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Who are you to tell them they can reform THEIR ideology?I did not say that I could. Who are you to tell them they can't?
I didn't say YOU could either. But you have said at post 122 above "Of course Muslims Could alter the quran". ie you told me that muslims could alter the quran. Show me your evidence for this assumption. The evidence shows they cannot, stop ignoring the facts , we won't get anywhere if you keep ignoring and denying what Islamic law states.
This is not a necessary Muslim view,
Prove it
Only Muslims can alter what they believe and even then not by choice.
Yes I have told YOU that it would be up to muslims to do so umpteen times now, and I have also pointed out the muslims dilemma, you want to ignore that instead of trying to solve it.
Change of that nature is rarely simple and often results in violence on both sides
From whom would the violence come? Those that attempt to alter or change /reform one unalterable last and final word of god Allah, will face death. These are facts. So can I take it that you are suggesting only war can lead to reformation?
Who are you to tell them they can't?
It is not me who is telling Muslims they cannot reform Islam, stop being ignorant and stop implying that I have said as much. . I have told YOU, not muslims, that Islam cannot be reformed. Muslims already know they cannot alter the perfect unalterable word of their god Allah.
It is YOU who has said point blank at post 117:
Of course Muslims could alter the quran.
Prove it
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@keithprosser
Creating and exacerbating division and strife is easy - even Grugore and Stephen can do that! I want to see something constructive for a change.
I think you'll find that it is Islam that makes the "division". You simply know nothing of this ideology that you defend. Here's' a little bit of "divisive" information for you.
islam divides the world into two parts. The House of Peace and the House of War.
Islam believes itself to be the House of Peace. Can you guess who it is that muslims believes represents the other "House" ?
I want to see something constructive for a change.
In what form? Do you mean change? And what do you mean by "constructive"? Why not put something forward instead of accusing others of not producing or putting "something constructive" forward. What are your ideas.
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@secularmerlin
Of course Muslims Could alter the quran.
No they cannot. It's The last and perfect unalterable word of Allah. You don’t seem to be grasping this fact. Who are you to tell them they can reform THEIR ideology?
All it would take is the agreement of enough Muslims.
You make that sound simple. See above.
Of course that would only hold true of Muslims that except this new doctrine.
You are at least recognising it is up to Muslims to reform the Quran. but your not accepting or understanding the dilemma of the muslim. again, who are you to tell them they can reform THEIR ideology? No one that's who.
But tell me. If it is the perfect and unalterable last word of god Allah, then why – from the Muslim point of view - would it need reforming?
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@Mopac
At least one former Muslim I knew became a Christian after talking with me, and they were Iranian. You can in Iran! In fact, leaving Islam is punishable by death under Muslim law.
Yes, one can get killed for that sort of thing, but be careful about saying "Muslim law" the apologists will have a fit and are likely to accuse you of all kinds of things, such as "bigotry, racism, and islamophobia" and of cherry picking the appropriate verses to prove your point such as ,
APOSTASY: Bukhari : 9.84.57. - ISLAM ANDAPOSTASY" Prophet Muhammad said: Whoever changed his Islamic religion,then kill him."
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@Mopac
A Mosque in Chicago. I told you, I was really considering it for a while.But I eventually realized that there was something very wrong with it.
What was wrong with it that made you "suddenly" realise it wasn't for you? It seems prosser only accepts the words of people who have actually visited and attended a Mosque, such as the well respected Islamic Scholar Muḥammad ibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār was an Arab Muslim historian and hagiography who wrote The Biography of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad telling us that the perfect Muslim role model Muhammad the prophet murdered over 600 men and boys because they refused convert to Islam and whose favourite pastime was lighting fires on the chests of his captives.
Or Ayatollah Khomeini who had devoted his entire life to the study of Islamic doctrine and became the spiritual and religious leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the foremost religious authority, wrote:
“But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(who say this) are witless.”
No, scratch those those two, they seem to be anti Islam for the sake of it, they aren't telling the truth they are just trying to strike an irrational fear and dread into the minds of the non-believer, so the opinions of these two learned scholars of Islam don't count for much. They, in the mind of Keith prosser, are among those who are " woefully ignorant of Islam "
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Theresa May is under pressure to ban eating dogs in Britain, after it emerged that the practice is increasing.
The Prime Minister has been warned by an international canine group that rising immigration has caused a spike in the consumption of dog meat in the UK.
Under current laws it is legal to kill and eat dogs in Britain, but the World Dog Alliance is calling for a full ban on any interaction with dog meat and will launch a nationwide campaign in the autumn.
“With three million immigrants from East Asia in the UK, we cannot deny this situation exists here too”.
“We also believe legislation against dog meat in UK would provide us with strength to continue our work in Asia, as the UK could influence other countries to stop dog meat consumption.
“With three million immigrants from East Asia in the UK, we cannot deny this situation exists here too”.
“We also believe legislation against dog meat in UK would provide us with strength to continue our work in Asia, as the UK could influence other countries to stop dog meat consumption.
It's a "religion" thing
All very one sided when many councils allow the slaughter of live animals by a slit to the throat and are then left to bleed to death. The practice is known as Halal. Halal is Arabic for permissible. Halal food is that which adheres to Islamic law, as defined in the Koran. The Islamic form of slaughtering animals or poultry, dhabiha, involves killing through a cut to the jugular vein, carotid artery and windpipe.
This type of slaughter is outlawed in the U.K .
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@keithprosser
I don't think you will find anything in the koran ......
It is what IS in the quran I have a problem with. And I think you mean rape gangs IN
Rochdale
Huddersfield
Telford
Oxford
Rotherham, to name a few, all have one thing in common.
Mā malakat aymānukum
The problemis that we in the west are woefully ignorant of Islam
Was is the AyatollahKhomeini ignorant of islam?
“But those who study Islamic Holy Warwill understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Thosewho know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(whosay this) are witless.”
AyatollahKhomeini;
But you understand perfectly what the quran teaches , don't you Keith? More even that the Ayatollah himself!
If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, THEN PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SHOW ME THE GOOD SIDE..
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@Grugore
Idiots claiming that Islam is a peaceful religion. Well, I'm here to set the record straight.
I have to say, you haven't done must setting straight of records, yourself. Why is that?
Posts op 1 – 65 not refuting Mr Richardson- 69 Muhammad murdering paedophile – 83 requests to stay on topic.
Simply posting a link of someone else's work The Story of Mohammed. Islam Unveiled( as interesting as it is) doesn't amount to YOU setting "the record straight" for the "Idiots Claiming that Islam is a peaceful religion".
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it is wrong to identify the source of the problem to some inherent or intrinsic property of Islam
In this case the "intrinsic and inherent source" of perpetual Jihad against the non believer happens to be the Quran.
If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side.
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@secularmerlin
That being said exactly what would you like to see happen in regards to Islam and muslims?
Your doing it again, lumping my opinions of ISLAM with muslims. This is not me doing this. It is you. And seeing that YOU have AGAIN lumped them together, I would say it is for MUSLIMS to reform ISLAM and the Quran. Not me. But you see they can't do this and wouldn't even try because according to MUSLIMS the quran is the perfect UNALTERABLE word of Allah as given to the perfect role model Muhammad so what is there to be "reformed".
For that matter what would you like to see done about other possibly violent beliefs?
One cannot do anything about an idea, even if it is a bad one. And this thread happens to be about ISLAM, not "other possibly violent beliefs". so stay on point as the OP has requested.
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@Castin
angels
Greek, simply means messenger or those who do the bidding of the higher lords. We can read often where the lord sends a messenger on one errand or another. A higher lord once sent A satan - one of many, - to torment Job with the strict instructions not to harm Job himself and all just to prove a point
legendary men from the past
Well if the scriptures are anything to go by, then yes they would be "men", ie we were created in their image, Jacob wrestled with one said to be a lord but also said to be a man. moses argued with his lord face to face, these lord/ beings done everything men do, they ate and rested and made war, but that said, these beings, for one reason or another were revered and looked up for something.
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@keithprosser
Which mosque did you learn Islam at?
What has that got to do with anything? Are you seriously suggesting one has to attend a mosque to understand Islam?
Like Didsbury mosque Manchester where a hate speech leaflet was issued to all followers of the Islamic faith and where the Manchester bomber Salman Abedi and others were known to have been "radicalised"? This mosque has a history of islamic extremism. At least 16 muslims living near this mosque have been imprisoned and or died fighting jihad with Islamic State.
66% of "British muslims" said the would not report on there "brothers" joining Islamic State, this goes back to the Quran saying anyone who sides with a non muslim will end up in "hells fire". Thousands of "British muslims" said suicide bombings is justified. This too is because of what is taught in the Quran 4.74. "So let those who trade the life of this world for the Hereafter fight in God's cause. Whoever fights in God's cause, whether he is killed or victorious, We will grant him a tremendous reward". And don't start with " just a few muslims" because this is pure falacey. The government report that there are at least between 26 and 30,000 known Muslim jihadis in Britain alone.
"UK home to up to 25,000 Islamist extremists who could pose threat, EU official warns"
Just recently Nadia Murad spoke to BBC's' Hard Talk telling that she was a victim of "rape jihad" , is she lying? Is she making it all up? . It is also known as "womb jihad" where muslims - that is to say more than just one muslim - believe it is their duty to "seed" non believer females. Have you forgotten the raped children Rotherham and Rochdale, already?
This is on our doorstep, but you seem to want to turn a blind eye and say it isn't happening. .
If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side.
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@Castin
Are you going off of "descendants of Anak"?
Anak also Anakim in hebrew. A few of these Babylonian/Mesopotamia lords are mentioned in the biblical scriptures , Bel/ Baal . Marduk/ Merodach son of the Mesopotamian serpent lord Ea /Enki
Deuteronomy 2:10-11
10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims;
11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites called them Emims.
Jeremiah 52:31 And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evil Merodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison.
These could be those referred to as "men of old" and "renown"?
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If your understanding of Islam is as bad as your understanding of Christianity there'd be little point.
OPINION!
And you of course understand Islam perfectly and better than anyone here don't you? I suspect that you are being contrary simply for the sake of it. It won't be the first time will it.
Why don't you start a thread yourself considering you hold this vile faith in your heart. Why don't you list all the pro's that you believe Islam has going for it.
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@PGA2.0
26 threads and one not included on Isalm (#27), the rest on Christianity.
Well if you’re so upset about all the attention Christianity is receiving then start your own thread on Islam. WHY HAVEN’T YOU DONE SO??? I will be happy to discuss that barbaric ideology with you.
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@secularmerlin
I know Muslims who are peaceful and gentle individuals who respect the beliefs of others no matter what their religion teaches.
I should imagine that most of us do by now, I am sure. But this doesn't make "Islam a religion of peace", does it?
Just for once I wish you apologist for Islam would tell us all what is so beautiful and right about Islam?
peaceful and gentle individuals who respect the beliefs of others
Indeed while in the minority.
I will say that it is wrong from my perspective to discriminate against individuals based on their beliefs
More misleading and deceit.. This is another typical ploy of apologists for Islam. Criticizing Islam is not discriminating against the individual. Islam is not a person, it is not a race no more than christianity is a person or race. So stop implying that I am attacking Muslims, it is old hat and doesn't work anymore.
But that said, I am sure it won't be .long before Muslims start demanding they are seen as one race this then will give a "definition" to the silly word "islamophobia" and every White Westerner who criticizes Islam, will be charged with a "hate crime", now that would be "racist" wouldn't it? ; we are not far off that now.
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@Mopac
from your link
AllMuslims Must Make Jihad
"Jihad isan obligation from Allah on every Muslim and cannot be ignored nor evaded.Allah has ascribed great importance to jihad and has made the reward of themartyrs and the fighters in His way a splendid one. Only those who have actedsimilarly and who have modeled themselves upon the martyrs in their performanceof jihad can join them in this reward. Furthermore, Allah has specificallyhonoured the Mujahideen {those who wage jihad} with certain exceptionalqualities, both spiritual and practical, to benefit them in this world and thenext. Their pure blood is a symbol of victory in this world and the mark ofsuccess and felicity in the world to come.
Those whocan only find excuses, however, have been warned of extremely dreadfulpunishments and Allah has described them with the most unfortunate of names. Hehas reprimanded them for their cowardice and lack of spirit, and castigatedthem for their weakness and truancy. In this world, they will be surrounded bydishonour and in the next they will be surrounded by the fire from which theyshall not escape though they may possess much wealth. The weaknesses ofabstention and evasion of jihad are regarded by Allah as one of the major sins,and one of the seven sins that guarantee failure.
Islam isconcerned with the question of jihad and the drafting and the mobilisation ofthe entire Umma (the global Muslim community) into one body to defend the rightcause with all its strength than any other ancient or modern system of living,whether religious or civil. The verses of the Qur'an and the Sunnah of Muhammad(PBUH {Peace Be Unto Him}) are overflowing with all these noble ideals and theysummon people in general (with the most eloquent expression and the clearestexposition) to jihad, to warfare, to the armed forces, and all means of landand sea fighting".
At this time the Brotherhood was estimated to have 2000 branches and well over 500,000 members or sympathizers in Egypt alone.
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@secularmerlin
All faith based beliefs can be dangerous. Nothing you have said contradicts this.
And I haven't tried to contradict anything. So trying to lead readers to believe I have, is deceitful.. I have made the distinction about the direct orders of Allah and his "perfect" prophet and those of Jesus the Christ.
Try letting this sink in and answer the question.
Ayatollah Khomeini;
“But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(who say this) are witless.”
Would you say that Ayatollah Khomeini who had devoted his entire life to the study of Islamic doctrine and became the spiritual and religious leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the foremost religious authority, was " woefully ignorant of Islam"?
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@Grugore
And mohammed was a murderer and a pedophile. Explains a lot. Doesn't it?
All minutia to the apologist I should imagine and they will come back with something NT "Christian" or OT "Hebrew" in some vain attempt to counter or equal those facts. Or simply tell lies. That is always an option for Muslims and Christians alike, and usually the first option in the case of muslims
This below is what the opologist have to swallow but they just hate facts from Islamic sources as as do Christians hate when the bleeding obvious is pointed out to them from New Testament Christian sources
“But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(who say this) are witless.”
Ayatollah Khomeini.
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@PGA2.0
While I do not condone the situation and now that I have been made aware of it I pray for her and her family, but the world is an unjust place for humanity fails to honor and obey God as He is.
Well, now you have done all the praying , what have you done about your Christian sisters predicament now that you have been made aware of it some time now?
Have you contacted any members of government? What have you said? What have they replied?
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@keithprosser
i recommend people treat what they read accordingly.
Indeed and they should accept this easily researched fact:
To be a Muslim means to accept that Muhammad was the perfect Human Being. His life is theexample for all Muslims to follow in every way possible. Of course not all Muslims are verysuccessful in this endeavour but the level of devoutness of a Muslim is judged by how closely hefollows Muhammad’s example and teachings.
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@Grugore
After reading most of these replies,
Try reading all the replies. I don't have to read The Story of Mohammed Islam Unveiled ( although I will when I have more time).
I notice the author Harry Richardson says much of his source material comes from "Ibn Ishaq" the most revered and trusted Muslim scholars of all time and whose work I have already suggested opologist like keith prosser reads.
When I began looking into this Islamic ideology Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad was the first work I read.
Interesting comment here from Ayatollah Khomeini;
“But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(who say this) are witless.”
I suppose the apologist here will tell us that Ayatollah Khomeini who had devoted his entire life to the study of Islamic doctrine and became the spiritual and religious leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the foremost religious authority, ' didn't know what he was talking about and was:
" woefully ignorant of Islam".
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@Grugore
I hear it all the time. Idiots claiming that Islam is a peaceful religion. Well, I'm here to set the record straight. Read this and learn the truth.
The Storyof Mohammed Islam Unveiled
by
Harry Richardson
4.13 · Rating details · 430 ratings · 60 reviews
The Story of Mohammed
Islam Unveiled
(Non-fiction full length book)
Do Non-Muslims Need to Know The Story of Mohammed?
Yes they do!!!
Mohammed’s story is the most incredible story never told. It is said that truthis stranger than fiction and honestly, NO-ONE could have made this up. Thereare battles, murders, intrigues, rapes, assassinations, torture, intimidation,and much much more. Along the way Mohammed invented Jihad, the most effectivesystem of conquest ever devised.
Mohammed’s life story is also the key which unlocks the complexities andconfusion of the Islamic religion itself. By understanding his story we quicklygain a clear insight into the Islamic religion and the incredible importancethis holds for our future.
This amazing book pulls no punches and brings the subject to life in a waywhich is both fascinating and informative. Rather than looking at Islam througha prism of Western (and by default, Christian) perspective, it takes Islamapart and explains the Islamic perspective itself.
In doing so it illuminates the stark contrasts between Western and Islamicethics and beliefs in clear and simple language which makes it a delight toread. There are no apologies, no excuses and no pretending. This is not Islamas we want it to be, this is Islam as it really is, warts and all. Every pageis packed with important, but little known facts and key passages from Islam’sholy books. These are carefully arranged and then cemented into place withlogical and insightful commentary which reveals the true picture, as Islamicscholars have always known it. This is the information which is never reportedby the mainstream and this book will have you turning pages right to the veryend.
The reader is then left with an entirely new understanding of issues such asterrorism, the treatment of women, immigration and poverty. Inexplicableactions suddenly begin to make perfect sense. Seemingly insane or randombehaviour fits perfectly into a well thought out and wildly successfulstrategy. By the end, the reader is hit with a real sense of the vitalimportance of this information.
Millions of people, both Muslims and non Muslims are tragically affected byaspects of Islam. More than 95% of all wars and armed conflict today involveMuslims. Muslims also suffer some of the highest rates of poverty, disease,hunger, illiteracy, environmental degradation and many more crippling disadvantages.
Islam is also increasingly affecting the Western World and not just throughterrorism. Muslims make up 5% of the population of Denmark and yet they areestimated to absorb 50% of that countries welfare budget. Other Westerncountries face similar challenges.
These problems all have their roots in Islam. The good news is that they canall be fixed. By tackling the subject head on, this book leaves us with theknowledge and understanding to address these problems with logical and wellthought out solutions rather than hiding behind fine sounding, politicallycorrect assumptions which have no basis in fact.
Pat Fraser described it as follows:
“A hard hitting book confronting a world epidemic. Using language for all agesand levels of education, the author has clearly illustrated the history andradical concepts behind one of the world’s largest and most influentialreligions. Written free from bias or personal agenda, it is a must read book totruly gain an understanding into the darker sides of this belief and thenegative effects they have had on countries around the globe. If for greaterunderstanding or just personal interest, this is definitely worth yourtime”.
Ishiro Yamamoto called this “A truly informative and well researched work thatshould be read by all those who wish to know the real truth”.
by
Harry Richardson
The Story of Mohammed
Islam Unveiled
(Non-fiction full length book)
Do Non-Muslims Need to Know The Story of Mohammed?
Yes they do!!!
Mohammed’s story is the most incredible story never told. It is said that truthis stranger than fiction and honestly, NO-ONE could have made this up. Thereare battles, murders, intrigues, rapes, assassinations, torture, intimidation,and much much more. Along the way Mohammed invented Jihad, the most effectivesystem of conquest ever devised.
Mohammed’s life story is also the key which unlocks the complexities andconfusion of the Islamic religion itself. By understanding his story we quicklygain a clear insight into the Islamic religion and the incredible importancethis holds for our future.
This amazing book pulls no punches and brings the subject to life in a waywhich is both fascinating and informative. Rather than looking at Islam througha prism of Western (and by default, Christian) perspective, it takes Islamapart and explains the Islamic perspective itself.
In doing so it illuminates the stark contrasts between Western and Islamicethics and beliefs in clear and simple language which makes it a delight toread. There are no apologies, no excuses and no pretending. This is not Islamas we want it to be, this is Islam as it really is, warts and all. Every pageis packed with important, but little known facts and key passages from Islam’sholy books. These are carefully arranged and then cemented into place withlogical and insightful commentary which reveals the true picture, as Islamicscholars have always known it. This is the information which is never reportedby the mainstream and this book will have you turning pages right to the veryend.
The reader is then left with an entirely new understanding of issues such asterrorism, the treatment of women, immigration and poverty. Inexplicableactions suddenly begin to make perfect sense. Seemingly insane or randombehaviour fits perfectly into a well thought out and wildly successfulstrategy. By the end, the reader is hit with a real sense of the vitalimportance of this information.
Millions of people, both Muslims and non Muslims are tragically affected byaspects of Islam. More than 95% of all wars and armed conflict today involveMuslims. Muslims also suffer some of the highest rates of poverty, disease,hunger, illiteracy, environmental degradation and many more crippling disadvantages.
Islam is also increasingly affecting the Western World and not just throughterrorism. Muslims make up 5% of the population of Denmark and yet they areestimated to absorb 50% of that countries welfare budget. Other Westerncountries face similar challenges.
These problems all have their roots in Islam. The good news is that they canall be fixed. By tackling the subject head on, this book leaves us with theknowledge and understanding to address these problems with logical and wellthought out solutions rather than hiding behind fine sounding, politicallycorrect assumptions which have no basis in fact.
Pat Fraser described it as follows:
“A hard hitting book confronting a world epidemic. Using language for all agesand levels of education, the author has clearly illustrated the history andradical concepts behind one of the world’s largest and most influentialreligions. Written free from bias or personal agenda, it is a must read book totruly gain an understanding into the darker sides of this belief and thenegative effects they have had on countries around the globe. If for greaterunderstanding or just personal interest, this is definitely worth yourtime”.
Ishiro Yamamoto called this “A truly informative and well researched work thatshould be read by all those who wish to know the real truth”.
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@secularmerlin
Firstly psalms 137:9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks
Yes 137:9 is absolutely disgraceful and should be condemned. What's your point? This is from the Hebrew scripture it has absolutely no bearing on the situation today in ISRAEL and you, just like Keith Prosser are wasting your time trying to contextualise it with today's ISLAMIC barbarity You're clutching at straws in defence of an vile and vicious ideology that has one single purpose and makes absolutely no secret of it aim.
Secondly it hardly matters what the new testament says since Jesus specifically states that he did not come to change a dot or letter of the (old testament) laws (Mathew 5:18) so all the violence commanded and condoned by Yahweh carries over.
Stop it. 1st, you do not even know which "laws" Jesus was referring to . 2nd how many laws were "carried over" that are carried out by Christians today on the strict instruction of Jesus the Christ as are the instructions and laws laid down by the Quran and the Sunnah to this day? Do Christians stone adulterers today as do muslims in the name of their religion.?
Lastly it doesn't matter what a faith based system actually teaches. Even if the belief is all about sunshine and rainbows it still carries the potential to be used as a justification for doing harm to the "nonbeliever" and christianity, which has observably resulted in human atrocities, is no exception to the rule.
I agree. There have been atrocities committed by Christians, I have already said so. But show me where in the New Testament does the Christ himself instruct his followers to go out into the world to rape and maim and murder IN HIS NAME anyone for not believing in him as does the Quran? You have failed already to show me this evidence.
This does not mean however that I am singling christianity out.
No , it is you trying to say that these religions are exactly the same when they are clearly not. Muslims are taught to hate non believers. This is a fact. this is not to say that they all do.
Recently, the great scholar, Shaykh Saalih ibn Fowzaan al-Fowzaan (may Allaah preserve him) was asked:
"What is the ruling on rejecting the idea of hatred for the sake of Allaah and claiming that it is not from Islam? Is a person"s Islaam valid if he does not hate the Jews and Christians"?
The Islamic scholar responded:
"Walaa" and baraa" (the islamic system of loyalty) is a must. (It is) disallegiance with the enemies of Allaah (the disbelievers)and loyalty to the allies of Allaah. Walaa" and baraa" means to have hatred, declaring oneself free of them (the disbelievers) and their religion, this is baraa".
"Indeed you have a good example in Ibraaheem (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: We are free of you and all that you worship beside Allaah"" [Meaning of Quran 60:4]
"Indeed you have a good example in Ibraaheem (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: We are free of you and all that you worship beside Allaah"" [Meaning of Quran 60:4]
This was declaring themselves free of unbelievers and their idols and their objects of worship.
""We are free of you and all that you worship beside Allaah. We have disbelieved in you (i.e. your religion), and there shall be enmity and hatred between us forever, unless you believe in Allaah alone." [Meaning of Quran 60:4]
"Thus it is not permissible to love the disbelievers. Whoever takes them as allies, Allaah, the Mighty and Most High", has said:
"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and Christians as allies! They are allies of one another. Whoever takes them as allies is indeed from them. Verily Allaah does not guide people who are oppressive." [Meaning of Quran 5:51]
"The issue is very serious. Walaa" (loyalty) and baraa" (disallegiance) are from the essential foundations of this Religion: Islaam. The religion (of a person) is not valid without both of them".
The shaykh"s answer given on 23/8/2013 in Jeddah.
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@keithprosser
But I don't think the best way forward.
What do you mean by " the best way forward" ?
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@Mopac
Now, even if you were to give it that credit, Islam is utterly incompatable with western society, which is decadent, pagan, and abominably offensive to the Islamic mindset. It is very hard to detach Islam from government.
Here here
I believe my religion is superior.
Oh dear. And you wonder why there are "religious" wars. 'my god is bigger than your god'
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@secularmerlin
There is no religion of peace any more than there is a political system of peace
Christianity does not teach violence. And you cannot show a single verse in the New Testament where it does? Nowhere will you find a single verse in the NT where the Christ orders his followers to go out into the world and rape and murder IN HIS NAME as does the Quran.
I know there have been " Christian religious wars" but not fought on the orders of Jesus the Christ.
And it is pointless trying to even mention the Hebrew/Israelite wars, they have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity and as I have already mentioned , they no longer stone adulterous women or burn homosexuals in Israel today. No, they have actually moved with the times, whereas Islam is still suck in the past of 1400 years ago and it cannot be reformed.
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@keithprosser
32When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.” 36The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.I wouldn't blame anyone who concluded it must be a barbarous religion that kills someone merely for gathering firewood on the wrong day.
This is simply another way of you apologising for Islam.
Yes Keith and only yesterday they put a man against a wall in Israel and ordered that "all the congregation" should each fire one bullet a piece into this a man for simply making his bed on the sabbath!!
You really are scraping the barrel and clutching at straws by trying to contextualise the ancient biblical text with this barbaric Islamic ideology, where to this very day they still stone people in accordance with their so called "religion".
A very recent case in point is Asia Bibi, a Christian who was sentenced to death for blasphemy and then reprieved, but this hasn't stopped the THOUSANDS of muslims in Pakistan screaming for her head, has it?
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@Plisken
Islamis apparently opposed to nuclear proliferation, so it's got that going for it.
I believe next to Indonesia the next biggest Muslimpopulations are Pakistan and then India. They are both nuclear powers. Let’s hopethe fanatical adherents to Islam never get their hands on them.
Who can forget this stamen made by Pakistani PresidentZulfiqar Ali Bhutto?:
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@IlDiavolo
As if we didn't know it. Islam is a religion of war.
And oppression, domination and submission.
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@keithprosser
Really? I honestly hope to avoid having a firing line.
Yes Keith, Really.
Because I belive it to be the only way apologist for this indefensible barbaric ideology, like you, will never face up to and understand the fact that you will have no place in this world if these muslim fanatics ever achieve what they set out to do, some 1400 years ago. I won't bother with the history lesson because you will simply ignore those historical facts or maybe even apologise for them..
So before you start accusing others of being :
woefully ignorant of Islam
You should read up on it yourself. Can I suggest you start here : The Biography of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad, by Muḥammad ibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār was an Arab Muslim historian and hagiographer.
And notice, it is the ISLAMIC Prophet not the "ISLAM - IST" Prophet ,Muhammad.
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@keithprosser
The problem is that wein the west are woefully ignorant of Islam
You speak for yourself. There are many people who were at one time ignorant of this barbaric ideology know as Islam. But not anymore. Since the deaths 3,000 civilians murdered by Muslims fighting the "cause" of Islam, people have gone and found out for themselves what this Islamic ideology is all about and it can all be weighed up with one single verse from this barbaric book the Quran:
Quran 8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
See that? this is Jihad and it is perpetual war against the non believer until " religion, all of it, is for Allah". It is about the Islamisation of the world and by the sword if necessary. You can deny this fact if you choose but it won't change the goal of Islam
.....Islamophobia.....islamophobia....
Congratulations! You managed to squeeze in this newly invented non word. There was ANOTHER Islamic attack in France just a day ago carried out by an adherent to the so called " religion of peace". Those people of Strasbourg now have a reason to rationally fear Islam. Are those 20-30 000 muslim jihadis on the government watch list UK to be ignored and not feared?
Are the government spreading "hate and fear and islamophobia" when they tell us to " run, hide and tell"?
How many times do people need it pointing out: a phobia is an IRRATIONAL fear or dread about something.
phobia/ˈfəʊbɪə/
noun
1. an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
So if you do read thelinked pdf, remember it is written by a hostile witness who wants to inflame and spread anti-isamic feelings
I would suppose anyone who points out the horrors of this faith followed and practiced by millions, isto you an “islamophobe” racist bigot" intending to “spread hatred and division, and anti-islamic feelings ”. I have heard it all before and it simply doesn’t wash anymore.
Islam as it is practiced by a billion non-terrorists in a wide variety of cultures across the world.
This sounds like that old chestnut “not all Muslims” argument.I have heard that one often too. Are all those thousands of Pakistani "non terrorist" muslims screaming the head of the Christian woman Asia Bibi for alleged blasphemy, good practicing Muslims? Away with your "not all muslims" rhetoric, they the vast majority of muslims will fall on the right side when and if push comes to shove and I honestly hope you are the first in the firing line just to see how wrong you have been and are with your continued apologetics..
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This is actually another fascinating question with an incredible variety of answers.
Yes when one answer is debunked and contradicted with evidence, christians simply change its meaning and come up with another.
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@Mopac
Yet it is written,O.K. Simply question. Where is it written? Jesus used this enigmatic phrase often, but we are never told " where" exactly "it is written" .
So you're saying, Mopac , that when Jesus says , "it is written", he is referring to a book that hadn't even been compiled and written..
.
You really are uneducated aren't you? Jesus never once tells us where "it" or anything else "is written". You clown!
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Who are your "gods"? Witch. And where do they come from and where do the y reside?. In your own time luvvy
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@Mopac
My position has and always has been that most people are atheists because they don't know any better.
Any better than what?
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@Mopac
Yet it is written,
O.K. Simply question. Where is it written? Jesus used this enigmatic phrase often, but we are never told " where" exactly "it is written" .
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@rosends
So you are saying that you don't believe The Word of God? I thought you said you were Jewish? Or am I mistaken in assuming that you are a Jew who believes in God?I believe that you and I have different understandings of the "Word of God". Thinking that I don't believe in something because I don't accept your understanding of it is a fallacious conflation.
Well said that man!! 10+
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@Goldtop
and was wearing some Egyptian sandals
Yes these girls at the well, spotted the Made in Egypt tag written in hieroglyphs . Yes, a dead giveaway that was.
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Polytheist-Witch WROTE:#92Muslims have their own text and are not Christians. Why should their beliefs effect a Christian?
Try reading the Quran Witch.
Quran 3:56 - "As to those who reject faith,I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, norwill they have anyone to help."
Quran 3:151 - We will cast terror intothe hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah ofwhich He had not sent down [any]
Quran 5:33 –unless, those who wage war against Allah and HisMessenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption/mischief is none but thatthey be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off fromopposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them adisgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.
Quran 51 - You, whohave believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [infact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – thenindeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
Quran 8:12 - "Iwill cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike offtheir heads and strike off every fingertip of them".
Quran 8:39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
Quran 8:60 - And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds ofwar by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and othersbesides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever youspend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not bewronged.
Quran 8:67 - It isnot for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [uponAllah 's enemies] in the land.
Surah 9:5 - "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush".
Quran 9:29 - Fight those who donot believe in Allah or in the Last Day andwho do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawfuland who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given theScripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah (jizyah = tax levied by Muslim on non- - believers or be killed onrefusal to pay) willingly while they are humbled.
Quran 9:30 - The Jewssay, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "TheMessiah is the son of Allah." That is their statement from their mouths;they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allahdestroy them; how are they deluded?
Quran 9:123 - You who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of thedisbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with therighteous.
APOSTASY: Bukhari : 9.84.57. - ISLAMAND APOSTASY" Prophet Muhammad said: Whoever changed his Islamic religion,then kill him."
Quran 4:89 - They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike.So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause ofAllah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you findthem and take not from among them any ally or helper.
Quran 8:60 - And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds ofwar by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and othersbesides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever youspend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not bewronged.
Surah 9:5 - "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush".
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If you were humble, you would ask the rightful interpreters of scripture to teach you about it.Instead, you lean on your own understanding.
I do. Because I haven't seen or heard any logical or rational explanations for anything I have raised concerning these unreliable, ambiguous, half stories that make no sense.
The church simply doesn't believe the things you say,
So? Am I supposed to be wounded and hurt because "the church" doesn't believe me? LISTEN!, I don't give a flying fig whether " the church" believes me or not. It is their job to convince me contrary to what I believe, you clown , if they care too. They haven't managed that yet, because I answer back and question and investigate. I wouldn't just sit there and soak it all up and accept it all as "gospel truth". And you have no chance of doing so while you never even try to answer my queries.
and it is our scripture, not yours.
Grow up
You are arrogant if you think you can overthrow 2000 years of tradition.
Behave yourself. These unreliable, ambiguous, half stories "overthrow" and contradict themselves every other verse. This is where you have to then totally rely on faith and the words of your leaders <<<<<< see that word - to accept them as truth. They are NOT TRUTH?
So you tell me, after OVER "2000 years" have you worked out how Jesus turned water into wine? NO YOU HAVEN'T, HAVE you clown? and neither have those clown elders have they?
Your words are backed with no authority.
That's debatable, and depends on what you recognise as "authority". I know I am better read in these scriptures than you are or ever will be.. And many things that I belive are backed up by academicis, scholars and extremely well educated authors. Unlike you, who relies on ever changing interpretations of words and whole verses in the scriptures where lies and deceit have become the norm in trying to explain away these unreliable, ambiguous, half stories
You are like a little yappy chihuahua.
Try listening to yourself you clown.
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But I've recently been reminded that the Bible also refers to nephilim as "giants", and that the original Hebrew word, nefilim, apparently means "the fallen ones".
I believe you are referring to yet another, enigmatic, anomalous and ambiguous half story that is left in mid-air.
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.Genesis 6:4 KJV
Other bibles use the word "nephilim" such as:
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.Genesis 6:4 ESV
Are the nephilim "the sons of god" or are they "offspring" of the sons of god who are the "mighty men of old, men of renown".
"Giant" and "men of renown" could simply mean status and not stature? It could mean that they were highly intelligent beings?
This is a bit more to the story:
When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. Then the Lord said, "My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.
— Genesis 6:1–4, N R S V
This is interesting as it mentions the "nephilim" as the descendants of Mesopotamian lord/ gods known as the Anunnaki. Are these the "men of old" and the "men of renown" that they are speaking of?
The Lord said to Moses, "Send men to spy out the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the Israelites" ... So they went up and spied out the land ... And they told him: "... Yet the people who live in the land are strong, and the towns are fortified and very large; and besides, we saw the descendants of Anak there." ... So they brought to the Israelites an unfavorable report of the land that they had spied out, saying, "The land that we have gone through as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people that we saw in it are of great size. There we saw the Nephilim (the Anakites come from the Nephilim); and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them."
— Numbers 13:1–2; 21; 27–28; 32–33. N R S V.
As can bee seen , here they make it clear that these being are of some size.
I mentioned on another thread that these Mesopotamian Lords didn't seem particular who they mated with. And maybe this is why they were known as "fallen".
And the book of Enoch goes into more detail telling us that some of these "fallen" were imprisoned for what was considered taboo.
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@Goldtop
Flat earth is indeed a religious worldview, it is the way theists, usually Christians, are defying science and what science has discovered about the world around us. It has little to do with the shape of earth and everything to do with bringing the dark ages back.
Yet there own scriptures make it clear:
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth", Isaiah 40:22
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When the time comes that atheist outnumber theists in the West religion will be banned an all theists killed.
It is extremely difficult to "ban" or even "kill" and idea ,Witch. I would have thought you would have understood that.
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@Goldtop
And don't forget of course that he was introduced to the Princesses father - none other than the Pharaoh himself - as her fully grown son , named Moses who he had never met, made a Prince and not a single question asked about who his real parents were or even who his father was?
I believe the bible writers have taken the story of a minor Egyptian Prince, maybe the offspring of a Pharaoh and a second "minor" wife, perhaps a Hebrew slave woman and "adopted" him as their saviour and liberator. Moses does have a lot in common with the heretic Pharaoh Akhenaten.
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Exodus 6: 16 - 20 suggests that the parents of Moses were called Amram and Jochebed, the thing here though is that the same passage tells us that, Amram was the grandson of Joseph's' brother Levi, which would appear to be well over two centuries too early to have any connection to the historical Moses after he is rescued from the river by the Egyptian Princess who no one questioned whatsoever about this fully grown son that she had "adopted" Exodus 2:10.
Would an Egyptian Princess, the most valuable members of Egyptian royalty (all heirs came via the matrilineal line)actually have been allowed to "adopt" an offspring of Hebrew !slaves"? My guess is no.
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I put the word "grand" in brackets.
From Reuel, the son of Esau Genesis 36:4 to his descendant Jethro, lord of Midian are many many generations later. Nearly 400 years worth. That is a serious mistake to make and a lot of biblical history skimmed over. which wouldn't be the first time the biblical scribes have done this, would it.
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@rosends
That was Reu'el's (Jethro's) [grand] daughters reporting back in Midian. They would not have known any better because the man was an absolute stranger dressed as an Egyptian.
No surprises there then. I knew someone would jump on the prosser band wagon. See my response above post #8
And where is your evidence for Reuel and Jethro being one and the same person?
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As is often the case, you misquote a contextBrother in this context has a specific meaning
Yes alway the same monotonous boring, nauseating excuse with you lot. It is always some else who doesn't understand the context and alway someone else who takes it all out of context.
not a sibling brother - but someone who is a believer.
No specific mention of believers or non believers in that verse. So as per usual you are trying to add what simply isn't there.
Matthew 5:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
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@PGA2.0
Thank you for your trouble! I am going to take a week or so and examine your case.
Which you will reject at the first available opportunity.
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