundation whatsoever:
Tradesecret WROTE #4 : 2. God is divine. Satan is an angel who has fallen because he wanted to be God. God is omniscient and all knowing. Satan is neither. Neither is Satan all powerful
When then challenged on this they will respond with other biblical verses from the same foundationless source material and have nothing to do with your original questions in the hope that they will look intelligent and superior to you.
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@keithprosser
If I had my way there woudn't even be countries!
Keith, there are "divisions" in all walks and aspects of life. No matter where you live. It is natural. Within a Country there are divisions by political preference. Schools are divided by religious preference and those schools are again divided into sporting houses. People prefer different things to others that create division. Some people like cricket while others wouldn't be seen dead a Lord's, Edgbaston or The Oval. A blues fan wouldn't be seen dead in a Liverpool shirt. I could go on but I am not going to waste my time arguing the bleedin' obvious.
So forget your wishful thinking , civilisations have been divided since day one, and wishing is for children
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I think very little of the historical stuff is reliable.
Well, when you have civilisations thousands of miles apart referring to gods "descending" albeit giving them different names, it just cannot be ignored as much as this could all be put down to "logical fallacy" by many.
Its too clouded by theology and nationalism to be accurate.
Something that can be said for all modern as well as ancient histories. History, it is said, is written by the victors.
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@MagicAintReal
3. Why is it that god had the ability to create the devil, but has not the ability destroy him?
He doesn't have the ability to even control his own creation, never mind "destroy him". He also had over 200 other "sons" that he couldn't control, either. These 200 hundred are said to have broken a serious taboo, yet weren't punished depending on what one chooses to believe.
Which leaves us with an extremely embarrassing question for the theist doesn't it?
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I start from taking the bible as a cobbled together collection of
Are you saying there is absolutely no historicity to these "folk tales and legends"?
I think its quite odd that right from the beginning we find two slightly different accounts of the same thing.
Arguably there are. But the theist will give us an argument, as has already come about in my case and they failed miserably. As was the case here >
Everythingis Wrong about the Biblical Creation in Genesis https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/493
And here
One God? It is simply Not True https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/506
Clearly the editors tried to smooth over the joins and harmonise everything - and did a pretty good job of it -
I don't think they did. The glaring contradictions and half stories are there from the off which only serve to raise some serious questions such as those of the OP
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@keithprosser
Anyway the stuff about 'giants' is much more interesting.
ESV
Genesis 6:4 reads as : The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mightymen that were of old, themen of renown.
The KJV
Genesis 6:4 reads as: There Were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men etc.
When looked at side my side it translates In Christian bibles as giants = nephilim = giants , but according to some biblical scholars the Hebrew word “ "nephilim” as in the biblical verse/s is a mistranslation of the term nephilim or NFL relates, they say, to “those who came down” or “those who descended” and from this there developed some warped idea that these giants/nephilim were cast down and it simply became Christian dogma that they were “fallen angels” who had been “cast down”.
We shouldn’t lose sight of the biblical fact that these beings were, at the end of the day, “sons of God” which cast a whole new question on the relationship between god and his “sons”. How could he not keep control of them? Why didn’t he create them sinless as he did with his “only son” Jesus? <<<<<<< see what I did there?
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@keithprosser
I take it people have seen Noah with Russel Crow with the giants as rock creatures?3 minute version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brVR2622AKU
Indeed. There have been many religious/faith based movies over the last twenty years (many more than people realise about ten at least just this year) that seem to be giving a different take on what the preachers and teachers seem to ignore. And this is not to mention the movies on other ancient religious beliefs ie Greeks gods and gods of the Egyptians..
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When Empires spread they carry their religions with them.
I am assuming you mean religions. So yes they do “carry their religions” but they do not necessarily enforce that religion by the sword onto other nations as Islam has done in past as shown above and still doing so.
The British and other European empires Christianised entire contients.
They didn’t spread Christianity by the sword, They may have taken countries by warfare and later became christianised, but it had nothing to do with rapeing and murdering for Christ , like muslims are ordered to do by Allah and Muhammad. And we are talking Islam here on this thread not christianity.
Did an expanding Arab empire push thespread Islam or vice versa?
They did, by the sword. It was convert or die.
But we aren't talking about empires nowadays!
I think it was you who brought empire building into the mix. I just expanded on your disingenuous statement by you only mentioning Spain in the Muslim Expansion of the globe, by the sword here>>
islam spread throughout spain right up to france but were defeated by the Franks in 771 CE - otherwise we might be Muslims today!
Islam isn't a thing with a mind or goals
Then you know nothing of the goals of Islam. How Many times do you need reminding?
Quran 8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
That verse is talking about perpetual holy jihad "until all religion is for allah". You can deny that fact as much as you like. but it won't alter it's meaning.
and it can't be said that islam having failed in the C8th is trying to takeover Europe again.
Over 400 years of Islamic expansion across the globe is not a failure by any means. Islam has had three of the biggest and long lasting empires the world had ever know. again, your are either ignorant to these facts or are being disingenuous AGAIN.
is trying to takeover Europe again.
Kid yourself all day. But you won’t convince me or that of millions of others in Europe who are indeed suffering because of the influence and actions of Islam as taught in the quran
The current situation is new and history is not repeating itself.
Opinion. Muslims - that is to say more than one muslim - around the world are acting in EXACTLY the same way today that they were taught to act towards the non believer 1400 years ago.
If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side.
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@keithprosser
IMO Satan is a definite individual in Job.
it is a title. it means accuser, opposer David was referred to being a Satan. Simon was called satan by Jesus.
the Hebrew term satan denotes adversary/. the Greek Diabolos means accuser so in this regard satan has been associated with an argumentative OT 'son of god' called satan but with no actual scriptural basis for the association.
Satan has only three mentions in the OT, oddly, considering from day one he is said to have stood at god's right hand side. Interesting that Jesus says that he will return standing in the same place.
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@Plisken
Why is this in the religion forum?
Because it has to do with "religious" privilege over another culture. As explained in the OP
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@keithprosser
islam spread throughout spain right up to france but were defeated by the Franks in 771 CE - otherwise we might be Muslims today!
It spread a lot further into other places too, Poland, Hungary France, Yugoslavia and the Caucuses . Into the holy lands and as far East as the Indian subcontinent. Yes these lovely peaceful followers went into foreign lands spreading the word of their religion of peace and the people just couldn't get enough of it, could they keith? And all achieved by "just a tiny,tiny minority of muslims" too!!!
If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side.
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@Castin
9/11 changed the world.
It did, via muslims fighting the cause of Islam.
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@secularmerlin
you told me that muslims could alter the quran. Show me your evidence for this assumption.The Quran is just a book. Books can be altered. I'm not sure what your asking for proof of here.
This is not just any old book of words to Muslims. Stop being so ignorant. This "book" holds the unalterable word of their god.
Of course Muslims could alter the quran.Prove itAs I said I'm not sure what proof you need that books can and sometimes are edited, poorly translated or deliberately altered between printings.
You haven't even thought this through have you.
So why don't YOU for a start, explain to Muslims how they can alter the unalterable word of the god without committing blasphemy?
How about starting here?
First, majority of Muslims would have to be be persuaded that Quran is not the literal speech from the voice of their God, but inspiration invoked in a simple man which he interpreted it in his own imperfect understanding and the understanding of his time and place.
But wait!!!!!
To that will come the extremely big obstacle that Quran and the hadith is very much believed by the absolute majority of Muslims to be the literal speech of an omniscient god . The angel Gabriel coming down to Muhammad with the quranic verses is too much a part of the faith and the scripture for it be omitted or altered, and any talk of the quran not being the literal word of God has never and will never gain the support of the majority.
What about trying this then?
Persuading the majority of Muslims that Quran was sent only for a specific time and place and the actions of Muhammad were valid only for that time?
But wait!!!!!
But Quran is believed to be the final and perfect message to all of mankind, that being another inherent aspect of Islamic faith and the scripture,it has never changed and very unlikely to ever do.
OK what about this?
Persuaded Muslims that parts of the scripture are morally wrong, and should be rejected?
But wait!!! again!!!!!
That would mean that either the omniscient, omnibenevolent god was wrong. An utterly blasphemous idea, so again, is very far from likely to gain foothold among the majority of Muslims.
So I wait with baited breath how YOU are going to explain to MUSLIMS how their holy god sent book, passed onto them PHYSICALLY via The angel Gabriel down to Muhammad can alter these sacred UNALTERABLE words?
Like I have asked you now three times now, to prove to all how THEY are going alter there book.?
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It is actually veryhard to locate fair and objective material on islam,
So you just call it a "religion of peace" and hope no one will look no further.
If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side.
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